Hi Russ,

I'm sorry you're struggling like this. The unshakeable head fog sounds horrible. I don't know anything really about the term or the state, but it's clearly really frustrating you. I wonder if it's helpful to get the focus off the term, and onto what you *have* learned in your time in therapy. Are there insights you have gained about yourself so far? Do they help you see how and why you feel the things you feel, or do things the way you do? Do they open up other possibilities for ways to feel or act?

Maybe it would help to start cataloguing that stuff - but I'm not sure, I'm not sure if I could do that for myself. Maybe I'll try too!

Hi Jones,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I've learned some things about myself in therapy, but my frustration with how I actually feel on a day-to-day basis overshadows any good feeling about progress I've made or insights I've gained.

I have the idea in my mind that progress in therapy should be reflected proportionately to how I actually feel physically and emotionally. New insight and understanding should = feeling better, less head fog. My T seems to feel that this is not necessarily always the case. To me, it seems like a reasonable and logical assumption.

This then leads to incredible anger because what is the point of therapy if it doesn't result in an improvement in one's health? I had an expectation that hard work in therapy would lead somewhere, and I guess I feel cheated by the experience somehow because I still feel crappy much of time.

Russ

Hey Russ,

Yeah, I'd be angry too with all that investment and little progress.

Do you mind if I go out on a limb here? I don't really know your situation, how this works or where I got the information - but I want to tell you a little snippet that changed things a bit for me and that your situation brings to mind. I read somewhere on the web about the association between thought patterns and emotional response. The article said it generally took a certain amount of time - a minute or so, maybe - of thinking about a particular topic before the emotional response really kicked in. So if you spend a minute thinking consistently about a topic, you're likely to get the emotional response connected with that topic.

Now as a general rule I don't buy the "positive thinking" stuff because I find it too easy to run myself ragged trying to outrun negative thoughts. BUT I do find it useful to know I have a choice in certain instances about whether I stay with something and let the emotion come up, or whether I move my thoughts onto something else. If a topic feels exhausted to me, for example, I sometimes now feel ok about just moving on and looking for insight later.

The reason i think about this in relation to you is that I notice you are really working hard at the hard stuff, looking for the insights, and it almost seems like that is crowding out the stuff that could start to give you a different physiological experience (the little indicators of progress & change, for example). I guess I suggested listing stuff as a way of giving your mind a chance to stay for a little while with things that have some positive value for you. It's not that those things will cancel out the pain, but maybe they are the seeds of something different.

J

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
The reason i think about this in relation to you is that I notice you are really working hard at the hard stuff, looking for the insights, and it almost seems like that is crowding out the stuff that could start to give you a different physiological experience (the little indicators of progress & change, for example). I guess I suggested listing stuff as a way of giving your mind a chance to stay for a little while with things that have some positive value for you. It's not that those things will cancel out the pain, but maybe they are the seeds of something different.
J

Jones,

You're absolutely right. I tend to skip over important things when I feel especially bad. The truth is, I have changed. I cry easily now when before May of 2008 I didn't cry for about 20 years. I have feelings about my parents that I never knew I had. I'm very sensitive toward cruelty and mean spiritedness.

But, I am also very impatient. I want to feel better now, and feeling better is my first priority. This tends to lend itself to skipping over the work involved in getting to a better place.

I also don't like it when my T speaks the truth when it's not convenient for me or clashes with my beliefs. And I hate the seemingly endless process of therapy.

So yes. I could be doing some things differently, including what you suggested.

Thanks very much.

Russ

Hi Blackbird,

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with your P that the brain fog can be a kind of defence. For me, I think it's actually a kind of anxiety, which could be a defence and/or a fear response.

As I said, while I'm always somewhere on the "feeling awful" spectrum, it does vary. And the fog certainly escalates in response to certain things, and these things are 99.9% around relationships where anger and/or guilt is stirred up.

I have to say that the event that triggered this entire experience almost two years ago was the break-up of a relationship. I ended a romance with someone who turned out to mean more to me than I could ever have imagined. Six weeks after we broke up, we were playing tennis one day after work. She was having a bad day and was feeling really down. I felt responsible for her sadness, and I also felt angry about feeling responsible. Of course, I didn't really let myself register any of this. Instead, I just felt vaguely annoyed.

That night, at 3am, I woke up with the worst anxiety attack I've ever had, and that was the start of it all. One thing I've learned is this: I have a terrible fear of the disappointment and disapproval of the important women in my life (my mother and this friend). I find it surprising, but I guess it's possible that this is something that may be powerful enough to keep me locked in this awful feeling state for so long.

Anyway, thanks again for you reply.

Russ

Hi Russ,
It's really good to hear from you, as always, but I'm sorry to hear you're still sounding so stuck. I have definitely struggled with those fogs on and off through the years, but there was also a sense of progress and changing how I handled my relationships (in a chaotic, three steps forward, two steps back, let's run over the same territory 50 times, oh my God what's wrong with me, how much therapy can just one woman need, what in the world are they saying to the insurance company that they've been willing to shell out all this money kind of way. )

What you're describing sounds like high activation to me. When my stuff gets triggered, I tend to try really hard to not be there (disassociation was a major defense I used as a child, I've spent YEARS in therapy dealing with it). And when I'm doing that I have a hard time taking anything in.

As far as the passive goes, I'm not sure, I don't really see it but your P knows you a lot better than I do. The only thing I really have to offer was my coming to grips with the fact that I spent a LONG time feeling like I didn't create the mess, so I shouldn't have to clean it up. I eventually realized that I was the only one could, whether or not it was fair that I had too. There was a lot of rage involved in accepting that because it really isn't fair. But I was the only one suffering from my insistence on "fairness" cause I was the one sitting in the middle of the mess. It really sucks that we weren't taken care of the way we should have been and now we have to learn to take care of ourselves WITHOUT going through having someone else do it. It may be that you're having a tough time getting past that and aren't really willing to make any changes because deep down inside you believe you shouldn't have to. PLEASE take this with a grain of salt, it was just the only thing that popped up inside me when I read your post which means I could be WAY off base and it doesn't apply for you. But I hear clearly that you want to find the truth even if it's painful so I offer it in the hope that it might be of some help.

I do admire your tenaciousness in the face of this.

AG

Hi AG!

You're insights are always great, but this was almost creepy, it was so right on the money. Your description of the chaotic progress very much applies to me. I mean, there IS progress, but I'm never, ever satisfied with it. It's never enough, so I tend to gloss over it completely because, even on my 'good' days, I still don't have the taste and texture of the experience of life that I used to have, and that makes me really angry.

I totally relate to the 'how much therapy does one person need' feeling. This will make you laugh, but this is how I look at it: Ok, I'm doing the work, it's been almost two years of therapy, so where is my 'spontaneous flash of insight that I immediately integrate into my mind and experience an immediate relief of all symptoms and burst into health' moment? It's THIS that my T calls passive dependent. It's the idea that I'm waiting for these thing to COME to me, as opposed to going and getting them myself.

quote:

The only thing I really have to offer was my coming to grips with the fact that I spent a LONG time feeling like I didn't create the mess, so I shouldn't have to clean it up. I eventually realized that I was the only one could, whether or not it was fair that I had too. There was a lot of rage involved in accepting that because it really isn't fair. But I was the only one suffering from my insistence on "fairness" cause I was the one sitting in the middle of the mess...It may be that you're having a tough time getting past that and aren't really willing to make any changes because deep down inside you believe you shouldn't have to.

This is creepy. I mean seriously. This is me like you can't believe.

"This whole mess ISN'T F-ING FAIR!!! I DON'T DESERVE THIS SHIT!!! I HATE MY LIFE!!! I CAN'T LIVE LIKE THIS!!! I JUST WANT TO FEEL BETTER!!!"

Yep, that's me. My sense of outrage and injustice over this is huge, and this is yet another thing that contributes to my idea that someone else needs to fix it, not me, and THAT is passive dependence, according to my T. And this idea that it's someone else's mess to clean up is ALL over my dream life. I won't go into it, but let's say there's been a lot of un-flushed toilets in my dreams, with me just standing there looking at it.

Thanks, AG. You rule.
Russ

Hi Russ... Just wanted to drop in and say it's nice to hear from you although I'm really sorry it's because you are struggling so much in therapy. My therapy road of late has been fraught with large bumps and potholes too.

I just really wanted to add to what AG said about being upset that someone else made this huge f'ing mess and now you are sitting in the middle of it and having to clean it up with no help, except maybe that of your T. What I wanted to say was that realizing this... that no one took care of you and now you have to deal with it all yourself, this needs to be mourned and grieved. It's a huge loss in your life that your needs were not met and it can't be fixed/changed the way you would like it to be and so perhaps you feel that since it can't be the way you want it to be you are feeling paralyzed by it.

I sometimes get stuck because I'm angry that things were not they way they "should" have been in my childhood and I lost knowing what it would be like to feel secure, confident and able to regulate my emotions. And coming to terms with the fact that this was DONE to me, not the way I was born (as if with some handicap) makes me feel so overwhelmed I just shut down and can't do any real therapy work. I do mourn in stops and starts and talk about this with my T but it's a slow meandering process which can make me feel frustrated at times until my T reminds me that therapy is not linear and I can only go as fast as I can go.

It can actually be harmful to progress too fast in case your mind can't handle it.

I just wanted to add my thoughts and I'm not sure if this applies to you. I do want you to know that I'm glad you posted and I hope this feeling will pass and you will find yourself making some progress in coming out of that fog.

Best,
TN

Hi Russ,
Indeed AG does rock. These are her words and they ring true for me as a reason for the fog.

quote:

What you're describing sounds like high activation to me. When my stuff gets triggered, I tend to try really hard to not be there (disassociation was a major defense I used as a child. And when I'm doing that I have a hard time taking anything in.

Sorry you are having such a hard time. I too suffer from anxiety and sometimes when I am triggered, the confused thinking- the fog descends. This makes me angry because I can't figure out what's going on because I can't think. If I can't think- I can't feel anything either- this is where the numbing comes in. What helps me is calling my T- listening to him intently and trusting his message. The trusting part was a long time in coming though.
Anyway I hope there is something useful in this for you. Hang in there and keep "venting". This is the perfect place for it. And AG- you really do Rock!

Hi Russ...

Good to read you again. It sounds like you are in a stuck kind of place. You are in analysis...right? I hope I am remembering that correctly. If I am incorrect...then just ignore this post. Analysts work much differently than therapists of other disciplines. At least that is what I am experiencing. I think you just have to go in and talk and talk and talk....and eventually they start to recognize your patterned thinking. It seems they are unwilling to comment much on what they are thinking until you have repeated your patterns long enough for them to be assessed. That includes all dream content and other stuff that you ramble on about. Moments of "brain fog"...what you say during that time, what caused you to retreat to a state of fog...all the permutations and meanings of all words that have double meanings...etc...etc...all symbolic and metaphoric content. It's really a study of "how" you think...the content of what you say is not always as important as "how" you say it. Yes...the content is important...everything is taken into consideration in this process...but the emotion is usually revealed in how you relay your thoughts.

The unconscious reveals itself in it's own time and the way is unique to each individual. Right and wrong do not have any relevance in analysis...but your perception of what is right and wrong does. You may find that the tiniest, remark may later be the source of your deepest pain. And of course...there is the transference and counter-transference thing. Analysts don't like to point out your transference's....and will very rarely talk about their counter-transference.
Actually analysts rarely talk at all...they say it limits your ability to make your own associations...and connections. If they are talking then you are making connections to their associations and not your own....or something like that... lol... I think their creedo goes something like this. "An answer is a phantasy wasted." It's a confusing and frustrating way to try to figure things out...but I have been told that for some people it is the best way to discover your authentic self and make the most lasting changes, to restructure the way you think and cope with your feelings. Sort of your chance for a "do over."

Even physical problems that are seemingly unrelated to therapy start to reflect psychological underpinnings. Analysis is very weird and I am hoping that eventually I will get some feedback on my efforts...but I know that I cannot expect it yet. My T is extremely reluctant to even answer a simple and reasonable question.

I think what your T might be saying, in regard to "passive dependence" is that you may tend to let your life dictate your decisions, or that you allow others to make decisions for you...or that you are in some way asking him to decide for you. Maybe he is saying that if you were to take a step to be more pro-active, and 'steer your own boat'...so to speak...you might feel like you have more control over your life.
That is to say: "Go ahead and flush that toilet!" *chuckling* I've had those dreams too...except they involve the entire bathroom...not just the toilet...and I'm standing in the middle of it.
I may not have created the mess...but somehow I have found myself standing in it. Although I don't think I am the one that is going to clean it up. I find myself pretty resistant to that thought.
My thought behind that goes like this. "Cleaning it up" tends to infer to me that I must fix my family...fix the dysfunction...fix it..repair it...soothe it...whatever. And that is not something I am capable of doing.
In truth...I resent the fact that I still feel like I "should" fix it...or that it is somehow my fault because I am in the middle of it.
However, I do have to find my way out of it...and it has still tainted my life. I'm not sure how much scrubbing and cleaning it takes to remove those stains...or if it's even possible.

This is one of my big problems...I tend to deal with stuff as it comes at me when it might be a better choice to deal with my stuff before it's "in my face!" and totally overwhelming. I have not had much success with that yet...but I'm working on it.....still....and forever...it seems. *sigh*

Analysis is a long-term treatment and I feel impatient with it nearly every day. I have also experienced it as a bit sadistic, voyeuristic, and depriving. It is also outrageous and unjust, but that is exactly what they are trying to help you discover.
I will not get what I ask for from my T...in fact I usually get exactly the opposite. It is her way of deepening and intensifying the transference and really holding my heels to the fire...she wants me to stay in contact with that fire because although it may burn...it also sustains. We cannot live without it.

No one can tell you what your truth is, how can anyone else possibly know that? And if they did try...you probably would not believe them. It is something you have to discover for yourself. THAT IS WHAT SUCKS THE MOST! But when you really...really think about it...it's easy to see the reality of it.
Transference is a false interaction...but if we can see what is false...then eventually we must be able to discern what is true and real for ourselves. I think....hmmmmm...

Sometimes it's all I can do to tolerate it. Most of the time I just want to scream. I haven't tried that yet...but who knows...maybe that's exactly what I need to do. I'm not sure how my T would deal with it...but I don't want to care about that. It's her job. I just hope that someday she realizes that she is actually going to have to talk to me again.
I say again...because I did not start out in analysis. When I started seeing her it was psycho-dynamic. I matriculated to analysis. So the switch has been difficult for me. I was kinda used to her actually talking to me from time to time...but now she just listens. Hmmmm....maybe she is just bored with me.

Anyway...it's good to see you back on the boards. I am sorry you are feeling the way you are...I can really relate to your frustration and angst.

I think this kind of sums up the analytical process.

"Old paint on canvas, as it ages, sometimes becomes transparent. When that happens it is possible, in some pictures, to see the original lines: a tree will show through a woman's dress, a child makes way for a dog, a large boat is no longer on an open sea. That is called pentimento because the painter "repented," changed his mind. Perhaps it would be as well to say that the old conception, replaced by a later choice, is a way of seeing and then seeing again. ~Lillian Hellman~

I'll be thinking about you...wishing you the best...

SD

Hi TN!

Thanks so much for the feedback. Like you, I get caught up in feeling awful, which makes it hard to do the therapy. Of course, the pain is very legitimate, but it’s also important to have the courage to at least try to do the work while in that place. That in itself is enraging. They say that the mind is elastic and it’s possible to actually change its physical makeup. If that’s the case, it really is a stop-and-start, meandering process just as you describe.

Helle,

I’m sorry that you too experience the evil fog. It’s just the worst, isn’t it? Sometimes I think of it as a defense that the part of me that doesn’t want to change uses as an attempt to block any new information from being integrated. Thanks for your kind words.

SD,

Thanks for your wonderful post. We have a lot in common. When I started therapy, it was one a week, but it was clear that I was in such bad shape that it became twice a week, then three times a week, which is where I’m at now. So it’s kind of a de-facto analysis in that sense. But, I’d say it’s more dynamic than a traditional analysis. My T interacts with me a lot. There are days where he doesn’t talk for maybe 10 minutes or so while I think and talk, but it’s always followed up by him talking. I think the no-talk approach would drive me crazy. That said, my T is pretty non-emotional in our sessions. He doesn’t give me advice on what to do and is absolutely a hard ass in making me figure things out. There is no encouragement, pats on the backs or gifts being exchanged here!

Your outline of analysis is wonderful. Your description of how language is interpreted – Freudian slips, choice of images and analogies and metaphors and even profanity – everything means something beyond its face value. This can be rather annoying at times, as I’m sure you know, but despite my irritation at this, I know it is important. So in this sense, my therapy is an analysis.

Another example is the dreamwork we do. Just last night, I had yet another dream where there are people doing work on my house. The contractors working on my house are making a mess. Some kind of water heater or boiler has been removed and there’s some kind of fluid all over the floor. But there’s a sense that they know what they’re doing, so I try not to interfere. But, it’s THEM working on my house, not me. We will discuss this in our next sessions, and talk about the manifest content vs. the latent content.

Like you, my T doesn’t give me what I demand from him…namely, straight answers to my questions when those questions are a gloss over the actual issues at hand. But I will say this about my T…he makes no mistake that the goal is getting me to SEE and to FEEL my issues, however we can make that happen. He rarely uses psychological jargon, and I’ve never, ever heard him refer to any book, school of thought, specific technique or famous practitioner.

I would love to talk more with you about analysis sometime.

Thanks so much!
Russ