Skip to main content

The PsychCafe
Share, connect, and learn.
49 replies

Please help - T conflict

redtomatoredtomatoMember
I need help, advice, support and perspectives. Mostly perspectives. This is a really long post and I really appreciate anyone who takes time to read it and respond. But here's the skinny: T was 30 minutes overtime with session prior to mine - without stepping out to explain she was running late - and didn't think there should be any consequence for her due to keeping me in the dark for 30 minutes. For the details, continue reading. . . .


My sister was flying in on Friday, 2+ weeks ago, and our task was to sort through the final things in our mom’s house and make decisions on what to do with each item. It would be (and was) a difficult and sad weekend.

Anyway, the Thursday before my sister arrived, I had a session with T and was looking forward to talking about what I knew would be an emotional weekend. I arrived for my session about ten minutes early and sat in her waiting room. At ten minutes past the hour, I figured T was running late, but I was starting to get anxious. I could hear voices (not words, just that people were talking), so I knew T was in there with another (likely) client.

By 30 minutes after the hour, I was distraught, confused and waaaay triggered. (Plus, I thought my session would be cut short because she leaves for another job immediately after seeing me.) These overwhelming feelings were sufficient to push my agenda aside and take over my limbic system. This was when T finally opened her door to me.

She immediately apologized for being so late, but said she had been so "enthralled" by what the previous person was saying, that she totally lost track of the time. Cue me crying, upset, and unable to speak. I finally wrote, briefly on paper, how badly I felt, and I gave that to her. She did give me the full time that day.

I sent her a long text on Friday and we talked on the phone late Saturday. T said we could do a double session on Tuesday. And we did. I felt that she owed me the time for the second hour – that I should not have to pay for it because she screwed up. That the only thing she could give me as compensation was her time, without me paying. T argued that she needed to maintain her boundaries and that the therapy framework was such that she gave me a set amount of time and I gave her a set amount of money. I protested about how badly it had affected me and that it was because of her actions that I needed more time. And also because of being triggered so badly, I was in no way able to talk about the upcoming weekend with my sister. I mentioned that a previous therapist had always given me a free session when she had screwed up – such as a double booking. T said our situation was different, because I did get my time.

We did a double session and I, very grudgingly, paid for both. T said that she was fine with agreeing to disagree. I said ok and left.

In the days that passed, I had more time to process what occurred and I felt more and more that T was wrong - that I was being wronged. These were my conclusions:

• We agreed to disagree, but I was still the “loser” as things went her way (I paid) not my way (free time). Agreeing to disagree was not a neutral resolution. I told her this was an example of the power imbalance between us.

• Going forward with T not having a consequence (why should she have a consequence? she did give me my time) was not okay. It is not okay for her to be late. We had already talked about her arriving to the office late 5 or 10 minutes late, and how I felt about that. Basically, I put up with it. But 30 minutes is in a whole different league. The analogy I used was this: if I speed and a cop pulls me over, I can’t just say, “okay, I was going too fast. I won’t do that anymore.” There’s a consequence for doing something wrong – a ticket.

• We had talked a lot about how I was triggered during that double session, and some of that factored into my arguments that first day – which T didn’t buy either. However, I realized that the triggers and my response were a separate issue from T being late. Yes, they were connected; one prompted the other. But they were separate. And so that needed to be our focus at this particular time.

• T had said that thinking about it some more, she would have done it again. That really disturbed me. I said that if she had just stuck her head outside the door saying that she was running late, I could have handled that. But doing it again? T did concede it would have been much better if she had done that. But, she said, when it happened, she had totally lost track of the time. She wasn’t even aware that session was going over.

• I told T that if I had been chronically late to session and then 30 minutes late, it would be a therapeutic issue. T agreed that this was a therapeutic issue, because it was affecting our relationship. But she said, she thought it had more to do with what was happening in the room before my session. Of course, there's nothing I can say about that.

• And finally, T said that this has never happened before, so she wasn’t really sure what to do. She said that she would get supervision about it – and I appreciated hearing that. At least she was seeing it as something important. This remains an open issue between us.

I really, really need some feedback about this. How do you think this situation should be handled? Her way, my way, or some other way?

Thank-you for reading.
-RT
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Attachment GirlAttachment GirlAdmin
(((RT))) first off I want to say that it's totally understandable that you are upset and that his feels like a major issue. Anytime the frame of therapy gets disturbed can be very upsetting for people with attachment issues. And this came at an extremely stressful time for you. I think it is very wise of you to engage with this and express your feelings and work it through with your T. She did mess up and you deserve to be able to express your feelings about it. (For me, my at saying they were "enthralled" by another client would probably eat up at least three sessions but I have jealously issues.)

I what to be clear that the next part of what I say is my opinion, and I am nowhere close to being certain I am right. I think this is a fairly complex situation and I am glad that your T is seeking supervision. I do think this is a boundary issue. By expecting your T to give you free time (especially since although late, you did get your full session) I think you may be attempting to make her responsible for your feelings. Yes her actions created a problem, but your feelings about those actions are your feelings. I know that you probably felt like you were so upset you had no choice but to address the situation and forgo what you had planned on talking about, but it was still a choice you made. You could have said that you were really upset but needed to talk about your sister's visit so could you come back to it later? Not every client might have reacted as strongly as you did (because it didn't happen to trigger one of their issues NOT because you are a worse or weaker person) so there would have been no need to spend the session discussing it. So even though your Ts actions were the catalyst, it was your reactions that needed to be dealt with which is legitimate work to be doing in your session. And it sounds like your T was non-defensive and stayed focused on your feelings so she didn't hijack the session on you.

I know this probably sounds really harsh, but I know one of my really difficult struggles with boundaries has been to own my own feelings and be able to let go of other people's feelings knowing they were theirs to deal with. I have struggled with enmeshment in most of my significant relationships (daughter, mother, wife) so it may be my own bias but I offer the input as a possibility.

Sorry, edited to add that I think she did compensate somewhat by providing another session. My T has a really full schedule and would probably not have done that, so from my perspective she doesn't seem to be just blowing off the fact that she messed up.

AG
redtomatoredtomatoMember
Thanks, AG, for responding. I appreciate what you are saying. (And I get what you mean about "enthralling" Eeker) And I totally agree that T and I need to work this through - both what happened between us and why I reacted so strongly.

But I really do think they are separate issues. And even if I hadn't been so triggered, I still think there should be a consequence for T. Can you tease out just the being late part (T doing something wrong by not holding up her end of our working contract) and help me understand why everything should be business as usual?

-RT
redtomatoredtomatoMember
cat - thanks for your thoughtful response - and sharing your experience.

I guess I expect psychiatrists to be late. They are doctors after all. But not therapists. There is a whole rationale for holding a specific time for the client.

And I understand the feeling about not wanting to pay for being put through hell. Damn those therapists! But I'm fine paying for it. That's what therapy is about, after all. OTHER STUFF comes up all the time and sessions get side-tracked, but I'm okay paying for that. It's part of the process.

Go back to my response to AG. That's what I don't get.

-RT
Attachment GirlAttachment GirlAdmin
Yes she was late, but it sounds like she gave you your full session time correct? So yes, you lost a half an hour of your day but I am not sure I would demand compensation for that. For example, I once pulled a no show because I wrote down the wrong time. My T would have been within his rights to charge me in full for the session, but he didn't. That was an extension of grace on his part recognizing that we all mess up sometimes. I apologized, he accepted. So if he ran late (which my T does occasionally - worst was 25 mins but there was a note on the door) I extend the same kind of grace in that while he does owe me a full session, I don't expect restitution for my lost time.

Your T gave you the full session and then made space in her schedule to accommodate your need for support and owned her mistake and apologized. It may be because of how my T operates that I see her providing more session time as more compensation than you do. It is close to impossible for me to get a second session in one week (it's happened once) and regularly get bumped because of Ts time off. If I was in a really serious crisis, he would get me in or schedule a phone call but I do not do that lightly because it usually means he will cancel on another client so I do not ask lightly. I say all this not to say you need to agree with it, but to explain why I see your T making amends.

So it makes sense to me that if you used session time to talk about your feelings, even if provoked by your T's mess up, you need to pay for the session time.

To put it in perspective, my GPs office pretty routinely runs behind with waits anywhere from 10 mins to an hour but I don't expect to get anything for that lost time and I still pay for the appointment. But I know the analogy breaks down at this point for you cause it's not like the doctor broke my leg or infected me with a disease. But that's the point I was a making in my last post: even though it can strongly feel like your feelings were your Ts fault, they really aren't. Not everyone would have reacted the way you did. So expecting a free session would draw a line of causality and responsibility to your therapist for your feelings, but they are not her responsibility or fault (if any blame can be laid it would be on your a users/neglecters who left you a legacy of emotional fragility towards your attachment figures).

I truly hope I did not come across as argumentative, I was trying to expand on what I meant in response to your question.

And just so you know, I am going to sleep as soon as I post this (early morning tomorrow) so I won't be responding any further tonight. Didn't want to worry you that I was upset or ignoring you.
beccabeccaMember
RT, I am sorry this happened to you. I had my once a month session last Thursday. T calls me last Tuesday to see if I could come in a half hour early. Sure, I answer, knowing I will then have to leave work an hour early instead of a half hour. To do this means I skip my lunch two days.

I get to my session and T is 10 minutes late. I am livid because I rush to get there because she needs me to come in early, then she's late.....no, that just didn't fly with me.
We go into the room and nothing. No apology, although she did seem kind of upset. I asked her if she was ok and she said yes and still no apology. So I am getting angrier by the second and she starts to make small talk about the weather and my response is indifferent. She then asked if I was mad and I just freakin blew. I yelled at her "THE WORDS ARE I AM SORRY I'M LATE, THOSE ARE THE WORDS!" She agreed, then apologized. She is late with me a lot and I take it personally, which I get is my problem, but don't ask me to come in early then be late. Geez. I only get to come once a month please don't be late all the time. This crisis basically took up my whole session to talk about. Another wasted opportunity in my book.

I get you want a consequence for your T but it doesn't sound like that will happen. I would put money on the fact that she doesn't ever do that again. I do think she used really poor judgement by using the word "enthralled." I would be thinking, oh ya, you never go a half hour over with me because I am so damn boring. I do think the fact that you guys are hashing this out, will benefit you in the long run. Good for you for speaking up and taking care of yourself even though you didn't get everything you wanted.
rebuildingmerebuildingmeMember
RT, I am really sorry this happened and applaud you for working thru this with your T.

I agree with AG and what she has posted. With that said, I think your T. is very wrong to have been 30 minutes late even with a popping of her head out the door to explain. To stay with the previous client because of being "enthralled"... that is where the first boundary crossing occurred to that client and you.

Yes, mistakes happen even with T's, but they need to hold responsibility and being on time is very important to maintaining a solid base for which both of you can work together in a secure space.
redtomatoredtomatoMember
AG, first, thanks for responding again to clarify. I don't find your post argumentative, so no worries. And thanks for letting me know you were signing off. That was really thoughtful.

I accept that my feelings and reactions to this situation are mine. I understand that talking about it is the grist of therapy, and that's what I pay for. But please try to take my responses, my feelings, out of the equation and answer this: at what point does T's wrong behavior require a consequence for T? I think this is really my bottom line question. Certainly it is easy to determine when the behavior is extreme - taking sexual advantage, for instance. Serious wrongs can be taken to the licensing board for determination and consequence. The minor wrongs need to be sorted out between therapist and client.

The only thing that is consistent in the therapy contract is the framework. Even the quality of the therapy is outside of the framework. T provides a specified time for a specified duration in exchange for a specified compensation. Yes, there may be other policies, but they are wrapped around this basic frame. There can be three violations here:

+ T doesn't abide by the specified time.
+ T doesn't provide the specified duration.
+ Client doesn't give the specified compensation.

Client: I can't afford to see you this time, so I'm not going to pay.

Therapist: I am leaving early, so I will only give you half of your scheduled time. (And worse, still be expected to pay for the entire time.)

Therapist: I was doing something else, so I didn't abide by our agreed schedule.

Are any of those okay? I don't think so. Certainly communicating about each of these in advance would allow for an agreement about how the rule could be altered.

Is it okay to drive 60mph in a 55 zone? No. A ticket is the consequence. A greater infraction, 80 mph in a 55 zone, a higher fine. Apologizing doesn't make it right; it acknowledges the wrong. There is still a fine.

-RT
redtomatoredtomatoMember
Becca - thanks greatly for taking the time to respond.

I hate what your T did to you. Irresponsible and unthoughtful, especially so since your sessions are so infrequent and T flagrantly disregarded the timing she had requested. I think your anger was a totally normal response.

I don't know what will happen in the future with T. And yes, "enthralled" was a particularly difficult word to hear - very triggering of all those "un" feelings - unworthy, uninteresting, etc.

The thing that is good in all of this is that I'm not experiencing it as a rupture. It's been super-super hard, but I've been honestly expressing what I think and how I feel. We're having meaningful dialogue, and I trust that we will work through it. It's been a long time since I've had that trust. Maybe, even, this is the first time.

-RT
rebuildingmerebuildingmeMember
Hi RT, You are considering lots of good and fair things. However, I would ask yourself do we want to fine each other for a mistake that did come with an apology? The speeding ticket is based on law and not human interactions.

I do think your T was very wrong to do what she did. Should there be a fine or consequence? I don't know it sort of strikes me wrong or too far. Grace comes to mind.

I guess the question is too, if you were late for your appointment, would T. extend grace to you and give you the entire time?

So, you see I go back and forth on what I think is right, fair, and giving grace to others.

I'm sorry, I'm not being helpful with any real guidance. The whole situation does sxxx.
catalystcatalystMember
If you take your emotions out of the equation, does there still need to be a consequence to make it okay?

If the person before you had been suicidal and needed extra time, would you need a free session? What if T had a sick relative, got stuck in traffic, woke up late, saved a lost kitten, needed an extended time in the bathroom, got caught up in an insurance call, had to coach her kid through the first day or school or a break up and lost track of time... Would she still need to pay you to make it better? If lateness means absolute - equal to doing something illegal like speeding - she has to pay?

I get the frustration and could totally see her comping the session as a courtesy for customer service or asking for a reduced rate but not required :/

If a P, Dr, Plumber, mail carrier, dentist, cab, store opening were 30 minutes late should they then perform their service or give you the items you want to buy for free? Those people we expect to be on time, but occasionally they aren't.

I dunno. I'm glad you guys are talking about it at least!!
Attachment GirlAttachment GirlAdmin
OK RT I take your point, its the lack of a consequence for your T that bothers you. You had to endure a lot of stress and painful emotions but it looks like she just got to shrug and move on, not even losing any pay. And you think she should have to suffer somehow.

So it is your sense of justice that is being violated? That this is not fair, and its bothering you enough to post about and pursue this goal very strongly. I would start looking for what is underneath.

What do you think the consequence should be?

Why is it so important that she be punished?

Why isn't her taking responsibility for what she did, acknowledging she was wrong, and apologizing seem adequate?

How would you feel if you missed a session and your T charged you for it?

If you missed a payment one month or session (whatever your payment period), would you expect your T to charge you interest or a late fee?

Would you want to live in a world where punishment would always be the consequence?

What about if you go 65 in a 55 and there's no cop around? You just sped without consequence.

For anything short of malpractice, the only consequence I can think of that a client can bring to bear is what you have done, which is to ask the therapist to waive some part of their fee. But she does not agree that your chosen consequence is appropriate. You could still choose to NOT pay her, although a consequence of that action might be for her to terminate for non-payment. The ultimate consequence of her behavior is that she might start losing clients.

So here's my personal take, which is that my therapist is not perfect and there is no perfect therapist out there. I am not comfortable living in a world without any consequences nor do I desire to live in a strict world of black and white with rules for every situation and a punishment for every failing. So I tend to approach relationships with a "both of us are going to be annoying and fail each other at some point and I want to extend the same grace that I would like to receive." My therapist has several boundaries I am not fond of: I do not have a regular appointment, he's lousy about getting back to me about non-emergency stuff (a non-emergency appointment request can take 5 days to hear back and that's after leaving a reminder message!) and there is no touch aside from a handshake. But here's the thing, that's who he is and its not going to change. So I am left with the decision of do I continue to work with him knowing these are his shortcomings (in my eyes)? For me the answer was yes.

So I think you need to ask yourself is your therapist's tendency to run late and in this case, zone totally and REALLY run late, a deal breaker?

Ultimately something like a speeding ticket and our need to pay it is backed up by the threat of societal sanctioned violence. Our ultimate power is whether we continue to work with a therapist.

Yes, I know this sucks and it doesn't feel fair and it isn't fair, but it is unfortunately what life is like. We can insist how things should be in a perfect world as long as we want to, but it doesn't change the reality we live in. And in reality, we're not the only one's who get a say. So if you're T does not agree that she should waive some or all of her fee, your choices are to accept that or leave.

AG
rebuildingmerebuildingmeMember
After re-reading your original post. The part that is very bothersome is that she would do it again and had lost track of time, not even knowing she had gone over the time.

Her boundaries, inconsistency, and lack of being able to manage time would be worrisome for me.

For me to move on from this, I would need to see her own this and support you on the framework of the contract going forward.
redtomatoredtomatoMember
Rebuilding Me, I so appreciate you responding.

The thing about being 30 minutes late is that it was significantly late and there was no notice, warning, explanation. If she HAD put a note on the door or popped her head out to say she was running late, that would have been acting responsibly and I would have waited without all this turmoil ensuing.

Yes, situations do come up. T has cancelled due to illness. She called; I understood. T has run late getting to the office due to traffic. She called while I was waiting. Fine. Once T was 10-15 minutes late and when I finally entered her office, she appologized saying there had been a crisis which had thrown her schedule off. OK. I understand clients have crises. But 30 minutes without any notice or communication? Uh-uh.

Remember the "15 minute rule" in school? If the teacher didn't show up in the first 15 minutes of class, students could leave. I think maybe that is my cut-off point - where it goes from being acceptable to unacceptable. (Full disclosure: my father was a teacher, so I think school rules had more import for me.)

I see you and others have posted some more, so I will have to read through that.

thanks much,
-RT
Attachment GirlAttachment GirlAdmin
RT
One more thing, I am wondering if this is so very painful because it's calling up memories of abuse. The adults behaved any way they wanted to, hurting you and causing distress and pain but at no cost to themselves. And you were powerless to act on your rage and make them pay for what they were doing.

I carry those feelings, so much so that I have physicaly flinched at the cruelty and depravity of some of my revenge schemes that have come out in therapy. I am wondering if those kinds of feelings are feeding the intensity and need to be explored.
redtomatoredtomatoMember
Shoot, cat. I was just getting ready to respond to your original post because you asked some really good questions. I'm sorry you felt you needed to take them down.

The one I remembered though was in what situation would I expect to not pay for a service that was provided. Good question. A couple of situations came to mind. I recently had my car worked on. I was waiting for it (hmmm... time factor) and it seemed to be going on forever. I inquired about the status and was told that they had ordered a part but it was the wrong one. They were waiting for the correct one to arrive. When I went to pay, they comped the part since I had to wait extra long. No, not required, but good business practice.

Other situations? I'm still thinking.

I had a deck built last year and now, a year later, the privacy wall is leaning badly. I will call and expect the company to come fix it without charge.

If you can, I would really appreciate if you'd at least post your questions to me. I knew it was going to prompt a lot of consideration in me, but I can't remember them all.

For all your stuff that made you take it down, big hugs, ms cat.

-RT
catalystcatalystMember
Sorry I took that part down - it was my personal story stuff. I hoped you got to read before I had to. I apologize!

Unmmmmmm I can't remember all my questions. Honestly, I've been super dissociated lately. I'm sorry... Uh.. It makes sense they'd comp the part, and if someone messed up a job they'd fix it. I've had meals comped when they suck.

I do get your arguments. Just for whatever reason I don't think she is required and a lot of it is due to the personal stuff I've processed and how it related directly to my triggers. I hear myself so much in what you're saying. With the consequences.

I am really sorry again for deleting my questions part with everything else.
redtomatoredtomatoMember
RM - Yes, my mind is going through all kinds of contortions trying to sort this through and I really appreciate the feedback I am getting here.

Your comment about grace is a significant one - and I think T would provide me with a fair amount of it. I think I do as well with T's chronic lateness as well as the other "situations" I described in my previous reply to you (which I posted after your previous reply Big Grin).

You wrote, "do we want to fine each other for a mistake that did come with an apology? The speeding ticket is based on law and not human interactions." No, I don't think fineing each other for every infraction is reasonable. And human interactions are quite different from the law.

Nevertheless, T's with good boundaries do stay firm to the contract. And I know this is much of the question here, because T feels she is holding her boundary by requiring me to pay. Should I not be afforded the same? Were my boundaries violated because T didn't abide by our scheduled time without making accommodation (letting me know she was running late)? I think so.

RM, please don't think you're not being helpful. You are, very much so.

-RT
redtomatoredtomatoMember
AG -

Yes, I do think this is about justice. I have very strong feelings about justice - not only for myself, but for the disenfranchised, the environment, animals and more. I consider justice part of my value system, and I feel strongly about standing up against injustice. I have been treated unjustly for almost all of my life, and the only thing I can do about it is to take a stand. And I have done that in a couple of very significant ways - both personally and societally (is that a word?). Justice is a value and a boundary. That, and injustice I've experienced, is what's underneath.

Memories of abuse? Yes, certainly emotional neglect was an injustice. But I have put that in a context and accepted that I now own the consequences. I'm not aware of these things specifically affecting this situation, but they probably do in that they are part of a systemic and long-term injustice.

You ask some good questions and most of my answers support my view of the situation. I guess, though, from reading all the perspectives, that the questions I struggle with are: Where is the line? Where is the grace?

Thanks for continuing to help me think about this.

-RT
L lieseMember
((((RT))))

I didn't get a chance to read through the replies so maybe someone already said this. You are entitled to feel angry about what happened. Anger is good. It's going to protect you. T should have been watching the clock and she wasn't. I don't care that she was enthralled. It's her job to watch the clock. 30 minutes IS a long time to run over.

So, on one hand, you felt abandoned and that's why you got so triggered. On the other, she should NOT have run over by 30 minutes. It's just not acceptable. Can you think of some kind of compromise other than wanting her to pay for her mistake? Has she acknowledged that what happened is not professional and will not happen again?

Did she ever simply tell you she was sorry? Sorry that she hurt you? Sorry that you were triggered? Sorry that she left you waiting out there for so long? It seems to me that might go a really long way.
affinityaffinityMember
RT,

Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, but this is what I'm hearing:

Your T ran over late and it triggered some very intense, very negative feelings for you. Your T acknowledged that she made a mistake and offered you an extra session to help you deal with the fallout. It sounds to me as if she has tried to make amends. However, this has not satisfied you. You say she should be "punished." It sounds to me that because her actions caused you some hurt that some hurt (withholding her pay) should be inflicted upon her to make the situation fair, no matter if she's apologized or made amends.

You say she violated your boundaries. Ok, which ones? Most people don't have a boundary that says "I shall not wait more than X minutes to be served." It sounds like the only boundaries she violated are her own.

It is very typical in the medical field to wait a long time to see a doctor or nurse, even if you have an appointment. 30 minutes in most doctor's offices would be a reasonable waiting period. I know it's a little different with Ts because they are supposed to have boundaries on session length. However, it's totally possible for Ts to hold the session length boundary and still run late with appointments. It has happened a couple of times with my T. An emergency phone call in the middle of the day can throw off their entire schedule. My T has kept me waiting a couple of times, once in the 30-minute range. It wasn't the end of the world, and I still paid for my time.

I don't think this is about your therapist running over with a client at all.

AG once told me that when we experience very intense reactions to things people say and do, it's almost never about the present. Some old wound from the past is being dredged up. Your desire to punish your T strongly suggests this. I think you should analyze a little more deeply what feelings were triggered and why. Because I don't think getting a free session is really going to resolve the issue for you.

Sorry for the hard words. I hope I haven't overstepped.
redtomatoredtomatoMember
Liese - She said sorry that she ran over. I don't recall if she said she was sorry about anything else - I was too upset.

I've been thinking about compromise as well and what that might look like. The only thing I came up with is that she'd split the difference with me on paying. But that seems contrary to all she's saying, so I don't know that it would fly. Other ideas?

I agree about anger. And thank you for acknowledging that "30 minutes IS a long time." And for "It's just not acceptable."

Ms Drags - ouchie, indeed.

Affinity, I am grateful for your input. I did ask for perspectives, after all, and that's what I really want.

I didn't use the word "punish." That's come from others in their responses. I don't want T punished. I want her to be accountable. A consequence isn't the same as a punishment. Ask a parent . . . Wink

As far as why this triggered me so strongly - I'm sure we will be talking about it for some time. I'm not trying to avoid that. In fact, I was just musing what AG said about justice, and I think I do have a tendency to react strongly when I think it has been violated. Not sure that's necessarily a bad thing unless it interferes with my life - as it did this time. But I still see that as a separate, although connected, issue.

I do really think that the appropriate response from T would have been to say, "I'm sorry I left you waiting so long without letting you know what was going on. Because I screwed up, THIS session is on me." That's accountability.

No, Affinity, you haven't overstepped. Thanks for taking time to respond.

-RT
redtomatoredtomatoMember
One more thing about accountability . . .

My very first T, some 30 years ago, had a policy of comping a session when she screwed up. She said that in our relationship, it was the only thing she could give back to balance the scale.

I think I've held this as my standard for so long that it has become my expectation for accountability.
L lieseMember
Red

I so get where you are coming from. It has been my lifelong goal NOT to have feelings. I went to therapy to improve my life - never realizing the missing piece was my emotions. So when things the therapist did - double booked me, for instance, set off my abandonment issues, I blamed the therapist because I didn't want to Feel anything at all and their behave up was causing me to feel.

Unfortunately, I've come to learn that things people do are going to have an effect on me and like it or not, if I went to get along in the world and not be a miserable waif, I need to learn to deal with these strong reactions.

That being said, you have a legitimate gripe re: her running over with the previous client. On the one hand, she is saying she HAS to maintain the therapy frame with you but didn't do so with that other client.

It seems that there might be a power struggle going on between the two of you. The lack of choice she gave you re: consequences would make the relationship feel even more Unequal than it already is. It really highlighted the power differential.

It might help if she focused on that instead of steadfastly maintaining her boundaries. Her difficulty in maintaining her boundaries with the previous client says to me that she stretches herself when she feels comfortable and when she's getting something out of it. It sounds like she has issues in this area, doesn't have it completely sorted out for herself and perhaps the issue will arise again for her in different ways with other clients.

I am writing from my phone and have no idea if this is coherent. But the long and the short of it is that you both should focus on your feelings of powerlessness. Her refusal to move on the payment issue without addressing the validity of your anger isn't helping you learn how to stand up for yourself in real life and that's what you need to learn how to do. Therapists tend not to run over like other doctors because
Of their strict adherence to boundaries and I don't think it's okay for her to do that again. Perhaps you could get her to agree to a free session if she does it again and that motivate her to watch the time. Wink.
L lieseMember
(((RT))))

When people move away from us (as was the case when she overextended herself with the other client), it tends to evoke abandonment issues, at least for me. So first you get and feel abandoned and then on top of it, you feel and are made to feel powerless. It's a wounding on top of a wounding. The time thing and the refusal to give you a free session are her issues that are evoking your issues but in reality you aren't being abandoned and you aren't powerless. It just feels like you are.

Hang in there. It's awesome that she's willing on her own to seek supervision. You two have had such a good relationship.
redtomatoredtomatoMember
Liese - the only power I have if I don't like the resolution is to leave or accept it. I don't want to terminate and I don't want to accept it. To me, that feels like giving up my power - to let someone roll over me. Do I accept the way society in general and governments treat gay people? (Getting lots better. Yay.) But the last 40 years of my life have been immensely impacted. So I stood up to it, both personally and publicly. That's my power. Not just accepting what is handed to me.
jonesjonesMember
Hi RT -

I hope you don't mind me chiming in on this. I find the boundaries/consequences thing really interesting & provocative and it's the only thing that's animated me enough this morning to get me out of bed! I'm sorry this has happened - I think what she did was crappy and would have felt awful. I'm so glad, though, that your relationship is in a strong enough place that you can work through this so well and thoroughly together.

I have quite a strong reaction to this idea of devised or imposed consequences. When you wrote 'ask a parent', I thought 'ask a child'! I too see them as a form of punishment, and beyond that as a way of controlling (and suppressing?) emotional content. In relational situations, including parental ones (it's interesting that this and the law are the models here) I am a much bigger fan of natural consequences. I feel like - when people are connected to each other, when there is a functioning and empathetic relationship, one person's hurt is shared by the other person. True empathy and remorse properly expressed are felt experiences, deeply felt by both parties, and they heal hurt more than a performance of consequences ever could.

But we often back up our expressions of remorse with something concrete, and I get that that can help somehow. I'm trying to think through why I feel so wary of that as a solution here, and I think it's because it seems to put the cart before the horse. It sidesteps the actual emotional work of feeling & sharing pain & fallibility. Maybe it offers an illusion of control (the control of a parent, the control of the law) and the illusion that this can never happen again. Maybe solving the problem this way is one model of good practice, but emotionally I feel like it's a bit of a blind alley, to go there first.
L lieseMember
((((RT))))

quote:
the only power I have if I don't like the resolution is to leave or accept it. I don't want to terminate and I don't want to accept it. To me, that feels like giving up my power - to let someone roll over me.


I very often felt like that and sometimes still do. It's a tricky situation to be in because, in many ways, you have been treated badly and you have been powerless both because you are a woman and because you are gay. You genuinely have had power ripped away from you. It's a reality. People who have always had power do not know what it feels like and cannot empathize with what you have had to endure. I know your bind only too well.

You deserve to honor and validate your feelings of hurt and abandonment by your therapist and by everyone else in your life who has hurt you. That is your reality.
redtomatoredtomatoMember
Hey Jones - I'm grateful for your input, so thanks for chiming in. You are lending a perspective that I haven't picked up from other responses - but also one that I'm having a hard time understanding. Maybe you will clarify more for me.

"when people are connected to each other, when there is a functioning and empathetic relationship, one person's hurt is shared by the other person."
I agree.

"True empathy and remorse properly expressed are felt experiences, deeply felt by both parties, and they heal hurt more than a performance of consequences ever could."

When I read this I think about the money itself - the 'performance of consequences.' But it's not really about the money. It's about taking responsibility - which I believe is more than saying "I'm sorry" and then business as usual. Yes, saying I'm sorry is part of it, but so is doing something about it.

"But we often back up our expressions of remorse with something concrete, and I get that that can help somehow."

Something concrete is not elusive, or up for interpretation. It just is. And I think it demonstrates ownership of the problem.

"I'm trying to think through why I feel so wary of that as a solution here, and I think it's because it seems to put the cart before the horse. It sidesteps the actual emotional work of feeling & sharing pain & fallibility."

Not sure what you mean here. We are doing the emotional work. That started immediately, because it was so emotional, so I don't see it as being side-stepped. And T explained why she believed she was holding her boundary by asking me to pay. So I don't get how that could be different, 'cart before the horse' wise.

"Maybe it offers an illusion of control (the control of a parent, the control of the law) and the illusion that this can never happen again. Maybe solving the problem this way is one model of good practice, but emotionally I feel like it's a bit of a blind alley, to go there first."

I don't understand this. Whose control? Of what? And again, what do you mean by 'going there first'?

This is helping me think about the emotional connection between me and T and how this event is affecting T, me, and our relationship, our alliance.

Thanks,
-RT
rebuildingmerebuildingmeMember
quote:
Originally posted by RedTomato:
Hey Jones - I'm grateful for your input, so thanks for chiming in. You are lending a perspective that I haven't picked up from other responses - but also one that I'm having a hard time understanding. Maybe you will clarify more for me.

"when people are connected to each other, when there is a functioning and empathetic relationship, one person's hurt is shared by the other person."
I agree.

"True empathy and remorse properly expressed are felt experiences, deeply felt by both parties, and they heal hurt more than a performance of consequences ever could."

When I read this I think about the money itself - the 'performance of consequences.' But it's not really about the money. It's about taking responsibility - which I believe is more than saying "I'm sorry" and then business as usual. Yes, saying I'm sorry is part of it, but so is doing something about it.

"But we often back up our expressions of remorse with something concrete, and I get that that can help somehow."

Something concrete is not elusive, or up for interpretation. It just is. And I think it demonstrates ownership of the problem.

"I'm trying to think through why I feel so wary of that as a solution here, and I think it's because it seems to put the cart before the horse. It sidesteps the actual emotional work of feeling & sharing pain & fallibility."

Not sure what you mean here. We are doing the emotional work. That started immediately, because it was so emotional, so I don't see it as being side-stepped. And T explained why she believed she was holding her boundary by asking me to pay. So I don't get how that could be different, 'cart before the horse' wise.

"Maybe it offers an illusion of control (the control of a parent, the control of the law) and the illusion that this can never happen again. Maybe solving the problem this way is one model of good practice, but emotionally I feel like it's a bit of a blind alley, to go there first."

I don't understand this. Whose control? Of what? And again, what do you mean by 'going there first'?

This is helping me think about the emotional connection between me and T and how this event is affecting T, me, and our relationship, our alliance.

Thanks,
-RT


That's it right there RT, your ending words in your post. This is helping you to think about how this event is affecting T, you, and your relationship. That is the work that should continue that Jones is referring to. Its the relational work that you and T will need to do to make amends, to find grace, acceptance and change in her and you too. This will have far greater impact than monetary compensation or consequence. Sometimes in therapy, the T. needs to learn too. I'm hoping that she can and will take this event as an opportunity, just like you are in exploring it here with us. But, do it together.

Does that help?
redtomatoredtomatoMember
Thanks for saying it so simply, RM. I think you're right.

This all happened with T two weeks ago. I just posted here two nights ago. I think the time between has helped me be able to consider the varied responses. Over the past two days, my mind has been going round and round this like it was the Industrial Revolution.

I don't have any answers, but I have lots of questions, lots to ponder and lots to talk about with T. Amazing group of thoughtful and compassionate folks here at Psych Cafe! Y'all have seen me through a lot of tough times. Grazi.

-RT
jonesjonesMember
Hi RT -

Sorry if I was convoluted in my post. There are things about my feelings about it that I am still figuring out. But I'll explain what I can.

There are different layers here. On the business-transaction layer, I think it's generally accepted that the provider sets the terms of a deal. Some shops refund, some don't. Some Ts say you pay if you cancel no matter what, some say you pay if there's less than 24 hrs notice, some accept cancellations with no penalty for sickness, etc. We just choose to accept or not accept whatever it is the provider puts on the table - or negotiate something different ahead of time. Your first T had this thing on the table - if I mess up and unduly upset you, then I will compensate with a free session. It's a nice thing but probably a fairly unusual thing. Your current T doesn't have that on the table. So at the level of business transaction, that seems straightforward to me: it's not in the rules of her practice, it's never been on the table.

On an emotional level for you, she messed up and you want something concrete to signify her responsibility. And so you are going to the business transaction to find that. Fair enough, given that you had a different experience where that was normal. And I think it would feel safer for you. As you say, not elusive, not open for interpretation. She messed up, she's sorry, and you both have the transaction to prove it.

But I do see what I think is her problem with this: because comping was never on the table, she would actually be altering the rules of her practice if she did this for you. And maybe it's not a good idea to make ad-hoc alterations to one's business practice according to the emotional situation of the moment. I can see how that could make for boundary problems.

So what I was trying to get at before, is that it's possible to make this transaction complete and fully felt on the emotional level, rather than the business level. I get the idea that if she says she's sorry, you don't trust that. Perhaps you don't know whether she's really taken responsibility, or whether she's maybe lying, or paying lip service, or will forget the importance of this in a couple of weeks and do the same thing again.

I think that's fair enough - how would you know? But maybe she can show you through her words, her attention, her listening, her remembering. One of my Ts apologised for something once and I accepted it but still felt kinda let down. But two or three weeks later she brought it up again and talked about how it had affected me. That blew me away. Never before had someone apologised to me and then *remembered what they'd done*. So I felt her remorse, and her responsibility, and I felt healed of that hurt.

I get that you are already doing the emotional work and will continue to. I guess I phrased it wrong by saying 'going there first' etc. I'm just suggesting that the money is not the only way to complete the emotional work. But it's hard to say what in the emotional realm would do it for you - that would be something you'd need to figure out together.


quote:

"Maybe it offers an illusion of control (the control of a parent, the control of the law) and the illusion that this can never happen again. Maybe solving the problem this way is one model of good practice, but emotionally I feel like it's a bit of a blind alley, to go there first."

I don't understand this. Whose control? Of what? And again, what do you mean by 'going there first'?


Here I'm trying to say that maybe you'd feel more in control of the feelings and the situation if you had that concrete thing to KNOW that she took responsibility. Like a parent feels more in control when they lay consequences for a child, or people feel society is 'under control' when there are consequences for breaking the law. Maybe it feels like it would provide safety and protection in a dangerous situation. But control is never complete (people keep on messing up) and it can be very hard work to try to make it complete. That's a different process to mutually establishing trust. I'm not sure whether this feels relevant for you or not, but for what it's worth.
redtomatoredtomatoMember
Update -

I have had a day you would not believe. Starting with Little Me and ending with Little Me and woven all through the day. Actually, it started with Jones's 2nd post that I read before getting out of bed. I think the essence of her words, of all the words and thoughts and processing - it all hit me, and I felt like (yes, truly this is what I thought) red leaf lettuce. So much surface but all bunched together, making it seem tight, close, yet vast. Anyway, flooding tears reading the post. I yearned to be with T. To be talking through these hard thoughts and feelings. Way beyond the 30 minutes. Way beyond. And out of me came a voice. Not out loud, but oddly from Little Me in a text to T. I knew it was Little Me because she used a name for T that has never been spoken or considered before. She wanted to talk to T.

Back at my mother's house again today, I opened what was probably the last untouched item in the house. An old Samsonite suitcase that belonged to my grandfather. In it were rolls of paper - paintings on newsprint from, yes, Little Me, in 1962. It was like opening a time capsule. And there it was - Little Me's view of the world, and her voice. Her 5 year old voice as spoken to her teacher and written on the page. I looked at the first colorful painting and written beneath it was: "A movie. There are people behind the red, but you can't see them."

I wailed. It slammed into me with force and certainty and truth. I made the sounds of a infant - sounds pushed from the back of the throat without a whisper of words. The sounds of an inconsolable baby. And then I believed what T has said. It was pre-verbal. There weren't any words for it.

I pushed away the paintings - a whole roll of them and moved around the house, out into the garage, into the yard, avoiding the child's artwork. Finally I returned and looked some more. Then there was another one and again the cry. A startled cry, because she did not expect to see more of the truths.

The Little Girl stayed with me through the day, peeking out, hiding. Nervous, scared. And there was still more for her to come. I will try to write again soon about what happened later.

But before the evening was over, we made a call to T, and on her voice mail, in broken words and cries and the voices of both Little and Big Me, we asked to see T. Tomorrow. A Saturday. No clue if T works on the weekend and what was the likelihood anyway? But Big Me asked for Little Me. T called back. She said yes. She said she appreciated me calling, reaching out. We see her in the morning.

-RT
Next

Add Reply

Post

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×

Access to this requires a premium membership.

Be a Patron Member

Get psychotherapy help to make your therapy easier and better.



Yes, I've learned about all the benefits of being a Patron Member (Click here if you missed seeing them: Community Psychotherapy Help

Yes, I understand that...

1. I can do a 7 day free trial and my credit card will not be charged until that period is up.

2. I can cancel at any time before then and my card will not be charged.

3. That once my credit card is charged, there is no refund offered.

Have a special coupon?

4. If I'm using a coupon my receipt won't show the discounted amount (It'll show $7.95). However, I understand that it will go through as $2.95 when I am billed after the 7 day trial. (According to the current promotion, this discount applies to the first three months of my membership - and as long as I use the coupon in the checkout.)*

*Please note that after the 3 months, billing will revert to the regular monthly fee.
**The fee posted below is our standard billing fee (ie. using no coupon).

7-Day Free Trial, then $7.95 per Month (plus tax if applicable)
×