((((TAS)))

quote:

is it better for the client to just not go there...knowing the Therapist can never be that?

Everyone is different. Everyone had different childhoods. Some had more difficult childhoods than others. Some of our adults lives are more stressful than others.

Based on that, and this is just my opinion, I think some people need an emotional mother or father in order to recover from not having one in childhood. They might not be able to find a therapist who is on the same page as them or willing to fulfill that role but that doesn't mean the therapist is right and the client is wrong. I'm not a neuroscientist but I don't believe the brain is capable of making the changes it needs to make without having that emotional need fulfilled. I think the person will be able to function in life but not to the extent they would be able to function if they had that need for safety met.

When that person is able to be more emotionally independent, they process what they need to at a pace they can manage. TAS, this stuff doesn't get processed in a day, a week or even a year. Just a little bit at a time is all anyone can handle.

The boundaries come into play here in terms of you saying it hurts too much for you to manage. Your T really doesn't know (unless he's you) how painful this process is for you so you have to be the one to manage that but that's really hard for most of us to do on our own especially if we are in the beginning stages of therapy. He should be clued into the pain and it sounds like he is by cutting down on your contact and sessions because the extra contact caused you more pain in some regards.

A part of you needs more contact but there is a part of you that is hurt by it and that sends you into a tailspin. The part of you that is hurt by it does better with less contact because it doesn't trigger all that painful stuff but the part of you that needs more contact gets hurt by less contact. You are stuck in a catch-22. That's pure torture, TAS, because either way you can't get away from the pain.

Hey TAS
I think I'm hearing what you're saying bout boundaries. I have to say from my own experience that my emotional boundaries are now pretty high bec lowering them can lead to a lot of pain. It makes u vulnerable. I kno when I return home & see my new T's my boundaries will probably be @ an all time high bec of this place & problems that have occurred here. I already feel bad for them bec I'm not the same person they originally met.
Bec my boundaries will b high I expect the T to go a lot slower & it'll take me twice as long to lower them, but to get @ the root of my problems ill need to lower them & let them in. I think healing occurs when ur most vulnerable & able to accept the help that's given. Like liese says it could take a very long time. If u have a tall wall you'll just have to go brick by brick instead of using a wrecking ball. There'll b less damage.
I do believe in physical boundaries, absolutely, for the client. We have to protect ourselves to a certain extent & kno before we get in there what will break us & cause more damage. You kno in ur heart how much u can bare so now u have to walk a fine line w/ ur T so u do t fall over that edge.
Not sure if this helped or made any sense.
Hugs!
Mudd

I do think clients need boundaries, I know in therapy I've learned a LOT about improving my boundaries, and get to practice them with my T.

I will sometimes predict what my T is thinking and correct myself to say something more about me, not about her. My perceptions are mine. I also can't tell someone what they think - which is a boundary.

I've been able to say yes or no to touch. That's a boundary. If it's something I can't handle, then I can't handle it. I've also gotten to say yes or no to call backs depending on what I need. I can say answer or not answer questions from my T, or start and stop topics I'm discussing. I've learned to, though my own boundaries, how to accept feedback and have my own thoughts or feelings that I don't need validated by someone else to believe - they are mine.

I've had very tight boundaries, and also areas without boundaries (or areas I thought I could not have boundaries). It's been very important to therapy - at times it has "impeded" faster change, but unless I learned how to manage my own boundaries I wouldn't really be improving at all - which is my goal in therapy. It's helped me feel more in charge and individual.

So, anyway that was rather long but yea... clients need boundaries for sure. IMHO it's what we are there to learn in many cases. My T has said I have good boundaries, and I think it adds to the mutual respect and closeness I feel exists in the relationship. I feel I can be really authentic and as often as it is in my interest, my T can be authentic too.

I think the client should go where they need to go and I learned a lot about my boundaries through my negative transference - I put so much on my T and learned from there what is mine (my thoughts, ideas) and what is an other's.

OMG! LIESE! THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL!!!! WHAT DO I DO!?!

"A part of you needs more contact but there is a part of you that is hurt by it and that sends you into a tailspin. A part of you needs more contact but there is a part of you that is hurt by it and that sends you into a tailspin. The part of you that is hurt by it does better with less contact because it doesn't trigger all that painful stuff but the part of you that needs more contact gets hurt by less contact. You are stuck in a catch-22. That's pure torture, TAS, because either way you can't get away from the pain."


I have even said to the Therapist I feel as if I am in a Catch-22. How do you get out of that? I don't know how. Have you ever heard the story where if a wolf or animal is caught in a trap...say their arm is only trapped...they will literally chew off their arm to get out of the trap...I don't know how to get out of this...and that is what is causing me confusion.

I don't know if I am confused because I can't figure it out with my brain. I don't know if I am confused because these two parts in me are conflicting.

I am so worried I am not going to be able to get past this. I have spent almost 2 years and a lot of money, time, tears, and a lot of energy to get where I am.

I am at a loss.
T.

Thank you Mudd! Yes, definitely can understand...and sometimes it is slow and tedious work...one layer at a time...one brick at a time...

Physical boundaries are a must! One time I accidentally touched the Therapist and I said, "I am so sorry, I did not mean to touch you..." He knows I am so freaked out by touch...he was very understanding and said, "I know you didn't."

Catalyst I guess the key is learning what is yours and what belongs to another. The transference feels so real. I have had a lot of negative transference...it feels so real...even though I tell myself I know these feelings don't belong on him...it is so strong...

Thank you for replying guys!

MUDD...love that name T.

Hi Tas,

I don't have a mother or father and I have had strong wishes for my T to be a surrogate parent. Even though I know he can't be, it has been important that I explore this for a few reasons.

Therapy is there to help you heal and grow. So while a good T can provide the emotional support, understanding and closeness, doing anything more would actually foster a dependency that isn't healthy as an adult. This is so hard to accept when you have child parts inside who are alone, dying and screaming out for parental care and nurturing.

If you avoid this incredible pain, it does not go away. It is a shadow that follows you forever and gnaws away deep inside. You will never be free of it until you face it.

And yes it is so hard and so painful and you can feel like you're not going to survive it. But everytime you do, you gain a little more strength and your sense of efficacy and competence grows. And if you persevere you will reach a point where you can see that you and your T have the job of re-parenting you, but in different ways. At the end of the day its up to us as adults to care for our child parts 24/7 and find relationships outside therapy that nurture and support who we are. I have really only come to terms with the real limits that my T will only ever be my T very recently. But doing so has created more freedom for me to explore other avenues and relationships in my life.

So in a very long winded answer to your question, I think boundaries are important, but I think if you drew one around this issue you'd be hindering your own healing. Grieving unrequited love is as soul destroying as it gets, but you won't believe what's waiting on the other side - its so much better than the hell you're stuck in right now.

Hugs xx

Liese's quote:

quote:

A part of you needs more contact but there is a part of you that is hurt by it

can you clarify, Liese? is the part that is hurt by it hurt by feeling the need/want for more contact? is that what you mean?

and GreenEyes:

quote:

If you avoid this incredible pain, it does not go away. It is a shadow that follows you forever and gnaws away deep inside. You will never be free of it until you face it.

i really wish you were wrong about this, but somehow i know you're not. as much as i hate it, i needed to hear that.

quote:

I have really only come to terms with the real limits that my T will only ever be my T very recently. But doing so has created more freedom for me to explore other avenues and relationships in my life.

that's all they are, isn't it? it is a helping, professional relationship that will end (as all relationships, after all, do). that is a painful realization. i'm happy for your new-found freedom! that is an awesome testimony!

(((CD)))

quote:

is the part that is hurt by it hurt by feeling the need/want for more contact?

Yes, I think that's part of it. Feeling uncomfortable with the power imbalance. Our dependency on them. For me, there was also a fear of being seen, a fear of intimacy. A fear of being engulfed. All of those fears had me running away from T but then I would have a fear of abandonment and go running back only to be met by those other fears again. It's a really painful place to be.

Does anyone believe in the necessity for fantasy in the healing process or that there is a place for fantasy in the healing process? Does anyone believe that reality could be too threatening/depressing/hopeless for someone to handle that they have to rely on fantasy until they are stronger?

I completely believe the client also has boundaries. Around transference I don't see the idea of boundary so much as a client can choose or unchoose a therapist who does or does not work with transference the way the client wants to work. I do not think controlling transference is the same as having boundaries.

quote:

Originally posted by Liese:

Does anyone believe in the necessity for fantasy in the healing process or that there is a place for fantasy in the healing process? Does anyone believe that reality could be too threatening/depressing/hopeless for someone to handle that they have to rely on fantasy until they are stronger?

Yes!

On the one hand, I needed/need to feel important to my therapist and I do feel important to him. I don't need to feel like I am the most important but I need to feel like I matter to him. That if I call for an appointment, he's going to fit me in, that kind of stuff. I didn't necessarily need to feel like a daughter to him though I did and do at times want him to feel proud of me and feel protective of me. I have at times needed him to be a father figure to me.

On the other hand, I grieved my FOO. Grieving the FOO was very difficult and doing so meant that I had to rely on a bit of fantasy in order to manage the pain. Feeling protected and held by T as I let go of what I didn't have was essential. You can't face the world alone. Once the grieving process was nearly over, I have been able to let go of the fantasies bit by bit but definitely not at the same time.

Now, though, I have this great T who is so incredibly steady and caring, much stronger and more caring than my parents ever were. He will be by my side as I attempt to build a strong relationships with my children and strengthen friendships - something my parents couldn't do for me either. Who needs a mother or a father? The reality of what a therapist can give is so much better than what our parents gave us, TAS. It's worth getting to the other side.

Honestly, it wasn't so much that I needed T to be my family because I couldn't live without one. It was that I was so ashamed NOT to have a family. What would people think of me if I am estranged from my family? It must be my fault that I am estranged from my family. Once I accepted that it wasn't my fault and that I am actually the healthiest of the bunch, it was a bit easier. I also think I was overestimating the value of family. They are essential. Don't get me wrong. But to cling to the notion of having one when the one I have/had was abusive just for the sake of having a family just doesn't make sense.


Here some parts from a book that I like entitled "Treating the Adult Survivor of Childhood Sexual Abuse" A Psychoanalytic Perspective by Jody Messler Davies, PH.D. and Mary Gail Frawley, PH.D. 1994.


Gratification and Mourning

How do we steer a course between rigid adherence to an antiquated caricature of treatment and the kind of countertransferential acting out that can lead to intense overstimulation in the transference, including all forms of actual rather than symbolic reenactments?

.....

All those who work with adults who were traumatically abused as children know that ..... the neglectful parenting has rendered them as adults virtually dead to experiences of hunger and desire of any kind. Their salvation was bought at the expense of the most stringent counterdependent defenses, and, like anorexic patients, they no longer experience feelings of hunger. Any approach that clings to notions of abstinence and total non gratification serve mainly to intensify such defenses as well as the shame and humiliation that accompany any experience of need in the the therapeutic relationship.

Thanks, Liese, for this book quotation. I'm sneaking a peek on Amazon right now.

RabbitEars

quote:

I don't need to feel like I am the most important but I need to feel like I matter to him. That if I call for an appointment, he's going to fit me in, that kind of stuff. I didn't necessarily need to feel like a daughter to him though I did and do at times want him to feel proud of me and feel protective of me. I have at times needed him to be a father figure to me.

On the other hand, I grieved my FOO. Grieving the FOO was very difficult and doing so meant that I had to rely on a bit of fantasy in order to manage the pain. Feeling protected and held by T as I let go of what I didn't have was essential.

Hi, Liese.

Thanks again for your perspective on this. Your words match my experience very closely(though my T is female and a mother figure for me). For me, the fantasy is (1) a risk-free escape from difficult realities and (2) "practice" for how it might feel to allow myself to be closer to T in person, in session, or "practice" in allowing myself to even recognize the wish to be closer to T (and eventually, through more practice, closer to people outside of therapy).

I am nowhere near the end of the grieving, and I think there may always be a part of me that wants to keep the fantasy/escape version of T in my head. It is a kind of comfort/consolation for all that we didn't get, couldn't have, and can never replace, and I don't think it interferes with "real" relationships. So....is there any reason not to indulge in fantasy? I hope not.

RabbitEars