Hi Catalyst,

I do not know a whole lot about this. T has told me on a few occasions that because of the nature of the anxieties and struggles I have with attachment, she assumes that there are some early childhood (prior to age three) issues at the root of it.

The way we are dealing with it is simply by addressing attachment in the here and now. Obviously I don't remember anything from that far back and T is not really into recovering repressed memories (I don't even know if that's possible at those ages, even if she were). Sometimes in the course of our work memories will come up and we'll discuss them, but I've never remembered anything pre verbal so far. I guess it's all conjecture at this point, but I'm inclined to trust my Ts assessment. It makes sense given what I know about attachment.

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he way we are dealing with it is simply by addressing attachment in the here and now.

HIC... ah what a smart observation. If I think about it that is a lot of the work I'm doing with my T right now. I know she's used the phrase 'missing development stages' at times which... oh gosh does it make me inventory all my actions to find the (what I assume) 'immature' ones are but I don't think that's necessarily what she means. Maybe that is another way to say the same thing.

I wish I knew what it was like for memories to 'come up' almost all the stuff I remember I remember remembering... (that's a mouthful!) I don't THINK I've come up with stuff where I feel like it's 'recovered'. My Ts aren't in to memory stuff either they just sorta deal w/ what comes up. One of the things I like about doing a lot of somatic work in my healing is that it's non-verbal. It really freaks me out and triggers me not to know if I know something or not. I doubt even things I know for certain (like if I was wearing a blue shirt and someone said 'no, it's orange' I would really, really, really look at the shirt and worry I was lying to myself - I'm not even kidding I do this with so much when I'm talking to people I respect).

Thanks so much for sharing your perspective on this, it gave me lots to think about

Cat,
Pre-verbal abuse is something that my T and I have talked about alot. As my relationship with my T has deepened and I have moved closer, we have hit some very intense emotional experiences that are not tied to any "memories." And when I have these really intense feelings there is often this incredible struggle to speak or even express the feelings in words. I often turn to metaphors to describe it, but it often feels like the words fall so short of the internal reality. It's like it has a shape and intensity inside of me that often feels impossible to express. I will literally struggle for minutes at a time to even say anything.

My T has told me that he thinks I am experiencing pre-verbal memories of my relational experience BEFORE my frontal lobes came online. In other words, it's felt experience but it was not possible to process it or understand it because the capability didn't exist so I also didn't form explicit memories. Just the implicit deeply engrained memories. For me these are often the desperate intense longing to move closer juxtaposed to a terrible fear, an overwhelming terror of moving closer.

The sense I make of it is to try and describe the feelings and fit them into what I know of my experience but it's not about "KNOWING" what happened, just recognizing that this was MY emotional reality no matter what the cause was. So what you're talking about makes sense to me. Of course, I'm not sure if that should make you feel any better.

AG

AG -

sorry it took me so long to respond - hope you are still enjoying your vacation

I really like that you have been able to feel suck intense, unspeakable feelings with your T. I'm sure internally it is hellish, but to share it with someone... I hope I can be there someday. I still get angry in therapy w/ myself if I am silent and overwhelmed. So far, it's been easier for me to do this in somatic work because there really DON'T have to be words than in my talk work where I'm really left brain engaged and trying to 'figure it out'.

So... I wonder if all pre-verbal memories since we don't really have much procedural/processing stuff going on if they are all 'relational'. That would tie in with the 'here and now' stuff HIC was mentioning. Have you found your pre-verbal types of things come out only in the context of moving closer? I think, well at least based on some of the conversations w/ my T about this, that a lot of my pre-verbal stuff is a sort of giving up - I don't have basic defenses (my body refuses sometimes to even put my arms up) and I've read a lack of self protection can point to that. Also it may be related to my sense of giving up. Like crying forever as a baby and realizing they probably aren't coming.

I do agree with you... it's not about knowing. I'd like to know... but it's about feeling!

((hug)) good to hear from you, again sorry it took so long to write back.

CAT,

I think nearly ALL of my stuff is caused by pre-verbal abuse. Both my T's and the ex-T said this. That explains so much of my problems.

I know I cried forever as a baby and I know no-one came - I can actually feel that now with my T when I am needing her and I think that is why I can't hold her inside me for more than minutes sometimes. Also why I feel safe when I am with her but when she is out of side she is the same as being dead or has abandoned me.

I also think that is why I freeze so much in session - something triggers me and i have no words for it - T says - to give it a colour or shape or name - and I have no words - just a fear and terror. Then I zone out dissociate. I think when I was younger - if there was tension I learnt to freeze and become invisible or risk being hit or yelled at.

I think it is also why I am having trouble with mindfulness, touch, being unable or feeling that crying in front of people is dangerous. I know that I was hit if I cried - so i get the link to danger there.

If it happened when you were pre-verbal you didn't have the power of speech to help you and so now when I am triggered and I don't know why - I freeze and I have no words.

It makes a lot of sense for me and it has given me peace to understand this. I think my issues started at birth. I would really like to heal myself as a newborn baby - I feel a real need to do this and that is my aim in therapy - but i fear it will take too long. There was a lot of trauma around my birth too and apparantly the family were asked to choose which one lived. They said that my mum and I had to live - so I guess that all could have had an impact too. I suppose I should tell T that one day.

SD

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There was a lot of trauma around my birth too and apparantly the family were asked to choose which one lived.

That's just awful SD - but I'm very glad you made it and are here. You'll heal, but yes it does take a ton of time.

I really understand what you're saying about dissociation interrupting things like mindfulness, touch, trust.

Based on some of our somatic work my T suspects my Mom drank with me (no shock) and I know I made her ill enough she was in the hospital for the first part of her pregnancy as well.

I think there are a ton of different development stages that can lead to very specific issues and I wonder also how much of it is genetic or personality based. I think when I would cry I'd get an angry abusive parent or just no assistance reliably instead of intermittently (but who knows) which I think may have caused a lot of my dissmissive stuff but who knows. I know my parents joked about leaving me until I turned blue in the cold because I'd take off or have no blankets and no one would check on me and I wouldn't cry.

I also know there is a very real stage where kids feel like literally their parent does not exist when they leave. I don't have that - I'm not sure if it's because I don't care (but I do care) or because I somehow made it okay through that stage. I can imagine it is very confusing to feel someone is just gone - I really can't imagine what that would be like. I don't give my Ts much extension outside of their office (sorta giving them context like how when you grow up it's weird to see your teacher has a life outside of being your teacher) but I still know they are out there. Maybe somehow I've had the feelings but not related to them.

Okay, sorry this reply was long!