Hi Jill, I guess I'm a little surprised that you want to start getting down to the core after only 3 or 4 sessions? I don’t know much of anything about DBT, but could you be jumping ahead of your own process?

To answer your question about what struck the chords to open up new levels of honestly, for me it was definitely trust. There were a few things that I can think of that really strengthened our relationship, that then led to being able to talk about more core issues. After almost a year with him I felt like I could trust him, and that he’s shown me that I can trust him. Now of course we are still building trust, but I can see where I started to open up more.

-Mac

Hi Jill.

Dont have much time, but would like to offer at least my sympathy with your questions and for what its worth: The first year in therapy, this was my number1 frustration. how to reach the core-issue...It takes time. Thats my experience, but you seem to understand allot as you know its conected with breaking through the resistance...

quote:

i feel like there is too much chit chat at times, and i want to be moving forward and getting to the core issues...
WHAT ARE SOME QUESTIONS TO REALLY OPEN THIS CORE UP???

quote:

Yep..chit-chat is sometimes good, sometimes just waste of time.. I guess often- when the session goes on with ONLY chit-chating its a sign of defence. Lately i became aware of that. Those session i only chit-chat are those sessions i (uncounsiously) keep tryin to avvoid the real issue. And your T should be able to recognize this defence. Yet- even if my T understands i`m avvoiding stuff- he wont redirect the dialog. Its all up to me.

SO..What are THE QUESTIONS TO OPEN UP THE CORE? i`ve actually just posted about what i concider to be THE CORE QUESTION in my therapy, the question that everything seem to spin around. I know this is very individual, but fwtw: My T asked: "Why did you bacame SO attached to me?" just as simply as that.
I dunno what question you would want- but i tend to think all questions that focus on the relation are "door openers" and will touch core stuff.. Can i ask you to think of some questions you would like your t to ask you? Are there questions you`ve long for to be arised?

ps: Thanks for Ph.4:7

maclove, you are probably right, but i don't think i can sit around and chit chat for a year to develop trust. i am going in with trust, and i do know that is my usual style, to trust (to grab on tightly like a child to a momma's leg) just hoping against hope that this time it will work. my logical response is, chances are a reputable t should be trustworthy, and i am not a totally repugnant person, so, odds are, it should be ok.

now with t3, she couldn't handle it, i quit on t1 and t2 for appropriate reasons, and now, i don't have time to sit around wondering if i should, for $125 an hour, trust this person. i am going in with a leap of faith that i can trust, and i want to get the small talk over with and get to the meat of the issue. i am sure that approach just sucks, but i am impatient and getting poorer!

frog, i think your points may be my lead next time...bring up the chit chat ask to be worked beyond it, and, no, i am not attached, and really i have to question if i have to be to work through this, attachment isn't my only issue. emotional regulation is a biggie. rage, internalized, is a biggie. fear of sadness is a biggie, avoidance is a biggie. i am attached to my husband, and is that enough? it is secure, why do i need to attach to a t only to have to have those needs unmet? resistant to attachment to a t?? big.

i am just going to unleash all of this and let them tie up the pieces as i am not paying $125 an hour to just see if i can trust. i am there.

i, too, am sorry if i sound mean. i am angry at this whole process. sad and angry at the amoeba-ness of the whole process. i am angry and sad and mad and i don't know where it all goes. and funnelling it in a productive way is like diverting niagra falls.

glad you like ph 4:7, it is my constant prayer.

sad and mad and angry and hopeless that i can wait out the storm....jill

Jill, I`m sorry youre in this pain. Therapy causes allot of it, doesent it? its so draining(?) to be scared and fear sadness...yep, relate to that one.
But i would like to add a thing: This may sound weird, but i guess your impatients and angry feelings are gifts as well! Such feelings are "great" energy-powder in therapy! impatients makes things happens! it makes one look for (demand) changes and makes one move the process forward i think. I dont know if it helps- but perhaps its good to look at all this feelings as (besides the pain they cause) as a contribution( ?sorry, my english lacks good words, bear over with me) to your healing process? At least impatients, madness and anger are strong drifts and emotions, and as you know- they are "good" if they`re are directed/or transeformed into good projects (ex.therapy) and expressed rather then directed inwards (repressed anger causes sadness and depression)

so i guess- sumarized- i`ll say: Go for it. Express your anger and let it all out with your T. And let him make sense of it for you and clearify it, and let him- as you wrote- "tie up the pieces." (I take this advice myself as well i`m totally unable to express anger with my T, so its a bit ironic i keep giving this advices!)

quote:

resistant to attachment to a t?? big.

quote:

I hear you. Attachment aint your only issue. But its one of them- so maybe a good question from your t would be something like: "Why dont you wanna attache with me?" If this question also provokes a lot of anger and frustration in you- then i`ll bet it touches some core-stuff.. Would it? If so, why? (Iam just guessing here jill)

Whats about the process you´re most angry at? (i mean, beside "the whole process?" )

All the best to you, do whatever you need to do and keep venting if it helps in any way.

jill,

I sure do understand the anger at the process and at how long it takes to heal. My T says it is like peeling an onion one layer at a time. Well, have you noticed those layers? Some of them are so thin they are translucent. If all the layers are like that then getting to the core of the onion will take a lifetime! I wish wish wish the process moved more quickly but it takes as long as it takes and I confess that at the moment I am not taking that lying down. I re-read a journal entry this afternoon in which I described hitting the stearing wheel of my car. I wrote how I wanted to identify the anger. At the same time I realized that venting my anger at people will damage my relationships with them. Turning it in on myself does not help me heal. When I let it motivate me to do something constructive, it helps but you are right sometimes it is like trying to divert Niagara Falls. I know the anger is there for a reason and I need to find a way to direct it at the person who caused my pain and ultimately, as a Christian, vent it at the serpent who is the instigator of all evil on this earth. Dan Allender, a psychologist and abuse survivor who specializes in sexual abuse issues said that with his anger he "delights in doing one more day of damage to the serpents wicked efforts."

All that to say, jill, I understand. You're not alone.

deeplyrooted

thanks gals, frog and deeplyrooted

frog, yes, i am trying to vent the anger in positive things that promote the course of this therapy...even cleaning a closet, i see a direct relation with the gusto of anger towards a positive source. indirect, but positive. funny, while you were writing me, i was writing a four pager to read next session.

i have a pattern of shooting myself in the foot to just get the rejection i expect over with. i do it in social interactions, by being outspoken, or in dress...and, i wrote this whole thing out, that i am bored with chit chat and need their skills to progress this...so thanks for letting me see, which i didn't until you spoke to me, that the anger vented at the progress of therapy, by a skilled t, SHOULD propel things forward...at least they know psycholigically, i am 'caught up' to where we are and need their skills to move forward.

i am risking it by reading it, but stagnation disgusts me. i am going into the unknown, taking a risk, and i guess, gonna again live through the consequences...keep in mind, though, that none of it is mean...just direct and honest. and somewhat pleading...ok, very pleading, for t to not abandon me for being honest, for t to not leave me, to be the stronger and wiser one i have been looking for all my life, to point me forward. to help me even when i am rotten. to stay with me...to have answers, and a plan. (is that pleading enough?)

deeplyrooted, yes, venting that anger, i like your statement about the serpent of destruction. i can't vent at my parents, tried, still doesn't work... just tears me up and they will never get it, just defensive and malicious. so, hitting a steering wheel actually sounds pretty good. there has to be some rage, it can't all go towards 'cleaning the closet' type positivity!

yes, the onion makes me cry, too, i think that is why they use that analogy rather than a head of cabbage...lots of tears. some feel cleansing. funny, i used to just cry the whole session. so, now it is a lucky day in a way if t gets to tears. maybe that is progress??

but, turning it inwards doesn't get me where i want to go. funny t talked to me when she knew i was berating myself. she said wonderful things...'that isn't going to get you where you want to go', she asked me if i could quit the mental chatter and listen to her for just a minute, anyway, i think she is good.

thanks for all y'alls kind words. hopefully we will have another graduate around here one day!! jill (feeling better for having vented and been heard)

I see what you’re saying- Just thought you might want to try another tactic since I thought I remembered you saying that the reason it didn’t work out with t3 was because you pressed on the gas too hard or something like that.
-Mac

((((jill))))

quote:

i, too, am sorry if i sound mean. i am angry at this whole process. sad and angry at the amoeba-ness of the whole process. i am angry and sad and mad and i don't know where it all goes. and funnelling it in a productive way is like diverting niagra falls.

... sad and mad and angry and hopeless that i can wait out the storm...."

I don't have any words of advice, but a heck of a lot of being able to relate with the frustration and anger and sense of hopelessness about the process. Sometimes, it's mind-numblingly frustrating and exhausting and seems pointless for me. I wish I knew what helps to get through that or get to what matters most (certainly not the chit chat!) my heart goes out to you for how sad and frustrated and down you feel, and I'm glad it's a little easier since being heard and "venting." Please do keep sharing and asking - you do get to the heart of things and it's great! you are amazing, and I look forward to the day when you will "graduate" too. I believe it's gonna happen! hang in there.

maclove, you remember well, yes, i had her press on the gas, and she drove me right over the edge. i know i am impatient, but, dang, ive been down this road with quite a few t's and i just can't sit on slow. it drives me crazier than my problems do.

janedoe, thanks for the empathy. now, a few hours after i wrote my 'discord', i don't know that i'll have the nerve to read it. one thing though, i think i see a pattern of setting myself up for rejection just coz i am so impatient and i feel like i know the ending of most any relational transaction, and that, being rejection, that i hasten it. i used to think i get on my soapbox and get outspoken about stuff so that i cut through the riff raff of people to find the ones who might be kindred souls...in a confident way, that i can handle rejection and i don't need YOU kind of a way. but, now i think i do it to test them to see if they will leave me, and maybe kind of pissing (sorry) off my t, i will see just what kind of person they are, and if they bolt, or dump me, at least i cut to the chase.

i dunno, the peeling off of the bandaid is so boring, the chit chat, the bs, let's get to the good stuff, and i will TRUST them that they can drive better than old bitchy stinky t3, and maybe we can get somewhere.

geez, therapy is the only business i know where you spend three months and many thousands of dollars to get no real answers, only a wait and see approach. i HATE IT!!

and i hate that my feathers feel all smoothed out most times i get out of there, and then, like a cannon to a pidgeon, i am blown away within hours and can't find a smooth feather in all the wreckage. the cycle continues, the wellbutrin, i guess, helps?? who knows, still a mess. no real big difference, if any. yawn, jill

Hi Jill,

quote:

i think i see a pattern of setting myself up for rejection just coz i am so impatient and i feel like i know the ending of most any relational transaction, and that, being rejection, that i hasten it. i used to think i get on my soapbox and get outspoken about stuff so that i cut through the riff raff of people to find the ones who might be kindred souls...in a confident way, that i can handle rejection and i don't need YOU kind of a way. but, now i think i do it to test them to see if they will leave me, and maybe kind of pissing (sorry) off my t, i will see just what kind of person they are, and if they bolt, or dump me, at least i cut to the chase.

I think that this is a pattern that a lot of people get stuck in. The key is to find a T that doesn't fall for those well-oiled tactics and can step in and stop the cycle because they recognize it for what it is. It's great that you're starting to take notice of some patterns that you may find yourself in...it's a tough thing to do. I'm still unsure of my patterns at this point.

quote:

let's get to the good stuff, and i will TRUST them that they can drive better than old bitchy stinky t3, and maybe we can get somewhere.

What exactly is the "good stuff" for you, Jill? Even if it seems boring, I think that on some level, presumably an unconscious one, you realize that going right to the core (are you talking about inner child work?) is just too dangerous. Even though I know your past Ts have had tons of fatal flaws, I wonder if any of them ever started to get close to talking to your inner child? Because I would imagine that if that happened before you really developed trust in your T, you would immediately try to push them away in whatever way you could. There's so much of you that wants to hit the ground running with all of this, but I think every single one of us has a part that simply requires time and patience in order for us to trust another person, especially someone like a T.

You're trying so hard and it's really admirable. Hang in there.

Hugs,
Kashley

thanks for your terrificly thoughout post, kashley.

yes, just putting that all together helped me realize both sides to why i get outspoken on topics, the confident side, and the underlying afraid little girl side. i want to be a four year old brat and have someone FINALLY stay the course.

yes, t3 is the only one who did inner child stuff. and if she had just taken care of getting me out in time, i wouldn't have written her that 'mad' email and she wouldn't have bailed in such an unprofessional way.

i think i'll just run all these thoughts as best i can by t, and see what their response is.

how much time?? darn it, if i wouldn't have had to leave t1 i'd be getting somewhere, but the transference and counter-transference and lack of insight oriented therapy just made me run. really without closure, although i sent him a nice thanking email this summer to confirm that i had moved on, but thanks for all he did.

i miss the guy, but don't think going back to him is the answer, he just didn't have anything else to tell me about me. no inner child tools. definitely no dbt tools, not really even cbt...just a kind, listening ear. and confirmation that what got me where i am was a dysfunctional (highly) past. i miss him though, in this time without a really bonded t. sometimes i think of going back to just see him, hear his voice. but what would that get me. i wish i could just hear him say, what i know is true, and that is, that he liked me as a person and a client. he thought i had a pure heart, and was beautiful on the inside. i know he thought these things, but, i would have liked to have heard it, and without hearing it, like never hearing a parent say they love you, you just always long for the words.

sad jill.

Jill,

I'm sorry that you are struggling so much.

I think the chit-chat behavior is definitely a defense. It certainly is in my case, but my T calls me on it every time. She will allow it as we are coming in and getting settled, but if it continues beyond that then I get, "you seem to need to keep things light today. Is there a reason for that or are you needing to back off from the hard stuff for a bit?".

From what I can understand from your experiences with previous T's and what you talk about here, I think you really need a T that can keep you contained, is content to let the trust develop slowly and naturally, can help you work on small pieces of material at a time so you don't get flooded and who will put the brakes on for you if you can't. With t3, it sounded like you got into some really heavy material and inner child work without having first developed coping skills and trust. It is vital that you are given the coping tools and have practiced them before getting into the bad stuff. My T describes it like driver's ed. You wouldn't just hand the keys to a kid and let them drive. You need the teacher in the other seat with their set of brakes and guidance in order to safely learn to drive. It feels like to me that you are so anxious to feel better (who could blame you!!) that you go head first into the therapy and the T's let you because they don't know you well enough yet to know the depth of the issues. When you encounter the really bad stuff, your defenses are kicking in and you are wanting to flee from the bad stuff, but it ends up feeling like you need to flee from the T or they are trying to flee from you and from there it is a self fulfilling prophecy and you end up alone holding the bag again.

I am just guessing here and some of this may fit and some may not. So take what fits and leave the rest. I think it is vital that you find a T that has worked trauma for a LONG time and has significant attachment training and can see all of this behavior for what it is. Defenses that are there for a reason and need to be worked WITH rather than against in order to develop the trust needed to get to the core issues. So the long way around answering your question is that I don't think there are any probing questions to use in order to get straight to core issues. There are tons of steps to go through before getting to the core and any questions that cut straight to it are likely to cause you significant difficulty.

strm, you are right. every word. bingo. nail hit square on the head.

the self i present seems quite convincing, dbt gal even said in session two that i am going to have to let her know when i am feeling distress, as she can't see it. she was a bit odd, in wanting me to understand how 'well' i hide.

she caught me the other day, and really read my mind. knew i was beating up on myself pretty hard. she MADE me quit it, but in a kind, yet forceful way.

thanks strm. i appreciate you taking a risk and being honest with me. you know how much that means, honesty.

jill

i am getting to the point that with these 'skimming the surface' type questions, vaguely about sex, etc, i am just going to confront t and say, 'so it seems you really want to talk about sex and how that plays a role in my deal...ok, then fire. ask questions, quit skimming the surface looking for a snag, BRING IT ON!!!'

i hate the pussy-footing approach, but, yes, i do realize where t3 got me, guys, how DO you have the patience for years of this stuff???

(i am not trying to be ugly, just grrrrrrrrrrr, impatient, and i hate a surfacey chatter)

jill

i guess what i really want, is to just fall apart in someone's arms (figuratively is ok) and have them be there, contain me, walk me through this, let me cry, contain me...bring me back, reassure me, encourage me, accept me, like me, help me, do it again if necessary, 'rinse and repeat'...

oh, that would feel so healing, so good, so completing, the genuine tears, the holding, the bottom of the abyss met, and found, and not being alone there, at the bottom. someone to help me get out, to explore it, and see that it is not as terrifying as perhaps i am fearing.

someone, please take me there and stay with me there. please, i am HUNGRY to go there. that is my impatience, let's get to it and then work our way back....a YEAR of aiming at the abyss and not landing with a supportive, trained, caretaker is just exasperating.

i don't know much about carl jung, but i saw this quote the other day, and really think it makes sense for me, as uncovering all this positive stuff about me and trying to focus my attention on it, as opposed to the 'darkness of the abyss' is just window dressing.

“Enlightenment is not imagining figures of light but making the darkness conscious.”
Carl Gustav Jung

anyone relate to this??????? jill

Wow Jill you’ve just articulated so beautifully exactly what my sense and longing is that drives me into therapy. To just let it out, get out all the black pain all the stuff in the abyss, over and over and over, with someone there to hold it, to take it - they don’t have to make me feel better they don’t have to fix it or undo it, they just need to be there, exactly as you say, to reassure to encourage to accept ... rinse and repeat. Love it!

*Sigh* like you I’m impatient as hell to get to that point, but it doesn’t seem to matter how clear about it I am, haven’t come across a single T who seems willing to jump straight in, or even to encourage it. I get the sense that they’ll ‘deal’ with emotions if and when they come up, but that their main focus seems to lie elsewhere.

If you go in all ‘emotional’ they seem to feel this need to get you out of that emotional state, and if you go in talking about how you feel, they’re seemingly happy to keep on talking about it, instead of pushing to get the actual feelings into the room.

Any ideas on how to get them to understand what we really are looking for? Maybe they are scared to unleash powerful emotions in us that we then have to take away in full flow after fifty minutes or whatever? I still don’t get it, maybe I’ve got the wrong idea of what therapy is all about. Still.

LL

Perhaps its anger at the fee? Unfortunately therapy cannot be rushed, there are dark places that need the chit chat for them to even begin to feel safe, whilst your chit chatting, the dark places and watching and checking, there are layers of anger, the easy reach anger is only the tip of the iceberg, perhaps you could find therapy with a sliding scale so theres not so much pressure to be done?

yes it is anger at the fee, melba, i've put in one year one to two times a week at $125 to $150 an hour, most one and a half hour appointments, you do the math, i can't take it. i know it takes time, but geez, WHEN!?!?!?!?!

and LL, glad you relate, i actually printed that out and wrote a few more thoughts and plan to read it next time, so t gets the jist of my frustration.

and psychology?? sorry, but it is NOT a consumer friendly business, in my opinion. and in my experience. i have yet to meet one that soley had my best interests at heart. THAT is what i am paying for. now, dbt gal? we shall see. at least she has somewhat an agenda.

i am sick of the tip of the iceberg, one year in, i know there have been different t's, but only one me, and i have covered alot of these bases before.

anger, yes. frustration, yes. rage, yes. (no offense melba, but yes, $2 a minute for the same old stuff at times, the same bs i have already tread through, yes, anger. and, for the most part, chicken sh*t therapists...

LL, yes, they take it as it comes, and say they don't have an agenda, it is just what is top of mind for US that leads the path, generally, when, like you say, surely they know what we need to address that we are blind to (sounds to me more like no advance work on US and what will get US better, under the business wide 'guise' of letting the conversation flow out of our thought process...man, if i would have run my career in sales this way i woulda starved...) you know...the pediatrician doesn't suspect strep throat but patiently wait for you, on the off chance that you'll stick a popsicle stick down your throat to see what is there!! yes, rage. correct...bingo! agh!

jill