Hi BB, I read your 'letter', don't apologise for it, it sounds like you have a huge amount going on. I could relate to your reaction when he said that about thinking too much, his reaction stinks in my opinion. I am real sorry that you are having a tough time with this T. Could you tell him you have lost your trust ? Anyway I am sorry you are having a rough ride, hang in there because you say you don't want to give up in one way.

quote:

I know it seems crazy. I know it sounds bad. But I don't really know what else to do, except stick with my T- since I really feel it is wrong of me to get attached to another T just as much as it was wrong of me to get emotionally attached to him.

Thanks for sharing your session Beebs. One question: What I quoted above... why do you believe that? Why is that wrong?

TN

Mentally retarded? What a horrible joke for your T to make.

I'm sorry you are feeling the relationship is artificial and unemotional. I'm also sorry you are feeling neglected by your T. It almost sounds as though he is trying to push you away into the arms of H to meet your needs. I can see how that would feel badly on your part, but I can also see how T might think this is helpful to you in the long term.

BB - I get the feelings of wrongness, I really do. But, since T and I have both been allowing me to be more childlike and dependent, I won't say it has gotten easier...because, it is actually harder, but I feel more connected to myself through the connection with T. I feel more like a human being, not some sort of input-output machine. I am feeling things I never knew were inside me and it hurts like hell, but it is also precious in a way. And, it makes me a bit sad to know you feel you have to surrender that experience of connectedness in order to just knock out some goals. I am not saying that it is wrong for you to make that choice. Only you can really decide what feels right for your individual situation, so I want to make that clear. I just feel like I'm hearing some confusion on whether that is what you really believe you need or you just doing what you feel some external source has defined for you as right. I do want to say that I think there is a difference between what is right and what is true. I've found myself, throughout my whole life, doing what is right for the simple reason I had been told or knew deep down that it was right...but in doing so, I failed to be true. And really, without dealing with the truth, I found what is right having little meaning in my life. It had meaning in how I interacted with others, but no meaning for me internally. I don't know if I'm making sense here. The way it keeps coming up for me is the spiritual concept of worshiping in Spirit and truth. God is interested in the real us, not us as we are when we're always trying to be good enough, to live up to a certain standard. Grace and real, fulfilling love occur on the terms of allowing our true selves to be seen and acknowledged (scary!). In my case, my parents provided a model that showed me that approaching in the truth of my need was dangerous, wrong and bad. And I learned to abuse and neglect myself to avoid exposing my vulnerability. So, I hope you know I can really relate when I say it makes me sad to hear you feel you have no choice but to subjugate that part of you who truthfully needs care. Is there really no chance of her ever being accepted by anyone? Because, I can accept her, BB. She is perfectly acceptable to me! No matter how needy, how broken, how incapable of being "right." I know this is easy to say from a distance. Still, I am hurting to hear you giving up on her. I don't want to dissuade you, as I know everyone has their own approach that works for their healing journey, but I read so many of the ways you relate to therapy and they resonate with me.

Also, I did want to let you know that from my perspective, your H wanting you to be functional and wanting dinner on the table and your H also wanting you to be OK because he actually cares are not mutually exclusive. My H has been complaining about my lack of functionality a LOT lately, but at the same time, I know for a fact that he cares deeply for my well-being. Everyone is a mix of caring and selfish motives. My H has an easier time verbally expressing critical thoughts than he does caring ones (plus, he sometimes does so in a way that reminds me of my mom), so I often "hear" only judgmental/critical motivations from our interactions...but I know, objectively, the care is there. I cannot say if this is true in your marriage or not, but I hope you can see him wanting to join in as at least potentially a form of caring for you...and maybe discuss your fears of what he "really" means by it.

(((((BB))))) I'm sorry things are always so hard. I understand in my own way. I hope you know that I'm not trying to judge your T or your H or your decision to manage your therapy however is best for you. I just wanted to provide another perspective, because it seems like you are unsure about where you are with this journey. Maybe just take a moment to get your bearings before moving forward?

Not TMI at all, BB. I'm glad you are here processing all this! ((((as many hugs and you can put up with))))

I think you could be onto something about T wanting you to shift your erotic transference to H. He certainly is taking a risk in doing that though. He could end up making you feel rejected and pushed away in the process.

quote:

I think the erotic component is there- I might just be thinking that because I *suspect* T thinks so. Or it might really be there. I admit, shakily- that being cared about by an older man is the only thing that ever made me feel "that way." and I don't know why, and find it disturbing in the extreme. Yeah, I think T is pushing me into my H's arms, probably for this reason. The problem is- my H is like a friend or someone I don't really connect to like that anymore, because while he surely cares about me on some level- I don't believe he has the capacity to be "in love" with me.

Beebs,

This is real fly by as things continue totally insane at work but I wanted to comment on the above quote (which wasn't TMI). Reading this make more clear to me my concern over your T pushing you towards your husband.

The theraputic relationship, ideally, is one in which the field is kept clear so to speak. The T keeps their needs and feelings out of the room which means that you are able to see YOUR needs and YOUR feelings clearly. With you husband, who is NOT your therapist, his needs also come into play which muddies the waters considerably, especially since it sounds like your H has his own share of issues.

You know I was pretty open with my T about the erotic parts of my attraction and I remember being kind of shocked that it seemed really ok with him (not in a "gosh, I'm amazing and oh baby, I know you want this" kind of way ) He told me a couple of times that this was my opportunity to experience sexual desire in a safe relationship. I learned a LOT from being able to actually explore those feelings and not being told to re-direct them elsewhere.
And here you are, identifying what for you, feels like a life-long pattern of only experiencing sexual desire for older men, it's bothering you, there's shame attached and you don't understand it. Wouldn't therapy with an older man be a really safe place to explore and understand those feelings and why you have them? It might be that if you understood why you had them, you could let them go and begin to learn how to experience sexual desire with someone your own age, i.e. your husband (I am hearing that you are feeling like that ship has set off on a world tour, but I use him as an example). I hate to second guess your T but it seems to me that what he is doing is actually counter productive to HIS stated goal.

And I do NOT like how shut down you sound Beebs, you'd had a life time of that. So there's my flyby two cents, take it fwiw and see if any of it fits. I am so sorry though for the pain your find yourself in. ((((Beebs))))

love, Aglet

BB and Monte - Even with my Dad transference stuff, I have sensed the potential that it could go the other way, so I don't think it's all that abnormal. As others have said, those feelings kind of get tested and either they make sense or they don't. I have had erotic transference with previous figures who gave me an fatherly vibe (older men, at least one teacher and one boss), and in very disturbing/exploitative way that I am thinking is related to some other issues I am exploring in counseling right now but that aren't appropriate to this section, because of SA stuff. Anyway, all I'm saying is I don't think it's uncommon and despite having a lot of shame for a long time about some pretty intense past thoughts/feelings around that subject matter, I have been letting go of having any anger at myself around it, thanks mostly to some brave souls here who shared with me having struggled with the same sort of thing and T being utterly unashamed with my sharing those experiences.

I do know that if my transference ever did drift from parental to erotic, it would be very hard for me to share that with T, but mostly because I would fear it would make him feel like he had to be so careful and distance himself. So, I can get why it's scary to address it directly, although it might be a really positive thing to do...even to just say that you're unsure whether or not the feelings are that way and you feel like T thinks they are. I don't know. It's a really rough topic, but I just wanted to validate both of your sharing by putting myself out there in the same way. I know that I have often felt like an alien until some of you guys have identified with my experiences. ((((((Monte and BB)))))))

quote:

I just want to tell you how much it means to have those feeling normalized. I was scared I had some kind of terrible pathology.

Beebs, this is part of what your T should be doing for you. Allowing you to explore and discuss these things and then normalizing it for you. We tend to pathologize so much of what we suffer when in reality it is just arrested development, lack of nurturing as children and nothing so horrible. My T reminds me of this often and sometimes will tease me that I pathologize everything. It is very reassuring to hear from him. He does not deny that I have issues, and ones that go very deep emotionally. but they can be worked through.

I am not surprised you are so shut down emotionally. It is a way of protecting yourself. How can you allow yourself to be vulnerable enough to be honest and open with T when you have to be ready to deflect hurtful things that he says to you and even just the general misattunement. It is only natural to try to suppress your emotions and feelings.

Lastly, I just want to remark on his comments about leaving you crying last time because time was up and now you only have 50 minutes. No T should ever log off on (or shut the door on) a client who is crying and obviously in deep distress. Especially one who does not cry easily at all. That is plain cruel. Who cares if the time is up... it would not kill him to give you an extra 5 minutes to ground you again so you didn't have to sit there so upset staring at a blank screen. My T has kept other clients waiting while I sobbed in his office, needing some time to pull myself together. He told me that all of his clients wait for someone else at some point and need the extra time themselves at some point and so it all evens out in the end. His first priority is taking care of the client in distress. I'm sorry Beebs, but that just made me plain angry.

I will not tell you to leave him because I know how hard that is but at some point you will have to evaluate if he is doing you more harm than good. And good therapy does not leave you so upset, activated and distressed week after week. There should be some sessions where you leave feeling wonderful and connected and lighter and freer and cared for.

I want this to work out for you. I really do. But I am concerned.

Hugs
TN

Ooops BB... we cross posted.

TN

((((Beebs))))
Dear Beebs, I can't add to what has already been written - there's a HUGE amount of love, care, understanding and plain good sense in all everyone's posts!!

quote:

And good therapy does not leave you so upset, activated and distressed week after week. There should be some sessions where you leave feeling wonderful and connected and lighter and freer and cared for.

But TN's comment above resonates with me - you've been activated and sufferring so much for more than weeks now!! It's not right!!

You've grown so much and have such insights but it seems you've hit a brick wall with your T that he's not helping you dismantle at all and may even be adding bricks, bwdik!

BB

If there's any hugging room left after all of those , can I just add a little one from me too.

I am so sorry this is so hard for you, take care,

starfish

Starfishy (Legs)
Do you think I went too far with the hugs???
Here's x10 for you too

This is my third attempt at responding. The first two disappeared. grrr. Let's see how this goes.

BB, Like everyone else here I really hate to see you in so much pain and what makes me even sadder is that you are blaming yourself for shutting down and not being able to talk. Let's just take your T out of it for a minute. Whether or not your T or another T could get you to a place where you could express what was happening inside you, being unable to do that right now is certainly NOT YOUR fault!! It is happening for a reason and a very valid reason. It is where *you* are right now and it does not mean *you* have done anything wrong. Can you just explore that part of it?

Can I also gently echo everyone else in saying that there is nothing wrong with and it is even essential to be attached enough to your T to want things from him that your H can't and shouldn't provide? So many other people have said that H's cannot be attachment figures.

I really understand your fear of losing your T and giving up the hope you have in him. I am so sorry this has been and continues to be so painful for you beebs.

I deeply believe in *you*!!!
seablue

BB,

I would like to just quote everything that BG and SB just said. I couldn't agree more.

(((hugs)))

I wouldn't say that BB. I would think that in any "relationship," therapeutic or not, it is natural to be concerned about what another person is thinking and feeling. However, I don't think it should override your own thoughts and feelings, making his "right" and yours "wrong." Like, any time what he would think and feel conflicts with yours, it isn't necessary for those feelings to be subjugated, because you believe he is more educated, more healthy, whatever other reasons. But, honestly, I care very deeply about what T thinks and feels and how the things I say/think about him would affect him. I think that's quite normal when someone means a lot to us.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
ps- I know I'm not "supposed" to think about what my T would think or feel...

Only in a perfect world. I think we would be classified as sociopaths if we didn't care at all what they think or feel.

(((Beebs)))

quote:

My old posts (the ones I saw before I got too disgusted to read any more) are just like my new ones. Questioning my T, questioning his approach, does he accept my attachment, distrusting him, and all the same exact confusion I have now. confusion...pain. Little growth.

I guess this is why some of us concerned - this has been going on for a long time now!! But BB you have grown a great deal - you're so much more aware and have great insights and are able to recognise some behaviour patterns - that's growth!! And this is in spite of your doubts!! Maybe this is the time for a new T or not, but if being 'stuck' is an indication - idk?!

Could I encourage you to continue talking with us don't entirely cut off - I know getting too many perspectives can be difficult but who knows, one might just hit the nail on the head and resonate with you!

Thinking of you (((Beebs)))

BB - I think I have seen process in how you process, get at what is underneath some of your thoughts and feelings regarding therapy. And I have only been around here two months!

That said, and please take this as very gently said, it pains me to see you in such a battle to get your needs met all the time. And, I realize the battle is with yourself, but I'd like to see your T fighting along side you, helping you to overcome the part that says you are wrong, undeserving, too much, not good enough, etc. I don't think he's actively fighting against you, but it seems almost like he's watching from a safe place as you fight for your life. I'd like you to always feel like you have a T who is "in it" with you. I know you want to blame yourself for not feeling that way, but I don't think that's the case. And it doesn't make him a bad T or you a bad client, but maybe just not the right T. Maybe it's the limit of the phone or the language barrier or his style, but I'd like you to be able to see, overall, a deepening safety in your connection with him. Maybe you do. It is normal to vacillate back and forth and perhaps it is building over time. I just get the sense that you are saying that it is not...and you absolutely deserve it! I won't tell you to leave T, because even if I thought another T would be better for me, I couldn't do it myself. I just want to affirm that your needs are OK and I would expect your T to show you that in a safe, boundaried, consistent way. Again, all gentle here. Passionate, but gentle. ((((((BB)))))))

Just want to totally second what Yaku says here - very much so. And Morgs's encouragement to keep talking - yes, yes, yes.

Good on you for being brave enough to look back over things. ((((BB)))) and it's *hard* to see that things have not progressed as you like. That is NOTHING to feel embarrassed or ashamed about - you have always been a wonderful blessing to this forum (and to me ) and I've always got a huge amount out of reading your insights and struggles. BUT I want better for you, worry that you are not getting the pay-off for your struggles that your hard work warrants. So whatever you do, I am glad to see you 'stepping out of the box' a bit here and reflecting on the overall pattern. Looking back, starting to look forward.

I see changes in you. You are more able to express anger, you are more able to ask for what you need. These things are *really* important. But you are still locked into that terrible existential struggle of whether you are okay by your T or not. Whether you are allowed to exist. I feel that that is really slowing you down in every area, undermining your progress, and I know how badly it hurts you.

I also know you *are* trying something different at the moment, working with weekly sessions, and I absolutely think it's worth seeing how that stabilizes over a period of time. I feel a lot more secure knowing that you are working with this, and knowing too that you are making space for reflection on your progress. I think you are asking too much of yourself if you expect to 'just end it'. I wouldn't want that for you. Nor would I want to see you take a significant break - you have had breaks before and they just leave you in agony.

We've talked about a consult before. If, after staying with the weekly sessions for a certain period, you don't feel any more secure - I would like to just encourage you again to go for a consult session. That's it. I think you absolutely need a sense of being able to go somewhere else safe before you seriously contemplate jumping out of this relationship.

Okay, I just wanted to come back to this question of 'what is containment'. To me containment means working with you to get to a place where the emotions are not overwhelming before you leave or at other points in therapy. It happens in all kinds of ways. It might mean moving the conversation *away* from material that is overwhelmingly triggering when there's already enough stuff on the table. It might mean shifting body posture and lightening the mood towards the end of the session. It might mean reminding you of positives or of your resources before you go. Offering reassurance in certain circumstances, or interrupting a negative thought cycle. Prayer or a touch or a joke at the end of the session. Asking about client plans for afterwards. I feel contained when Manatee comes out to make a new appointment with me at the end.

Does that help at all? It's a hard concept to get a grip on, because what *feels* containing is very much subject to all the things that are going on in a particular moment.

Sending love,
Jones

(((BB))) I'm sorry it is so hard right now.

((((((BB)))))))
No one here is judging you. We are here to support you. Please try to be gentle with yourself.
seablue

((((BB)))) I can relate to those messages, because I am getting them to. Be here as much or as little as feels right to you and we will be here to listen. You are trying to figure things out, not griping! You're doing very hard work. It's OK to admit how hard it is and not have it all figured out yet. And you're OK despite not living up to others' standards (or your perception of their standards). I know it's so hard to be OK with ourselves, so I hope you are able to receive kindness from everyone here. We care! (((hugs)))

I know you all would never judge me. It's me who is judging me, and it's feelings I don't know how to stop, and they feel very true and real to me- but no you guys.

thanks for being there,

BB

BB,

Where you do think your self-judgement comes from? I mean usually, it is one of our parents that instilled that in us. Do you ever find yourself saying judgemental things to yourself that your mother or father said to you growing up?