dear Beebs.

I spent some time now, thinking about your poster and what to reply. First of all: I am sorry you are feeling so lost in all these patterns that you seem to (as long as i understood) wanto overwin, yet feel failing in the attempt to. I am sorry. There is a lot of pain comming across here, but also lots of self-reflection and self- understanding... so i have no real interprets to come up with here. I hope others have! I want to offor my support and letting you know i at least have read your poster and also like to say i think its brave of you to keep post about this here, despite that you feel so emberrassed and maybe guilty(?) for all this. I dont doubt at all that this is a REAL problem. and that you are not just making things up. Does it help knowing that your replies here- DOES good for the forum? and that while you might feel/think you have only spent even more time on your "obsessive" and self-destructive pattern while being here on the computer -you have actually contributed and HELPED people here..- so, its not really just a bad thing, is it? But i know thats not your point, because i understand you also recognize spending all this time here, as a addicction when things gets really bad...And as a sign of, that you are feeling very down, yeah? I relate BB. In a way, maybe we are all here, because we think its good to be a place where we feel allowed to speak about our strugglings and feelings, having the room and space to focus on ourselves, and AVVOID the "real world"...but, there is a *but* here: Because this is also a part of the real world..

quote:

I am trying now, to figure out this problem really honestly, because I simply am too embarrassed currently by this posting to bring it to my T. I just, simply, can't. I think I would die if he ever knew about, that I spend so much time on here.

quote:

i understand why it must be emberrassing to bring it up and why you wont. At least i know I am/was too...It took a looooong time before i dared to, (because i was so emberrassed only by the thought) to tell my T i wrote diary, which was an obsession too, (seriously) that i spent hours doing after each session writing diary. After a year i finally told T about it. But indeed that was a long process to get to that point, and i only managed because i was so tired of keeping that secret, and tired of being burdened by my own shame about it.
About this forum, I actually did tell my T just the other day, that i was spending time here...and yes, that was emberrassing and i also felt shamful about it. I dont know *why* this is so, maybe- when i think about it- i felt kind of pathetic? But thats me, not you. What do YOU imagine your T would think of you *if* you told him about this? would he think less of you? (i`ll bet he would be glad though, that you allowed him- invited him into- your very vulnarable problem..since you spend so much time here, its kind of a part of your daylylife- and those hours spend here are valualbe info to your T, aint it?
and he would be the best one to understand *why* you would spend so much time here, and maybe adress your "avvoiding-issues" (??) and your feelins regard to this...BeeBee, dont mean to talk over your head, i do get, seriously, why you hesitate so strong to let him know. I strongly doubt your T would think any less of you, if you ever told him..most probably just very curious and be glad that you gave him a chance to exploore this with you? And WAY better then i am able to, and with a much greater understanding of what the underlying reasons would be in your case.
Bebee, hang in there, dont worry, its only good if you can just allow yourself to take in, and feel nurtured by this attention and feel supported here, dont blame yourself, or twist it all into something "bad".. (i know, so easy to just say this things *sigh*- !) stop punishing youself, and do whatever helps you and works for you. Whatever it is.

(((beebs)) and in the meantime, i hope you`ll get bunches with more wise words here..

Hi Blackbird,

I read your post ... and I have to let you know how much I completely understand your post .... First of all, don't feel bad at all about your psyche cafe addition .... maybe you need it right now .... and there is sooooo much support on here ... and it gives you a place to feel good about yourself ... because you are sooo compassionate and understanding .... and you've already helped me soooo much .....

I feel the same way about the pain ... when you take away the reason for it, "looking for attention" .... then what's left is that maybe you are just feeling unhappy about your life right now ... I have to tell you that my father always told me I was just looking for attention .... but now I see that what I was really looking for was love ..... and so when I am looking for love and not getting anything, I tell myself, I'm just looking for attention ... but the truth was, not getting love back then hurt like the devil .... and it hurts like the devil now ... except that maybe now, I'm preventing myself from feeling love ... or I've developed inadequate strategies for getting love .....

Because what I am getting from my T and a consult I went on ... is the way I am feeling now .... is similar to another time in my life when I felt the same way .... the problem is, then I couldn't do anything about it .... but now I can ... I guess I am compulsively reacting the same way to my unhappiness now as i did back then .... but now I am older and so hopefully should be able to make different changes ... But then the problem is having the strength to face whatever it is that is difficult for you to face .... So we haven't identified exactly what it is yet that I am unhappy about now .... we'll be working on that coming up ....

And I am thinking Blackbird, that our T's are experts at human behavior and nothing will shock them and they may already suspect that we are spending our time one way or another ... if you take a look at defense mechanisms, they will tell you all the things people do to avoid pain ... .... I have come to the conclusion in my own life that the repetitive, nonproductive things I do are a way to avoid facing some kind of pain ... so please be kind to yourself .... don't beat yourself up so much ..... but take it one step at a time with your T ..... You do seem to trust him ..... I just don't think it's that bad to be addicted to psyche cafe ... think of all the people with addiction problems ... in the scheme of thing, this one isn't so bad ... Hope this helps BB ....

Frog,

Just wondering how your T reacted when you told him (her?) that you spent so much time here ???

BB ... do I remember correctly that you do your therapy online and not in person???

Hi Beebs... I can so hear the pain and confusion and uncertainty in your post. I don't have any magic answers... you know if I did I would wave my wand over you right now... but I want to say that you use the board as a coping mechanism it seems and you could be doing far worse things. What you are doing is reaching out to others for help and understanding while at the same time providing us with empathy and support in times of distress. It's a give and take situation. I have told a few of my Ts that I post on a group support board (not naming it) and none of them have seen it as something "bad". My oldT was very supportive of it saying that it was good I found someplace that was helping me and that I was expanding my world a bit.

Sometimes when I start to get too focused on posting and neglecting other things I made little deals with myself. I will say ..."TN once you have changed the beds you can post again, or if you clean one bathroom this afternoon you can go and check the board". I do work during the week and all my household stuff falls to the weekends and so I have to make these deals with myself or I would get nothing done! It does work and in that way I can do both things in moderate doses. And when I see the clean bathroom and do some posts I feel much better than if I only did one thing.

I think by your writing you come to understand things and work things out in your mind to some extent so this is doing you some good as well.

Hang in there Beebs and talk about all of this as much as you want to without feeling guilty about it. It is what you need for now.

Hugs
TN

HI BB,

Hope you are okay .... Thinking of you tonight ...

Thank you everyone, for helping me with this. I'm sorry that I made it sound like being on here is loserish or bad, by saying that I was trying to prove that to myself...I meant that, in neglecting the duties I am supposed to be doing, and "taking care of myself" instead, rather excessively I might add, I feel loserish or bad...I'm not spending enough time with my kids, that's the real issue at hand. It's controlling me, in ways that are self-destructive. Anything, no matter how good it is in itself, can be "too much." Do you know what I mean. Like, if you ate organic spinach all day long and nothing else, after awhile you'd get pretty sick, probably. That's really all I mean. I'm seriously not trying to say that I think posting here is bad...I think it's a great thing. But I just do not know the meaning of "time to do something else." That's what I mean by addicted. It's quite extreme.

So I guess that's why I am trying to figure it out, without my T's help. so goofy. I really should talk to him about it, but I'm scared, it is not out of the realm of possibility that as an internet T he could come here and look it all up...so what is the secret I am tryng to keep from my T, becomes the "real" therapy question. I guess I am afraid, that if he were to ever figure out how much I have figured out about therapy, he would think I have no problems, I don't need him, and dump me faster than I can say "boo." The thing I fear most with my T, is letting him know how much I know. I admit it...I play dumb. It's self-preservation!! Not that I think I know a ton, but, alot more than he thinks I do, I'd wager.(And I say trust is building??)

sigh. What is going on with me?

draggers it is soooo good to see you! I have missed you a lot. Thank you for you kind and compassionate words to me, you really helped me with your sweet kindness. I really relate to the sense that others just do NOT get what is going on. I think I have started to find it so painful that I've just withdrawn from all the people I used to connect with. I have nobody left! Even one of my sisters, the one I still was friends with we were really close, and talked on the phone, she kinda "raised" me...and she doesn't wnat to talk to me anymore, is fed up with my depression and just wants me to take meds and "get happy." I can't talk to anybody about what is going on inside, nobody, except you folks and my T, and sometimes it gets really really hard! All my friends are so successful and together, that really talking about stuff with them is just not an option. Besides, the main problem is that, enough is never enoguh!

Rio, thank you for posting your support, that really helps. Just to know someone understands, you know?

Wise Froggy, your reply makes me think and kind of do therapy, ask myself the questions that I need to ask myself some more, and feel heard, too...thank you Froggy. I thank you for asking me the questions, that is always such a huge help. You ask, why it is so emabrrassing, I think I would be embarrassed if my T understood more deeply how obsessed I am with therapy, with him, and also, I am terrified, just terrified of him finding out that I know a lot about it, have some knowledge now. As I say, I tend to play dumb a little bit because I am so scared.

TN, thank you for responding...I like the ideas of making a deal with myself...maybe that will give me a push in the right direction. And thank you for the invitation to talk about it as much as I need to, dear TN, that really means a lot to me. I feel like I need to talk for an eternity, and nobody on this earth could ever pay attention that long.

Liese, thank you too, for your caring and supportive reply. there is a lot of wisdom there. It's like you say, I've developed inadequate strategies for getting love, now you are sounding like my T. He always is on about love, love love! That what I really need is love and all of that, and that I have to learn to ask for what I need. It's just hard in RL, because there is a fallout. Being with people in realitime is seriously painful!!

I have not adequately replied to you guys, I wnat to tell you that your replies are helping me tremendously. Maybe, I shoudl print them out so that I can read them *off* the computer, that is an idea that just occurred to me, then when I am feeling lonely, I could look at them while doing other things and feel not so alone. I may actually try that.

gigantic hugs to all and each one of you,
((((Rio)))) thank you for being the first one to write back to me. thank you so much for helping me with this. I am going to try, sleep a little bit. Maybe tomorrow I will conquer this a little bit.

Love,

Beebs

Feathery one,

I really understand your post and agree with what othrs have said about this being a safe place where others just understand. For me too in my life there are very very few people who really understand what I'm going through, my H tries desperately hard to and is very caring and compassionate but even he says it's hard to fully understand.

My problem here is that I really don't have the time to read and post always. I work full time and silly hours to boot, and find that because I seem to be a painfully slow typist, every post takes a long time. I look at you 'long posters' in awe as your typing speed must be impressive!!! I wish I had more time to contribute more, so thank you BB that you and others are there with your more lengthly, thoughtful posts.

And it doesn't matter if you ask the same questions over again - each time you get slightly different responses and that might help just a little every time with your understanding.

I am glad BB that you were able to post this - you can write as little and often as you want and know each post will be welcome

starfish

quote:

Maybe, I shoudl print them out so that I can read them *off* the computer, that is an idea that just occurred to me, then when I am feeling lonely, I could look at them while doing other things and feel not so alone. I may actually try that.

quote:

yeah, maybe you should try this out Beebee? in that way the suppert and understanding you seek out here will "be with you" also *off* the computer--you can read it, while doing other stuff at the same time...Thanks- i might do tis myself some time! fwitw: I do understand your conflict/problem regard to spending so much times here when you feel like you are neglecting other important things- like spending time with your children more- i didnt meant to go force onto you some kind of "no, your posting is only good"- stuff..
and about letting your T know- or NOT know in your case, i also (this is a Wow- does other people o that as well?) tend to pretend i am a lot dumber and dont know things- about therapy- with my T.. i like him to have the role as the one whom knows, and i am scared too, that T will figure out how deep all this passions of mine about therapy and knowlidge about it are..I dont know why though. not really. And this fear was alot stronger a year ago. Now i do feel alot more secure about showing T that do know/undestand a great deal about therapy-stuff too, and believe it or not; T hasnt abandoned me nor punished me for it yet I still count as a patient, no matter how much understanding i have of things, -knowligde itself nevers dismisses us from feeling in pain, you`no?

Have a god day, Beebs. sorry for rambling abit on your thread here...

BB .... But why do you have friends that are soooo together??? Maybe you need to find a few friends you can really talk to ....I just bring that up because I tend to do that ... I pick friends who seem to have it all together and then i idealize them .... But sometimes I find that if I self-disclose a little, they will too ... and they are just acting all together .... but they aren't as together as it seems .... I actually just had a really nice night out with a friend and confessed how bad things have been in my marriage ... and then she revealed things about her ... and I left feeling soo good ... like we got a little closer ... it was really nice .... althhough I do have to say that her husband walked out on her 16 years ago and she would like to find someone .... so I knew when I made my disclosure that she was probably not in the best place in her life .... so it was risky, my self-disclosure ... but not as risky as if I had revealed it to someone else who isn't aware of or acknowledges their pain ....

You were reading my thread on working on transference??? And when my T didn't call me in response to my letter, how threatened I felt??? How unsafe in the world??? The truth is, I've never felt safe .... not in my family of origin ... i guess not now ... and my T provides me with that bit of safety that I need .... maybe it's the same for ... maybe you grew up in a world where it wasn't safe to reveal how unhappy you really are ....??? I'm just guessing .... because I sooo relate to your whole post ... even the stuff about the kids ... I'm always feeling like I'm not giving enough to the kids, doing enough for the kids ... worrying about the kids ..... it's this constant source of guilt .... but I'm realizing lately they if I let them struggle a little on their own, they will be stronger in the long run, develop that self-soothing stuff I've seen written about around here ....not in a cruel way, but I've had a tendency to make myself completely available to them ... and they rely on me so much, which I wind up resenting because I don't get any time for me ... either to be alone or to have fun ....

But listen to yourself ....dont' ignore how you feel ... your behavior is trying to tell you something ....

And BB ... I thought I'd add that I find it interesting that you're afraid to tell your T that you know more than you do .... I suspect and maybe I'm wrong that part of my trust problem is that I didn't believe my parents as a child .... kids aren't stupid and they pick up nonverbal cues ... I have clear memories of my parents telling me one thing but knowing they were lying ..... they probably were never very direct and lied about a lot of things ... maybe not to hurt me but because it's the way they were .... but in the course of growing up, I decided they couln't be trusted ... and maybe that's why I don't believe my T when he tells me things ...maybe your parents were the same way?

I guess I should just give it some time before I hit the reply button because I thought of something else ... and now I can't remember what this really important thing was but I will add the following???

quote:

being with people in real time is seriously painful

why BB? why??? It shouldn't be sooo painful ....

Oh BB ... I just remembered the other thing I was going to say ... i think in your original post you said something about feeling guilty about not sharing this with your T? And I remember someone else was having a problem when I first joined, who was it???? Their T accused them of hiding things?? Of lying? Of being deceitful??? The cult one/?? Who was that??? I was new at the time so I can't remember???

Anyway, what I thought then and what I am really starting to believe is why do we have to share everything with our T's? Why should we feel guilty for not sharing things? Isn't it okay to have a space of our own? A psychological space of our own???? Same goes for my H ... do I have to share every thought? Am I not entitled to have a private world of my own? Of course, not too private ... but you know what I mean ...

Anyway, I don't know if you can relate but .... I thought I'd throw it out there ....

Froggy, Starfish and Liese...thanks for coming back and reply to me.

Starfish, thank you for the support, and especially you being so busy and finding it hard to type. (((((Starfish)))) It means a lot to me that you would post here. Yes, my husband doesn't really understand what is going on for me, either. Recently I've made a bit of headway in opening up to him and trusting him with a bit more, again. But it's the old problem, like, he's just too busy for me and all my troubles and problems. He can give me some of his time, but it's never "enough." He has a life- I don't. And, apparently, I have a tank that is impossible to fill.

Frog:

quote:

I still count as a patient, no matter how much understanding I have of things, -knowligde itself nevers dismisses us from feeling in pain, you`no?

I guess I have a tendency to think I can "cure" myself- and should. I always think that T secretly thinks this. I don't want to give him "ammo" because I think he will stop caring. It's been very hard to let go of that notion and let another see my pain. My pain feels like ghost pain anyway- it's hard enough for me to see it, let alone try and show it to my T. I don't know if that makes sense. Thanks for getting me to think, Froggy, it's so helpful, just to have a place to pu these thoughts and get a little feedback. A couple of hours a month in T just isn't doing it for me.

Liese, thank you for taking the time to write your thoughts to me, and asking me so many thought provoking questions. I have a lot of successful friends because of my husband, who is a well-connected guy and has a nice profession, and has lived here for many years. I have a very difficult time making friends of my own, and I don't feel comfortable with *anyone.* I am thousands of miles away from my family which is in some ways a good thing, but it does make me feel very cut off, since they don't care about maintaining contact.

I too have a *lot* of guilt around my kids. I can see that I am doing *ok* for them, but I am not satisfied. Obviously I attend to their needs, but I want it to be better than that. I want to be in a position where their needs come before mine, and that it doesn't deplete me. For the first while I was giving all to them, and when my son was born I just completely crashed. I find I am always with them. However, I want to be able to teach them the tools that I was never taught, and *how* to care for themselves, instead of either doing every little thing for them, or backing off too much/giving up.
idk, Liese, my parents were in a vacuum for me when I was a kid, they didn't give a **** about me-I was pretty much on my own- I raised myself. I didn't do a very good job, which is why I deal with a lot of this self-discipline stuff, now, I guess.

And I guess the reason I feel it's painful to be around people varies, person-to-person. It just *is* -lately, since connecting more with my *feelings*, I always end up in tears after contact with people outside my home. (And often after contact with people *inside* my home.) That's why I tend to just stay in and not see anybody or answer the phone, I guess, now that I'm not as emotionally shut down as I was. idk. I guess I feel immensely vulnerable when I'm around people, and I used to be so good at covering that up and functioning with a bright smile, and taking care of everybody else's feelings- and never feeling what I was feeling. It's just not so easy to do that anymore. So, I stay away. For example, I have (had?) a close friend I spoke with weeks ago, who asked me point blank "are you still seeing Dr. .... " When I said yes, she just kind of said hmph, and changed the subject and quickly hung up the phone, and I've been avoiding her calls ever since, because it put me into a tailspin. Same with my sister. I don't know how to connect with people and still be "who I am." If that makes sense. It's just gotten to be too hard, and I've become very reclusive since uncovering these feelings. I feel unacceptable to others. Completely.

As far as not tellingmy T stuff, well, how can he help me with it if I do not tell him...that is all I am thinking. He can't help me if I keep it inside.

ok, off the soapbox. I am going to go and make me to do something right now. I am going to try, thanks for listening, and letting me talk about on here.

BB

BB ... that was a completely heartfelt and honest answer ...... I can't reply in full now because I have some kid stuff to do but I will reply later ... Feel better

Thanks, Liese. It's just good to have a place to talk about all this, I guess. Sometimes it's just like, my normal is SO abnormal, but most of the time I can't even see it. Then when I DO see it, I want to hide and give up on the hope of ever leading a normal life. All those buried feelings that are coming out now have alot to do with spending decades pretending that everything was normal to myself, and now that I feel, or see stuff more honestly, I feel completely unacceptable. My T spent a lot of time getting me to "accept" how "unacceptable" I really do feel. Now I feel it. Boy do I feel it. Is this progress?

BB ... You are not alone ... I too have spent decades pretending everything is okay .... can you explain the completely unacceptable thing a little more????

hey beebs, i just had a thought..Due to your thing about spending so much time on the computer...As, in your case, you are in therapy ON the computer- so i`ll bet that makes your "relation" to the computer even stronger- since it might remind you of your T..maybe you`re feeling closer to your T when spending time on net? (=forum)? Just a thought..And it would make sense, if the computer/net has got some kind of symbolic meaning to you, because its so relatet to where you see your T. and the only place you can see your T... I would go and haunt down my T`s house/office in order to feel closer, but you cant do that right? so in order to remove the distance between you, spending time on the very thing that feels as your "therapy-space" would be a very understandable thing to do... I might be way off here..

Froggy, you are spot on. That is exactly what it is. I'm sure, because this computer addiction only started after I started therapy, and only got "out of control" after we started to meet on the computer. hmm. That is exactly what it is. It gives me the illusion of being close to him, I guess. What should I do? It's just another coping mechanism, different from the ones I usually have. Does it mean I should quit therapy with my T? I don't know if I can...

Liese, I guess it is just, that for example, I have one friend who is in a depression too. Her house is always spotless, she gives beautiful parties for her kids, involes them in many outside activities...and this is someone who is also in therapy for depression. She has made comments to me like "We just do the best we can...you're doing ok, and, you don't drink, you don't smoke, so those are the basics." heh. wellll... you get the picture. It's stuff like that. and other things. just my messy house, my completely falling apart life, long periods of social isolation, etc. and etc.- unacceptable. I just exist.

BB

I don't know if I should have said any of that.

dang no deletion policy I self-imposed.

BB please ... no explanations ... you are talking to someone who is coming from the same place ..... my house isn't perfect either and it eats at me every day .....

I don't want to just exist anymore ....BB ... I don't ... so I have to figure out what to do ... it's got to be a balance of the needs ... it can't be all about the kids happiness ... or all about my husband's happiness ..... there has to be more balance, i guess ..... I have to fit in the equation somehow .... You too BB???

But I am amazed at Frog's insight ... that was amazing ..... and can I ask, how do you do therapy online????

BB ... I've always been shy and making friends isn't easy for me either ..... but my T encourages me to keep trying because having close friends that you can talk to and really be yourself with is really important in life .... All the studies show that the kids function better when Mom is functioning better .... so to use the ole oxygen mask analogy .... maybe a little more BB time????

Going off to a 2 hour spin class tonight ... wish me luck!

Thank you Liese...I didn't mean to ignore your reply, I just got distracted. I think that in fact, the answer is *a little less* BB time. But I appreciate the caring place your suggestion is coming from.
And with that, I am off to take a little break from BB time, and try to do some things that I should be doing. Take care,

BB

BB, i have been so in my own hogwash, i have not read your post. but, i read it, and hear what you are saying so clearly.

proving yourself to be as bad as others, parents, and i gather you project others, feel you to be. that is the interanl paradox?? why would a competent person like you, be so affixed on proving them right??

you are singing my song. and, what i have come to realize, is, there IS some gain in it for us. either that being lazy and the recurring bad feelings just feel so comfortable...like going home? i don't know.

depression can sure take the logic out of why we do what we do, but, there is an unconsciousness to the hook that i think needs explored.

some of mine is habit, i think.

bb, your addiction to here, i have it too. but, what i am trying to do, is reward myself with a certain amount of time here. one thing the dbt stresses, is i avoid doing what i need to do, and then feel guilt which self perpetuates the bad feelings about myself. i know that is a no-brainer, but, i have tried, for $125 and hour, to embrace that thought, and have gotten some things done around this nut house. not much, but, enough that i can know i did something. and, more time with the kids, too, is hard at times. as hard as it is to admit that, it is hard. they stress me as i care so much. here, it is just comfy. stakes are low.

but bb, i am coming to realize that some of mine is a life phase change...teenagers, menopause....a dreadful combination!!

not to entirely normalize it, but, to those of us that are more sensitive and perhaps depression-ish, these issues, combined as you said with uncovering the lies of your own childhood, all these things come crashing in on us...not that we are parellel on this, but, i guess what i am saying, is, life is hard, sometimes. mental pain is very REAL. i know there is a balance between cutting ourself some slack in tough times, and operating full on, as your friend does, but, finding that balance seems to be the sought after key. most days i barely keep my 'car' on the road. yesterday i was in the ditch, and drug my t down with me.

i just never know who will wake up in the am!!

lost post to tell you, i am right there with you, and don't have an answer, but, look for me in the ditch as well, and just know, you aren't the only one. i know you know that.

boy, i should delete this, i post on others so little as i have so LITTLE that helps, other than company in the 'ditch of life'....i guess all i have, really, is a hug~

jill

Liese, I am so sorry. I posted when I was in a bad place, and I hope that you know that your reply to me was appreciated. Yes, me too, Liese. You are right, there needs to be a balance we can find...somehow, kids, husband, self, and for myself God has to fit in there more than He currently is right now, I've become really disconnected from my faith again. It all seems to go hand in hand. Liese you are curious about my internet therapy, and it seems that, for some reason I keep avoiding your questions...I am sorry about that. I do therapy online because my T is not in the same country as me. I chose him after doing a search online, because of a specific set of qualities that I was looking for in a therapist and I didn't think I would find another T who would fit the bill, it was really *him* that I wanted to counsel me- so I went with him (was actually surprised that he accepted me as client, since he seems top-notch, a very well-known T in his circles)I thought a few session would set me striaght, and "phone counseling" seemed like an ok option to me. I knew nothing about how "real" therapy works, had no idea what transference was, attachment- none of it. Just thought, well, this will be nice, he will give me some advice, and I will take it, and then I will be fine." T even has a disclaimer in his initial contract stating that therapy may lead to deepr levels of pain than a person is aware of, and so on. I thought, oh, that's for people who have serious problems and really bad pasts. I should be fine! ha,ha. I developed transference very quickly, like the first conversation, I was glomp, attached. Gradually after about a year, T mentioned we could meet on the webcam, and that is what we have been doing ever since, except for one unbelievably awful session when I came back from visiting my family after three years away, and T said it might be easier for me to talk on the phone instead of seeing him, so I agreed with that suggestion...and felt like I was talking to my worst mightmare the whole time. It's not the best way to do therapy in a situation like mine. But, I am "weak" -so I stay, in this very imperfect situation. My T is helping me, and my husband says I should stay in therapy with him, so I do.

jilly, thanks...you are spot on with so much of this. yes, a no brainer that it self-perpetuates self-hatred to avoid doing the things that we need to and should do, and maybe for 125 dollars an hour a bit easier to embrace...you are funny! I've often had the same thought...for how much I pay my T, you'd think I'd ever do anything he suggests? I need him to be SO explicit with me...if it's not a "cammand" I just don't seem to even hear it. And he doesn't *do* commands. But nobody ever told me to do anything, so being left with what feel like "suggestions" just doesn't seem to work that well for me. jilly, my problem is not that my parents didn't think I was good enough...it's that they truly didn't seem to even notice or care that I existed- and still don't. In my world harsh treatment came as a relief.

Today I did a few things. Some of them are supposed to be fun. My big problem is that lately I am finding it extremely difficult to leave the house, again. So, it's just soooo easy to keep coming here, the computer is just sitting there...calling me..."nice people are there...nice people who care...come to the computer, BB..." I actually asked my hubsnad at one point if we could just get rid of the blasted thing, and then he reminded me that he needs it to be here for his work, and that I need it for therapy, and that getting rid of it is just not practical in so many ways, and the underlying message is that I am going to have to learn to say no to myself, by myself, and without support. And beleive me, I am almost always by myself. But the reality is that it's some kind of existential problem, that I do not see the meaning or value of my life...in spite of the fact that I profess belief- most of the time my belief ends up being more intellectual assent, it is just what makes the most sense to me- than any kind of emotional involvement, except for brief and obvious periods of histrionics...which saddens me. Or should sadden me.

I think you are right, it is just like going home, the doing things that will let the bad feelings perpetuate. ahhhh, sweet avoidance, denial, and despair- why do I embrace them? It's like they are more a mom to me than mine will ever be! Feeling some anger here, which is very unusual for me! Is this progress?
I'm just kidding myself when I think I have so much figured out, or that I have any input to give. The reality is that emotionally I'm just a kid who doesn't really know how to be a parent to my own kids. I just try to copy what I've seen good parents do. I'm so tired of being emotionally stunted and "intellectually astute" as my T would say. Blech. At least, facing the truth might free me up a bit to grow the other half of my brain?

I think the thing that bugs me the most...is that I find it so hard and painful to connect with my kids... that really bites. why should it be a "chore" to connect with the sweetest people on earth to me? That *really* kills me. My T says that it's because of my childhood- he seemed to think it's cause my kids trigger me constantly or something- just by being with them and caring for them, and that's why I find it all -my life- so hard. sheesh. great. lucky kids. I'm trying not to do it...the same thing that was done to me...but I'm doing it whether I want to or not, because of my weakness in not *embracing* this pain. It's really this pain that I *should* be embracing, not these dang coping mechanisms and defenses. It just sucks that the things and people that *should* feel good, source of love, support, give and take- actually feel so painful. Why is that? And why can't I *just do it?* Just Love them- even without *emotional rewards?* since that is so clearly, what *has* to happen?



sorry for the spew...jill your hug is awesome. By being so transparent and honest with us, you really give people the freedom to speak their minds- you know that? That is a real gift to us. You are a sweetheart.

BB

Hi BB,

I'm sorry I haven't replied to you on this thread sooner than now. This is a pretty lengthy response...just a warning.

quote:

was actually surprised that he accepted me as client, since he seems top-notch, a very well-known T in his circles

I'm just curious - who would ou have expected your T to take on as a client if he didn't accept you? It seems to me that, for you, this in itself (your T taking you on as a client) was incredibly therapeutic. It probably planted that first seed of attachment...?

quote:

In my world harsh treatment came as a relief.

This is a shot in the dark, but do you think that maybe the harsh treatment from your parents that seemed to be one of the few times you didn't feel invisible to them is something that you now reenact on yourself through your harsh inner critic? Perhaps you internalized that harshness, because it was the only thing that seemed real to you at the time. But the problem is that part of you still feels and believes that you are invisible, so all you're left with is a ruthless inner critic and an invisible victim.

quote:

But the reality is that it's some kind of existential problem, that I do not see the meaning or value of my life...in spite of the fact that I profess belief- most of the time my belief ends up being more intellectual assent, it is just what makes the most sense to me- than any kind of emotional involvement, except for brief and obvious periods of histrionics...which saddens me. Or should sadden me.

Oh, BB...this really resonates with me. I have a deep desire to want to feel and trust in God, but the kicker is that it requires feeling and connection. In all honesty, I feel a very deep inadequacy when it comes to the Bible, church, God, etc. And so I stay away from church (as in, I believe in God, but I've given up for the time being to try and establish a feeling relationship with God when I can barely even feel my own human emotions) in an attempt to not face my inadequacy. At this point, I just believe He's there. It all just perpetuates this cycle - if I don't really recognize that I'm living for myself, for some goal I want to achieve, and I feel utterly incapable of living for God, then what is the point? You have such a desire, BB, to get to know God - it may seem like it's only intellectual at this point, but you are so devoted to it (however superficial it may feel) that it seems like, with time and with progress in therapy (which you are making), you will internalize all of your intellectual knowledge and you'll be able to use that for emotional involvement.

quote:

And why can't I *just do it?* Just Love them- even without *emotional rewards?* since that is so clearly, what *has* to happen?

Obviously, I don't have kids, but I think that everything we do is always for an emotional reward, whether we choose to believe that or not. You desperately want to connect with your kids so that you can know that they are getting what you didn't, and of course that would be painful and triggering! The whole reason why therapy is so hard is that it breaks down these cycles that have been stuck in families for generations, because parenting styles get passed down through generations, too. I understand how hard it would be to have to break that cycle on your own and try to give your kids what you didn't have and only knowing what to give them by what you see other parents do rather than from direct modeling from your parents. But we all prefer to choose the most pleasurable option - and I have no doubt that when you're able to truly feel the connection that you've established with your kids, that will then be the most pleasurable thing for you. Yet, just like everything (especially everything in therapy) it is a process...try to be gentle with yourself. Simply the desire to connect with your kids proves to me that you are an exceptional mother and are the complete opposite of your parents.

Although we all have our weaknesses, I don't think that you not embracing your pain is one of them. In my view, you have these coping mechanisms and defenses so that you can try and be there, even a little bit, for your kids. It seems like, as the pain has gotten worse for you, you've had even more trouble connecting with your kids. This is completely understandable, and it also explains why, even as the pain gets deeper, you are still hanging on to your defenses. Because they are, literally, the last line of defense against the pain. And it's such a consuming pain, BB, because there's so much love and care that you were deprived of as a child, and the realization of what's missing is so painful.

And just one last thing - and take this with a huge grain of salt if you want. If you find that you are really, really worried that your kids are suffering negatively right now, what if they were to talk to someone? Perhaps that could help you know what's going on in their world, even just a bit, while you are struggling to connect enough to gain the same information. I'm not saying at all that your kids need therapy, but maybe for yourself, this could help you gain some insight into their worlds.

I was about to post this and then realized that I never even commented on your whole reason that you posted this thread. I guess I kind of have another suggestion that expands upon Frog's, though it may be completely off, so don't hesitate to tell me so! And I also hope that this doesn't trigger you or put you in a worse place. I guess I just want to be completely honest with you, because you are suffering so much, and I want so badly for you to get all of the help and care that you both need and deserve.

I think that another possible explanation for your 'addiction' to the computer and to this forum is to try and find what it is that you aren't - and can't - get out of online therapy. To read about other people's interactions with their Ts in person, safe touch, etc. This is a bit of a pathetic comparison, but when I was in therapy with my old T, there were things that people would say on here that would both make me feel warm inside and make me long for the same thing. But no matter how badly I longed for it, I kept wanting to read more, wanting to know that that was something real, and maybe that could be real for me. But then again, I never believed that it could be real for me, because I wasn't getting that.

For example, I remember reading about some of the great, attuned moments some people had with their Ts. Like, their T leaning forward and looking them in the eye, holding their hand, giving them a hug, etc. I longed for that, because that implied such a deep, trusting relationship, and it seemed to me that those things were imperative in the process to reach that level of depth. I knew, however, that the chances of me ever reaching that were slim, especially with the 10 session limit (per academic year) I had. At the same time, I kept coming back here to read more about it, because it fascinated me that that sort of thing existed in other therapeutic relationships. But since I never believed that it could ever be real for me, I didn't even consider ever having the bravery to look off-campus for another T, because I thought I'd still never get what others had. It ended up taking a very hard, triggering group therapy session that prompted me to do it, but I was completely petrified. And even though I had only met with my T for ten sessions, I did like her (even though I guess I never really trusted her that much) and I didn't think I'd like anyone else that much. It took several sessions with my current T, too, to know that I had made the right decision.

I know in a post to me recently you mentioned that you didn't want to think about whether or not your T touches his clients in person. However, I also remember, farther back, that you said that it doesn't trigger you to read about others' experiences with that. Do you think that this is the reason why? It may be easier to feel the indirect warmth that you get from reading others' experiences with touch, but to think to much about it is to beckon that feeling of complete longing. And since you can't get what you long for, you keep coming back here to experience what warmth you can get.

Anyway, I really hope that none of this put you in a deeper place of pain, BB. I'll delete anything or everything if you want me to.

So many hugs.

Kashley...this post is brilliant...don't delete a word of it please? I need to read more of this, again, before I can respond. I just wanted to say that, quickly- because I have to go right now. thank you SO much sweetie.

BB

BB ... no need to apologize ... no harm done ... no offense taken .... I didn't realize I was asking a question that was difficult for you .... I guess I was kind of thinking the same thing .... I am finding that I kind of use the forum to figure things out because I've always done everything on my own .... and saying the hard things to my T in person is really really difficult for me .... but I guess I am realizing that it seems to be essential for trust-building .... that I say the really really hard things to him, and hopefully not get burned ... we haven't gotten to the really really hard stuff yet but I think it's coming ....... so I guess I was thinking maybe that had something to do with your addiction ... it's where you connect with your T but maybe it's not enough anymore ....????

And i totally hear you about not wanting to leave the house ... that's what I've been doing the past couple of weeks .... because I've realized I don't feel safe anywhere .... it all started when I started having problems with my T and I lost my sense of safety in the world ... (he does provide me with an incredible amount of safety, I am just realizing) ... and i didn't feel safe in my house as a kid .... and I'm not feeling safe now.... it's not that my husband is a bad person, he's not ... he's actually one of the nicest people I know ... but he had a really bad childhood and can be a little emotionally erratic .... but I'd been stuffing that because that's what I've done my whole life ..... and so life with him is life on a roller coaster ..... but he has to be the one who sorts it out ... Wow ... I can't believe i figured that out this weekend ... it feels so huge to me!!!!

Anyway, BB ... lots of love and hugs .... sorry if I hit a nerve ... didn't mean to ....

Beebs I’ve been reading this thread and wanted to reply for quite a while, but have been having problems about what to say that could even be remotely useful to you. So on balance I think I’ll write what comes up for me about my experience when I read your words, and maybe that will mean something to you, or maybe it will be totally alien. In either case want to wish you well and hope that you find some peace in amongst all the demons of self doubt and self loathing that are sitting in your head.

So ok - things never being enough. Well that’s just it for me - my need is so overwhelming and so huge that I KNOW that whatever I get from anyone isn’t even going to make a dent in it, let alone come anywhere near to being enough. The funny thing is that even though I know this, I still wait and expect and hope and long for it to be met. And the more I do get from someone, the more I want (demand almost). All my adult life I accepted that this need was something bad and wrong with me, that I wasn’t supposed to need anymore, that I was an adult and adults don’t get needs like that met (love, being wanted, praise, encouragement, being seen as good special important wonderful etc etc) we’re supposed to be in the business of giving instead...

What I learned (and I’m indebted to this forum for it) is that having the need is ok, is normal natural perfectly understandable especially in terms of never having had it met as a kid - but that the task is not to either get rid of it (impossible) or to turn myself inside out trying to get as much of it met as I can (also if not impossible at least woefully inadequate) - but rather to own the need and feel the pain of its being unmet and (as AG always so beautifully puts it) mourn the loss of its never going to be met (sorry bad English there). This I found is impossible alone. That the way it works (for me anyway) is to have a constant reliable and caring other (a T basically) who can embody the object of the need and sit with me while I go through all the rage hate frustration anger demands all the way through to loss pain and grief, and out the other side. At least that’s the theory, but it resonates so deeply with me that I can’t see it as not working. Lol all I have to do is find a T who gets that.

And this need as well, I think I can relate it to what you are calling ‘pyschcafe addiction’. I spend hours on here and I don’t begrudge myself a single moment - I GET so much from the wonderful people here, the huge amount of support and caring and sympathy that is so evident in every post and I really feel listened to here - unlike in real world - that it goes a long way to assuaging some of my need (not nearly enough of course, oh no nothing is ever enough! lol). And I’m learning all the time from other people and their stories - learning things that are really helping me - I’ve taken in so much more these last few months than all the years of reading and thinking and introspection before. Don’t know if that’s any help with your fears about spending too much time here, just trying to say that maybe you need the psychcafe at the moment and that it’s filling a very important need in you - so try not to see it as something negative or counterproductive?

Proving to yourself that you are bad in the way you perceive yourself to be - hm what I’m going to say probably doesn’t relate to how you feel at all but well, it’s what comes up for me reading your words, so I’ll write it anyway and hope maybe something in it will make sense to you.

I’ve spent a lot of my life knowing I am bad - emotionally experientially and cognitively - I ‘know’ that I am bad and how I am bad and that core belief sits there totally unchanged since it first arrived. I’ve equally spent most of my life desperately trying to prove to myself that I AM NOT bad - totally unsuccessfully. Because for every good thing I might come up with about myself, or that someone else might offer to me, I automatically ‘prove’ that it’s not true, that I really am bad.

Yes there’s a certain amount of safety and comfort in the familiarity of it, and maybe it’s a form of control - in that it’s a way of pre-empting the judgements criticisms and rejections of others (whence the me-as-bad belief came from in the first place!) Nobody can judge me as harshly and as vilely as I judge myself, because I’m the only one who can see ALL the bad in me (lol though that doesn’t stop me getting scared that everyone else can see it too) - so if it’s me doing the judging then I can be pretty sure that no-one else can come up with even harsher or more self-destroying judgements than I’ve already thought of. A perverse kind of safety in that. Not that I would recommend it to anyone else - it’s actually intolerable to live with this amount of self condemnation and self hate. Which is why I’m forced to endlessly try and prove that it’s not true, which only increases the judgements which increases the need to prove it’s not true and so on...

quote:

having permission to feel, would mean that I now get to feel my real feelings of feeling like a worthless piece of garbage

Oh Beebs - this is what came up for me so intensely and mind reelingly horribly when I was seeing psychoT. I too like you thought that having permission to feel what I feel would mean the known feelings, like clean anger, joy, grief, tears - instead I found that what was coming up was shame, self hate, self loathing, totally impotent rage, huge fear - all the feelings that I thought - ‘if only I could get in touch with my ‘real’ feelings I wouldn’t experience this garbage anymore’. It was all so intense and so black and plunged me into real despair that I thought something is wrong here this can’t be right. And finally worked out that actually, this IS what I feel, and the sooner I stop running away from it and start going into it (in safety of course with who I thought was a good strong consistent T) the sooner I’ll come out the other side feeling a whole lot better. It came as a real shock to me and at the same time, finally I saw hope, that instead of having to run hide squash control ignore and deny all these anti-me feelings, that actually they contained the ‘good’ me that I’ve been trying so hard to find.

Hm don’t know if that makes any sense at all. I hope you don’t think I’m preaching at you, and if I’ve totally missed the point of what you have been expressing I’m sorry - if it’s any consolation to you, my writing out the stuff above has actually helped clarify some things for me - so you’ve helped me by starting this thread.

I’ve only really responded to your first post and I see you’ve elaborated a lot more on what you were expressing, but seeing as how I’ve already written a tome I won’t go on anymore (phew!)

Beebs I hope you are doing ok. Sending you hugs and sympathy.

LL

wow,...unfortunatley, I can't reply right now to all of your wonderful replies, but I promise I'll be back when I get the chance! You guys are so sweet.

Love,

BB

Hi Beebs
Forgive me for not posting earlier but truthfully it was hard to know what I could offer but having read all the very insightful and helpful posts you probably have enough to 'intellectualise' about so I'm just going to offer my care and a nice L O N G hug (about 10 mins should do it!)
xx
Morgs

Beebs, sorry I dont have anything I can offer, I'm so in the same place, different circumstances, but same feelings. I’ve been thinking about you a lot, hope you are doing okay. I wish I had more to say

I want to tell you *all* that I really appreciate your replies and help. I've been very, very down and confused and just in a terrible place all week. Actually for longer, for some weeks. No matter what I did or didn't do, thought, felt, etc. it was "so wrong." It's how I get sometimes, and what prompted this thread. But I've managed to pull out of it for now, thank God, with the help of my SD, and my husband, and a friend on here, too. Because of this "pulling out" and restarting, I hope you can all understand that I can't really re-visit and respond without putting myself back in there...does it make sense? I want to stay in this relatively good place, and if I go back and respond to all the wonderful caring replies, I will end up right back where I was, thinking about it, it is all too easy for me to give up yet again...but I want to say that Kashley, your response was just brilliant, and you get right to the core of the matter and are so clear and succinct and abelt o understand that it's clear you understand...and I am really sorry that is the case...in time I know all this therapy and self-reflection and pain will be well worth it. Right now I need a few days off from my pain before it inevitable returns. LL, your reply is greatly appreciated...I had so much I wanted to say, but I just can't right now. I'm sure that I will be back to this thread. MAc, sweetie, thanks for taking the time to reply to me...take care of your new little pet, and enjoy! Cool name, btw. Go just carefully, gently, just now. Morgs, thanks for stopping by...our fairy godmother! Love ya, Morgs.
PG, thank you for your reply, too...I imagine you are a wonderful and caring counselor...thank you for sahring with me, something about your life, that means a lot to me. and Liese...you've been so supportive, I really thank you. Yes, you "hit a nerve" but in the best way...it is very good to explore and share, all my feelings around my online counselor, and have someone out there who cares, you know? So, don't apologize...please! In fact, I want to thank you. I will be back, I'm certain- but for now, I just need to stay where I am in this new strange place of feeling "ok." I hope that is ok?

Much love, all of you, BB

BTW, wish me luck, I have a session tomorrow, as well. Sometimes it sucks when I "feel better" before a session, because T seems to think I'm all ok and don't need him. So keep me in your thoughts, as this "feeling ok" before a session is actually making me a bit anxious!

BB

beebs, i wish you good luck with your session tomorrow! Let your T know how things have been for you the last week...or weeks. I hope things will continue going the better way for you, also after tomorrows session, let us know how things goes...?

BB,

I hope your session goes well! Please keep us updated as you are able.

Hi BB,

I will be thinking of you. I completely understand how feeling 'ok' before a session can make you feel anxious, but share that with your T. Did this come on suddenly? Maybe you were so down that it was just too much to take so you snapped out of it. That's how I typically operate. But if I share this with my T - that I had a hard time and then I was able to function perfectly - she will understand that my state of 'ok' is just covering up the pain underneath. With all you've been through with your T, I think he will see this, too. However, I also understand why it may seem that your T might think you're fine, because my T rolls with the 'ok-ness' until I hit a place of feeling.

Big hugs, Beebs. Good luck.

Sorry BB ... feel better!

bb, thinking of you today. hope it is a good session. i, too, hate when i am blindsided by a session. i was last week, but now, i can stack up the triggers. for me, not feeling worthy of being in therapy, feeling silly, petty, and laughed at.

so, even through the rain, there is something to harvest in a bad session. i hate rain, too. particularly storms!

wishing you blue skies!! jill

Hi Beebs
Thinking of you and looking forward to hearing how the session went and how you are doing
Love
Morgs