Hiya, IHTS...it is good to see you, although I am sorry about the struggles you are having. I have no history of SA, in the sense that I never cut, so all I can offer is my own experience and what I have thought about it...take or leave... I too have had intense urges, not to cut, but weirdly, to bang my head, and I mean *really* hard on something. How good that would feel at times. To hurt myself, and after "saying something stupid." I have a similar setup to you growing up. A lot of bullying when I was young kid, than also as an older kid...still in school, really mean or really excluding because there is something "wrong" with you, abusive situation in school with adults, older siblings often very hateful(not that there was NO love, but it was hard to find at times)and parents who couldn't be pleased mcuh, although they also didn't really care so much to notice us. Some rather slight, (acccording to my memory) SA. Among other things. I notice that when I got this urge to hurt myself in some way, it is because I did not have the sense of approval and acceptance from some "group." I always wanted to an extreme amount, to be accepted and even hailed by some group. To the point I would have done anything to get it. Or from an older man who seems somehow either powerful, or kind. Preferable both. Also, the STRONG perfectionistic tendencies, though, I am not as able to follow through on those tendencies, and want to beat myself for that, too. I think, IHTS, that it must originate with, wanting the love and acceptance for who we are, as we are. And feeling that, since we cannot get it except by being "perfect" and even then, maybe not- well, than we must punish ourself, somehow, for not being what we were taught, we "should" be in order to be lovable by the group. So we do not embarrass anyone ( or ourselves, now that we are an adult) with our silliness or weakness, maybe. Yet, even if what you said was really silly, and I doubt that very much...you do not deserve to die for that or be hurt for it...as you surely know intellectually. The trick must be, to somehow learn emotionally that it is ok to be silly, stupid, or weak at times, or perhaps, all of the time even- and know that it does not make one worthless? And what makes us not worthless, it is our humanity.

Yet, how to reach this point? I don't know really- it's hard to say. I believe it must originate in the total acceptance of another, as only is attainable through therapy with someone who does not bring their own need into the room, but which also leaves us somewhat frustrated. Who can give us this love?

BB

Hi there IHTS,
I think you're asking a really good question. Some of what you wrote really struck a chord with me, especially about how something you said might have sounded really stupid. I remember being in high school, lying awake at night and obsessing about all the ways someone may have interpreted what I had said to them. It was an awful feeling... for me it was about being hyper vigilant, not wanting to rock the boat or upset anyone, and making sure I never did/said anything unfavorable to anyone.
Anyway, I, too, struggle with self harm, and have since I was a teenager. For me, the link between the event (i.e. saying something that you wish you hadn't said) and the self harm, is shame. Huge, overwhelming, awful shame. Here's a recent example from my life:
I'm really behind and overwhelmed at work. I try to complete the most pertinent tasks so that no one KNOWS I'm really behind and overwhelmed (I've got that inner critic/perfectionist thing going too). But things slip by and I mess up... the other day I forgot to email a client. She called to say she never got an email (she wasn't mad or upset at all!) and my heart absolutely sank when I heard her message. Literally, my first thought was "I need to cut." The feeling that led to that thought, though, was shame... i was ashamed that I didn't take care of this client, that I failed at my job, that I suck at what I do, that I couldn't complete a simple task... ashamed, not only because I made a mistake, but because someone else saw that mistake. I felt caught, rebuked... just so very ashamed. So for me, the cutting is not only calming and soothing, it's, like BB said, punishment for screwing up. It's what the shame tells me I deserve, even for the most minor transgressions.
I hope this makes sense. Idk if it answers your question or even if it applies to you. But I will say that most days (for this season of life at least) I can get through that shame without cutting. Sometimes I just have to distract myself and not think about it. But being able to identify the shame really helps. Sometimes I'll even narrate the situation to myself... i.e. "so, you forgot to email someone, and now you feel ashamed and stupid, and that makes you feel like you need to cut. But won't you be ashamed after you cut, too?"
Obviously that doesn't always stop me, but it helps a lot. And I don't recommend distraction to the point of avoidance by the way.... I always have to come back to the feeling later, just when I'm in a better state of mind.
Anyway, I hope that at least sheds some light on my thought process. Let me know what you think.

-CT

BB

quote:

The trick must be, to somehow learn emotionally that it is ok to be silly, stupid, or weak at times, or perhaps, all of the time even- and know that it does not make one worthless? And what makes us not worthless, it is our humanity

Beautifully put BB...I really struggle with feeling silly, that child bit in me takes over completely and it's a dreadful feeling of total stupidity. I too am a perfectionist, which only seems to rub salt in the wound.

starfish

Hi BB, CT and Starfish……good to talk to you guys!

I am doing ok these days, just thinking a lot about the process of this self abuse stuff .

BB, sorry to hear you struggle with this self judgment…..it sounds to me like this is it in a nutshell…

“I think, IHTS, that it must originate with, wanting the love and acceptance for who we are, as we are. And feeling that, since we cannot get it except by being "perfect" and even then, maybe not - well, than we must punish ourself, somehow…”

Somehow I believe its part of not having good enough early attachment, like that awful abandonment thing….feels so bad that we must be wrong and need to be punished for it. I agree with most of the rest of society that hurting my own body does seem pretty bizarre …..but it makes great sense when the pain is that bad. I just thought there had to be some cog loose in my head to take me from abandonment pain to cutting myself. I guess it could just be “I need to punish myself” thinking.

CT, Hi!......I’m sorry this stuff is such a fresh struggle for you too. I totally hear you in your description of the work email ….whew. The feeling does not go away either, just cause we push it down for a while. I read an article I found on the web by Pete Walker that made sense to me the other day. It describes the inner critic and that was the first time I was able to make any sense out of how (awful) I am to myself about human mistakes that really are totally explainable, normal and forgivable. I do think I have set myself up to somehow have to be powerful enough to do what is not really humanly possible or attainable in life. AND this is really hard on me…self abusive I guess. If I fail, then wham! I get it. I am a hard task masker.

So self compassion is hard to do. But I think compassion and giving myself a break really helps me and gets me back to that middle place of just being ok.


Starfish, mistakes do feel like salt in an open wound. When I sent in my first online post in my degree program in 2005 I almost had a stroke. I immediately went into freak out thinking they would all somehow know how stupid I was ….just by my choice of words typed on that page. I ended up with 97% in that class because I worked like a maniac on the material for months…..all to achieve and prove I had value. I am really trying to work on this to find more balance and get grip on compassion and self abuse before I have lived 90+ years! These days I am coping with some rejection after submitting a proposal for a conference and having it not be accepted. I realize, I guess, that sometimes I am not perfect and this imperfection does not have to mean I have no value on earth, no right to breathe, take up space etc. I guess I can learn not to need pats on the back to soothe my worry that I don’t measure up. Sorry about all this jabber….thanks for your replies.

IHTS.

I'm also thinking that if I did accept how badly I was abandoned and how terrifying it was to be so wrong and unacceptable......I would lose my mind. Its better to just cut myself and shut down that pain and terror. Maybe that is that quantum leap I make after realizing I screwed up again....I'm jumping over the losing my mind gap by doing something about it!

does that make any sense?

Hi, IHTS...What you said about it coming from someplace deep in the past when very small, makes sense to me, too...when I think about it, there are a significant number of kids who, when very small, will hurt themselves almost auromatically when they are angry and feeling rejected. (Think, two-year old temper-tantrum-what do they do? Bang and bang their heads) I used to work in a daycare enter. So it makes sense to me that some of this could be coming from a very early place of abandonment, and that the reaction we have is the same as a small child would have. Fortunately a two-year old doesn't have access to sharp stuff, hopefully...yeah, who would give a baby in a rage over needs not being met, a razor to play with at that moment? Nobody in their right mind! And I believe a little child is doing just that....something to distract from the reality of not having their needs met. When my little boy throws a tantrum, I do try to be present, hold him if he will let me, or just speak soothing words that say it is ok for him to be angry about whatever it is...and I think it is up to a therapist to do this kind of thing for us as adults, maybe to fill the gap. Unfortunately, we do not learn as quickly as adults, and there is so much harm to undo first before those kind of words can sink in, right? I think maybe, you need to hear from a caring and present other person, that your rage is understandable and acceptable...so that you can "calm down" so to speak. But I am no T- so I am just thinking out loud. Hope it helps a bit.

xx-

BB

quote:

Originally posted by Itshardtosay:
I'm also thinking that if I did accept how badly I was abandoned and how terrifying it was to be so wrong and unacceptable......I would lose my mind. Its better to just cut myself and shut down that pain and terror. Maybe that is that quantum leap I make after realizing I screwed up again....I'm jumping over the losing my mind gap by doing something about it!

does that make any sense?

Hi IHTS,

Yes it does make sense !!

You can't just sit down and 'accept' what happened to you. I wish this was that simple, for all of us... It isn't so much 'accepting' that solves the issue but understanding how what affected you manifested itself in depression and self abuse and why you reacted to it. This is an analytical process.

The "thinking" process that leads to self abuse is usually an unconscious one and it can have it's roots in several type of disroders or traumas... There is no simple answer. However, self abuse can be linked or identified in most cases as a compulsive behavior that is in effect a way to cope with anxiety. Managing the symptoms (avoiding cutting by developping a proper reaction to the urge) is one thing but I feel 'treating' the underlying cause is in the long term much more effective. But unfortunately, it isn't easy and it can take some time.

Hi BB, nice to have you back !

Hi to you too, MHP...nice to see you around, too!
Erm, just in case, I wanted to clarify I in no way meant that I thought you should accept what happened to you, IHTS- I was talking more about self-acceptance kwim? How are you doing today?

BB

Hey BB, you sound like just the kind of parent every kid wants. Thanks for posting your thoughts...this is hard stuff, eh? I'm doing ok enough, still dealing with the issues that seem to be hiding from my conscious mind...it is maddening that I can't remember everything or figure out what the hell is going on that's causing these symptoms.... How are you?

MHT, thanks for your thoughts too. Yes, my si is compulsive, I see that it is very much so. I hadn't thought of cutting as a way to manage anxiety, but it obviously is just that. I remember first self abusing at age 9 (kind of shocking now that I think of it) but then I didn't do any more of that til age 22 when it really started to be out of control.

Treating the anxiety is a very slow process...no joke there at all. My shrink is an analyst and we are doing good work these days...when my defenses are able to allow it. Things seem to be moving along, but, slowly....and that doesn't make me real thrilled because I rather impatient with a lot of drive. Drive, energy or whatever, it is still taking me a long time to figure out whatever it is I'm supposed to be figuring out....and my shrink seems to be willing to wait for that to happen. I guess this "processing" is magic... no one can really explain it, so I'm praying for the magic or miracle process to do its thing!

thanks for your posts.

IHTS

Oh, thanks for the kind words, IHTS, but I didn't used to be like that util I had my T, who taught me it.... I understood it from him, first. thanks good ness for that. I still screw up lots.
gosh, I can't understand how to cope with anxiety, IHTS...that is a really tough one. Mione got bad and after awhile I wnet into depression...now I can't feel much, but I'm not sure which is worse?
Sounds like you have a pretty good T there...keep us posted as the miracle unfolds... I think what you have survived and still are giving back, shows that YOU are a miracle!

BB

Thanks BB.

I don't feel like much of a miracle today. I seem to always be going out on a limb at school, at work, wherever. I am afraid of being "stupid"....whatever that is. I sent my new boss who has a big position at my university a paper I wrote linking childhood attachment injury to adult suicide. It is written using Dr Allan Schore's 2008 Regulation Theory paper. Sometimes I wonder why I do these things that can leave me judged so easily? I don't need to offend her or have her think I see her as not knowing...guess i just don't need to show my ignorance but i can't seem to help it! She has not replied yet. It was a good paper and this right brain stuff gets me all pumped because its explaining so much of what we didn't realize before. After talking to her this morning I don't think she has ever read his work. Oh well, we'll see.

I talked to her about doing a graduate program somewhere, maybe at this school. gee, it is nerve wracking this adult world stuff.

I'm not sure either, which is worse, depression or anxiety.....they're both pretty big on the emotional Richter Scale. You take good care.

IHTS

You take care too, IHTS...I think it is awesome that you wrote and gave your boss the paper...and we must remember, anyone worth their salt will take what we have and appreciate it, and if they are unable to do so, it is their own deficit that needs to be worked on by them, good on you for sharing it. I hope you get the validation, but I also am glad that you can see it was a good paper! Oh, I am just so proud of you!

Love,

BB