Skip to main content

The PsychCafe
Share, connect, and learn.
Hi AG & HB

As you both seem to have a wonderful way of describing & sharing your insights & experiences on this website, I was wondering if you would mind writing down the top 10 things you have learned from therapy(or more if you can be bothered!)? I guess I am after a one-stop shop for the advice that has really changed you. If this request is too hard or too personal or too time consuming, please feel free to ignore. Smiler

I thought about PM you both but then I thought your answers might be of great benefit to other people on this site. Smiler

Thanking you both so much in advance if you can do this.

I'm OK
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Hi Im OK,
Great question and thank you for asking! Sorry I haven't responded earlier; I'm on vacation and mainly surfing on my IPOD and I missed seeing the topic. Which is really painful since I'm going to have to follow HB's eloquence! I'm going to take a cue from her also which is I what to think about this and then I'll post my list.

I must say that I agree with so much of what HB said especially about fear (ok she's OBVIOUSLY wrong about having the best T in the world which is impossible unless my T is commuting from NY to South Africa! But HB as tempting as it is to get out the HTML slapper, I think we should just agree to disagree. Big Grin

I'll post more in a few days as we're about to change locations and things will be a bit hurley burley for a few days.

AG
quote:
I was so frightened of him and he never judged me for it nor took it personally and his patience is legendary, no matter what I asked, he answered honestly. He said the same thing over and over and never got irritated that it took me so long to grasp what was obviously so simple for him.

If I had to sum up my therapy experience, I would say that the greatest thing I learnt in therapy was how to love unconditionally. How to love someone without having to hold on to them, to care without needing to know details about them or their life, but simply to enjoy the precious moment of connecting and being present with another person.


LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT!

HB, man that is so insightful. Your whole post was actually, but this is my favourite bit. (Don't worry AG, I'm also hanging out to read yours too! Big Grin)

I don't think i'm ready to make my list, I don't think I'm quite in the right place yet, but I can sense I might be heading in the right direction at least so thanks for sharing. And thanks I'm OK for the great topic.

LTF
quote:
HB: 7.A very precious thing I learnt through therapy was the joy of being vulnerable. I have spent my entire adult life being as untouchable and invulnerable as I possibly could, avoiding life instead of engaging with it. After knowing this wonderful man, my fear of being hurt is transforming into the joy of living, I am willing to risk it. I discovered that hurt feelings will not kill me, that making a mistake or not knowing is not the end of the world and that I can survive even if I make someone I love cross. It has freed me up inside to be more authentic and express love instead of fear.


Hi Hummingbird. It was wonderful to read your post. I am so happy for you that you are blessed with this phenomenal sounding therapist!

I really liked your number 7, and really connected to what you said.. it sounds just like me. I have spent or wasted all of my young life being untouchable, rigid and invulnerable. I also avoided life instead of engaging in it... Reason being, is my childhood was one where I was not allowed to express any kind of negative emotion or weakness and I was punished for it - mostly by rejection, criticism & sarcasm. As I grew up into an adult I then continued to punish myself for being 'bad'.

I am learning in therapy that one of our deepest needs is to be known from the depths of our being.. If we can be parented and learn to be our authentic selfs without judgement, shame or embarrassment we will find our way to deep connection with other people (especially those we are close to and care about). I think that is what we are all really longing for.. I think that people who are comfortable be their authentic selfs are not lonely people and they don't have the type of disorders that come from a lack of intimacy in their lives... 'Who would have ever known?', I think to myself - I have been running away from it my entire life ! It really has been so absolutely contrary to what I ever believed! This has probably been the most satisfying & rewarding thing I have learned in therapy..


Take care, Flicka Smiler
Hi Hummingbird,

Thank you for your answer. It sounds like you've done a lot of work in the past year and have come a long way. That's amazing to me as I've been in thearpy for 6 months and haven't done half the work you've done. I think I've been fighting thearpy all this time instead of opening up to it. I've been so busy trying to fight attachment issues and stop them from happening (I've come to realize I've lost that battle Roll Eyes) that I can't work on anything else. That's why when someone has come as far as you have I like to know how long it took you to get there. Good for you!
Frustrated
Hi Frustrated. Yes,I agree, you probably haven't been in therapy long enough, and then everyone is probably so different, depending on what their life experiences have been like..
We all grow at different times and speeds. And it does takes time.. I believe that trusting your P/T is a very key factor to stop fighting and begin surrender.. Hopefully,your P/T has good boundaries, too..
...............................................................................................
How can I learn to give up control in my various relationships (home, work, friends)? I'm not a control-freak but I don't feel like people can be trusted with things I know are important. (3:58)
http://www.cloudtownsend.com/v....php?clip=cloudA1389
...............................................................................................

For me, every session that I opened up and was welcomed (instead of shot down) by my P, I learned to trust him more and I learned to value & accept myself more...pretty neat.
Each opportunity was like a stepping stone that led to feeling greater freedom (less fear), wholeness and aliveness... I think that once I started to see and feel how rewarding attaching/connecting was, I began to actually want more! Sounds like Hummingbird came about it the same way..correct me if I'm wrong.. Smiler(n.b. Also, may I just mention that I did emdr therapy along with cbt to process/heal all my junk!)

Hugs, Flicka Smiler
Hi HB, AG, LTF, Tacy, Frustrated & Flicka

HB & AG- How can you two argue about having the best T, when there is no doubt at all that the best T lives down under in Australia??!! Big Grin

Seriously, thank you so much HB for your reply! I realise that you obviously put a great deal of time and thought into your response (as always) and for this I am extremely appreciative. And I am sorry that it has taken me so long to acknowledge your response [but as I hope you can understand it’s not personal – it just that my life is beyond hectic at the moment with our house renovation (& the builders recent stuff up which they thankfully said they will rectify), my husband, 3 year old, 7 month old and our beautiful Golden Retriever!].

Like LTF, I wanted to have a “favourite bit” too! But as I tried to select one “bit”, I couldn’t. It was all so beautifully written and summed up my T / therapy journey and was exactly what I was after, which was a “one-stop shop” for me to refer to now and in the future. I love the fact that you (and AG) have a way of writing where I can read and say “yes, that’s it, that’s what I have been struggling with, that’s exactly what I am learning / working on in my therapy journey and how great (yet sad at the same time Frowner) that there are people out there who can truly relate to where my mind is, what it thinks, and where it wants to be! That I’m not alone and that the two of you are finding that there is freedom for the mind/soul when you work through all this very hard stuff”. This list is a gift to me.

To sum up my favourite bits, I am going to cut & paste the sentences that relate to me, and perhaps reword where appropriate so it makes sense to read:

quote:
Most of what I learnt my T taught me through the example he set just by being himself. I watched him keep his internal balance while I stumbled around and learnt from seeing him do it. He demonstrated steadiness and how to know yourself by knowing himself. He let me practice being me on him and taught me how to reality check. While I was ricocheting around the room like an out of control ping pong ball, emotions soaring and swooping, whenever I passed by, there he was steady and calm, always the same. Every session I would swear to myself I was never going back, and then I would crawl back next time wanting some of the calmness and consistency that he had. He said the same thing over and over and never got irritated that it took me so long to grasp what was obviously so simple for him.

My black and white thinking was so extreme. I minimized anxiety by perfectionism, control and certainty but what I’ve learnt was that I could actually survive the discomfort of uncertainty. It took some time for me to realise that a pounding heart was simply an indication that I was scared but not a reality that I was in danger.

He believed in me and my capacity to cope long before I did and kept guiding me in the direction of trusting myself. When I told him I was starting to trust him, he said, well I suppose it is okay for a while but it is yourself you need to trust, not me.

I had this habit of obsessive thinking that I couldn't stop. So instead of saying, I can't cope, I can ask, well how can or could I cope? But then I must come up with answers and not just circle endlessly around the questions. A lot of my anxiety is anticipatory, what if such and such happens, so learning this has been hugely freeing for me.

I am still working on the idea that having value has more to do with being than doing.

I have spent my entire adult life avoiding life instead of engaging with it. I discovered that hurt feelings will not kill me, that making a mistake or not knowing is not the end of the world and that I can survive even if I make someone I love cross. It has freed me up inside to be more authentic and express love instead of fear.”


One last comment, HB, I loved what you wrote at the end

quote:
I learnt in therapy how to love unconditionally. How to love someone without having to hold on to them, to care without needing to know details about them or their life, but simply to enjoy the precious moment of connecting and being present with another person. What I discovered is that it is the trying to hold on that hurts, but love and loving someone with an open hand is such a joy.


This is a completely new concept for me. A completely new way of thinking for me. It is something I will be pondering in the weeks to come. Roll Eyes

AG - I am looking forward with great anticipation to your reply. Take your time and enjoy your vacation. Smiler

Cheers!
I’m OK
quote:
HB: How to love someone without having to hold on to them, to care without needing to know details about them or their life, but simply to enjoy the precious moment of connecting and being present with another person. What I discovered is that it is the trying to hold on that hurts, but love and loving someone with an open hand is such a joy.


This is a new concept for me too.. Obviously I've never had this problem before, but now that I am attaching (most especially in relation to my P) it's like I'm now presented with a new problem. A problem I've never dealt with before. The problem of unattaching!? Frowner

It is true that trying to hold onto love hurts like !#$&%, but how do you just let it be? I know that as time passes it will all disappear.. I do know this one thing from experience about different things.. But, if you can provide more details into your enlightenment it might make my process so much easier Smiler ... plse & Thanks HB..

Hugs, Flicka Smiler
Hi HB.

I can only imagine what a profound life experience it was, working with people who were dying. Surely, this is not something everyone is gifted for.. no doubt you are a a very caring and sensitive person..

You are right..my instinct says it wants to hold on to my P, but my sense of right and wrong (which will avail!) is causing an internal conflict by saying, 'no, it is not meant to be!' (well, more importantly, it would be a disaster!)

I guess because my P has such apparent feelings for me also, it makes the pain/loss around leaving, that much harder. Sometimes I feel like I am the one, who is having to be in control and set boundaries - it's been a most difficult struggle.. I may be rambling about the same stuff here, but I need to get it out somewhere.. No one understands me, no one can relate to me in my 'real' world.. Now that I understand, and know the importance of talking about something that is bothering me, I don't want to be like I used to be, and just repress & pretend everything is ok, you know? I have regret.. I know that the answer to my problem was to get out. I take responsibility for making a poor decision. Maybe if I just did it, it wouldn't have been as hard, or so bad, as I envisioned it would be. God's answer to problems like mine, is to run - just run. God didn't abandon me, though, even in my bad decision. He showed me His mercy. My P really started sincerely trying, and it seems like feelings have only escalated near the dawn of my recovery.. Time for me to go, to run. I think it's going to be alright.

Yesterday, I spent a beautiful day in the biggest meadow under a big old shady tree.. I started reading this new book called "God will make a way - What to do when you don't know what to do". I read several chapters, most of them under 10 pages. The central theme in most of the chapters (and they were all about completely different things & problems in life) was that the way we get through difficulties is through love and support/attachments. Through the hours spent reading the book I think I saw the lightbulb.. One chapter called 'Fear and Anxiety' was talking about how when we don't have any internalized love (from others/God) inside of us, that life is scary. That is why God has given us people, who He works through, to provide us with security, love and support. When we get through life together, it makes it all so much easier! I never wanted to believe this before therapy because of my abuse, but I have now surrendered. The saying about 'No man is an island' is true. I cannot deny it any longer. In summary, I am convinced that what I need to do, is to form OTHER attachments to get OVER my heartbreak & attachment over my P. I'm sure it wouldn't be shock to reveal that I barely have deep supportive attachments..(that's why I was in therapy to understand why) except for 1 or so.. No wonder it is hard to let go of my P...

My job now, is to go out and DO what I've learned - to go out and find safe (very important) supportive people who I can open up to,be vulnerable with and form satifying attachments . Heck, maybe that also includes joining a support group! I mean this is what I was going to do anyway, but I since reading the book I see that in the process this will be the way to heal from my P. When I am full of this internalized love and deep connections from others I will not be so needy, and I will be stronger to make the right choices.. Easier said, than done ? Probably, yes, but at least I see the path now.. That already has lifted the load. I guess this is my new journey. Big Grin

................................................
Develop Healthy Boundaries: Receive Help (4:21)
http://www.cloudtownsend.com/v...eo.php?clip=CCNT2106
.............................................


Excerpt from "God will make a way... .."

Sara had come to our group because she had found herself in a succession of unsatifying relationships. She wanted to learn how to pick better men. She knew that she had a tendency to be attracted to the wrong type. When she began talking about her dating, it was mostly about the choices that she was making in regard to all these 'bad' men she found herself getting involved with. Yet we all wanted to know something else. "Who do you turn to for help with your loneliness?" , We asked. "What loneliness?" she replied.
"The loneliness that you feel when you are not in a relationship," I said.
Sara went silent. It was a new thought for her. She did not see herself as empty or lonely, because she had never allowed herself to get close enough to how she felt 'without a man' to know who she was on her own. Her relationships with men who were incapable of connecting kept her from being aware of how disconnected and love-starved she really was. So we had her enter into a pact. She agreed to get to a place where her life was so full without a man that she was not distressed or lonely when she did not have one in her life. As she began to let other supportive people get close to her, know her heart, and touch her loneliness and some of her hurts, she became stronger. She also found herself dating out of a desire to find someone with whom to share her life as opposed to a desire to get a life. She could much more easily say 'no' to men who were not good for her or in whom she was really not interested. She could be more selective because she was not in a place of need. If you are already loved, you will not be clingy and needy. You will make better choices when it comes to dating.


Hugs, Flicka Smiler
Last edited by flicka
Hi All,
I've finally come up with my answer to I'm OK's question. Before I start I do want to say that so much of what HB said resonated with me and described my experience in therapy. The most difficult thing to explain about healing in therapy is that it isn't about "knowing" it's about experiencing being with another person. So much of what I talk about below totally gonzo confused me when I first learned it. I used to tell my T he was talking in Russian. But staying with my feelings and continuing to express them through the confusion is how I learned it. And I must give credit here to my T who is really an incredibly gifted, compassionate man doing exactly what he should be. So much of the wisdom you all credit me for is my ability to accurately quote him.

I, of course, came up with a lot more than 10 items. Big Grin If I explained each one in detail, this post would make my normal novel length posts look like Twitter quotes, so I'm just going to list them. If anyone wants me to expand on something (Brave soul!) or explain what I meant, please feel free to ask. So, for what its worth:

What I Have Learned in Therapy

Healing is possible.

Healing happens so slowly that it is only in looking back over long distances can we see how far we have come.

I don’t need to be scared of my feelings or overwhelmed by them. I learned this by watching my T not be overwhelmed by them.

My feelings aren’t always a good indicator of reality. I needed to learn to put some room between my feelings and myself so I could perceive what was really going on instead of what I believed was going on. My old template was pretty faulty. Reasonable when it was formed, but faulty in the long term.

Seek first to understand than to be understood.

It's ok for it to be about your needs.

It's ok to make it about someone else's needs as long as it's a choice not an imperative.

There is more than one interpretation for a set of facts. Sometimes you have to ask.

You have to stop protecting yourself to experience being protected.

It’s human to be vulnerable and to long for love, connection, protection and safety. Love, connection, protection and safety are our birthright which we deserve, but sadly, so often don’t get. But there’s nothing wrong, and so much right, with longing for them.

All of me is acceptable, some of its not so pretty, some of it I don’t like, but its all human.

I wasn’t responsible for the abuse and I didn't deserve any of it.

There was nothing inherently wrong with me, I just didn’t get what I needed and endured things I shouldn’t have had to.

Healing is not reaching a place of perfect peace and safety. It’s knowing that you can remain safe and be at peace no matter what you run into.

A surprisingly large part of dealing with the difficulties of life is knowing you can.

Reaching out to another person when you need help is a sign of strength not a weakness.

You need to feel safe enough to be scared.

It gets a LOT harder before it gets better.

Anger and violence are two different things.

Anger is just another emotion.

We can only know ourselves in relationship. If the relationship isn't a good one, we learn to believe lies about yourselves. If it's a good one, we can learn to love ourselves. My T is a good mirror.

The only way to heal some of the losses is to mourn them. I can endure the losses which can’t be corrected and I can get what I need to go on.

Expressing something you want that you can’t have and being understood, far from being futile, is incredibly healing.

There is nothing wrong with having needs.

Hearing a no doesn’t mean you did something wrong.

Other people’s boundaries are just that, theirs, and say more about them than they do about me.

I need to be as patient, accepting and gentle of my own shortcomings as of other peoples. I need to patient, accepting and gentle of other people’s shortcomings. Smiler

There is a far side to despair.

Grief is not endless, it just feels like it.

Grief is despair with hope. That's why it heals.

That being alone wasn’t the best I could do or hope for. I am capable of intimacy. Being known doesn't mean being left.

That mistakes are just that, mistakes, and can be learned from.

I don’t need to know what’s over the next hill before going over it. I can trust in my ability to handle whatever it is. That's actually part of the adventure.

Love isn’t part of pain, pain is a part of life and love is the answer to pain.

All human beings must be dependent on another human being to learn to be independent; you’re supposed to do it when you’re a kid but can do it as an adult.

Therapy is NOT for wusses; its messy, scary, chaotic, confusing, difficult and not for the faint of heart.

For reasons beyond my understanding, having someone witness your pain and stay with you through it is incredibly powerful and healing. Going through your own pain teaches you to stay with others through their pain. This makes it worth going through.

We never stop needing other people.

That we're not supposed to be worried about, or even aware of the bond. That it should be the background which allows us to do what we need to. The point isn't in saying goodbye, its in getting what we need to do what we need to do.

Loving someone shouldn’t be scary.

Connection doesn’t end because of separation.

That telling someone how you feel is not the same as telling them what you want them to do.

Feelings are, more often than not, irrational. Just because they don’t make sense, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be expressed.

Theraputic boundaries are the most frustrating, painful, and crazy making things; they are also utterly necessary to the work.

We are all capable of flight!

AG
HB,
Thank you although now I'm the one with tears in my eyes. I am also very grateful for knowing you. You are a shining beacon that throws light, warmth and hope around you. You have no idea how many times your encouragement and bright outlook have gotten me through my darker moments.

If my journey has been extraordinary it is because I have been accompanied by companions like you.

AG
Hi QC and welcome to the Boards. Therapy can be scary and confusing but also very rewarding and satisfying at times too.

I'm not as far as AG and HB but I wanted to add some comments about what I have learned so far in therapy. I have learned that I am safe with my T. That he won't hurt me and I can trust him. I admit that this trust is still new and fragile but I never thought I would even get this far.

I have learned when there is a disruption in our relationship that it does not mean it's the end of the relationship. It can be repaired and go on stronger than before. I learned that a relationship does not have to be perfect. That "I" don't have to be perfect to have a good relationship.

I have learned how important it is for me to keep a journal to remind me where I started and how far I have come, even though it seems that it has taken me 18 months to feel any movement at all. Yes, its very very slow but the changes are there.

I have learned that therapy is not linear... it goes around and up and down and sideways. Sometimes you feel it's going backwards too. It can be a messy, roller coaster but it's worth hanging on.

I have learned that my T does not judge me. He is totallly accepting of me and with all my flaws, deficiencies and phobias. It's okay to be the real me when I'm with him.

I learned that is really is okay to ask for what you need... whether it be reassurance, an extra session, a phone call. That I don't have to worry about the boundaries... my T has that part covered. If what I'm asking for is out of line he will discuss it with me in a gentle way.

It is possible to have a different relational experience than I had growing up and that from my relationship with my T I will learn how a good relationship works.

That... the relationship IS the therapy. And that it's the relationship that heals. The importance of attunement with your T. The right brain to right brain connection, the non-verbal communication... this is so important to healing... probably the most important.

That's about all that comes to mind now. I agree that this is a good, thought provoking thread.

True North (TN)
Helle...I interpret this to mean that we long for someone to know us... the real us and everything about us, even the parts that we fear or hate and to still accept us and even love us without condition. In order for this to happen you have to allow your T close enough to really see who you are. You have to make yourself vulnerable enough to allow this to happen and that takes a lot of courage and hard work in therapy to develop trust in your T. You have to feel safe enough with your T to risk them knowing you to the depths of your soul. It is only when someone knows us to this depth and accepts us for who we are that we can learn to accept ourselves.

I'm just starting to feel safe enough with my T to allow him to glimpse the real me, flaws and defects and all.

TN
Thanks TN, I want that from someone, and perhaps my T is the best place to start, but right now I am running away from him. The diference now is that I know I am doing it. Before when i fired him (2x) I did not know- not aware. Right now- deep down I am not believing my T is up to the challenge. He is great attuned and all, but I am confused and my relationship with him is part of the confusion. We have different spiritual backgrounds and now for me (and I think- for him) it is affecting the relationship- don't know what to do. I am terribly afraid he is rejecting me as I push him away. Maybe I will post this as a topic.
Thanks for your insights TN
i just had to re-up this beautiful thread. very inspirational stuff. hope this is ok.

""" What I discovered is that it is the trying to hold on that hurts, but love and loving someone with an open hand is such a joy."""

many others, just about the safety of being with a reliable, consistant, accepting, calm force in therapy. makes me relate this SO much to being a parent, what TO DO, as i have such crappy role models. additionally, just letting us pour out whatever it is and be accepted, and for me, most of all, HEARD!! being KNOWN!! something i never had, as i am sure many of us didn't, i think this is one of my MAIN 'main' things. and i know how MAD i would get when T1 didn't GET something i had said for so long.

I'd like to flag this thread and read it daily/weekly, as i think i am learning so much from therapy, and sometimes i don't see how far i have come, only how far is still ahead...y'no, the mirage of an end...i turn one corner thinking i am near the end, then i see a 'new problem' i had repressed for so long and the end just gets farther away. but, really refreshing to see some of these ideas HAVE become incorporated into this new ME.
When I first started ttherapy in Nov 08, I was giving myself 3 months to "be fixed", my wise T (after much prodding and pinning him down to a time frame) said in his opinion I would be more like 6 months. Well, It isJune now- so it has been 1 year 7 months, and I don't count any longer. As long as I am growing (and have the money) I will go as long as I need too. - so many blessings, so many rewards, but it is WORK. I have made the committment to growing.
quote:
many others, just about the safety of being with a reliable, consistant, accepting, calm force in therapy. makes me relate this SO much to being a parent, what TO DO, as i have such crappy role models. additionally, just letting us pour out whatever it is and be accepted, and for me, most of all, HEARD!! being KNOWN!!


As far as being a parent, the insight I've gotten is this: You try be to your kids everything that you wish your therapist could be for you. You will fail. But keep trying. : Smiler It will eventually pay off...I hope.

Jill, I get what you mean about wanting to be seen heard, known. I is hard for me to separate this desire from the desire to "be sombody special." Sometimes I wonder if therapy is supposed to get us to the point where we can accept ourselves for who we are, even if it isn't something "special" in the eyes of the rest of the world. That it is ok to just be special to ourselves. I find this very lonely and hard to accept. I havn't even really covered this area in T. I want my T to be all things to me, and it makes me so sorrowful, so lonely that he cannot. But there is some lesson to be learned in this. And I am learning very gradually to accept and deal with what he is able to give me. It's not "enough." It really isn't, and it really is painful to have to deal with that grief. You will get there. therapy will bring you there whether you want it to or not. You may be kicking and screaming all the way, but eventually, we come to a place of deeper and deeper acceptance of the reality of what our pain is. (When I get there, I'll let you know Roll Eyes )

Thanks for bringing this thread back...it is awesome.

Mayo, I thought it would take me probably 6 months to a year. It looks like it's going to be a lot longer than that. I am still dealing with the good and bad feelings this gives me. So it's good to hear, you see it as a blessing...I try to get there, too. I think my T is a blessing, but I don't like feeling so dependent on him when I am not a part of his heart. Just the way it has to be I guess.

BB
quote:
Helle...I interpret this to mean that we long for someone to know us... the real us and everything about us, even the parts that we fear or hate and to still accept us and even love us without condition. In order for this to happen you have to allow your T close enough to really see who you are. You have to make yourself vulnerable enough to allow this to happen and that takes a lot of courage and hard work in therapy to develop trust in your T. You have to feel safe enough with your T to risk them knowing you to the depths of your soul. It is only when someone knows us to this depth and accepts us for who we are that we can learn to accept ourselves.


Hi BB,

I see you are here too. thank you for this thread.

the above are so very wise words from TN to meeeeee!

Thank you TN- looking at this helps me to see how far I have grown. these words, TN are so powerful to me. I do, now understand your words- deeply, and I can feel all of it. My T is right for me, and he will go to any (well????) almost any depth with me.

I am still scared of the spiritual stuff though, but eventually little by little- that hurdle will be over come.

"...wanting to be seen heard, known. I is hard for me to separate this desire from the desire to "be sombody special."

Yea- I get this too.

thanks for this.

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×