LL,
So glad to see you around again. I have found things online that says there is more than one (subcategory) of borderline because I've always wondered about my abandonment/rejection issues but I don't have other stuff that seems to go along with the borderline. I am thought to be a very calm person outwardly. My issues seem to fit a lot in the dysthymia (which has subcategories) also and I feel I fit the atypical...but of course I can't diagnose myself. I want to ask my T about this but I can't get to it because I probably would misinterpret her look so I just leave it alone and stuff has calmed for me or I may just be going inward now. If you're curious like me you might find more online. If I find it again I will share on your thread but getting ready for company so no time to look right now.

Take care,
Hopeful

((LL))

I was dx'd with BPD, but after reading about Complex-PTSD I am identifying myself there a little bit more. My T believes that I have BPD traits, but am not fully dx'd as BPD. It's something I have a hard time accepting because T1 thought it was and now T2 is saying that it isn't. I am caught somewhere in the middle.. There are 9 criteria(I think it's 9) so there are some VERY different variations for how this can manifest. BPD'ers can be so very different because I think you only have to meet 4 criteria to be dx'd. (If you can't tell, I haven't been doing too much research on it recently as my T tells me to stay away from the dx so I don't become it.)

My initial reaction to a diagnoses was relief. I will be honest. I thought that something was so wrong for such a long time and I just wanted to know what it was? When I got diagnosed I was relieved because I could understand myself a bit more.

I understand you say that the out of control emotional stuff is not you. I think controlling emotions or regulating them is just one component of BPD. BUT, also there is also the factor of how emotions are handled. I personally don't lash out at people when my emotions are high. I tend to bury and self destruct. I handle my emotions in that way...which is a regulation problem in itself. I don't know how to effectively handle strong emotion..

When you say that you shut down...I am thinking that might be another something going on. I disassociate pretty badly...and it's a coping mechanism. My T said because I had to learn to manage those strong emotions and didn't have an outlet when I was a child, I learned to put them off/remove myself or disassociate them. So, I get fuzzy headed. BAD. I did this yesterday and completely got lost in the place I've lived in for YEARS. I just disassociated myself right out of my own brain and when I realized I had no idea where I was, I knew I was in trouble.

Do I fit the dx? Pretty much most of the time. T believes that I hit on some traits some of the time, but not all of the traits most of the time which leads her to believe that I have traits.

What sort of therapy/self help works? Well, I know that some people respond very well to DBT. I had a pretty crummy experience and I wouldn't necessarily NOT try it again..maybe in the future. My T seems to think that psychodynamic long term/depth oriented work will help. SO, that's what I am doing. If you read my post on the sensitive issues forum, you'll see how I haven't been coping well, though... so who knows what will work for me???

I try not to get caught up in the diagnosis, though. It seems really negative and some of what you find is harsh. I believe that BPD can be managed and I strongly believe that you can recover.

Have you read the book "Get Me Out of Here?" It's by Rachel Reiland. I highly recommend it.

I hope if I botched some BPD facts that others will step in an clarify.

LL. Hope that helps a little. HUGS to you...

Hi Lamps

Just a thought because I think I am similar in terms of over control of emotions. It could be an avoidance technique. Whenever I get angry, I probably withdraw from the situation. I do think that anger has interfered with me getting close to people for that reason. I am usually not only angry but think really really vicious things that I am ashamed to admit. The great news is that through my relationship with my T, the anger has gotten much less intense so that I am not avoiding it as much and there is where I am learning to regulate my emotions. Don't know if that relates.

Hopeful and Brokes, thanks so much for your replies and for welcoming me back . Edited to add, and thanks Liese for your reply too.

Hopeful, you sound like I feel about the issue right now. I can see some aspects of the borderline dx in my issues, but it just doesn’t seem to really fit. In fact the clinical psychologist (CP? Or should I just call her P?) did explain to me the reasons she was thinking borderline and it sort of made sense at the time, but I seem to have completely forgotten them. Usually I write out after session notes but didn’t this time and blow me down but I’ve forgotten most of what was said . If you do come across the stuff you found online again, yes please, do post a link, I would be interested to read more specific stuff about this.

Brokes, thanks for sharing about yourself. I’m sorry you are having a really crap time with your T at the moment, fingers crossed that it’s all a big misunderstanding and nothing more sinister.

Interesting that you found DBT to be not too helpful. When I asked this P what she’d suggest she mentioned schema therapy and DBT (neither of which are very common in UK so I think she must have just been thinking aloud.) From what I gather, long term in depth work IS what BPDers need, the relationship mattering very much – but then, the relationship matters very much per se in therapy, doesn’t it?

quote:

My initial reaction to a diagnoses was relief. I will be honest. I thought that something was so wrong for such a long time and I just wanted to know what it was? When I got diagnosed I was relieved because I could understand myself a bit more.

This I relate to very closely. I’ve spent so many years going round in ever diminishing circles trying to work out for myself what the hell is wrong with me and why it all seems so different from everyone else, that I really would like to have a proper diagnosis for the same reasons you give above – relief, not feeling so alone and alien anymore, having a whole load of new info to refer to that will help me not only understand what’s going on in me but maybe even points the way to healing and change.

Thanks for the suggestion of the book, in fact I have already read it, ages ago (because it was one of the few autobiographies around that described being in therapy.) I can’t say I related at all to Reiland’s descriptions of losing the plot in terms of anger, but I suspect that if I weren’t so controlled and terrified all the time, I’d have the same propensity to fly into a rage as she described, so maybe I’m not so far off having borderline traits after all. Something I have to sit with I think and not rush to be defensively rejecting on the one hand nor totally accepting on the other.

Do either of you have issues with anger, feeling it, expressing it, feeling controlled by it?

Lol I just went to post this and saw your reply Liese, funnily enough all about anger, which is what I associate with the idea of borderline out of control emotional dysregulation. But maybe the angry thoughts, even if unexpressed, do constitute some form of being emotionally out of control? Maybe you don’t need to act on the feelings to still have out of control feelings. I would certainly love to get rid of a lot of the anger that boils away inside me. As you say, having an accepting and supportive relationship, as you have with your T, where angry stuff can be expressed safely, would definitely help a lot.

Thanks guys again.

LL

Hi ((Lamplighter)), glad to see you back around!

I have tons of trouble regulating my emotions and I get super self-destructive... it contributes to my eating disorder a lot. My Ts haven't suggested I have BPD - I've asked though - but I know I have some of the symptoms internally (? if that makes any sense). When I first started therapy I was worried I had almost everything so getting a diagnosis of some kind, like Brokes said really was a relief.

I found DBT so helpful for regulating my emotions though - internally like you're saying with the anger. For example, if I woke up even 30 minutes late on the weekend it was like the whole day was ruined. I'd be grumpy, unhappy, disappointed in myself, and just so angry. I don't do that at all anymore (I'm not sure why I had that problem). I used a lot of DBT "skills" and now they are sort of integrated immediate responses which has helped but obviously I still struggle.

I think one of the hardest things with DBT, especially with some borderline traits, is that it just feels so fake. It feels like all that intensity is being ignored - whether it is internal or external. I remember I'd get so annoyed in group (and still do with T2 from time to time) that we're doing all these 'skills' instead of what I felt was WORKING on my emotions. It felt lots of times like I was being trained in a new way of denial. It took time before I realized it was to calm the intensity so that I COULD deal with the feelings because the intensity was causing the self-harm stuff and putting me in to a total state of triggered blur that my feelings were denied ANYWAY. So now sometimes if I'm angry I can say... okay... I'm angry now what do I do? Instead of I'm angry and then automatically doing impulsively whatever I could to stop feeling so crappy.

Anyway, I can really relate completely to feeling like I didn't have the emotional stuff, that it was the opposite and I'm shutting down just like you're saying and the struggle I had/have to get a handle on it. I hope this is helpful in some way.

((Brokes)) - If it's not triggering can I ask what happened that made DBT crummy for you? Most people I know who have also taken it have not liked it at all, too! I found it really hard to appreciate for a VERY long time when I first started. Don't think I've rolled my eyes more in my life.

((((LL))))!!! Have missed you!

I was convinced for the first six months of therapy that I must be BPD from abandonment issues, self-destructive feelings, identity disturbance and other dissociative symptoms. But in other ways, it is completely opposite to how I am, like I am the least impulsive person I know and I don't seem to be able to get very angry (or at least I must dissociate it right after I do). I have been told by several people who know me very well (family and friends) that I am the most "in control" person they know and they will never believe I have issues as a result...yay invalidation! Even the destructive stuff seems pretty limited to one or two "parts" and though it comes up often, it just...goes away. Anyway, I've accepted that some of those borderline traits fit me really well and they are ones that often overlap with other diagnoses like CPTSD, DDNOS, DID, etc. I think a lot of what I experience is affected by the dissociation (like I have some very anxious parts regarding abandonment and some very dismissive parts), so while I can relate to what a lot of BPD people feel, I also shut down to it fairly quickly and often. I just haven't managed to find a good fit for regulating myself when I'm not shutting down, numbing out, etc. Often, I think I've been successful, but it turns out I just sat with it for a while and then dissociated after it got too much. I guess I'm building up my tolerance. If I avoid triggers, which are largely relational (very limiting to a satisfying life), I can manage to avoid most of the traits I mentioned, but as soon as I get close to others, all that stuff gushes up to the surface, I guess.

I'm not making sense here, but I guess I'm saying that even though I'm not diagnosed BPD and I objectively now think it's really not the best fit for me, there are a lot of things I share in common with it. I have a friend who was dishonorably discharged from the military with that diagnosis and I wouldn't be surprised if my nephews' dad is as well and I can both relate to them and also very much tell the difference between their lack of self-control and my hyper self-control (i.e. I "know" this overwhelming affect exists inside and I can't deal with it other than dissociating, but no one else ever sees it, because the behavior is regulated, just not in the most healthy manner). I don't know if that makes sense...

Well, I don't want to put down DBT because maybe it does work for some people. AND if you are one that it works for, then I hope that you wont read further because I am not the biggest fan. If you are still reading, you've been warned. Don't hate me.

Old T and I had a huge fight over DBT. I told her it was a "crock of shit." I'd never seen her so mad at me. It was actually quite awesome now that I think of it. I told her that I felt like it was telling me to SHOVE my feelings more inside of me, PUSH them away, IGNORE them. I didn't like it and I felt like when I was in extreme emotional distress--I'd get the same refrain "Use your skills!" Oh how those words send anger through out me...even to this day. So, I didn't have the BEST DBT therapist. I didn't have the best DBT experience. That T all around was probably the worst possible experience of my life. SO, my mind could be changed. It could be shifted if I were to encounter a DBT therapist that helped me. I'm not completely closed off to the idea, but I am a bigger proponent for depth oriented therapy. I feel like it definitely has more therapeutic factors in relation to helping a person discover their true self through a healing or corrective emotional experience with a long term therapist.

I do believe that DBT skills are good, like Catalyst showed an example of. I wouldn't necessarily say that they are all bad because those are skills that maybe we should have learned earlier in life that will help us to regulate things a little better. I just think the pattern of thinking and feeling inside of me is pretty hard to change...and I'm as stubborn as you can get... so, long term therapy is probably more effective towards change for me.

I think the different methods and how they work on different people are great..I think whatever works for each individual is a blessing.. the mind is so complex and of course it's not going to be fixed by just one way. My daughter once said after seeing a ONE WAY street sign "Mommy, there is NOT just one way. There are many ways!" I will never forget that. She was 4 at the time. The most brilliant thing I had heard in a long time. I try to apply that to life now.

LOL! Cat. You hit the nail on the head though for me though...the fakeness... well, the fact that I had a fake therapist trying to push that on me at the time didn't help. Fake therapist met with DBT. Not a good match for this girl!

Diagnosis was a relief. I don't want to be labeled, but I was definitely more able to understand where some of this originated and how I behaved due to some of the things I have been through. Also, knowing that childhood trauma tends to play a part in the development of personalities and how my own story constructed who I am today made me realize that I wasn't at fault for this disorder. It was something that happened as a result of the unfortunate circumstances I was in as a child, and due to the fact that I was raised by children themselves. Even though T is adamant that I only have traits, I tend to go back to researching BPD because I find comfort in understanding those traits a little bit more. I feel like understanding things is the way through them. Better understanding of self is going to help me find authenticity more easily. If I refused to acknowledge the darkness of my disorder then I might not be able to truly see myself for what I am and what I am dealing with. I hope that makes sense. I am against those who put down BPD'ers and the negativity in relation to those suffering the disorder. I am embracing it, and I have faith in finding the courage to heal for myself and then I am hoping one day when I can find that peace to help others heal, too. I know what it's like to go through this hell AND I want to help people like me.

Anger is a huge issue. I never thought I was an angry person before. I thought I was sensitive..or emotional, but I never recognized the anger. That was until recently when I started really watching my feelings and labeling them. Anger is HUGE. There's a big ball of fire inside of me and it's fueled by it. I believe it's natural to feel so much after after the experiences of life and not getting my emotional needs met as a young child. It's hard not to be angry when you've been told your entire life that angry is bad. Expressing it is difficult for me--at least towards another individual. I tend to get angry at myself... and self destruct. I'm a stuffer. I stuff things down. How about you guys??

Good conversation here...

I definitely have it, but not officially diagnosed. i was always confused by it when reading the criteria but it wasn't until I read more about it and realised the nuances.

And for me - yes I didn't have the outward, public signs of anger or social issues / relationship issues - I am very self contained and hell, people don't even know I have any mental illness - let alone what I do have.

BUT.......when youngT termed me. I went BPD crazy. in 1 week I showed all 9 criteria well and truly. I assume for me then, that I spend so much energy containing it all, that i didn't let it out - I let it out because I was attached to her and she really meant something to me.

Since then I recognise I have it and I now realise how I do struggle with the relationship issues on a daily basis.

I act IN instead of acting OUT like a lot of the classic BPDers do.

I realise in my life that instead of being demonstrative with people when I have issues with them, I would just cut them off and they wouldn't be in my life. And i was (and am) ok with that.

For me - i had to look inside my head on each of the criteria and work out whether my thinking was "normal" or like others would be in a situation. I always seems to have more trouble with certain things and would dwell and cogitate on things that bug me. And me cutting people off and having such black and white thinking is quite extreme and that is my default position on everything.

My T realises how much I turn feelings off instead of facing them - she is always asking me how shut down I have been.

And the SH stuff - well to me that wasn't normal. And me wanting to not be alive all the time as an answer to everything seemed a bit - loopy!!!!

Then when I look back on my life - there were weirdness and patches of weird thinking, reactions all through my life.

I am comfortable with it. Apart from my T and famiily T - no one know of this at all. I am not likely to tell anyone as it is difficult to explain.

SD

I don't have a BPD diagnosis and never have (my official dx is adjustment disorder) but I wanted to put a word in here that may sound cliche, but I think is true. EVERYONE has some borderline traits sometimes. Really.

When you look at the list of criteria for BPD, you will see that all of them stem from different combinations of poor emotional regulation, poor impulse control, poor sense of self, and insecure attachment. (The last one is a bit redundant, since people with secure attachment seldom have emotional regulation or sense of self problems as far as I can tell, but whatever.)

So if you look at me for example, I have good impulse control but insecure attachment, and my emotional regulation isn't awesome but it's not terrible either. However, a year ago when I started therapy, I was going through so many changes in my life and processing so much which I had preciously just blocked out that what emotional regulation I did have completely went to sh**. At that time I very nearly would have qualified for BPD (in fact for a while I thought I might have it), as I was having SI behaviors, lots of moodiness and irritability, identity issues, lots of relationship insecurity, etc. After a year of therapy, and more stability in my life, I don't meet ANY of those criteria any more.

I guess the point behind all of this is just that hearing that you have "some borderline traits" doesn't really tell you much. All you can really conclude is that you either have emotional regulation issues, impulse control problems, relationship problems, sense of self problems, or a combination of those. Not too specific, huh? So maybe you need to inquire a little further about WHICH BPD traits you might have so you can target those more clearly.

Hello Cat, thanks for the welcome back.

quote:

it just feels so fake. It feels like all that intensity is being ignored - whether it is internal or external. I remember I'd get so annoyed in group (and still do with T2 from time to time) that we're doing all these 'skills' instead of what I felt was WORKING on my emotions. It felt lots of times like I was being trained in a new way of denial.

Bingo! That’s exactly how I view it, and anything CBT-ish to be honest. That sense of denial and playing down the intensity of the emotion, almost ignoring and invalidating the feeling itself, when a big part of my problem is NOT being able to have or express those feelings (I imagine a cathartic sort of scenario where I’d get immense relief from just ‘letting go’… bit of a pipe dream probably.) It’s actually very reassuring to hear you describe how it did work for you and how you felt the same way but were able to get to a point where you understood and saw its value. Thank you for that, yes it is helpful to hear. And LOL about rolling your eyes so much, I can just picture it .


Hello again Anon. Yes what you say does make sense – that’s part of why I’m so dubious about BPD as a potential diagnosis, or at least traits thereof. In the same way as you, I have very intense INTERNAL emotional responses to things, that immediately dissipate or disappear the moment I notice them or try and ‘feel’ them. So outwardly nothing shows, and even inwardly I’m left sitting there wondering wtf? I was just feeling REALLY bad and now nothing, high and dry and totally in my head. I suspect that’s something similar to what you are describing?

Where I don’t fit, I think, is that I neither dissociate nor have any self harm or ED propensities. Which seem to me to be hallmarks of the BP dx. But maybe stuffing feelings in such a drastic way is a form of SH? Maybe it’s not all about behaviour, as I think. It can be very easy to find aspects of just about every dx in oneself, I suppose that’s why I’m a bit wary about taking on this P’s suggestion. I’d like to be more certain before I give myself a label which will influence how I view myself...

Hm got to go get up now, and have lunch (it’s a Sunday, I’m allowed to slob around in my dressing gown until 11.30am .)

So will be back this afternoon to reply some more. BBS...

LL

Back again, washed scrubbed fed and watered.

Brokes, thanks for explaining more how you felt about DBT. I have to say that I would feel the same way and I’ve only read the literature and heard others talk about it!

I find it really telling that your OldT got mad about your reaction to DBT, I’d have expected a decent T to acknowledge and even understand how people are likely to feel about the coldness and seeming anti-emotionalism of the DBT set up, NOT get all pissed off that the client isn’t going all golly gosh gee whiz what a great thing this DBT stuff is.

I hear you about the depth therapy – I can see DBT working for a lot of people in a lot of different situations, but I also have this sense that for someone with a history of profound emotional deprivation, the most important healing aspect would be found in the relationship with the T. At least that’s my current stance, though maybe it’s possible to have both – a decent emotionally giving T AND learning all the skills that DBT/CBT offer.

quote:

Even though T is adamant that I only have traits, I tend to go back to researching BPD because I find comfort in understanding those traits a little bit more. I feel like understanding things is the way through them.

This is very much how I feel about getting some sort of dx or pointer to what might be ‘officially’ wrong with me. It’s understanding that is power, and healing. Also, I’ve spent my entire life taking responsibility (read ‘blame’) for being how I am, if I had some sort of external dx that I could believe in, it would take a lot of the blame off me, make me not responsible for being this way, and would allow me some space and distance to start changing. I have high hopes...

About anger – I think it’s good that you have been able to recognize and accept hitherto ignored/avoided angry feelings – anger can be really insidiously destructive if not brought into awareness (projections, defensiveness, paranoia etc…) I actually deliberately set out to be angry, it was the only thing that was going to save me at the time – now I’m not sure if I’m genuinely angry or whether it’s just because I’ve pushed for angry feelings in defence against the softer more vulnerable totally unacceptable to me feelings (like shame, hurt, neediness, loneliness…).

Whatever, I now recognize a huge well of incandescent rage within, which is so threatening (not to me – I don’t turn it on myself, at least not overtly - but because I fear other’s retaliation) and so alienating, that I have a hell of a job living with it. On the one hand I want to get rid of it, on the other I really really want just to express it, dump it all on someone and have it accepted as ok. That’s what I’ve been seeking from therapy for quite some time now, someone who is going to be comfortable with unreasonable and irrational rage, who is not going to retaliate and not take it personally, but will let me get the poison out… I’ve always had a thing about anger and our society – I reckon that it’s having to repress, control and squash anger and be all nice and polite and reasonable all the time that’s caused a lot of problems. But that’s for another thread…

quote:

Anger is HUGE. There's a big ball of fire inside of me and it's fueled by it. I believe it's natural to feel so much after after the experiences of life and not getting my emotional needs met as a young child. It's hard not to be angry when you've been told your entire life that angry is bad

I think your words here could speak to a lot of people, they certainly resonate very much for me! It’s like a catch 22, the more you’ve had to stuff anger, the stronger and more intense it becomes, the greater the fear with having to stuff it so it doesn’t explode in a great volcanic engulfment of the whole world (ending in rejection abandonment retaliation punishment and ostracism, psychological and emotional death…). Unlike shame and other feelings which can get projected but which don’t necessarily incur genuine threat from others, anger is one that is most definitely unacceptable to the majority of people, and you can guarantee that it will elicit a negative response from the other, so there really is something to fear in expressing anger in an uncontrolled unaware way.

Which reminds me, isn’t abandonment a big issue in BPD?

Thanks for sharing Brokes, I hope you’re hanging in there at the moment, what with what’s going on between you and T right now.

LL

SD, I like what you’re saying about understanding the nuances, I think that’s what this P I saw was trying to say – that there are layers and levels of it that can apply, without having to take on the full blown dx and its definitive (but simplistic) DSM characteristics. Lol at least that’s my understanding of what she meant.

Interesting that you can identify yourself as BPD though you haven’t been given it as a formal dx. Does it bother you? Would it be easier if someone gave you a formal label? (It would me, that’s why I’m asking.)

quote:

I act IN instead of acting OUT like a lot of the classic BPDers do.

Now that makes sense to me too. It’s the behavioural aspects that maybe give an incorrect picture of BPD. So that feeling emotionally out of control is the issue, not how you act on it? How do you see acting in? Do you mean with SU/SI impulses and thoughts? Turning it all against yourself instead of dumping on the world?

quote:

I am comfortable with it.

Good for you! (((( SD ))))


BLT, can I ask what adjustment disorder is? I don’t think I’ve come across it before (which means nothing, there are a lot of things I don’t know!)

I like what you say about everyone having borderline traits sometimes. Too true, just like everyone has narcissistic characteristics too. I guess it becomes an issue though when those traits are constant and fixed and counterproductive in an ongoing way. There are certainly things about my set up that are constant, that don’t change even over the decades, that are decidedly dysfunctional and getting in the way of my living safely – if I can label them borderline and be comfortable with that, I’d be happy to take on the label. But yeah, there’s always the danger of adopting labels for fundamental human characteristics, turning being human into pathology.

quote:

So maybe you need to inquire a little further about WHICH BPD traits you might have so you can target those more clearly.

Not a bad idea at all – when I see this P next I’ll certainly be asking her more about what she meant. It’s in the meantime, I want to have as much info as I can in order to work out for myself whether I’m happy with such a dx or not so I don’t get all defensive and resentful when I do see her again.

Thanks guys for all the great responses!

LL

Hey Lampie,

Yes acting IN - SU/Si, self punishment in whatever format, cutting off from society to avoid situations, self medicating, risky behaviours, self destructive stuff.

I might feel every emotion that an "acting out BPDer" feels but I don't act on it in public - i digest it and it comes out eventually.

Have told my T that I have every crazy thought of a BPD person but people wouldn't know it from seeing me.

I don't want a label because I never go to GPs and haven't been to a doctor for nearly a decade and I don't want it documented anywhere. BPD as a label is unforgiving and I think medical people assume too much about it. With BDP i really believe that people see the label and don't try and see the person.

I am comfortable with it because the label gives me an answer and a pathway on how to improve the bits I can improve on and to avoid situations that trigger other things.

Isn't there suggestion that they want to change the name that suits it better. something like emotion regulation disorder - I think that would help things a lot.

sd

Thanks SD for replying.

I been doing a bit of researching on BPD on the internet and came up with an interesting sub-set of BPD, something called 'quiet borderline' which seems to match what you are talking about, the acting in as opposed to the acting out of borderline rage.

It's not mentioned much in 'official' descriptions but there are a ton of blogs out there talking about it, and to a degree I can relate that sort of thing more to me than the official dx - which I am having big trouble relating to me at all.

Oh yes, there is a name change for BPD, it's already known in Europe (apparently!) as Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder. Huh. I reckon Borderline sounds much better, more serious somehow. Though as you say, it's got such bad press that people instinctively bring out the garlic.

As a quick update, I saw a Pdoc today (appointment made from weeks ago via our national health service, as Pdocs are impossible to make appointments with privately) and am flipping out big time at the moment. Right now I'd be really really happy to be dxed BPD, as this guy today threw a whole new thing at me, reckons I might have Paranoid Personality Disorder, which has really pulled the rug for me. More so because nearly all the criteria really do fit me, but like they are just the tail end of a whole lot of other things going on in me, yet the dx seems to say that that's all there is to the poor sucker labelled PPD. Sometimes I think mental health is bollocks. Labels and DXs that just force people into models of pathology that are very difficult to stop influencing how one sees oneself. Bah I am a really unhappy bunny tonight

LL

LL,
The stuff you found the "quiet borderline" was more along the line of what I was referring to so looks like you found it yourself.

"Sometimes I think mental health is bollocks. Labels and DXs that just force people into models of pathology that are very difficult to stop influencing how one sees oneself."

I can relate to this above...I just went to my GP and have agreed to go see a "Pdoc" to see if there is more going on than just the dysthymia to get the meds right...now I feel unsure of what I've agreed to.

Sorry this is making you an unhappy bunny! Glad you're back though.


Hopeful

Hi there Hopeful, yeah the Quiet Borderline seems completely different from the classic and usual descriptions of borderline (which makes you wonder how many people in the past have been either misdiagnosed or given a diagnosis that doesn't fit properly... I suppose it's not an exact science, but still...)

I share your doubts about agreeing to see if there is anything else going on apart from what you've been told, it's very scary wondering if there is something else so obviously 'wrong' with you that others can see but of which you are oblivious.

I'm coming to the conclusion that what others see objectively is never truly accurate because mostly dxs and the like are given on the basis of externally observed BEHAVIOUR which I don't think accurately reflects what's going on inside the person's head. Not mine anyway. So I'm being quite dubious about this whole DX thing at the moment (but that's me being defensive

Good luck with your appointment, I hope it turns out to be positive and helpful for you.

LL

Hello Fawn nice to meet you (and good of you to come back, if I have you right )

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. In principle I would agree that of the therapies available, psychoanalytic therapy offers the most chance of finding a T who is experienced intelligent and has a depth understanding of psychic processes and unconscious motivations, all of which I’d consider necessary to understanding complex personality disorders (or in simple LL terms, being screwed up!)

In reality, I’ve seen three psychoTs, none of whom were truly psychoanalytically trained, all of whom related to me from the start in a superficial CBT style and at times dismissive and directive fashion. Like trying to find a Pdoc privately, properly trained and/or experienced psychoTs don’t exist out here in the sticks where I live.

I like your analogy of a crossword puzzle and of course the common denominators are what make getting a dx useful – if for no other reason than ensuring one gets the right treatment. I am finding though that some of the distinctions between personality disorders seem somewhat arbitrary and splitting hairs. A rose by any other name type of thing...

My main beef is that they address only the externally perceived behaviours and ramifications of the disorder, ignoring to a great part the subjective reality of the person. I’d find it infinitely more helpful to have a list of subjective criteria that also defines a disorder – for a start that would tell me the ‘patient’ has been taken seriously and listened to, not just had a behavioural model imposed on him/her based almost entirely on what’s objectively apparent to the observer. Not sure I’m explaining that very well, but it really scares the hell out of me to be labelled or seen in such a cold unemotional unsympathetic clinical objective way and having fixed characteristics and motivations attributed to me that don’t match my own perceptions of myself. Having someone else define my sense of self, scary stuff.

quote:

Similar to how narcissistic personalities tend to use denial to ward off unbearable shame, paranoid based personalities tend to use projection to prevent intense fear.

Very true, as one who has experienced true paranoia, I can testify to the use of projection. Although as a means of preventing intense fear I’m not so sure – it’s the other way around, projections are created out of intense unbearable fear. The trick, for me anyway, is directly dealing with the fear that creates the paranoid perceptions (or projections – though not all paranoid perceptions are ipso facto projections).

Think of the function of fear – it creates itself. You fear something, hey presto you’re likely to create the very thing you fear, simply because a) fear is impossible not to take seriously in the first instance and so you get hooked into believing there IS something to fear before you realize what you’re doing and by the time you realize, it’s too late, you’ve already created the concrete image or perception (even if only in your head) of something to fear, and b) fear sends a message that focuses all of your mind on there being something to fear, and so you create something just to fit the fact that you’re scared. WHAT you create is the uniqueness of the individual, so not the same across the board… I could give dozens of examples of how I’ve created something fearful in external reality that is actually my own personal creation, that someone else who fears the same thing would spontaneously interpret quite differently.

Hm got off on a bit of a hobby horse there, sorry. It’s that I’m currently looking directly at fear and lots of things are making sense, so it’s what’s uppermost on my mind. It’s also quite freeing and empowering to be dealing face to face with fear, recognizing fear before it gets to the point of creating an apparently real external reality TO be feared, cuts down anxiety by miles. At least in the times when I’m able to pre-empt the fear. When it’s automatic and spontaneous and so much a part of one’s life experience and way of being, it’s really difficult to be aware enough in each moment to stop the status quo from rolling on with impunity.

quote:

This is a good opportunity for you, if you can find it in you to trust the process.

LOL now that’s the big issue isn’t it? Particularly being PPD (suspicious, apparently not a good candidate for therapy because therapy is based on trusting the T and us PPDers just don’t trust with good reason I might add, but then a PPDer WOULD say that wouldn't they? Can't win with this dx). I’m sure I could trust the process, what I have problems with is trusting the person who is supposed to be directing the process. Well I just repeated myself there didn’t I .

Thanks for the encouragement and praise. And yes, I do like crossword puzzles!

Hope to see you posting more on forum.

LL

Hi LL,

I came across this article and thought it looked promising:

paranoia in BPD

To present an alternative view that is no less or no more important, I want to add that despite the fact that my T is cognitively trained, he is helping me change the way I view myself, others and the world in the hopes that it will change my behaviors.

PD's take a long time to treat. IMHO, long-term therapy with any type of therapist - as long as there is a good fit between the two personalities - who is able to create a safe, loving and accepting environment for the client would heal a pd regardless of their orientation.

I think the more negatively the parent treated the child and/or the more unmet emotional needs and/or the more unsuccessful the client is in getting those needs met, the more intense the transference. The degree of unmet needs will be in direct proportion to the intensity of the transference. The distortion arises out of the unmet needs and may also be in proportion to the degree of unmet needs.

I hope the article gives you some hope that the Pdoc was wrong wrong wrong. Grrrrrrrr. I hate it when people make pronouncements based on meeting with someone for an hour. It drives me NUTS. Actually, it drives me more nuts when it's someone in a position of authority who proffers their educated and highly specialized opinion intending it to influence the receiver while also knowing that there is a probability that the receiver will rely on such information. Grrrrrrrrr again.

Hello Liese, thanks for the link. It seems to be about comparing paranoia between two different types of disorder – bpd and schizophrenia – and makes me think that paranoia is a pretty global thing that I suspect just about everyone in the world has some experience of, to a greater or lesser degree. Which kind of begs the question about just how precise can a diagnosis be, when there are so many aspects and facets which overlap on so many fronts.

I always find it difficult to relate to stuff written about paranoia, because there’s always the presumption that the person experiencing the paranoia doesn’t know it. And that it has to be pointed out to them or they only realize it after the event. Makes it hard for me to feel understood, because I’m nearly always excruciatingly aware, even IN the experience, that I’m feeling paranoid. I think that’s why I take so much issue with diagnoses in general, they are applied to a person as if that person is stupid or blind or oblivious of their own internal experience.

quote:

IMHO, long-term therapy with any type of therapist - as long as there is a good fit between the two personalities - who is able to create a safe, loving and accepting environment for the client would heal a pd regardless of their orientation.

I think you are right Liese. It was only after I’d seen my umpteenth therapist that I realized the truth of this, the orientation was almost irrelevant, for me to find healing I needed to find someone I could trust, and for that to happen, the T had to create that environment you are speaking of. Though I do think certain orientations are more likely to create that environment than others. At least in principle.

quote:

The degree of unmet needs will be in direct proportion to the intensity of the transference.

Now that’s an interesting thought. I think you’re right here too. Now if you could only get this message across to therapists – especially those who see anger and anger based transference as unacceptable and to be controlled or rejected.

I share your anger about people in positions of authority making pronouncements that must by their very nature, influence the person hearing them. I think mental health practitioners (umbrella term for the lot for them) hold a great deal of power in that respect and can do untold damage. Got to feel sorry for people trapped in the system, who have little or no power to counter the stuff they get told or the way they are treated. We are lucky to be able to pick and choose I think. At least, that’s what I tell myself.

Thanks for replying Liese.

LL

Thanks for the link BG. In fact I have read this guy before, and I find a lot of what he says very interesting.

When I last read him I wasn’t thinking in terms of personality disorders, I shall go and have another look through his blog to see if it makes any more sense to me now.

Fawn, if you haven’t read this guy before, it’s interesting to note that he is a psychoanalyst. Wonder how you see his approach compared to what you understand of psychoanalytic therapy vis a vis personality disorders?

Thanks again for posting BG.

LL

Thanks BG.

quote:

I hope when you do get better, that your voice gets louder. We want to hear you and you need to be heard.

I love this Fawn. Morgs, I want to repeat what Fawn said as well. So glad you posted here and also glad that what we’re discussing has some meaning for you. I hope you weather your T’s absence ok. I guess it must be reassuring to know you could go inpatient, but it must be frightening thinking you are in such a bad way that you NEED inpatient? Hugs to you ((((((( Morgs ))))))



Fawn! Wow what a great post. Can’t even begin to do it justice (not without writing another novel anyway.) And thanks for posting those links, they are really interesting.

quote:

Now, I have found salted caramel ice cream... unfortunately..and am burned out.

LOL every cloud eh?

I’m very glad you set yourself up a new account (I like your new name too ) and hope you don’t cancel it but leave yourself the option to come and go whenever you feel the need or the urge to post here. I know I’m echoing others’ thoughts when I say that your posts are always interesting and helpful and bring a different perspective to many issues discussed here. So while everyone understands the need to leave the forum from time to time, I do hope you won’t make it a final leaving.

And thank you very much for all the wonderful things you’ve said about me . It was talking to you oh ages ago now, years in fact, about psychoanalysis that convinced me to go try a psychoanalytic T – without your input I’d have continued to avoid that branch of therapy like the plague. I still think you were right about a lot of what you said – the fly in the ointment was my not being able to find suitably qualified/experienced psychoTs in this area. Don’t know if you remember, but the one I managed to see, I took a brief break from to think about whether I had enough internal strength and external support to plunge into a psychoanalytic therapy – on deciding that yes indeed I thought this would be a good thing to do and trying to get back to see him, the bastard terminated me . And in a hypocritical and backstabbing way too! Totally shattered my new found belief in psychoanalysis.

Which brings me to the notion of expectations. You may well be right here, that one of the things screwing up my attempts at getting therapeutic help is my expectations. In my defence I have to say that I am pretty clear on the kind of help I think I need and that perhaps therapy itself is not able to meet that need, rather than my expectations of therapy being unrealistic or excessive. Well, unrealistic maybe, in that after nearly three dozen Ts (yikes when put like that it IS a lot isn’t it?) I’m still messed up – but I reckon that speaks more to the inadequacy of therapy than to my expectations. After all, I’m the sick one looking for help!

Defences – spot on comments I think. At least for myself, I recognize that the very defences I have in place that formed to deal with severe trauma eons ago, are what is pathological now. That is, the defences themselves are the problem, not what they were formed to defend. A kind of self perpetuating spiral of pathology that is natch, extremely difficult to break out of without external input and support.

quote:

The behavior and symptom changes come naturally. That's part of the beauty of it all.

This is the part of it that makes me sad to be such a failure at therapy. It’s the premise behind the focus on the healing nature of the therapeutic relationship (irrespective of modality) – changes happen, as you say, naturally, not planned or worked at or cognitively anticipated. The magical thing that I did expect of therapy, to come away from sessions feeling that SOMETHING had changed, for the better, without needing to know what or why. Never happened .

quote:

Therefore, instead of understanding that their experience of the same object (i.e., a person, including the person of self) has changed, they instead believe the object itself has changed.

Took this from the section in the first link under heading number 2. I think this is the first time EVER I’ve come across an explanation of the results of splitting v being able to hold both good and bad representations at the same time. I’ve never understood how they differed, or more to the point, how it was possible to hold both bad and good AT THE SAME TIME. Effectively it’s NOT possible. Effectively what that means is one recognizes that one’s OWN FEELINGS towards the object have changed (rather than the object changing from good to bad and back again) and feelings being feelings it’s perfectly comprehensible that in x amount of time my negative feelings towards the object will fade and I’ll feel positive towards it again. Then I’ll remember that I felt bad towards it, but that won’t affect (much) how I now feel towards it (and vice versa). The key is in recognizing that the perceptions of good/bad of the object, are one’s own feelings and interpretations, and decisions about the object rest on being able to accept that one is guided by how one feels rather than who or what the object actually IS. (Which gives the lie to statement in the link above about people with adequate childhood development being able to see others accurately. No-one can see another accurately because one is always experiencing the world via one’s own emotional/experiential filters. But that’s a discussion for another day...) Just had to say all this as a penny has dropped for me in terms of understanding some of the psychological literature. Not sure I've explained my little eureka moment very well though

quote:

But there is a reason PDs are classified with mental retardation. Your intrapsyche structure is not mature/developed. The primitive defenses go hand in hand with the cognitive capabilities of a child.

LOL!!!!!! You have a way with words he he he but I do get what you are saying here. Applying it to me, I have this problem whereby the defences themselves are primitive but my awareness and understanding OF those defences in me, are extremely sophisticated. Originating in a definite and long standing split, simply put between thinking/feeling but not as clear as that. Defences around defences around defences. Makes my head spin sometimes.

quote:

My therapist said that was the closest that fit

Now that’s interesting, I was always under the impression that psychoTs didn’t ‘do’ diagnosis. On the whole, the way you’ve described your T over the years, I got the impression that he didn’t fit the usual psychoT mould. Anyway, it’s interesting that you couldn’t apply a specific disorder to yourself, but could find affinity with BPD to a degree. I get what you’re saying about trying to pigeonhole oneself into a specific all encompassing dx, which can be counterproductive, but at the same time, the diagnoses are bandied about with such precision that it would be very difficult for a patient to argue about it if they felt the dx didn’t fit their internal experience. As you rightly point out, most dxs are given on the basis of behavioural observation not subjective reality. I gather that psychoTs use a different form of diagnosis that is based on, but doesn’t slavishly follow, the DSM categories?

LOL I’m not sure it’s a very flattering thing to say, that the healthiest level of personality organization is neurotic! (As per the second and third links in your post). Shades of Freudian psychology which more or less said that there’s no such thing as normal or any possibility of surviving childhood happily. You're either anally or orally retentive, the best you can hope for is Klein's depressive state. How horribly negative. The psychoanalytic tradition has in my view brought a lot of unnecessary pessimism to psychology. But that’s an aside…

You know, I still don’t understand what is meant by ‘fragmented sense of self’. But again, that’s a discussion for another day... Oh lol, I just finished reading the third link and it actually does a pretty good job of explaining it. I think I’m getting a better idea of what they mean.

quote:

I think you will have better luck with a new perspective...I'm hoping I can help you get there.

Well thank you so much for that Fawn, I do very much appreciate that you’re so willing to help me . Can’t say I understand everything you are trying to explain, but it’s getting the grey cells ticking over trying to get my head around it. And obviously with my track record of failed therapy, any help I can get I would be grateful for.

Sorry I’ve cherry picked bits and pieces of your post and replied well and truly out of sequence, as well as having missed out quite a lot of things you’ve said that sparked thoughts and ideas in me – but this post is already becoming unwieldy and too long so will finish here. Very interesting discussion Fawn, I hope others are getting as much out of it as I am.

Thank you very much for taking the time to come back and post. (((((( Fawn ))))))

LL

((((((MORGS)))))

I am sorry your T is away for a month but I'm so glad to see you posting. When any of us can share our pain, reach out for help or start to believe that there might be help somewhere, it helps me, anyway, feel that much less alone. (((MORGS))) I hope you can find a suitable inpatient facility and get some well-deserved pampering.

(((((LL)))))

I'm not sure if I misunderstood what you mean here but if I do understand what you mean, I actually experience it as being the opposite.

quote:

The key is in recognizing that the perceptions of good/bad of the object, are one’s own feelings and interpretations, and decisions about the object rest on being able to accept that one is guided by how one feels rather than who or what the object actually IS.

I will try to explain the reason I see it as being the opposite. Say I have a relationship with Amy. And most of the time I have very positive feelings towards Amy - which probably means that she is meeting my emotional needs and not frustrating them. But as a result, I decide Amy is good. However, we hit a bit of a bad patch when she really pisses me off and then suddenly I decide she's bad.

So which is Amy really? Is she good or is she bad? IMO, our feelings give us a clue as to who Amy really is which is related to when she meets our needs and when she doesn't meet our needs. And when she doesn't meet our needs, it's probably because she had different needs. And that's where our emotions are giving us information as to who Amy really is. Perhaps she was extra tired because she worked late the night before and couldn't be available to me. Or perhaps she doesn't like horror movies and I do and I was pissed she wouldn't go see a horror movie with me because I like horror movies.

So the way I see it is, that my positive feelings about her have to do with the needs that she's meeting and the negative feelings have to do with the needs that she's not meeting. That is the subjective part. The objective part is that Amy is mostly a really nice person who sometimes works late and gets overtired or doesn't like horror movies and won't always be available to me.

So, I can do two things. I can get angry with Amy for not meeting my needs on those occasions. That's where we think what we experience on an emotional level IS reality. Or, I can stand back and say, I know Amy and she is basically a good person but has different needs sometimes and so I am not going to take it personally. I just need to adjust my needs or my expectations of what Amy can do for me or give me, etc.

It's learning about who a person is. It's the point of view. Whether or not you are looking at it from in the inside of your emotions or with a little emotional distance and clarity.

I don't know if I explained that right or if it makes any sense whatsoever.

((FAWN)) I wasn't even thinking about the negative transference when I wrote what I wrote so I will have to think about how or even if what I wrote applies to transference across the board. I was thinking about the positive transference that develops and the intensity of that experience. But I suppose if you have a negative template towards your mother, for instance, that probably developed because of unmet needs. And, so the intensity of the negativity might also be in direct proportion to the unmet needs as well because the less you got, the more pissed off you might get and carry that over into other relationships.

Liese I think we are saying the same thing .

My comment relates more specifically to the ‘pathology’ I experience where I know I can’t trust my own emotional perceptions of the other, because they are coloured by so much of my own stuff. At the same time, recognizing that actually there is no fixed knowable external objective reality but all seen through the prism of my own emotional perceptions, makes it easier to drop the need to have to ‘prove’ that for instance, Amy is basically a nice person who sometimes gets overtired... I don’t need to tell myself that, because who Amy really is or isn’t, is irrelevant.

I can decide for myself based on my own emotional dictates, whether I can put up with ‘bad Amy’ for the sake of the ‘good Amy’ I sometimes experience, without having to prove one way or the other that it’s either Amy’s fault, or Amy who is ‘really’ bad (or good) or in any way dependent on having anything to do with Amy’s objective reality.

The real issue though for screwed up people like me is whether I can safely rely on my own emotional perceptions or am I going to end up totally alone and abandoned because my emotions keep telling me that EVERYONE is mostly ‘bad’ (or ‘good’ but that’s probably not so dangerous...) In which case I have to squash and deny my instinctive and spontaneous emotional reactions to things and try and find a more objective rational way of relating to the world, usually by adopting what other people claim to be truth and reality. Which results in exacerbating the split between thinking and feeling, inner and outer reality, objective/subjective experience, and so on and so forth. This creates even more of an imperative to get a fix on the other’s objective reality (Amy is bad, Amy is good – as opposed to, I experience Amy as bad/good because of how I’m feeling about her behaviour towards me, but I can’t trust my feelings to be telling me any kind of truth so I need to know the ‘truth’ about Amy OUT THERE, apart from my feelings...) You see the dilemma and the catch 22 one gets caught up in here?

Easier by far to categorize Amy as all good or all bad and decide on that basis, than to manoeuvre the minefield of my own subjective perceptions, most of which probably have little or nothing to do with Amy in reality anyway...) So it's quite freeing to realize that the good/bad black/white splitting doesn't need resolving in external reality (ie is not dependent on finding out the 'truth' out there), but can be resolved via an understanding that it's my emotional reactions that create the sense of good/bad in the first (and last) place...

LOL this stuff is so clear in my own head, but trying to put it into words is so difficult. I hope this makes some sort of sense, it doesn’t sound very coherent to me when I reread it, but can’t think how to explain it any better without writing far too many words .

LL

I am supposed to be meeting with the Therapist Wednesday and he wants to talk to me about Borderline Personality Disorder. May I just say, I am terrified. I want to tell him that I DO NOT want to talk about it, know about it. hear about it...

I am truly afraid it will push me over the edge. I already struggle with how I am due to my childhood and people who were supposed to care for me and didn't. I can't take hearing that for the way I am there is actually a name and that I must work my way through it even though I didn't cause any of it.

I am trying to contain myself from having it affect me...but I truly think that I won't be able to hear what it is, how it comes about without having a complete meltdown in his office...and that is what I have been trying to avoid.

Has your therapist spoken to any of you about this and how did you take it?

((((TAS))))

I know it sounds like an awful diagnosis and seems very scary. I was afraid of the diagnosis myself but I've come to really feel lots of empathy for it, for all the years it was misunderstood and all the pain the people who have it are in.

A while back, I asked my therapist over the phone if I had it and he wanted to know why I asked him that. Honestly, I just threw it out there because it gets so much attention these days. Anyway, he said at my next appointment that we would go over the DSM together. I couldn't help but wonder if the reason he wanted to talk about it is because he wanted to know if I was SIing.

We did go over it and he said I had 3 traits but he completely skipped one of the categories and I let him. One which might not fit now but did a while back.

I just asked him again the other day if I have it and he said no and said I have a little bit of everything! LOL! Typical that I wouldn't fall neatly into a box.

quote:

that I must work my way through it even though I didn't cause any of it.

It does really suck that we get left having to clean up the mess, doesn't it?

Tas, whatever it is, it is and hopefully you will come to accept that. Those are just words and you are a human being. You are much richer and more wonderful than a DSM diagnosis.

Maybe he wants to talk about it to use it as a springboard to get you to open up?

Tas.

In therapy if you have the symptoms, traits, issues at the moment - you have those cluster of issues no matter if your T labels it or not. The label doesn't make it official - you are what you are, you are suffering because of stuff that has happened in your past, it annoys me that T's want to diagnose all the time !!!!

The thing with PD's - that I try and remember is that the label isn't permanent (Or doesn't have to be permanent). YES, the vulnerability we all have for meeting the criteria will be there for us, but at times in our life we aren't going to be in that HOT ZONE.

Say these are my feelings right this second:
* i have a bad sense of identity
* i do some SH and think of SU
* have lots of arguments with people, conflict, they annoy me, rather be alone, they are too hard
* have issues with rejection, trust, abandonment, etc
* either hate people or love them and if they stuff me around, I cut them off
* sometimes i dissociate and go numb so I don't feel any pain
* issues with anger, extreme emotions, regulating any emotions.

Ok - so say if I say that to a doctor - he is going to say - You have the traits for BPD. Or diagnose and label me with BPD.

In a month - half of these might have alleviated and if I went to that same doctor - he wouldn't sayit.

But , i am still the same person - whether I have the label or not. I still have my issues and I am still ME.

The label is for the doctor's purposes ONLY - not for mine. The DSM was built for the medical profession so they could sort out all the things that might happen to a human being. A bunch of researchers have put all those symptoms together in clusters and made labels to categories people for THEIR purpose.


I am still ME and I am still hurting and I am still needing a huge amount of help. And I still need my T to help me navigate through this mud.

Personally - the label doesn't bother me, because I don't put a huge amount of emphasis (or respect) to a label. But - it does match me and for that reason I find it easier to identify as a person having BPD.

I have never told anyone else - just my T.

Tas: I hope I am explaining this ok. I seemed to have fumbled and bumbled my way through it.
Somedays

Liese:

Thank you for taking time to share your experience with me I really appreciate it. I am hoping that I can just talk and not break down. I know it's 'okay' to do that in therapy...I just would prefer not to.

I am working on accepting 'what is' but I am having an extremely difficult time with all of this. I keep putting on my strong face and try to keep moving forward...

To better days ahead,
T.

Thank you Somedays! Thank you for telling me about your experiences and the label of BPD and keeping it in the right perspective

I am afraid I am going to be a permanent fixture in the therapists office for a while. I may need to just accept that as well.

Thank you for your kind words T.

Hi TAS... could you ask your T why he has come to the conclusion it's BPD and not complex-PTSD? They are close dx's in many cases and although many are truly complex PTSD they also have some traits of BPD... yet complex PTSD falls into a totally different category than BPD which is a personality disorder and not a stress disorder. Complex PTSD is very favorably treated with in depth long-term psycho-dynamic therapy.

Just a suggestion that may be helpful for you to discuss with your T.

I'm really glad to see you around asking questions about these issues and contributing your thoughts.

TN

True North,

I have been diagnosed with PTSD and see a Psychiatrist once a month. The problem is that I feel trapped within myself. I don't know how to get out. I have felt this way for a long time now...and although I have purposely avoided knowing that much about BPD...and have been scared to ask...the Therapist I have has never mentioned a diagnosis...probably because he feels that I could not handle it...but he did say we would talk about it next session...

Just from what I have read...with my traumatic childhood and for years of prolonged trauma...it is a viable option...which I must remember that, if true, is a response to such horrible environments and situations with people...Looking back, I seriously don't know how I survived.

I just am having a hard time with this place I am in and not knowing how to get out. I know it is redundant, but it is so difficult to try to get out of a place that wasn't of your making.

I know some can relate to having to clean up a mess that you didn't make...We will all get to where we need to be, in time.

Thank you True North

quote:

In which case I have to squash and deny my instinctive and spontaneous emotional reactions to things and try and find a more objective rational way of relating to the world, usually by adopting what other people claim to be truth and reality. Which results in exacerbating the split between thinking and feeling, inner and outer reality, objective/subjective experience, and so on and so forth. This creates even more of an imperative to get a fix on the other’s objective reality (Amy is bad, Amy is good – as opposed to, I experience Amy as bad/good because of how I’m feeling about her behaviour towards me, but I can’t trust my feelings to be telling me any kind of truth so I need to know the ‘truth’ about Amy OUT THERE, apart from my feelings...) You see the dilemma and the catch 22 one gets caught up in here?

LL, I think this is a fairly clear explanation. It puts into words my experience in life, the inability to trust my own feelings and endlessly searching for external proof. Perhaps it also explains my endless search for some proof that my T is good or bad for me.
Thanks for sharing this.

Fawn I’m sorry you had to delete, your posts were very helpful and interesting.



TAS it sounds like your T just wants to talk about what YOU think about BPD, rather than that he’s pushing that dx onto you? I gather the very thought of being labelled such is freaking you out – do you think you fit the dx then? As others have said, a dx doesn’t necessarily identify the person, though it’s hard not to be affected in that way. Especially when we’re the ones with the ‘personality disorder’ as a result of what others have done (or not done, as the case may be…) I hope your next session goes infinitely better than you fear



Cogs!!! Nice to see you! I’m glad you understand my rabbiting and though I’m sorry you too have this internal v external reality fight going on, I’m selfishly pleased that I’m not alone in experiencing the world this way. You know that may well be what’s going on with your T – I can relate what you’re saying to all the different Ts I’ve tried to do longer term work with – my instinct/feelings telling me they’re rubbish and don’t get anything of what I’m trying to explain, my head looking for all sorts of objective proof that they’re actually good guys and DO know what they’re doing and that it’s all my pathology and warped perceptions and unmet needs blah blah making me feel so negative towards them.

I suspect that part of my need to maintain other people’s reality of themselves and others as ‘good’, is that it’s intolerable to think the world and people really are as bad as my feelings are telling me they are. In other words, my emotional reality sucks! Haven’t worked out a way of dealing with that one yet .

LL

Thank you Lamplighter! I hope it goes well. Thank you for your encouragement T.