Hey HIC,

It sounds so incredibly stressful. I've often thought that it's a good thing babies are so cute because they can be really demanding even if you don't have a particularly fussy one. And then if you do have a fussy one on top of that, it makes it so much harder.

When I read your thread, it really resonated with me because the way you described you and your husband and your attitudes towards your daughter reminded me so much of me and my husband when we had our first child. One night my daughter was sick with a cold and crying in the middle of the night and my H didn't want to get her either. I was so horrified by his reaction.

I wish now that he and I had sought counselling then so that we could have gotten on the same page re: our parenting styles. Part of it for me, I'm now realizing (and I'm not talking about the night my daughter was sick) was that my abandonment issues were getting in the way. I never wanted my kids to feel abandoned and I went to some crazy lengths to make sure that never happened. I was the one with the separation issues.

That being said, my H also had/has issues of his own to work on.

Parenting is probably the hardest thing I've ever tackled and challenges me in so many ways, physically, emotionally, spiritually.

Keep talking to each other about the kind of parents you want to be. You're already in therapy so that's a great thing. Would H consider going as well? I'm sure he would want to be the very best Dad he could be, he just doesn't know how. But it's a very positive thing that he's able to acknowledge how stressed he gets and then removes himself when it becomes overwhelming for him.

xoxo


Liese

Wow, I can imagine how difficult your position must be right now! You probably feel like you have to parent both your daughter and your husband! For what it's worth, I think you have some very legitimate gripes about his behavior. It sounds like he's not even managing his own feelings and he's certainly incapable of dealing with those of a small child in an accepting way. Is he in therapy also, and if not do you think that might be helpful for him? Would he even consider it?

Hang in there!

Hey HIC,

It is good that you posted. I have done a lot of research on postnatal depression over the years. Some of the things you write about H are signs of depression in dads - Dads get PND too. I think too that your daughter triggers a lot of stuff from his childhood - which is interfering with his attachment to your daughter.

When dads are struggling like this it is so hard for them to bond with their kids - some dads are better when kids get older - toddlers, or pre school and older when the dads can do 'stuff' with them. Unfortunately though - the bond and attachment starts before birth - and is important especially over the next few years. Your hubby is smack back in a really important phase in your daughters life.

I am wondering whether there are really good parenting books from a dad's perspective - especially around the attachment issues - that hubby can read. It is always better when advice comes from someone else. I think it is great that he told you how he felt.

quote:

I think too that your daughter triggers a lot of stuff from his childhood - which is interfering with his attachment to your daughter.

this was exactly what I was thinking when I read about your H's response. I often had the same response to my daughter when she was small- a high needs child- and my H would get upset with me- but he did not realize that I was quite depressed. It sounds like your H is quite depressed. I think it is very insightful for you to realize that his emotional state is dependent on hers, and what a dangerous dynamic that can present for her emotionally if it continues. Still- I think if you are able to step in and give him some of the love and the comfort and understanding that he needs, then for sure some of the pressure will release off of your daughter to be "perfect." This is the way it worked out for me. When my H became more understanding and compassionate with me (and he has depression issues too) then I was able to start being a better and more loving parent. It is so hard. I know it was hard for him to do that, when I was angry and difficult. But now at least love can flow a little more freely around our house, and the kids do feel it. We still have issues- of course- but it is so much better than it was. So I suggest that you take the opposite reaction that would come naturally when your H is angry at your daughter-and be kind to him. (And if it makes things worse, you can come back and tell me to stuff it! )

You are clearly such a caring parent, and a very loving mom and wife. I think your kids and your H are lucky to have you. I hope that your H will get the help he needs. You need some of the pressure taken off of you. ((((Hic))))

Love,

Beebs

Just wanted to drop by my thread again and thank all of you for the very kind and understanding responses. I will be back later to respond to each one personally and in more detail, but right now I'm sort of blank and overwhelmed. Feeling the support means a lot, though.

quote:

So I suggest that you take the opposite reaction that would come naturally when your H is angry at your daughter-and be kind to him.

Great advice....

I still remember after several months of my own individual therapy, and my T hugging me, I was able to go to my H while he was yelling at our kids and hug him and said, "I can't take it anymore." He calmed right down and said, "What?" Apparently he wasn't aware of the effect of that moment....on me, on the kids, on himself....later when I brought up that moment, he said, "You have no idea how much that meant to me, that you hugged me."

But I haven't been consistent with my love for him. So exhausting, so hard....

It did get to the point, because before I began therapy 18 months ago, I always put my kids and H first, where I let myself go and I fell deep into depression....

Therapy is good. And, in my situation, individual therapy of my own wasn't enough to help both myself and my husband, so I am hoping the marital therapy is going to "save" us....

Glad you're feeling the support, HIC, and so glad you posted, because as you can see, you're not alone. Reading everyone's responses to you is helping me, so thanks again for posting.

Ninn,
Thanks for sharing your experiences and perspectives, coming from a little further down the parenting road with what sounds like a very similar dynamic. I think getting my H into therapy might be helpful if he *wanted* to be there and work on things. However, if he went right now it would just be to appease me and I'm not sure that would do much good, so up till now I've been very casual and non-urgent in recommending therapy to him. Maybe I should reconsider my approach, though. . . Hugs to you as you try to patch your marriage back together. I'm glad that your H is taking some initiative in seeking help and trying to work things out.

Liese,
Yes, sometimes I think my daughter's cuteness is the saving grace for all of us. She is pretty darn adorable even at her grumpiest. I can relate to what you said about you being the one with separation issues and that sometimes getting in the way. I wonder occasionally if I cater to her *too* much. I don't want to stifle her developing a sense of independence. Parenting is certainly a balancing act. . . Anyway, you are probably right that I should be glad H is at least talking about these things, which shows a willingness to acknowledge and perhaps address the problem. Unfortunately I find it hard to be a sympathetic listener, since my instinct is to defend my daughter, but it's important that his feelings be heard and not dismissed as invalid. I'm just not sure I can give him what he needs, so maybe he does really need to get his butt in therapy. And yes, he does really want to be a good dad. That's a huge positive right there. I think sometimes he just tries too hard, or expects too much, and gets caught up in his own frustration.

Alpaca,
Yeah, I told him a few days ago that he and the baby were acting like they were at about the same level of maturity. No, he's not in therapy and sees no need, since he perceives all the problems he experiences as being external to him-- like, if life would just arrange itself to his satisfaction, he would be fine, so what's the problem? At least that's how he seems to see it.

SD,
Thanks for chiming in. Interesting thoughts. I've read a little on PND, but have not considered that dads could have it, or that my H might be depressed. I tend to experience depression as listlessness, morbid thoughts, apathy, low energy, etc. H isn't showing any of those symptoms, he's just being negative, grumpy, and uncharacteristically immature. However, people do experience depression differently so maybe this is what it's like for him. I'll have to pay more attention to this idea, and try to be more empathic and less exasperated with him meanwhile. I think what you say about this triggering attachment issues for him could be spot on, because I've noticed he's become much more impatient and reactive in how he treats his own mother since all this has been going on. Also, he went through an odd kind of anxiety when I was pregnant, saying we wouldn't be able to afford the things we needed for the baby, even though we had planned for this financially and the fear was quite groundless. Hmm. . .

BB,
Thanks so much for replying and sharing your experiences! It is very interesting to hear from someone coming more from the perspective of what my husband might be thinking and feeling. I'm glad things are working out better for your family and that your H has been sensitive to your struggles. It's helpful to me to read about how that has benefited all of you. You and SD seem to agree that my H is probably depressed, and maybe that really is the problem. I think his negative perception of my daughter's behavior is really distorted. She's just a happy, well behaved kid so much of the time that I don't see whatever it is he's seeing. I have depression issues of my own, but because they manifest quite differently, it's hard for me to relate to whatever it is H is feeling. Lately my attitude has been more, "Why don't you just grow up?" although I haven't said that, but I suppose if he is really depressed my insensitivity isn't helping things any. . . I don't know. Thanks so much for the kind things you said about my parenting and care for my family. The encouragement and support means a lot. I really want to get some of this straightened out before the next baby is born, but time keeps ticking by. I'm nearly 19 weeks already.

I just wanted to update this thread with a couple conversations I had with H yesterday. I hope nobody reading is getting tired of hearing from me about all this. I'm really writing more for myself than anything, to get it all out of my head and written out clearly, although at the same time feedback is welcome. You guys can tell me if you think I handled these conversations terribly.

So, here is a conversation I had with H over lunch (he comes home for lunch most days since his office is very close to our house).

Me: Do you think you should see a therapist?
H: What for?
Me: For the frustration you have with the baby.
H: Would a therapist give us a better baby?
Me: If you are the problem and not the baby, a therapist might help you to discover that and fix your flaws.
H: I thought that was what I had a wife for.
Me: Well, a therapist might help you to, you know, "get in touch with your feelings."
H: Isn't that your problem?
Me: My problem?
H: Yeah, isn't the problem you have with me that I'm too in touch with my feelings?
Me: I'm talking about the feelings behind the feelings.
H: Listen. I am completely in touch with all of my feelings.
Me: Okay.

Anyway, later that evening we had the following dialogue. As the stars would have it, the baby was in an angelically sweet mood, and my H (surprise, surprise) was much more chipper than he was the day before.

Me: You seem to be in a much better mood today.
H: Yes! I am.
Me: Why do you think that is?
H: It's because she's not grating on my every nerve.
Me: *glares at H*
H: Why are you staring at me like that?
Me: Because. I don't approve of the way you regulate your feelings. I mean, I don't approve of the way the *baby* regulates your feelings.
H: Hush, you.
Me: Really, if it's like this now, what's it going to be like when she's a teenager? Are you going to go through every hormonal mood swing of puberty with her?
H: Worry about something else.
Me: I am concerned about the emotional health of my family!
H: Then quit nagging me.
Me: *hugs H*
H: *receives hug*
Me: (while hugging) Is my nagging you bad for your emotional health?
H: Yeah, maybe.
Me: Is hugging better for your emotional health?
H: Hugs are always welcome.
Me: Okay, I will start hugging you more often.
H: Okay.

Anyway, so that was that. At least we're talking about stuff. Thanks everyone again for your suggestions.

how is he going to manage if bubba 1 is annoying him now and grating on his nerves - how is he going to improve in the next 20 weeks to cope with Bubba 1 AND bubba 2? What work is he going to do to be able to manage?

The other thought I had is that ONLY HE is responsible for his own feelings - you can't do that for him.

i am still thinking of depression. I think it is is a very common complaint of dads who are depressed or anxious - that they blame the baby for all the problems. I think the research shows that those families with a lot of stress say that their baby cries more than others, is a more difficult baby, is too temperamental etc. Someof the things that your hubby is saying are waving red flags at me.

yes PND - just means that a parent has depression within a certain time frame of a baby coming into a house. Dads get PND, adoptive mums get pnd, adoptive dads get PND - etc - foster parents etc. The person who gives birth isn't the only person who gets it. It is just depression triggered by the perinatal period.

There has been a lot of research and work done on perinatal mental health in my country - and the impact on dads is now better known. PM me if you want some resources on it. Getting hubby to read something off theinternet or to join a dad's forum might be less threatening.

HIC - the bottom line is that I don't know the situation in your house - I am only guessing. i might be completely wrong.

HC, it's true that your actions can have an effect on your DH and help support him emotionally. However, to me that seems like more weight than you can probably support in a sustainable way. It's setting yourself up for exhaustion, IMO. I think you need to keep having conversations about what kind of outside help he can get. But he might have a lot of resistance and conflicted feelings about it that could take a long time to tease out, and you might need to be very sensitive to that if you want to get anywhere. Just my gut feeling I guess. Maybe you can frame it as: dealing with young kids is hard on both of us; I am getting outside support but I can't always give you all the support you need even though I wish I could.

quote:

how is he going to manage if bubba 1 is annoying him now and grating on his nerves - how is he going to improve in the next 20 weeks to cope with Bubba 1 AND bubba 2? What work is he going to do to be able to manage?

quote:

However, to me that seems like more weight than you can probably support in a sustainable way. It's setting yourself up for exhaustion, IMO

Hi SD and Alpaca,
I share the same concerns that you mention here, and obviously I don't have any answers yet. I really don't think H is at a place right now where he's receptive to therapy or the work it involves. I can empathize with that, because I just suffered through my own issues for a long time before I felt "ready" to work with therapist. Meanwhile, I'm sure we'll make it through one way or the other, I just wish things could be easier instead of harder. I'll be hashing some of these things out with T at my next session. Thanks again for the support and feedback.

I think it was very sweet that you offered to give your H more hugs...yeah, I agree that it can be difficult to sustain, but at the same time, it is opening up some dialogue, and I'm impressed- hugely impressed- at how little anger you brought into the discussion. You did a darn good job remaining non-defensive, IMO. This is not easy stuff. One thing is for sure, if there is hidden anger in a convo with our spouse, they will *not* be able to hear what we are saying, but will most definitely get defensive. I think you were very kind, from what I read here, and that's really impressive, because it can be so difficult to be the kind one, when someone we love is doing wrong! and he is doing wrong. You are dead on. Have you considered that, your spouse may actually be causing your baby's distress? Babies are so emotionally tuned in to their surroundings...I think it's very likely that baby gets fussy when she can feel her dad's annoyance at her. I know for a fact, that when my H or I are annoyed at our kids, raise our voices, etc...our kids start acting worse, not better. But he can't help his feelings. I remember being *so* sad that I had no feelings of love for my kids, only feelings of annoyance, anger, difficulty. I had to put on a smile and act nice all the time- but they felt it, in spite of my acting job- no doubt there. Now, with the AD's I'm on, and feeling better than I did- I can feel the love, connection, good feelings for my kids, most of the time now- and their behavior has hugely improved because of it. They were only looking for love, and they couldn't feel it. Notice if baby starts to act fussy or more difficult to know how to handle when your H comes home.. and maybe, if that is the case- you could very, very gently and lovingly- point all of this out to him? It is asking a lot of you. I get that. But I also believe in the power of grace for motherhood, and for our marriages. Alone, it's too hard- but with Love on our side, anything is possible!

(sorry if I sound all pollyanna, it's just something I'm passionate about since it is slowly, working for me. Very slowly.)

Thanks for chiming in again. It's nice to hear that I may have done something right in my talk with H. It doesn't seem to have made all that much of an effect on him, on the other hand, the baby has been inexplicably more cheerful and easy going lately, so H has been much better, too. I'm afraid I just don't appreciate his good moods very much when I have to attribute them to hers, though. On the other hand, it's been good to have a little more peace around here.

I do think H's attitude may be a contributing factor in baby's fussiness, although maybe more so it contributes to him *perceiving* her as abnormally fussy. I've talked to him a little about this (that he might be making her worse) and I think on some level he agrees, cuz it seems to make him feel guilty. Not that guilt is all that helpful when it comes to positive change. . . but at least it shows some awareness.

You don't sound pollyanna-ish at all, or at least, not in a bad way! Hope is good. I enjoy hearing from you.