Spagirl,
I think that's a good idea. Let me talk to Shrinklady and if she's ok about it, I'll set it up. I was thinking an open forum which would provide an indentified place to discuss the issues. But were you thinking a closed forum like the Intimate Discussions or Sensitive Issues?

AG

I think a forum like this would be great, too. I personally think it should be an open forum, as more people could benefit that way.

I know when I first realized that my parents were addicts, it was really, really hard for me to seek out any face-to-face help, and like Jane said, the forums I found were so not helpful.

Open or Closed? I don't know. Hadn't thought about it. But I guess open would be my first choice. I don't know the difference. But there is nothing worse than searching the internet for a place to put your feelings and get the "you have to be a member first" message.

I was leaning towards open myself, but wanted to double-check. I'm waiting to hear back from Shrinklady. If she's ok with it, I'll set it up.

AG

Great.

I was also thinking that if there could be someone (professional) who could jump in with "yes, these behaviors speak to alcoholism" - like a Dr. Drew would, then we wouldn't be supporting ourselves.

Spagirl
Were you thinking of any particular professional? I know that Shrinklady is often too busy to spend time monitoring the forum. This is in essence a peer support group. If you're looking for professional input on the subject, I'm not sure this is the appropriate place to find it.

AG

So how will we know if a behavior is typical of alcoholism or could be a sign of something more?

Spagirl...really glad you suggested the ACOA forum. I am an adult child of an alcoholic, as well as a recovering alcoholic myself (since I was 21 yrs old...kinda ironic ) so I am really looking forward to participating in the forum.

And thank you, AG and Shrinklady, for responding so quickly in setting up the forum. Especially AG, for taking the time, when you are incredibly busy right now. Very generous of you, and much appreciated.

But the request for professional help has me a little concerned. Spagirl, it sounds like you are asking for two different things here. Programs like ACOA offer a certain kind of help, but diagnosing the other's behavior is not part of that, as far as I know. Let me explain.

The point of ACOA (and Al-Anon) is to look at ourselves and what WE can do differently, to live OUR lives as healthy as possible, irrespective of what the alcoholic is doing. Focusing on what the alcoholic is doing and trying to change THEM, is pointedly and specifically discouraged.

When we live with alcoholics in our lives, especially when we are really young, we have to change our behaviors in order to cope with theirs. Because their behaviors are unhealthy, the behaviors we develop in order to cope are unhealthy as well...but it "works", as long as both are willing to stay in that "dance". But at some point, hopefully, one "partner" decides they want to dance a healthier "dance" (sounds like you). Which can be really hard to do even when both decide to change...but even harder, if the other "partner" (your mom) has no interest in changing their "dance". What can happen is they might try to get you to go back to dancing the old way, because it feels more comfortable for them. So you will need a whole lot of support in changing your own steps.

So my point is that figuring out and changing your mom is not the point of these programs. The point is to look at how you are reacting to her, and how you can regain control of your own life and live it more freely, more like how you would like to, irrespective of what your mom is doing. If that is what you are looking for, then ACOA (or Al-Anon) can be really helpful to you, in giving you the support to make your own "dance" healthier. And from reading your posts, it sounds like you'd really like to do that.

But if you are looking to diagnose your mom more specifically, if maybe you are concerned that her problems are more medical than behavioral, then the person to talk to is her doctor. There is no way anyone in ACOA or Al-Anon can really help with that. As I said, their focus is completely different.

I hope this helps. I've followed along with your posts and really feel for all the pain your mother's behavior is causing for you, as my own mother has struggled with various kinds of addictions, and I've had to work really hard to break free from old patterns, set new boundaries, learn what's mine and what's hers. The battle isn't over but it's a lot better than it was. And since I've changed, my mom has learned some new and healthier behaviors, too, which is never guaranteed, but good when it happens that way. I really hope you can use the support of these programs like ACOA to work toward your own freedom, even if your mother never decides to change.

Good luck!

SG

What about if it was a forum for all chemical dependencies and from every angle?

call it alcohol and chemical dependencies or just addictions

It the write up about the group it is people dealing with it from all angles, where it is a child, a partner, a person with an addiction. It for topics that arise out of substance use to cope by someone. Even if it is that someone needs to talk about a one time bender to escape an issue.

CNC

The suggestion is for some sort of adviser: a moderator. What I have found in these forums is supportive, with the Big Hugs and the "Everything will be okay" type of support, but what if we need a little more?

It's nice to have the hugs and all - and that should obviously continue. And yes, unfortunately, it becomes all about us changing ourselves (which is REALLY tiring, I might add). And, those who know a little about me and why I write here will know that my "problems" come from my Mom and HER cyclical craziness which I have observed intensifies with alcohol use.

I think gathering all of us in one forum will show how we deal with similar issues. But what if we could have someone who has come out of this and could interject what worked for them (or multiple people).

Spagirl- I also suggest you find a therapist if you are looking for committed professional support. Shrinklady does not provide us with free online therapy- nor should she be expected to. This is, as DF said- a peer support group, that Shrinklady already very generously (and I'm sure, at expense) provides for us- and the people here offer whatever they want to or feel able to without any obligations whatsoever. A moderator is just someone who makes sure that people follow the basic rules of respect on a forum, and is not an advisor or therapist for individual issues. I also found your comment about "the big hugs and everything" to be really disrespectful and ungrateful for the support I have seen you receive in this place.

BB

SG,

I agree with BB and DF here. I think what you are looking for is something that you are only going to find with professional support and that is not something you are going to find for free on a peer support forum.

I've followed your posts and I understand how crazymaking your mother's behavior is. It sounds like you are exhausted having to deal with her behavior all of the time and even a professional isn't going to be able to take that away. I'm wondering if professional support might help you to distance from the relationship and set some clearer boundaries to protect yourself so you aren't so exhausted all of the time. There are many of us who have had to end relationships (even with parents) in order to protect ourselves both physically and mentally. It might be worth exploring with a professional. I'm sure that you could also get great peer support here from those dealing with similar issues, but I'm not sure that is what you are seeking at this time.

This post has been removed by me as not in keeping with the spirit of the forum. My apologies.

AG

I think people were just trying to point out to Spagirl that her continuing demands and comments were pretty inappropriate to this forum, and her dismissive comments hurtful. It is hard not to bring any emotion into that. When people make comments that are hurtful and that dismiss others, while making demands for special treatment- we have a right to point out that error to them and to say what we feel about their behavior without feeling guilty about that. It doesn't make SG a bad person to have had it pointed out to her rather forcefully, in this case, that she may need to seek therapy if that is what she is looking for from this place.
Spagirl you are welcome here and always have been, but there are parameters and boundaries to this place and what it is able to offer- just as there are in life, and that is a learning curve we are all on, to one extent or another. That is all that AG or any of us was trying to point out. this is a good place to hang out and practice these types of interactions, and what boundaries look like- and that may well be a valuable way for you to use this place. We all have problems that we are trying to get past.

oops I crossposted with you Jane.

hehe - we are cross posting our cross posts!

you got me again!

quote:

I wanted to share a little of my experience and process... and would love to know more about what is going on for you and where you are at and what you are seeking.

thanks Jane- beautiful. That's what it's all about..SG, I feel the same way.

quote:

In closing I would like to say that the opinions expressed here were strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you liked and leave the rest.

A few special words to those of you who haven't been with us long: Whatever your problems there are those among us who have had them, too. If you try to keep an open mind you will find help. You will come to realize that there is no situation too difficult to be bettered and no unhappiness too great to be lessened.

We aren't perfect. The welcome we give you may not show the warmth we have in our hearts for you. After a while, you'll discover that though you may not like all of us you'll love us in a very special way, the same way we already love you.

Talk to each other, reason things out with someone else but let there be no gossip or criticism of one another. Instead, let the understanding love and peace of the program grow in you one day at a time. (from the suggested al-anon closing)

Most of the suggested alanon closing - my favorite reading that I never tire of hearing when at meetings. I think it is fitting in many areas of life - including this forum. No professionals necessary for support and growth, just a group of people, coming together as equals, to help each other through rough times, by sharing their experiences.

I'm jumping into this conversation late, but I too, agree that the work to put the new board together was swift and great (thanks AG!) and that as on the other boards, we seem to do a great job supporting each other, and I see the new board to be no different.

quote:

Talk to each other, reason things out with someone else but let there be no gossip or criticism of one another.

Thanks R2G, I know it was completely NOT your intention but this part of the quote kind of hit me right between the eyes. This is not just wise for Al-alon, it sounds like pretty good advice for a forum also.

Spagirl,
No matter how angry I am I could have chosen to be more patient. Although I do believe that much of what I said was true, it could have been said less harshly. I will remove my post. I am grateful that there are other members here who spoke more gently than I did. I hope that you are able to hear what they are saying.

AG

quote:

We aren't perfect. The welcome we give you may not show the warmth we have in our hearts for you. After a while, you'll discover that though you may not like all of us you'll love us in a very special way, the same way we already love you.

And this is my favorite line from the reading. It is a great reminder of the fact that we are all human. And I seem to get myself in the most trouble when I put people above me, on that pedestal, and then I fall apart when I knock them down.

((((AG))))

Thanks (((R2G))), I really appreciate your gentleness and acceptance.

Spagirl, you are understandable, very quiet- but I just wanted to follow AG's lead and offer an apology if I came on too strong or too judgemental of you before. It is all too easy to get my back up, and I may have been overreacting. While I stand by my statements about boundaries- I hope you are doing ok, and hope to see you posting soon.

BB

quote:

Flowers grow out of dirt not out of rainbows.

Love this DF!!

Sorry for my case of P.A.D. and then deleting my posts. I was having anxiety over them, so it was easiest to delete.

Yaku,
I'm fine with you deleting your posts to feel more comfortable but just so you know, for my part, nothing you said upset or bothered me. I thought it was clear and caring for all concerned.

AG

Yaku- your post was fine. I'm sorry if you are feeling scared. It's ok to delete, but you need to hear that you were supportive and kind to all concerned, and totally impartial.

I was confused about your post too, UV..I just don't get it, at this time. Maybe I need to re-read it.

Yes, but in this universe that revolves around me, anyone seeming at all upset after I have posted is obviously all my fault! Don't you all know this by now?

Unrelated, but H and I have taken a homeless person to a restaurant and sat and enjoyed a meal with him or her before...at least half-a-dozen times (not including bringing food or buying food for people). I'm not trying to be hooray for us, we're so good, it's just something we've felt called to do, because there are a lot of homeless in our local communities (San Francisco, for example). I think this community is actually like that to a certain extent, humanizing our pain through interaction.

quote:

What I have found in these forums is supportive, with the Big Hugs and the "Everything will be okay" type of support, but what if we need a little more?

And yes, unfortunately, it becomes all about us changing ourselves (which is REALLY tiring, I might add).

I just wanted to note here that I found the above statements dismissive and critical of a place where I have found so much support, comfort and solace while going through some extremely stressful and devastating experiences. To make light of hugs and the companionship here and to insinuate it is not good enough because we are not "professionals" really stung and felt like an insult to me and to the other members here. My only experience with direct communication FROM SpaGirl was a harsh, critical comment to me when I posted about taking a break from the board when my T abandoned me and after that horrible attack by that Troll, Kerry. Instead of offering support she informed me I needed "tough love". I will refrain from offering the same advice to her.

And yes, therapy and this Board IS all about effecting positive change in ourselves to enable us to live more fulfilling and satisfying lives and to learn how to keep ourselves safe, how to relate to those who are in our lives and bring us hurt and harm. This is not "tiring" to me. It is beneficial.

I read AG's original post and also Yaku's post that she deleted. There was nothing there that I felt was untrue or even out of line. I think AG went out of her way to set up the forum as SG requested. This was only met with complaints and more requests for things that are not availabe on this Board. I also think it was not unreasonable for the members here to feel belittled in their offerings of hugs and prayers and good thoughts to their fellow posters. Sometimes it's all they can offer and sometimes it makes a huge difference to the poster to receive such kind words.

I think it's very kind of everyone to be accepting and understanding of what SpaGirl has posted and I think it shows the true spirit of compassion and caring on this Board.

TN

Ok, sorry UV- I didn't mean to poke my nose back into the conversation that is directed at Spagirl- and derive things from it that you didn't mean. I guess it's just hard for me to keep impartial and unemotional when there has been a conflict here, and things were pointed out to the person in question.
It's good of you to be kind to people who are hurting. We are all very much hurting people on this site, I suppose, and I think that's why we all tend to derive our own feelings from what we read here, and especially when there is a conflict happening. The point I'm trying to make is that we are not therapists, we are struggling people who are looking for support and giving support to one another in our own fallible and often unprofessional ways..so, it's a good place and a good group- and we all make mistakes in our interaction with eachother at times, it's just the way it is. But- you don't need that pointed out from me. I'll get off my soapbox now.

I think this is a great time for us to practice grounding ourselves and accepting our own experiences. Spagirl expressed a need for something beyond the reach of this forum. She may even feel frustration that all her needs are not met here. Neither of those things can invalidate or belittle anyone's experience of the forum or what it does well - unless one chooses to take it on that way. If you find valuable things here, accept that, know that, take reassurance from that. It hasn't changed or been damaged and it's not going away. It is no threat for someone to say they have a different need. And if the forum can't accommodate that different need, that is also not a flaw of the forum. Just something that can be, and has been, communicated.

JESUS! I've NEVER had FOUR pages of comments before!!!

I don't know where to begin. I guess I'll start from the beginning. The only reason I posted my first suggestion was to see if we could get an ACOA forum just for us. I truly don't know where all the rest of this stuff is coming from.

I will stick to my first post which is that a separate forum for adults suffering from the affects of their imbibing parents (and possibly their mates) sounds like a good idea. Whether or not we get a moderator is irrelevant.

I hope we can get this going.

Thanks.

Adult Children of Alcoholics Forum

Aw. I'm really sorry I haven't responded to you more. I'll try to be better about that but I often don't relate since my experience is so different.

AG started the forum honey, I guess you just didn't see it. It's right down there at the bottom of the opening page. People have already been posting there, and are waiting for you to join in!

BB

You hear what you want to hear. I'm not involved.

And PS - Blackbird, it WAS my suggestion in the first place. AG took that suggestion and put it here. I'm not involved in the backstage area.

I can only hope it can stay on topic and people won't see what isn't there like what just happened here.

There have been misunderstandings and over reactions all the way around. I have been triggered and confused about this thread myself.
Yes, the new forum was your idea, and I honestly wasn't trying to say that it wasn't, SG- I was trying to point out that AG has met your request, already- and that the forum (that was your idea, yes) is already up and running- per your request. In fact people have been wondering where you are, and why you haven't been posting on the forum that was your idea. That is all.

AG simply put a link to the new ACOA forum (that now exists on the opening page of myShrink) here in this thread, to show you where to find it- since you were indicating that you were not aware that it was already up and running.
Do you understand?

Just for the record: Spagirl, everyone knows it was your idea, it's how this thread was started. I also placed a welcome message in the ACOA forum that stated that it was created because you suggested it.

BB was correct, I placed the link to the forum in this thread, because your statement

quote:

I hope we can get this going.

led me to believe you were not aware that the forum was already up and running. I was actually, believe or not, trying to be helpful.

That was how I heard what BB said, that she was also pointing out to you that the forum existed. She stated it that way because I AM involved in the back end and actually did the work to set up the forum. You're welcome, by the way.

And this is the last time I waste any more of my time on this BS. The ACOA forum exists which is a good thing, people are already making good use of it. Post, or don't post, I find it hard to care at this point.

AG