((((CAT)))))

Thanks for being honest. Unfortunately for me, I'm so naive. I tend to believe people when they say there's nothing going on behind the scenes but that doesn't always square with what I feel. Need to trust that gut more.

Maybe you are right and I'm expecting too much out of this place.

This is from Jones on May 27th:

quote:

Perhaps you can imagine what it would be like to know that someone from your community had written something horrible about you 'out there', but that you didn't know who had done it. I consider that it would make every interaction feel unsafe.

Yes, yes. I can imagine that as I have been told that people have talked about me behind the scenes, either currently or in the past. Why do we have sympathy when it happens to one person but not for me? Or another?

Liese, have you ever talked about someone else here in private? Or an issue, or something someone did or said out on OF in private? I certainly have. So, when I think of having sympathy towards one person or another... Isn't it something that no one is innocent of in some aspect of their life? I guess I'm not sure if you mean just random PMs as "behind the scenes" but that is what I'm assuming. It takes place everywhere - I mean we talk about other people in our lives ON this board (siblings, parents, kids, Ts) so I don't see why in this community in general it wouldn't happen.

So I can't see anyone at fault necessarily here... It is when talk about PMs hits the forum that it gets confusing - like if you talked about someone to your friend in middle school and they tell someone else and it gets back to the person, etc - it sucks but anyone who would deny such a thing has happened to them ever in their personal life... I wouldn't believe them.

So I'm wondering if the issue is more things on the public forum or what but of anyone is involved in PMs about this topic, or things people are saying, or particular poster's ideas, etc (I don't know if anyone is) but... I mean that's the issue in itself right there. Private stuff happening where public stuff is happening, too.

I dunno, I'm being super wordy today... I just think conflict is okay an human nature is inescapable. I know people (even those i enjoy and relate to just fine) who have said things about me in PMs, sometimes I will even know or be shown what it was ... So while I may not agree with (and i may argue, clarify, or i may not...) whatever is said about me or it may hurt - I actually feel its okay and happens. People have loving and wonderful intentions here even if they squawk in private. It's like if you complain about your husband or friend to another person - you still love them they are just bein a PITA and you need to talk about it.

Maybe I am a huge jerk but I mean its just the angle I see it from FWIW.

Why is it that I sense "Irish" is sitting back watching how everything is panning out in here?

Members are left to figure out WTH has happened, members are against members and taking sides, having to pick up the pieces and make sense of it all.

I've seen this time and time again out here in the "real world"in my childhood, and job. One could be forgiven for not recognizing the traits of a sociopath. After all, many in the shrink dept have trouble making that diagnosis.

This is a good example of how disruptive they can be. They leave one wholly mess for others to clean up, and often it is too late to rectify and undo the damage that has already been done.

If Irish has already been banned by SL, why wait for another chat with her before taking the same action?

Well done Irish! It remains to be seen if your efforts will cause more members to leave.

(((CAT))))

quote:

Maybe I am a huge jerk but I mean its just the angle I see it from FWIW.

You are not a huge jerk and I appreciate your insight. I tend to be naive. Conflict is difficult for me to witness though I sure as heck jump right in there. Thanks for being understanding.

(((MUFF)))

It's all too easy to blame Irish for this. I've continued this conversation of my own free will.

I think- and I could be wrong, but Iam wondering if Liese is talking more about the vindictive PMs that hit over mundane things and it happens repeatedly. I know what you mean cat about talking and private and how it's different. I think we all saw what happened when I said things in private and they were plastered everywhere. What I wonder about is the member who behaves nasty to another member, gets called in it, then responds in the OF with sorrys and so forth but sends PMs that are mean spirited, cussing and blatant miss truths then deletes the PM so there is no evidence but also keeps copies for themselves to PM to you later. What then? That's way different from having a lapse in judgement and apologizing and leaving it there yet that's what many of the members experience from another member here who continually gets a pass because "that's her", or everyone begs her not to go or what have you. I have been on the reciving end of some of those messages both as a mod and as a forum member and it sucks. It makes it so you don't dare post on the OF or disagree with a group not because you are scared if the conflict but you don't want to deal with the nasty PMs. So why is this behavior tolerated for one person and not another? I think when several people start noticing the same patterns happening we can't say, oh this is an Authority issue, or this is just that person, or she apologized lets move on. I see throughout Irishs posts she has apologized, why is she not granted the grace? I think that's some of the issue. There is a clear dual standard on the board and it comes down unfortunately to who you are aligned with but I suppose this also happens in life. I know the ignore button has worked for me. I love your phrase about the poop though. :-)

Personally, I think Irish is being used as a scapegoat. People are frustrated and angry and they should be. The facts are this, Irish is banned, move on. However; it does merit conversation for other things and I think that's what's happening here. You have one member banned for doing nothing worse than some other members yet those remain. That creates frustration. It can easily be fixed by placing a warn system in place so there is nothing to argue about. Accumulate a certain amount of points for breaking board rules and your banned. Done. But that's only the opinion of one.

I understand what you're saying Ucello, I guess I am talking on a different vein thinking more about PMs in general. Giving my zen there... About what you're saying I don't know what to say other than... it is community, group and individual dynamics. Sort of a nothing is fair thing, which sucks and hurts feelings. I've been on that end of things before (in other places - there are some foods my flavor just doesn't work with), and other groups I'm in that happens where for whatever reason a large group of people don't like someone or something or whatever. I'm not sure if it's preventable and neither is fall out. So, I get what you're saying on a more specific level and the best I can say is I don't know why on a community/group level but I know on a personal level for me I have a lot more patience, respect, empathy, understanding, etc for some people than I do others. I don't think that's unusual. That doesn't make abusive behavior acceptable, but I just mean from my own very honest standpoint that is why I PERSONALLY would be more quick to forgive whatever on a global scale (as in, even in my personal life - even when I try to be objective which I must do on many occasions) not in this case in general. Just to give... my own thoughts there I guess - I think that is why things like this happen.

((Catalyst))

quote:

People want to know things, figure things out, so... they talk about it. They find out or ask for information from whomever, maybe feel entitled about it, maybe don't like the answer, maybe feel triggered, maybe get what they need, maybe need to talk about it w/ a friend, maybe need to complain. They need to be human. They also share information, even "private" information, secrets, stuff they find out, etc. So, how it works is, people talk to try to figure things out and in the end everyone experiences their own reality, perceptions, ideas from there... and shares them.

Personally, I "gossip" (talk about others, or the things going on around me - the good, bad, ugly and normal) all the time, sometimes I wonder about things so I'll ask people - and not the right people all the time sometimes I'll ask someone's opinions based on my thoughts, sometimes I'll talk to a friend I know will agree, or give me something objective. I do this every day in life. Just like everyone else I know trying to move along in the world, meet their needs, and relate. With this board in particular... because I think we have a focus and such a desire to understand things (that's what I think being in therapy suggests) that we sometimes try to work it out on a massive scale and that's really hard. Look at wars in the east... it's hard. It's people, humans, society, life.

Wanted to say I have found your posts on this thread very insightful and I read the above paragraphs a few times over because they really resonated. It is human to be curious and it is human to care about this stuff. I used to be more conflict avoidant and there was a time I would have avoided a thread like this like the plague, but. . . I think it's better to have opinions and feelings and be able to express them. I hope I haven't been alienating anyone by doing so. That is far from my intention.

((R2g))

Thanks so much for explaining about locking the thread. It makes sense that you were just trying to maintain the peace and end a conversation that was unfortunately going nowhere. At the time, I interpreted the locking (especially because I had no clue who did it) as a sort of declaring of the topics initially raised by Irish as taboo, so it is nice to have this clarity.

(((Ucello)))

quote:

I see throughout Irishs posts she has apologized, why is she not granted the grace? I think that's some of the issue. There is a clear dual standard on the board. . .

Personally, I think Irish is being used as a scapegoat.

This is my perception as well and so far I have seen nothing that changes it.

I don't mean to be a pain and I have nothing against anyone here. The dynamics that feed these things are complex and I'd never pretend to understand them all. I may bow out of this conversation at this point. If I've offended anyone, please let me know because I would like to not be in a state of estrangement or misunderstanding with any of you if I can help it.

Hugs to all,


heldincompassion

You are a very forgiving person, I know you and I have had our train wreck via Janetrack and I appreciate that forgiveness. I get what you are saying. I suppose I just wonder about the repetition regarding others. Anyhow, well I think we are beating a dead dog. Give it 10 days it will all go back to how it was a week ago and then it will all explode again in a few months. Ahh, dynamics. The gift that keeps in giving. Haha. Cya guys!

Coming to the defense of who UCELLO is...she did say in a previous post her identity...I personally have missed her

It's unfortunate this has happened. I have personally seen so much harshness here regarding the post Irish Girl initiated...it was quite unnerving. I was hoping someone would have gently asked a certain member to tone it down. You can get a point across without gutting someone.

Whatever mistakes have been made, NO ONE deserves to be cut down harshly with words.

This is supposed to be a sight for comfort, acceptance and understanding. I think if any member can't offer that in some capacity, then why be a member?

Wish I was a dead dog, might not hurt so much. I also wish I had a 1/10 of the power that seems to be attributed to me.

This whole thing makes me sad. I see a lot of hurting people here and I only wish for the pain to lessen. I am not involved in this event as I don't even really know what happened. I took a long break from this forum and I may need to take another. But that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate all of you and your contributions. I think there are a lot of good people here with a whole lot of pain not only in the forum but in life.

((((AG)))))

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
Wish I was a dead dog, might not hurt so much. I also wish I had a 1/10 of the power that seems to be attributed to me.

I think that was typo. Sorry, Iam on my phone. I wasn't talking about you. I figured we'd already worked stuff out been over our issues. Ill edit right now. Totally not intentional although I get with the topic that it seems so. Sorry. :-(

(((((AG))))) B R E A T H E deeply!!!!

Thanks Ucello, totally understand the phone thing, sorry I misunderstood.

No it's cool. When I saw what u wrote I was like wait... Then I read my blunder and was like damnit! Totally not out to get you. Beef isn't with you.

Just my two cents here, but maybe the PM feature should be discontinued.

I was thinking the same thing Blu

I actually agree with you blu. At least for certain users. Or at least until peeps can play nice. I just suspended a chat room on my other board. It does happen when a community can't keep it together. But then there are so many here that really get a lot of help from PMs. Tricky.

(((TAS)))

quote:

I was hoping someone would have gently asked a certain member to tone it down. You can get a point across without gutting someone.

Are you talking about me? It's those generalities. They are a killer. Please find a way to communicate with me.

Not you at all Liese. What I am trying to say is just because Irish Girl didn't handle something in the best possible way doesn't give someone else the right to harshly diminish her with words. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Is it just me or did a post just get deleted? That's exactly what Iam talking about! Lash out, threaten a member and delete and nothing has happened.

What post?

Ah, gotcha TAS. Ucello, what post? I didn't see anything.

A post just flew up from poppet that said something like:

Nothing to loose now. Does anyone else want copies of threads that (members name) is on?

I know it was her because I have to in hide her ignored posts. This is exactly the kind of stuff I have been talking about! En situo! Blatantly threatening another member and then deleting so it can't be reported! This is so maddening!

quote:

What post?

Something inappropriate that was posted, then removed. Sometimes it happens when we make rash decisions then take them back immediately or, for whatever reason remove them (I don't know, but I've done it before). It is hard to deal with that stuff and it does happen a lot with a lot of users... A LOT. Especially during this kind of stuff. I'm not really sure what recourse there is aside from PM, reporting to Shrinklady or it can be pulled out public but the content really wasn't appropriate to share. So, it is what Ucello is talking about. In the past I've had to go via PM to sort it or ignore or whatever... if see a 'flasher' (quick deleted post) that upsets or is about me.

I like who you are, too pops

quote:

Originally posted by Ucello:


I may be Irish girl, I may not be? Really? It's pretty clear if you click on my name you'd see a post announcing who I was so I didn't feel the need to announce it again. That was why I left it up to you. I never hid anything and Iam no one other than the person I said I was. So this whole notion of I may or may not be Irish is ridonkulous! I feel like you are trying to cast doubt on me and that's no bueno. I don't know you, never spoken to you that I know of. I made a statement that I didn't like cross referencing IPs across boards. That was it. I actually don't care why it was done although I appreciate your explanation. I just don't like knowing that at any point a moderator will give my IP to a different board. That's my personal thing. I don't need or want to know the ins or outs or whys or how comes. But Im not Irish, stop alluding that Iam. Anyone that has been here long enough and knows me knows that Iam not her.

Ucello, I am sorry I did not click through to see your earlier post. It actually didn't occur to me, probably partly because it was three in the morning where I am, and partly because I saw you had three posts to your name, which seems to be normal for new posters when I see what appears to be their first post. My intention was actually not to cast doubt on you - it was to start with a clear understanding of who I was talking to because I genuinely didn't know. That may be 'ridonkulous' but please bear in mind that the conflict I was discussing relates to someone appearing under multiple names.

It's fine that you don't care why I did what I did, great, but you and Irish both brought it up and described it using the same words (also why I thought you may have been her) so it was important to me to explain my perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:

quote:

Originally posted by Ucello:


I may be Irish girl, I may not be? Really? It's pretty clear if you click on my name you'd see a post announcing who I was so I didn't feel the need to announce it again. That was why I left it up to you. I never hid anything and Iam no one other than the person I said I was. So this whole notion of I may or may not be Irish is ridonkulous! I feel like you are trying to cast doubt on me and that's no bueno. I don't know you, never spoken to you that I know of. I made a statement that I didn't like cross referencing IPs across boards. That was it. I actually don't care why it was done although I appreciate your explanation. I just don't like knowing that at any point a moderator will give my IP to a different board. That's my personal thing. I don't need or want to know the ins or outs or whys or how comes. But Im not Irish, stop alluding that Iam. Anyone that has been here long enough and knows me knows that Iam not her.

Ucello, I am sorry I did not click through to see your earlier post. It actually didn't occur to me, probably partly because it was three in the morning where I am, and partly because I saw you had three posts to your name, which seems to be normal for new posters when I see what appears to be their first post. My intention was actually not to cast doubt on you - it was to start with a clear understanding of who I was talking to because I genuinely didn't know. That may be 'ridonkulous' but please bear in mind that the conflict I was discussing relates to someone appearing under multiple names.

It's fine that you don't care why I did what I did, great, but you and Irish both brought it up and described it using the same words (also why I thought you may have been her) so it was important to me to explain my perspective.

No worries. Not at all upset or bothered. I really did just want an answer. Thanks! I get why you were asking. Totally get it.

(((POPPETT)))

I'm okay with what I wrote but it was a multi-PM and there are other people involved that could get hurt. I don't know what you wrote anymore because it's all been deleted. You do what you think is best.

Can everyone leave their computers and phones alone for a while and go outside for a few hours or do something else.

quote:

Can everyone leave their computers and phones alone for a while and go outside for a few hours or do something else.

I have to agree with Somedays - this has descended into a disgraceful/hurtful situation - this was not why I started the thread (something I rarely do and may not again)!!!!

Clearly though, this just fuels my and others concerns that there appears to be two forums - a private one where all kinds of unpleasant stuff has and is happening and the open forum where there's leakage from the other!!!

Let's PLEASE try to keep our language civil and seriously if that's not possible, just stop engaging and enraging!!!!

My best to you all. Morgs

Some conflict resolution ideas for those who would like them:

1) As Some Days wonderfully suggests, step away for a while. Once our fight/flight system is activated, we don't think so straight or perceive so clearly. New conflicts bleed into old conflicts, new people seem like old enemies. Research says it usually takes 20 minutes of calm disengagement for our brains to start functioning properly again.

2) When you do re-engage, try to keep an eye on how much you don't know. Remember when we are dealing with other people (and even ourselves) what we don't know is A LOT. Actions and behaviours that may appear clear cut may not be. In the realm of another person's intentions, often we know hardly anything. Be ready to listen, find out, change your ideas.

3) Stay close to the facts. Check them out. Talk about specific incidents, rather than general conclusions. Say what you saw, heard. Ask questions. Listen.

4) This is the hardest: assume the other person is doing their best, and has good intentions. 99% of the time that's true, but we often lack the skills to make our good intentions visible.

5) Look for ways to allow kindness, compassion, forgiveness, both inwards and outwards. Move a little closer to that wherever you can.

6) Remember our pain comes from many sources. Chances are it didn't all originate in this conflict. We can't heal it all in this conflict. We can give ourselves love and gentleness for the pain we carry with us all the time, and how it hurts so badly when it gets bumped or knocked.

thank-you to the peacemakers.

now for some prilosec.

RT

You are right Morgs. I meant you no disrespect. I apologize. Please keep your posts up!

None taken Ucello - just want everyone to settle down!

Take care (((All)))

Morgs, thank you so much for speaking here and elsewhere for peace. (hugs)

quote:

Originally posted by Liese:

This is from Jones on May 27th:

quote:

Perhaps you can imagine what it would be like to know that someone from your community had written something horrible about you 'out there', but that you didn't know who had done it. I consider that it would make every interaction feel unsafe.

Yes, yes. I can imagine that as I have been told that people have talked about me behind the scenes, either currently or in the past. Why do we have sympathy when it happens to one person but not for me? Or another?

Hi Liese,

I missed this earlier. I'm not sure if you wanted an answer directly from me, but in case you did - for me it's hard to have any take on situations that I don't know about, or only know a very little about, or didn't see play out directly. So that may be a big part of the difference you are feeling. I need some kind of context before my reactions form, I guess.

Jones

(((L2f))) and (((Morgs))) just wanted to say thank you, failed to do that last night.

I don't want to bother either of the mods right now as they have both indicated that their plates are full, but could we please agree to voluntarily close this thread? lot of people are angry and hurt for what they believe are clearly justifiable reasons (I very much include myself) but not everyone is seeing all of these circumstances in the same light (again, I am certain that people disagree with me, which is fine) but at this point I think everyone has had a chance to speak and enough anger has been expressed and hurtful things said. (I am not unaware that I will be seen as the source of some of that.) But I think Somedays and Jones made a good point, that stepping away would allow everyone to calm down. I know that my reactivity goes way up when this stuff is going on, and a sense of urgency sets in that something must be done and then I usually go do something stupid I regret doing. (Cat, love the term 'flash' post as I have done that more times than I am proud of ). So if everyone is willing can we just declare say a 24 hour moratorium and if we feel the need to say more, we can start tomorrow morning? Thanks.

PS obviously if anyone disagrees, just post since the thread isn't really closed. My intention is honestly to help not to make things worse.

w.o.w.
that's NOT to anybody in particular, but the dynamics here ..... ????????
for those TRULY involved here (you know who you are ... i don't! alot of people don't (but are getting pretty good ideas about it!), GET A ROOM and work it out or kill each other ... i don't care! just spare the rest of us who come here for support and guidance and cyber hugs your drama-starved lives! puleeeeze!

now, can we just stop it, leave those people to their own devices, and carry on with what i've come to know this place as, which is a thoughtful, caring, supportive medium????? THANK YOU!!!!!

seriously, i deplore you: unless you have direct involvement in this, then leave these folks alone and let them figure their own BS out.

i'm going to bed.