regular sessions

blackbirdMember

SO-...last week I was saying that I am giving it a couple more weeks until Cowboy starts to say that I should be thinking about tapering off on sessions. But- in my last session- after totally breaking down during session over Guru T- (and then continuing with life as usual with no feelings about it afterwards, so weird,) Cowboy actually did the exact opposite of what I had predicted. He:

1. *remembered* that come fall, it will be hard for me to get there during the day.
2. *suggested* that, if I want to continue, I book 5 sessions ahead with him in order to be able to come on the evening he works.
3. proceeded to book 5 appointments out for me.

!!!!!!

He also remembered to ask me about the thing we left off on last week. But he said is there anything else that you need to discuss, so I wnt with that, because as it turns out my son had more testing recently, and there are more problems that I did not anticipate.

When I had tried to discuss my son's myopathy and other health issues with guru T he let me email him a picture of my son, and said kind things about him, and then, later- he changed and said "We can't talk about this- you need to discuss it with your husband, not me." Then, later he changed back and would ask how my boy is doing. It was so confusing. So, I was nervous to broach the subject with Cowboy, but he was great. He let me talk about the new problem that has come up, and all my buried anxiety about the decision making I have to do regarding further testing. I expressed my frustration at my husband leaving the ball in my court so often. All the while I am having basically no feelings at all, except a bit of anxiety about what Cowboy must be thinking of me. I think I am a pretty heartless mother. And then- we talked about trust. He asked me if there is *anyone* in my life that I trust. I said no, I guess not- not really, when I think about it. I told him that I trust him a bit, since he is not involved in my life. He said "Well, I'm on the fringes, though." What I really meant is that I trust him because he is clearly so completely unaffected by me, and that does help me in some odd way- even though it is exactly what caused such huge problems between GuruT and me.

So- why is that lack of emotional involvement that I railed against so much before with Guru- actually so helpful, now?? I would appreciate any input on that. I'm wondering if it is possible that Guru was actually more emotionally involved then he pretended to be. I guess I'll never know the answer to that question. I can't trust my own perceptions, that is for sure.

But anyway- I didn't say that. Then he said "You know that if I ever say something that threatens your trust, you can tell me about it?" I said.."thanks- but I wouldn't because that is exactly what my other T said, too- and when I did tell him, that did not work out well." And then- I completely broke down and started crying uncontrollably. I have no idea what or why but it was just- unbearable pain that came and then went, after I left the building. Cowboy said- "it's almost time to wrap up- is there anything I can help you with, anything you need from me?" I said no, I'm ok- so I pulled myself together and wrote the check...I said I'm sorry- and Cowboy said "what are you sorry for?" I kind of laughed and said "oh, I guess saying I'm sorry is a knee-jerk reaction for me." He said "I'm glad that you recognize that. If you figure out what you are sorry for, then you can email it to me." This was said very aside, and I wouldn't take him up on it. Not after my emailing experiences with Guru.

then I went in the bathroom and cried for about another ten minutes. I just couldn't seem to stop. My H picked me up from therapy that day, since he had errands to run downtown- and I remember he kept saying..."what's wrong? you seem so pensive" I was glad that I didn't have to drive home.I think I was pretty spacy. But I did manage to stop crying before I left the building. I'm very confused by this crying thing. Why do I constantly break down in therapy sessions? It was exactly what Guru would always try to get me to do. He had this thing about it. Now I'm in sessions with a T who doesn't care one way or the other whether I cry or not- and I do it constantly. It's so embarrassing. Or- maybe I just don't care what he thinks of me since I'm not attached to him. idk.

So- I am amazed that Cowboy seems to be willing to book sessions out so far in advance for me. He said: "To make sure they are there for you- and if you need to cancel or shift anything, just let me know within 24 hours." GuruT assured me that, if he were ever to help me make a decision like that, I would become more and more dependent on him. But the funny thing is- I don't feel at all dependent on Cowboy, even though he has no big issue with helping me to schedule sessions and such- I like that he is there, and I'm glad I have that resource- but I don't feel dependent on him, and I don't obsess about it, or about him. And oddly- I was completely dependent of Guru- even though he told me he was doing all the right things to avoid that. I am so confused.

It's funny that I really have none of the transference that I usually experience in relationships like this. I find it's like- no transference= no feelings. My emotions seem to reside wherever I left off with GuruT.

Still not sure what to do, if I should contact him again. I had a dream last night, usually I do not remember them. But I dreamed that I actually called GuruT up on the telephone- something I would never do in a million years.

So I begin evening sessions this week...I wonder how that will be.

BB

9/5/118:31 AM

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lieseMember

(((BB)))

I am sorry about the health problems your son has. Your thread was so timely for me because my T and I have been talking a lot about dependence. I've been hashing things out in my head as well.

From my very limited research, it appears that dependence is something that has not been well-researched. It seems as though it was just thought of as being pathological and something to keep an eye on or watch out for.

I found some articles written by Kathy Steele about dependency re: to ctpsd. She depathologizes dependency really well in my opinion. The article written in 2001 had an really amazing graph that broke down the relationship between the T and the client into three categories depending upon whether or not the client had secure and insecure dependency. There was secure dependency and then insecure dependency in which the therapist is enmeshed and insecure dependency in which the therapist is detached. I gave him the article but there was definitely some stuff in there regarding whether or not the clients attachment style was avoidant or preoccupied. (I think).

Kathy Steele's argument is that secure dependency is the one that the therapist should aim for. It was really interesting because it highlighted what has been going on for my T and me. We've been having a lot of discussions around it.

He did tell me that he did learn in school that dependency was pathological and something to watch out for. I felt his avoidance and deflection as further proof that I was repulsive and unlovable (exactly what the article predicted I would feel.) He has been very open to reading the articles and incorporating things into my therapy. I feel a huge difference in how secure I feel with him - to the point where I am not obsessing as much (well, maybe as much but in a seemingly healthier way.) .. But I also really feel like I am able to let go a little more and be more present with my kids when I am with them instead of being preoccupied all the time.

I keep telling him all the positive things that have been going on since he's let me move closer. I think we're both happier and feel that our relationship is getting better and stronger.

The article also had a graph re: the T and their attachment style and how they might feel about dependence. They have to feel comfortable with it as well. And, so it really is a two-step.

From the sound of what you wrote, GuruT clearly had some negative feelings re: your dependency and that could have in fact contributed highly to the dynamic between the two of you.

The article explained that unless the client is allowed to form a secure dependency, that alone will actually PROLONG the dependency and nothing therapeutic will happen.

And, so it sounds like, BB, that GURU T didn't have his own feelings sorted out re: dependency issues and so vascillated between being caring by asking you about your son but earlier telling you that you need to discuss these things with your H. And, so there was nothing wrong with you. He was in fact giving you mixed messages, which you felt emotionally and confused you - and would confuse anyone.

I'm really enoying David Wallin's book. I love his continual existence throughout the book that the therapy relationship is co-created. I think that's where GuruT went wrong, he just assumed it was you and wasn't taking a look to see how he was contributing to the dynamic.

Cowboy T sounds like he has a lot more sorted out. I'm so glad he was so thoughtful re: future appointments and bringing up the topic from the week before. I'm sorry you cried for so long. I'm wondering if you cried because he actually did meet some need that GuruT was unable to meet?

It all sounds good, BB. Your feelings for cowboy T will develop in time. But it might not be a bad idea to talk about dependency issues with him and get his views on it.

Liese

P.S, I hope you like the evening sessions. It just seems to me that therapy should take place in the evening - and not in broad daylight. I go right at noon. It's soooo bright at that hour, well usually.

9/5/119:27 AM

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True NorthCo-moderator

quote:
I'm very confused by this crying thing. Why do I constantly break down in therapy sessions? It was exactly what Guru would always try to get me to do. He had this thing about it. Now I'm in sessions with a T who doesn't care one way or the other whether I cry or not- and I do it constantly. It's so embarrassing. Or- maybe I just don't care what he thinks of me since I'm not attached to him. idk.

Hi Beebs... it was good to hear from you and how things are going with Cowboy. I'm sorry your son is having health issues and I hope it all gets sorted out and his is okay very soon. I know how hard it is when you are dealing with serious things with your child. My dh is not very good at helping with that too and that is why I leaned on oldT a lot in that regard. He was my son's T as well and now it's a struggle once again.

There is so much to address in your post but what I quoted above really stands out for me. Beebs the crying thing as you describe it, it your grief at losing Guru, despite his unkindness to you. You do need to grieve what was lost and you finally feel safe enough with Cowboy to allow those emotions out. You could not do this with Guru because he never made you feel safe enough to allow any of the raw emotions to come out. It's not that Cowboy doesn't care whether you cry or not, it's that he is content to wait until YOU are ready and until you feel secure and safe enough to allow him to see that part of you. How could you show this stuff to Guru when you were too worried about HIS reaction and HIS ability to contain you so that you could let the stuff flow out of you?

I firmly believe it's the consistency and stability of Cowboy that has you feeling more grounded, and more contained (outside of session), while at the same time allowing the grief and sadness to flow while in session. I very much recognize this because I am the same way with my current T.

Cowboy is not unaffected by you, he is just keepig his feelings out of the therapy and focusing on you and how you feel. And you in turn are seeing that he is okay with whatever you throw at him and that gives you the ability to keep talking and going deeper. He is showing that he cares about you through "remembering" what is important, by making sure you can see him regularly, and by being there via email.

I also think you will find emailing Cowboy a totally different experience than emailing with Guru T. I think when you are ready you should test the waters and send him an email. I found it very healing to experience the difference between emailing oldT and my T now. My T offers wonderful insightful emails that are answered quickly and in an consistent manner. He is also willing to discuss the emails in session asking what he could do to make his responses more helpful to me. I do avoid trying to process sessions with him and use them as a way to keep the connection to him. Or maybe to just let him know how I'm feeling after a session and needing some reassurance. I keep them to two or three paragraphs.

I'll post more below.

TN

9/5/1111:40 AM

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True NorthCo-moderator

quote:
So- I am amazed that Cowboy seems to be willing to book sessions out so far in advance for me. He said: "To make sure they are there for you- and if you need to cancel or shift anything, just let me know within 24 hours." GuruT assured me that, if he were ever to help me make a decision like that, I would become more and more dependent on him. But the funny thing is- I don't feel at all dependent on Cowboy, even though he has no big issue with helping me to schedule sessions and such- I like that he is there, and I'm glad I have that resource- but I don't feel dependent on him, and I don't obsess about it, or about him. And oddly- I was completely dependent of Guru- even though he told me he was doing all the right things to avoid that. I am so confused.

Beebs, this is also a key paragraph.

Guru had it all wrong. Cowboy making the decision for you to book your appointments out for 5 weeks is not YOUR decision. It is the basic frame of therapy.... to give the client consistent appointments that they can depend on. It's the therapist's responsibility to provide this... it's not a decison, it's THE THERAPY. My T reminds me I'm not in charge of his schedule LOL...when I worry he gives me too much time or he works too hard.

The reason you are not feeling so dependent in an unhealthy way on Cowboy relates to basic attachment theory. When an attachment figure behaves in a threatening way to the child the child protests to get the attention back from the AF. If the AF remains unresponsive the child cries louder, gets really anxious and clingy and makes more demands for attention. As this goes on if the AF still does not provide what the child needs, eventually the child decends into deep despair, stops asking and in extreme cases (as with orphans with no human contact) they can die.

So when Guru would withdraw his attention/affection/caring from you, it just made you more anxious. When he acted so inconsistently, you cried louder trying to get his attention. At the end you were in despair. It was good that you left him. With Cowboy... he is providing you with what you need so you don't have to scream and cry to get it and he is there... you know that and so no need to cling. You have better object constancy with him... you leave him at the end of a session and you know when you will see him again and that he will be there.... and most importantly.... HE IS ALWAYS THE SAME.

All of this is SO different than what you experienced with Guru (who was NO guru in my book)!! Beebs you are in such better and safer hands now. I'm so glad Cowboy has you scheduled for 5 weeks and I don't think he is in this for the short-term at all. I think he is wise enough to know it will take a long time for trust to develop and for the relationship to really feel safe enough for you to get to those deeper places.

You are doing great work, Beebs. Keep it up.

Love
TN

9/5/1111:50 AM

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starfishMember

BB

I continue to like just about EVERYTHING I hear about Cowboy T

He has your best interest at heart and is so confident and sure of his own role and abilitites that he can focus on you in an unselfish and focussed way. This seems to be in contrast to GuruT, which always seemed to be a lot about him and not you.

I too am so glad that he can book your sessions so far ahead - that will help you feel committed and equally show his commitment too. Both are so important.

And don't be afraid of crying BBers, your tears though scary, will be healing

starfishy

9/5/111:24 PM

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kashleyMember

((((Beebs))))

I also like Cowboy T even more every time I hear about him. Booking sessions farther out is fantastic!

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before to you, but one time I told my T that I don't care about anything and that's why I don't feel anything and she said, well maybe you care too much. Maybe, BB, the feelings you have are so enormous that they're too much to handle. That absolutely does NOT mean you're a heartless mother. I don't think that of you one bit.

It's so great that you're able to cry with Cowboy T. It means you feel safe enough and accepted enough to do so, and that is a huge thing.

I agree with TN. I think you will find emailing Cowboy a much better experience.

Thanks for posting and updating us on how you're doing with Cowboy T. (((hugs))))

9/5/113:02 PM

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sdMember

Hey Beebs,

Cowboy T is awesome.

You have received great advice. My theory is that we get obsessive, get anxious, get angry, push them away, struggle etc etc when the attachment to our T's isn't there or isn't feeling right. You seem like you are in a great place with him - well more to the point, T has created a very safe, consistent place for YOU to be feeling things. You are probably struggling with this new trusting environment and cowboy T's great approach compared to the inconsistent Guru T. Obviously you have heaps of pent up emotions inside for you to be crying - but I think if you weren't feeling attached, you wouldn't feel comfortable enough to be letting all those tears out. I see it as a really positive thing and it can only get better.

9/5/116:44 PM

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stoppersMember

I really like that cowboy T remembered and booked you sessions so you would not have to worry or even think about it. He sounds like he is giving you the time and space to do what you need to do without making it about him. And good for you for doing it with him too.

9/5/117:58 PM

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blackbirdMember

Liese, TN, Starfish, Kashley, Somedays, Stoppers and Deepfried- thank you so much for your thoughtful (and thought-provoking) replies to me. I can't talk much right now, but I just checked in and wanted to thank all of you. I will be back to respond in more depth to what you all said.

Hugs,

BB

9/6/117:34 PM

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puppetMember

((BB)) i am happy for you and i am sad for you too, but it sounds like you are in good hands with cowboy.
sorry just a quick message, but i've been thinking of you
take care,
puppet

9/8/114:07 PM

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yakusokuMember

((((BB)))) Like the others, it warms my heart to hear about how things are going with Cowboy. I know it feels different and probably will for a while, but he is so safe and steady, I bet you will be able to connect with him in the long run.

9/8/114:14 PM

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blackbirdMember

Thanks, to you too, Puppet and Yaku!

I wanted to come back and reply to the posts from before...I have not had any time, between all the stuff that has been happening around here. I haven't even got a chance to read any of the threads much, besides not being able to reply to them..

I just wanted to mention that Liese's reply, really gave me some insight into the idea that a T could have negative feelings about dependency in a client, viewing it as something "bad" and that could contribute to the dynamic. I just know that encouraging emotional dependency and vulnerability and trust in someone who is under one's care and then pulling away once that dependency has been fully accomplished... has to be one of the cruelest things a person in power could do. I can't seem to get over it. I still hurt, and it just won't go away.

TN, your comments are a real salve- but I just will not be emailing Cowboy T, though. I actually emailed him once when a friend of mine asked me for a recommendations for a counselor, and once when I needed to change an appointment time- he emailed me back both times, by the next morning, with a friendly and helpful reply. He's a nice guy- what can I say. I really like him, and I trust him as much I manage to trust. I do talk to him. I'm not a clam in there, I have things to say nowadays. But it doesn't seem to impact me in that connective way. I cry a lot. I just...I'm so ashamed. Cowboy is just like Guru, really he is...he wouldn't be happy if I came to depend on him in that way...really, he wouldn't. He asked me once..."why do you think that you became SO dependent on Dr.*****?" I became dependent on him because he melted my heart, and he was the only one who ever managed to do that so totally. He has impacted me more deeply than any other person in my whole life ever has- for better or for worse. I didn't fully comprehend that I was doing it at the time, but I gave him my heart and soul. He didn't want it. I don't blame him. He is a Dr.- not a lover, parent, friend. He doesn't want me, he doesn't want me. Just like my dad didn't want me. sheesh. Kashley, I hope you are right, that I have feelings that are just too big to feel, and that I am not just totally apathetic. Cowboy said something like that...that things can get so bad that you just stop caring anymore.

Cowboy is...great. Reliable, steady, available, and kind. He's a good counselor. I can talk to him...because I don't have the crippling transference with him. You know what is crazy? He is SO nice to me. He shakes my hand when I offer it. He looks at me with care and concern. He asks me questions and makes valid, excellent points. He tells me books to read. And he is consistent about booking appointments with me, and not leaving me hanging with that.

Last week, I was going in for a late appointment and he actually called me at home, and asked if I wanted to come in an hour earlier. I can't imagine Dr. ***** ever in a million years contacting me by phone outside of session, for any reason whatsoever. And then he made apoint during the session too tell me that I was not obligated to take the earlier session, but that he thought it might be too late for me. I just assumed that he wanted to go home earlier...idk. He seemed to be kind of making a point of it, a couple of times, telling me pointedly that it was for my benefit, not his- that he made the call or something like that. I didn't really get it. I mean it was no big deal to go in an hour earlier. Confusing kinda, that he would be all like..."you didn't have to do this, I just thought it might be easier for you..." I wonder what that was all about...

But...my point is that in spite of all this kindness and such...I just don't feel that sense of dependency on him. I hope and pray that I do not, because if that developed, I would have to leave. I can't tolerate those relationships anymore. I simply can't, they hurt too much, because no person who has me feeling like that about them can handle it cause...i'm just yucky or something, to them.

Thanks for listening...I am sorry that I did not reply to each of you individually, I am just rambling and now it's gotten too long, and too negative. I guess I am trying to say that Cowboy is helping me, and that is unmistakeable based on the results I see if my life. ISo it makes me sad that I don't feel any special connection or care to him. Like there must be something wrong with me, I can't connect unless the person is withdrawing and hurtful. yike.

I must go-

Love,

BB

9/10/1110:32 PM

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