Hey, I have never posted here but wanted to give a quick reply...

I think you should dump this therapist and find one who is a better fit for you. It seems as though you are testing her (as we all do) but she is failing every test. It reminds me of all of the bad relationships I stayed in with exes ....I had tested them and they repeatedly failed them, yet I stuck around hoping I could change their ways and break through their wall. Trust me....it just gets worse. I think you should start shopping around for a new therapist.

Good luck.

quote:

I am having reservations about the new T. I left her the terrible thing that I have been unable to say for hte last six months and I then panicked when I came home and for two days just fell apart

Hi Sadly, ... I do understand this but I think the issue is that you are pushing yourself too hard and you have disclosed some major trauma to a woman that you hardly know. It's no wonder that you are feeling upset, uncomfortable and sort of freaked out about this. Trauma work needs to be done in stages and the first stage is to build a safe, trusting and solid relationship with the T. This stage takes the longest (as in years) as you are getting to know each other, explore boundaries and establish the necessary trust. What you have done was to divulge a trauma to a T you have not yet built a relationship with.

In my search for a new T, a very important aspect was to find someone who allowed outside contact... either phone email or both. This ruled out a lot of Ts... mostly because in my mind... if they did not allow outside contact then they didn't understand trauma and attachment injury. My newT says he has less disruptions to deal with by allowing contact than his colleagues who do not and have to handle clients melting down or acting out.

I don't think it was very humane for her to respond that way... she could have been kinder to you, especially as this was a new relationship. She could have said... Sadly what you told me is fine, we are fine... talk to you in session further about it. You were not asking for processing via email but only reassurance. If she is unable to provide this then I don't see your relationship succeeding because this was the same issue you were having with your C. The outside contact.

It seems to be that this new T may be very rigid in her boundaries. Tell you to call the suicide hotline when you are clearly not suicidal just dealing with shame, is ridiculous. Does she have experience with complex trauma and attachment?

Sadly, I think you need to slow down in your trauma work and develop the relationship before you dive into the trauma. Be clear about the boundaries and if they are not what you really need then try to find someone who can provide this for you.

Lastly, a T should always hear and pay attention to your feelings and not just assume they know everything. She was wrong to impose her view on you.

I hope this helps and does not upset you. This is just how I see it as someone who has been through the wringer trying to settle in with a new T herself. The thing I told myself when I was searching was... to not settle for less than I want in a T. Maybe I was lucky in finding newT but I did sit and list the qualities I wanted in a T and then went out and looked for him.

Good luck.

TN

Thanks, I appreciate your comments, I think you are right TN< I am going too fast and this T has only been practicing for 2 years, so she is very inexperienced in boundaries really and probably is trying to keep them totally rigid cos she is a bit unsure herself, I find her attitude (re tea and texting reassurance - actually unkind)
The no tea incident comes from when I was shaking and my teeth were chattering and I had an hour to drive home and the session was ended and I was still in a terrible state, and three times she asked me what I wanted and I just did not know, but then I remembered that hot sweet tea might ground me so asked and she said " No I don't give hot drinks, it makes clients think they have come for a friendly chat for one reason and there are other reasons."
the next session I said that I found that unkind and felt that anyone else on the planet would have given me tea at that point, she said "see, you are ALREADY testing boundaries!" I thought I was simply pointing out that I thought the tea incident was odd.

Sadly,... the fact that she has only been practicing for two years concerns me in your case. What is her experience with trauma and attachment injury? I am concerned that if she screws this up through inexperience it will further hurt and damage you. Is she young?

NewT is in his mid fifties and I find that comforting. He has been practicing in all different venues (clinics, hospitals, privately etc.) for 30 years or so. He has seen just about everything and he talks about the "process" and how he trusts it because he has seen it. I like that because even though I don't believe anything right now... I am sort of hanging onto his belief that I will one day be okay... because I'm not feeling very okay these days... and in fact, I still find myself on my knees in grief.

I would question her carefully and thoroughly about how she practices and her experience. It would be easier to cut your losses now and leave rather than have a repeat of your C happen to you.

TN

I shall talk to her monday about all this. I think the fact that as soon as I am out of the session - she is not involved/interested/there for me is really hard for me, as I struggle between sessions so much.
TN - I am still on my knees with grief too, this week has been horrible. I actually looked up where she lived, the ex C and went and drove by, just to get a sense of her. I was teaching tonight and when I got in my car I was sobbing because I just remembered a time a few months before she ended with me, when she said ' You are not too much, you are just struggling, and I will not give up on you." and how I felt her care and love for me and actually was begining to feel for the first time in my life what secure attachment could be, and then - BANG - I can never see her, I cannot reach out to her, she has walked away like she has died. And dying would be easier, - than this.
Oh - now I am crying again. Bummer.

hmmm, I'm sorry you are hurting from your T's boundaries. I can see both sides of this, and actually agree with both sides of this, which is kinda confusing. But, I guess I only want to say, that I remember you asking us to remind you that you really like and trusted this T, because you knew it was going to get tough like this...confusing and hard to figure out whether she is right for you, boundaries are too tough, etc...so I'm just suggesting you try to think about the times you liked this T and why, and compare those feelings to the ones you are having now...and see which feelings give you a feeling of more peace and security and a sense of "it's going to be ok." I'd go with the feelings that lead towards a sense of feeling like that- if you are able to find such a feeling in either decision. I hope syour session will help with clearing some of this up, too. My T recently told me that he doesn't want to talk about stuff on email anymore. He softened it with a sincere aopology about not sticking with the "original plan" and then allowing all the emailing...but it still hurts to not really know where I stand for sure with him on this issue, is it ok, was it ok, or is it not ok...did he mean it when he said it was ok before, or was he lying about that, or did he mean it when he said it is better not to talk about stuff on email...I would much prefer if he had never allowed it in the first place, to taking it away later. My T is kinda a softy. I'm not *always* sure that is the best thing for me. But it's under control enough that it hasn't become really detrimental. I don't think you'd have to worry about that with your current T...she sounds like she knows her boundary, that's for sure, anbd isn't afraid to let you know it either. there is a certain amount of safety in that, I think. Does your P allow between session contact? just wondering if you could use him in that capacity for emerg situations,...just some thoughts...hope they help.

hugs,

BB

This is such an interesting thread! I started a reply earlier, and it just got lost, but I'll try again.

Sadly, I'm sorry you're having to face the pain of T's limits when you are still in a phase of loss. Very tough. Also sad that you have had to change your name!! This one is so much... sadder. ((((Sadly))))

Totally agree with TN and Mac that you are entitled to define what *you* need from a T and seek it out. Having said that, I've found it really interesting to read of DF's positive experience with much firmer boundaries, and I think there's a lot to think about there. I'm speaking as a layperson here, but for myself I want to be careful of the idea that working with trauma and attachment is necessarily served best by between-session availability. I respect those who know that it is what they want and need, and would support anyone in seeking it out - and TN, I also think your position on this is extremely well informed and valuable - but I also wonder about cases where there is something different to be learned from having no contact, which might be more valuable in some cases.

Sadly, I'll say again that I'm a layperson and have no idea what is clinically best for you (gosh this new name makes for some interesting sentences!)- but DF brings up some really interesting points about this. I can see that between-session contact could potentially lead to situations where it's harder to titrate processing (because the T is always in proximity, and one gets less distance from therapy). I'd also say further to DF's point about reassurance, that I would personally find it very difficult to draw a line between reassurance and processing in lots of situations. Right now that line seems clear, and the reassurance you'd need is minimal. In more charged, crisis situations, it may not be anywhere near as clear. So while it seems like she's being stingy now, I can respect the clarity of being consistent right from the beginning. This may well help you (not necessarily on conscious levels) to manage your own 'exposure' in the therapy. If you know she is not available at all between sessions, you may well self-titrate in certain ways - decide to slow down for your own self-preservation, rather than jumping in the deep end in the hope that she has the resources to manage what happens next (yes, your dream does come to mind!).

I also want to support what Beebs is saying about your earlier relief in her clear messages about boundaries. It strikes me that you have articulated in several ways a definite desire for unmistakeable limits that you can push against, but which won't bend for you. I guess this is partly about wanting to know that someone else is 'in charge' of the situation, and can relieve you of the responsibility of managing all the structures and the consequences. This I think *is* a kind of freedom, and a powerful one to explore in therapy. But when you give over that authority, it's not always going to feel good. Indeed, I think those feelings that are coming up are actually part of the freedom - having something to push against.

I'm not saying you should necessarily stay with this T or that she's necessarily right for you. But I do think, as Beebs suggested, it's worth going back to those earlier desires for a particular framework, and seeing how your current experience matches to that.

Take care,
Jones

And by the way, welcome LadyGrey! One of my favourite Ts - err, teas.

HAve not really read your posts in detail because I am having a really rough day - in my blog I posted it, so will cut and paste here.

quote:

Have been feeling sick about seeing P and what I am going to say.
Woke up feeling so dreadful and yet made myself get up and go and see dreaded Doctor.

I went in determined to keep calm and reasonable.
I told him that we felt very let down by him. That NewFinder had persuaded me to have him come and visit me on that Crisis Friday. That he came and he listened and then he assured me that he would make sure that I had the necessary support and then he ended me working with Newfinder, who WAS my support.
He said that he did not make the decision to end it. He said the NewFinder felt that my needs would be met better in secondary services and he agreed with that. I said in what way would my needs be met? He said that the pyschologist is better trained and is specialised help.
I explained that I was working through complex trauma and attachment difficulties and had begun to make a secure attachment to NewFinder, begun to trust her and learn to love and let in caring, and then he terminated my work with her. I said that my colleagues find it very difficult to understand how he could terminate just at the crucial stage of the attachment work, as this is obviously going to retraumatise me further. He reiterated that he believed that secondary care could meet my needs more. I asked him how one hour every OTHER week with P who professes that he does not feel an expert on trauma care, and NO interim contact constitutes better support when I had two hours EACH week with NewFinder and some interim support. He just repeated that they believed that secondary care would meet my needs better.
I said that I am now left with huge gaps, at the moment, nearly three week gap between seeing P, and no interim support plus the trauma of the broken therapeutic relationship. I asked him to be more careful in future, and actually find out what kind of care or support the secondary services provide FIRST before assuming that a patient will get more support.
I asked him how he could ignore the advice of P who said that it would be better for me to work THROUGH this stage with NewFinder and see her until Easter. I said you refused to listen to the clinical pyschologists advice and the doctor saidm "I was never told that the psychologist had said that to NewFinder. She did not tell me. "
I was stunned as I clearly remember Newfinder saying that she had told the surgery team and specifically Dr Edwards that the P had advised that it would be better for me to continue seeing the Counsellor until Easter, she had waited until the Friday to ask him and he had refused to extend the time.
He just kept saying " I hear that this is how you perceive things but it is not how I see things as having happened. We felt that your needs were not able to be met in primary care and so I referred you to see a psychologist."
So I ended with saying how I am completely stuck now, with less support and less help and that did not appear to be a supportive helpful recommendation from his part.
And we ended there, disagreeing.
It means that NewFinder did not want to work with me anymore and she was NOT going to work with me anymore and that she was determined not to have the termination changed in any way. She told me my doctor had made the decision and my doctor told me that NewFinder had recommended strongly that I get moved to secondary care. It was all after Crisis Friday, when I had disclosed on the Wednesday and then she did NOT like the little part of me saying " and I could keep doing that (have a crisis) , and get more time by having a crisis, as I get LOTS of time with you then". That was the last straw for her.
I just feel such lack of respect for her right now.

It was really hard. I am glad I went and kept calm and logical but it was very scary and my mouth dried up and I felt like I was being viewed as seriously strange and yet I was coming across as my most together if a bit under strain.

Then I did the weekly shop, came home, got stuck into cleaning the house for the weekend and then got ready to see the P and checked at 12.30 that my appointment WAS at 2.30pm and not at 2pm and then I see it written in my diary as 11.30am.
I am so upset. I ring his secretary and he has just phoned back and said he will fit me in at 3.30 for an hour. Thank god, he is so kind.

Am reading your posts, all of you, carefully. I shall ponder - this is quite an issue - and a very delicate one for me. I deeply appreciate you all posting, you are very kind and very supportive, and you have given time and care to your posts, thankyou.
I shall see P at 3.30pm
and T on Monday at 2pm
and I am going to try and KNOCK off for the weekend, ie, have a RELAXING time, as this is wearing me out.

and I shall post something back at some point when I have digested your insightful and interesing posts.

I don't remember fast enough that my name is 'Sadly' so I read the posts and wonder why everyone is so sad about what they have to tell me or what they are pondering cos you all keep saying "and Sadly,..."
!!

I just wanted to pop in and clarify a few things...

First, I'm not disparaging Ts that are young and don't have 20 years experience... what I AM questionning is the type of experience she has and that goes even for long time practicing Ts. If they have never dealt with a patient with complex trauma/attachment issues, then it will be difficult for both parties. If you have a T who is practicing for a year or two but has dealth with complex trauma either in training situations or in their own practice, then I would feel a bit more confident in them. I learned this the hard way and just trying to share the wisdom.

Also, I think people have different conceptions of what outside contact is. For me it is an email once a week or every other week. A phone call maybe once a month or every 3 weeks, lasting maybe 3-5 minutes. I don't make use of the contact for processing. It's more for connection.... like "are you there? are we okay?" and his response "I'm here and everything you told me is fine, you are doing well". That is all I need.

The other point I want to make is that if a T is good at working with trauma, the need for extra contact will be minimized because they keep you within the "therapeutic window"... meaning that once you leave you are no longer activated or overly activated to the point you are either dissociating or in distress. A good T will be sure to titrate the trauma processing and take care that the patient is okay to leave. And to reiterate.... no trauma processing should be attempted BEFORE there is a solid, trusting, safe, boundary defined and well established relationship between the T and the patient.

BTW, everyone above has made very good and valid points and all should be taken into consideration.

Good luck, Sadly. I hope you manage to have that relaxing weekend.

TN

So Sadly, LOL!!! Anyway, I still do not have a complete understanding of boundaries, except that they aid in identity formation??? and individuation and separation??? It's all very confusing to me, especially when it comes to myself, what I am trying to get from people and how I go about it, usually fruitlessly. (is that a word?) But, I know how much it hurts.

When you are activated, like you are now, it's really hard to think straight. Tn and her T and all the others seem so right on that it seems almost silly for a T not to allow outside contact as it could lead to more meltdowns and clients acting out. Is this what she is saying? Because I hear her saying she doesn't allow outside contact for process stuff. Which might mean she may allow oustide contact for other reasons. And it sounds like you need to talk to her about this. There are genuine times when we all need to reach out for support. So maybe she is trying to get you to distinguish between "process" and genuine reaching out for support???? It's so hard to figure out the line between the two, but maybe the process stuff that she doesn't want you to call her about is the stuff that we replay from our childhoods??? She may be trying to bring to your awareness how you put your stuff out there too quickly (looking for connection???) and how much it hurts when she doesn't respond??? This could be a pattern you repeat out in the real world.

I read something on a shrinks website about how when we're in pain, we can't share it with just anyone. Because, for some reason, we are a species that takes advantage of the vulnerable. And, if we reveal our pain to just anyone, we could get really really hurt. But, you have to talk about it to someone. And usually that right person is a T.

Good luck, sadly. Try to chill over the weekend and let us know how it goes on Monday.

AGain, my blog entry:

quote:

LATER
P WAS so kind. His kindness is REAL. I told him that his kindness is really hard for me, that it is getting under my defenses.

I told him that I have made a decision NOT to disclose about how the 8 yr old copes, as I do not feel I have enough support in place if I do that. He is aware that SteadyT knows and that I am finding the fact that she knows, difficult enough. He also agreed that he thought telling him just now would be too much. I said I need to go slowly and that my usual method of just blurting things out and then trying to handle having disclosed something really traumatic, was not a good idea at the moment. I said that I felt I was going towards the edge of the water fall and did not want to go over - did not feel safe right now.

I said that it felt like it was not okay to tell, that I was not sure what would happen if I tell and that although I thought he might be able to help me if I tell, if felt very scary telling and yet I wished that he knew.

A bit further into the session I am talking about my family and my father being violent and probably raping my mother and me not knowing how I could help. I talked about feeling that I could not protect her and also wishing that someone knew, and yet feeling unable to tell anyone. I explained how I was told NOT to tell because the shame of people knowing would be terrible, and yet wishing that someone DID know and could help and P said that it did seem to mirror what I felt about not telling the bit that I was scared to tell him.

I found that a very interesting point. Both are about shame and both are about being found out in a way, about people 'knowing' something that is not something to be proud of, but something to be hidden.

I told him how it is bit like how it must have felt being gay in the 50's - a shameful secret which you hide because you know people will label you as wrong if you tell.

I also said that people have three reactions if I tell:
1. view it is a normal response to what I have been through
2. label and judge me
3. react (ie 'get turned on by it' - but I did not say that) and then I am in danger.

I also gingerly said that it explains why I keep getting into such terrible fixes, that such terrible things can happen to me.

We talked again how people have shameful things hidden, most people do and most people carry things that they cannot bear others to know. Each person has a secret world and that is normal. I agreed but I also explained that I am scared that if I tell, my normal boundaries about what I share and do not share, as a mature woman, might go and then I share too much. Which is why I am trying to research it, talk about it on line to people, blog it, discuss it, try and work it out.

I told him how I was so hurt by SteadyT not sending any reassurance back and he was intrigued about my reaction around not receiving reassurance. He asked me to think deeply in this moment about what I felt would be her honest reaction to what I have told her, and I had to admit that I would not judge anyone, so why should she. So he pointed out that I could indeed reassure myself. Interesting.

He also tentatively said that he wanted to give me some advice which is something he rarely does. He asked me to go and see SteadyT on Monday - that it was important to at least talk to her about my reservations. I grudgingly admitted that I would.

He said that he was at work one day between Christmas and New Year and that if it did not disrupt my holiday plans too much, maybe we could arrange to meet then. I said that I did not want to give too much away but that I would like to see him then. ( I pondered telling him that I am attached to him, and that I find it hard NOT seeing him, but then I thought he probably knows that anyway. It also felt too vulnerable and exposing to say.)

I was fascinated that I went off in a whole tangent about how painful the inner pain for me is, the pain that must stem from being a six month old baby who was burnt and left for dead. I seemed to need to get him to hear how bad that pain is, that it IS off the scale and I went on about this at length, saying that I am not exaggerating. He did say that he believed me and he also thought that it was about the baby not having any words for what was happening, or understanding or context and so that made it more intolerable and overwhelming.

We talked about whether that was mendable. He thought I might learn to live with it, rather like being a three legged dog. I said that being a three legged dog was not acceptable, that we have to find a way to reduce that amount of pain in my mind when I am triggered. I realized that I am not willing to accept that I might have to live with that level of pain cropping up for the rest of my life. I feel that there HAS to be a way to cope with it and heal it.

that led to us talking about whether attachment pain, or separation anxiety is something that is helped by more contact or not and how the different therapeutic schools disagree on this, with one large group definately thinking more contact during dependency is better and the other lot leaving the client to learn to handle it on their own. I have always favoured the former and I kept saying how I do not understand HOW people do not understand that if you are left in terrible anguish, you just get retraumatized, you don't learn how to cope with it, I don't . I just get worse.

So what is it that I am wanting here? I think the baby that was left, wants someone to be there. Just wants another human being to be there, and that when they are - the baby is soothed. And in time, that soothing becomes internal. Is known internally. AT the moment, I have a huge aching raw gnawing gap of pain in there instead. Which I cover up well usually but the work that I did with NewFinder brought it back up again and I now am living with it on a daily basis, having it resurface regularly.

What does not quite fit, is that I am also able to just enjoy my family and appreciate my family time and fun time that I have doing the various things that I do in my leisure time. I am also a bit worried that my friendships these days seems to involve having my friends hear my woes about therapy and all this stuff. Like they are having to give me a lot of support. It reminded me of what NewFinder said " When I look over all at our work together, I would sum it up as you seem to be very skilled at getting care from people" and how I disagreed with that. That is what SHE felt it was about. Yes, of course I can see that I do know how to make therapists care: I tell them the awful stuff and boy do they care and deeply wish I had not been through the things I have been through.

I want P to care and he is caring. That reassures me and soothes me. Is that wrong? When I look at my early life, there was not a lot of care going on that I can see, or was it that I could not let it in? And then in later life, I made friends but I was quite cut off inside and did not even know it, so I came across as sociable and caring and yet I was carrying a hole I did not even know was there, was where I was operating from.

Again, I ask myself 'what do I want from therapy?'
I think I want someone to hold me and be there when the pain is overwhelming and then with time I carry their care inside me and can do that for myself.

Is that so wrong of me?

perhaps I disclose too much on this site, but I do find your comments helpful.

Hi Sadly, I read your post with interest. Just today newT and I had a wonderful discussion about dependence. Luckily we are in agreement on this. Depending on him is fine until I can learn to soothe myself and internalize him to soothe myself. We cannot just be commanded to do this or flip a switch. This involves long term consistency from another healthy person (a T or P) where we learn to self-regulate in an implicit way... as we spend time with them the neural pathways in our brain change and we carve out new ones, more healthy ones. I shared with him a passage from AG's fav book, A General Theory of Love written by 3 P's, Thomas Lewis, Fari Amini, and Richard Lannon. I will post part of the book that I read to my T today and he loved it so much he ordered the book from Amazon today.

***********************

The first part of emotional healing is being limbically known--having someone with a keen ear catch your melodic essence. A child with emotionally hazy parents finds trying to know himself like wandering around a museum in the dark: almost anything could exist within its walls. He cannot ever be sure of what he senses. For adults, a precise seer's light can still split the night, illuminate treasures long thought lost, and dissolve many fearsome figures in to shadows and dust. Those who succeed in revealing themselves to another find the dimness receding from their own visions of self. Like people awakening from a dream, they slough off the accumulated, ill-fitting trappings of unsuitable lives. Then the mutual fund manager may become a sculptor, or vice versa; some friendships lapse into dilapidated irrelevance as new ones deepen; the city dweller moves to the country, where he feels finally at home. As limbic clarity emerges, a life takes form.

Limbic Regulation

Balance Through Relatedness
Certain bodily rhythms fall into synchrony with the ebb and flow of day and night. These rhythms are termed circadian, from the Latin for "about a day." A more fitting appellation is circumlucent, because they revolve around light as surely as Earth. Human physiology finds a hub not only in light, but also in the harmonizing activity of nearby limbic brains, Our neural architecture places relationships at the crux of our lives, where, blazing and warm, they have the power to stabilize. When people are hurting and out of balance, they turn to regulating affiliations; groups, clubs, pets, marriages, friendships, masseuses, chiropractors, the Internet. All carry at least the potential for emotional connection. Together, those bonds do more good than all the psychotherapists on the planet.
Some therapists recoil from the pivotal power of relatedness. They have been told to deliver insight--a job description evocative of estate planning or financial consulting, the calm dispensation of tidy data packets from the other side of an imposing desk. A therapist who fears dependence will tell his patient, sometimes openly, that the urge to rely is pathologic. In doing so he denigrates a cardinal tool. A parent who rejects a child's desire to depend raises a fragile person. Those children, grown to adulthood, are frequently among those who come for help. Shall we tell them again that no one can find an arm to lean on, that each alone must work to ease a private sorrow? Then we shall repeat an experiment already conducted; many know its result only too well. If patient and therapist are to proceed together down a curative path, they must allow limbic regulation and its companion moon, dependence, to make their revolutionary magic.
Many therapists believe that reliance fosters a detrimental dependency. Instead, they say, patients should be directed to "do it for themselves" -- as if they possess everything but the wit to throw that switch and get on with their lives. But people do not learn emotional modulation as they do geometry or the names of state capitals. They absorb the skill from living in the presence of an adept external modulator, and they learn it implicitly. Knowledge leaps the gap from one mind to the other, but the learner does not experience the transferred information as an explicit strategy. Instead, a spontaneous capacity germinates and becomes a natural part of the self, like knowing how to ride a bike or tie one's shoes. The effortful beginnings fade and disappear from memory.
People who need regulation often leave therapy sessions feeling calmer, stronger, safer, more able to handle the world. Often they don't know why. Nothing obviously helpful happened--telling a stranger about your pain sounds nothing like a certain recipe for relief. And the feeling inevitably dwindles, sometimes within minutes, taking the warmth and security with it. But the longer a patient depends, the more his stability swells, expanding infinitesimally with every session as length is added to a woven cloth with each pass of the shuttle, each contraction of the loom. And after he weaves enough of it, the day comes when the patient will unfurl his independence like a pair of spread wings. Free at last, he catches a wind and rides into other lands.
************

I think that every therapist should read this (and the entire book which is wonderful). Allowing ourselves to depend on our T is actually a sign of health not pathology. But many psychoanalytically trained Ts fear dependency and were taught it was wrong to allow a patient to depend. Thankfully, some of this is changing.

It was important to me to read this passage to newT because how he would react to it would tell me a lot about him. He told me it was all true and very beautifully written and that he agrees with it. This was so important for me to hear and I had to restrain myself from jumping out of my chair to hug him (yikes did I say that?) It told me that he "gets" it and I felt just a tiny little bit more safe with him.

Sadly... I think I like the sound of your newP for YOU..more than I am liking your steadyT right now. But I will giver her the benefit of the doubt until you are able to talk this out with her. I am not at all saying she is not a good T... just that the fit with you may not be the most comfortable one at this time. I think your newP is right in that you need to see her and discuss your feelings about her email and about contact and her position on dependency.

TN

I'm finding this thread fascinating, Sadly. errr... S. So many of my own questions about dependency...which I have a hard time putting into words, are coming up for me here. I think I have been begging my T for a long while to allow me to be dependent on him, and I think you are hoping for the same thing. And I think he does allow this, and maybe (???) SteadyT does too- but it's also really confusing because hm, maybe it feels like they goes back and forth on it a bit. My T has used the same exact phrase as you, DF, saying that "I should not just feed you fish, but give you a fishing rod and teach you how to use it." But my T has also said that it is ok to be dependent for awhile. Something deep inside of me is very confused about this concept. I think on some level, I have always known that I needed this dependence, that in having someone "love" me in this way, I will begin to grow, automatically, almost without my knowledge. The thing I am having most difficult time with, is figuring out if my T is providing this type of care for me.. is this therapy he is giving me really helping me?

It's funny, because I used to have arguments with my T about this issue at the begin of therapy...for months I besieged him with requests, long emails, trying to explain myself, all the time not even realizing that there were books (and websites ) out there devoted to this concept. The fact that I *knew* about this deep inside without ever having read a word on the subject, was enough to convince me once I started also reading about it- here and elsewhere. (A couple books by Conrad Baars and Anna Terruwe which seems to me to be the same concepts explained in terms of love instead of science, is all I've really read, but it seems like the very same thing- and it recently turns out that my T says he "has much in common with their understanding") It is very weird to spend months trying to explain something you *know* you need to one's therapist, thinking all the while that you must be absolutely crazy to think you need this- only to have the concepts appear as clear as day in other written literature! This is the way it has played out for me. I'm convinced by the first *knowing* and trying to put into words for my T, *what I needed* (as he was telling me all the time "ask for what you need-" then reading about what I had already known and was trying to explain to him- Does that make sense? It was like a revelation to me: "Aha! I'm NOT crazy- these smart psychologists are saying the same thing!"

How can I figure out if my T is on board or not? Also there are a lot of pitfalls in the dependency framework, that deeply confuse me, and I can become very ambivalent about these concepts, and think, "oh please, T- just take the reins and tell me what to do, what to think- before I drive myself nutso." I guess for me that is the dependency, that I don't know how or what to think for myself, even in the middle of this argument about dependency itself. It's weird, confusing arena for me.

I personally don't like to think of the concepts in scientific terms such as "limbic resonance" there is just something about all of that that tends to put me off, for some reason, but that is *just me* and no offence is intended at all, it's just my own little weird reaction-...feels like it's just "making it ok by giving it a scientific term" for therapists to love their clients...when really, I have always been unable to help thinking it must be ok, anyway. ohhh, I'm not explaining my thoughts well. This is really important to me. I'm hoping we can keep discussing it. I also really need some serious help and insight in this area. Oh, I really do agree with both sides of this argument! It is SOOOOO confusy for me.

Thanks so much for this thread, Sadly...you are generating a lot of awesome, enlightening discussion here.

Blackbird

Sorry I always edit my rplies a million times after posting them.

DF-

quote:

my fear is addiction to the attention, and care - becoming codependent or losing myself in being regulated by another person.

I think my T holds a good balance between care and support, and also knowing that I’m my own person- meaning being complete in yourself and your accomplishments, and that who you are as a person does not depend on being with someone else. He reminds me that all of my progress and accomplishments are because of ME, not him, or him & I together. He also didn’t hesitate to tell me that if I suddenly quit therapy he would neither miss me nor really care that I was gone (thanks a lot! Lol). It’s obviously different for everyone, but for me, my T offering attention and care has not stopped me in any way from growing, moving towards health, forming a stronger self. I also don’t think I’m dependent on him in that I’m okay when he’s on vacation, and if he left my life for whatever reason I’m still a whole person without him, even though I appreciate his support, dedication, and knowledge as a therapist.

quote:

if a t offers unlimited outside contact/support how does the client ever try out what they've learned on their own?

I guess you could say that my T does allow unlimited outside contact in that I can call or text whenever I want, even though phone calls are limited to 15 minutes and texts are normally maybe 3 or 4 back and forth, and it’s sometimes a few hours before he calls me back. But anyway I don’t think calling my T has ever stopped me from using my coping skills… My phone calls are normally mainly someone to cry to, and tell me I’m not insane for feeling that way or maybe talk about something I noticed in the recording; then when we get off the phone I go back to self-soothing, using coping skills, or whatever. For me it’s been kinda like if I had a parent that I could go to with a problem, but since I don’t & I’m still young and live with my parents, my T has temporarily filled that spot.

I hope that maybe answers your questions and doesn’t just confuse you further!

Interestingly I tried to read the posts above and just could not - found I felt a bit misunderstood. also I have been out playing carols ALL day and I am knackered but really happy as joining a band a year ago has made so many happy times in my life.
I shall come back to these posts when I have more energy and can cope with reading them.

One of the things that is very distinct in my internal awareness now, is that I was left for dead ages six months old, after experiencing annihilating pain and having eventually switched off inside. This then go re triggered each time I had to go be in hospital for more major operations and recovery time, until I was four years old.From what it feels like in my mind, I have numbed out to feeling care at some level inside. When I am with P for example I am just beginning to feel his kindness and it is melting through my defenses. It is a palpable feeling, it is different. It is what I had begun to experience with the ex C,and it is different to any internal experience I have previously had. Those T's and P's who know my history definitely think (and I fully agree) the the later traumas are NOW smoke screens keeping people away from the core trauma which is pre verbal and formed my neural pathways, so I am basically wired to be cut off from feeling that others care. So for me feeling cared for in pre verbal healing, is powerful and it starts to change the way I FEEL. when that comes in, I have ground to stand on.
What is confusing is that I developed an extremely effecting coping personality around it that does yoga, meditation, mindfulness, breathing work, etc to self regulate. I teach how to come through depression and anxiety etc, it has been my job for 20 years now and so it is almost funny that when this pre verbal stuff kicks in I have no access to the competent adult who has zillions of skills. From what we can work out, that six month old baby is screaming and we can shout all we like AT her to cope and be skilled but she has not yet felt real soothing and she has no real cognitive brain to click into place. Amazing but true. There were moments of feelig soothing with he ex C but then the ex C did what the people did at the time of the original core trauma:LEFT.
so now I am struggling to NOT go near the core pain, the pre verbal annihiliating pain that went on for hours, - but I fear I am going over the edge anyway.
People have told me that I may not survive if I go over in to this - and I think that has an element of truth.
I have built up ways to keep away from it - all my life. but it is now breaking through,and as it breaks through - i am at last reaching out. Since September I started reaching out, calling out, sensing that OTHERS may be there,
but then when the ex c walked away from me, leaving me in that pain, I stopped calling out again. I closed down inside again.
so now the journey is to progress slowly, and I think people posted on this thread earlier, about NOT rushing things, so I will take one step forward and dare to disclose, and then stabilise with my own skills and training and then take one tiny step forward again, and keep it really really slow. Absorbing the kindness as i go.

Care for me is terrifying. Absolutely terrifying as it is melting my mind, heart, and way of being defenses. The pain is surfacing.

We know now from research that a T embodies and transmits caring and the client picks that up at a cellular level, we are changed by simply being with someone who is BEING kind. (TN's quotes go into this in detail.)

I am experiencing the earthquake experience of knowing that - it is shaking my foundations.

Also, I am rather concerned that if that opens up in me too fast,I may be in deep trouble. The inner pain is , I have to say, phenomenal. I have had two long child births without pain relief and a major hip dislocation in an accident and none of those pains are any where near the pain that the inner pain deep in my mind is like - this inner pain in my mind is SCREAMING annihilating pain.
anyway, if it opens to fast, I am left BEING a small child and THAT is not okay - it leaves me too wide open to function well. So slow and slow and slow.
I felt kindness from the ex C and I now have a sense of that in my mind and heart (despite the mess and craziness of the ending) and when it gets to about a 6 on the scale (of one to ten) I locate that memory of kindness in my mind and sit with it, and it soothes. so I know I am on the right track.

The P said I would never be locked up for being a screaming baby in pain, because I always have an adult mind able to at least say what is happening, even if I can't use the pre frontal lobes to cognitively work out what to DO.

This process is slow for me. My P said that if Steady T cannot give interim support whilst I go through the screaming six month old's pain and annihilation feelings, then I need to make sure I have others in place to be there for me, That it is irrational to expect that baby to be able to haul herself out, when she does not even understand what is happening to her.

I wonder if some of the people here have not experienced such early formative severe trauma where the very brain itself is changed and wired and it altered my whole way of being.

But today I went and played carols, in old peoples homes etc and I have enjoyed it THOROUGHLY and I shall go off and do another wonderful meditation thing tomorrow for the day and spend time with my family, I have a real solid lifestyle of fun and truly enjoyable things that are making this HORRENDOUS present journey - more or less tolerable in small phases if not bearable.

And when it breaks through, that awful pain, then I am TRYING to reach out and not just give in to despair which is my usual reactive pattern. That is what I did back then, give in to utter despair and close down/ I know I did it, cos I FEEL it happen over and over again when I am in that pain and there is NO ONE there.

You would not leave a horse in that much pain and it baffles me that the human race might walk away from a person in that level of emotional and physical pain ( and yes, I have the pain of the burns come back in all their gory detail PHYSICALLY - darn it)

WE are all different, and where one person is at is different from anothers, and it is really hard on here, cos we advise from WHERE WE ARE AT and not from where the other person is at, sometimes.

In the midst of all this I am training in EFT and EMDR and hoping that the small child can use those when the small child's pain is taking up so much of my thinking space.
This quote from teh book about Love:

quote:

They absorb the skill from living in the presence of an adept external modulator, and they learn it implicitly. Knowledge leaps the gap from one mind to the other, but the learner does not experience the transferred information as an explicit strategy. Instead, a spontaneous capacity germinates and becomes a natural part of the self, like knowing how to ride a bike or tie one's shoes. The effortful beginnings fade and disappear from memory.
People who need regulation often leave therapy sessions feeling calmer, stronger, safer, more able to handle the world. Often they don't know why. Nothing obviously helpful happened--telling a stranger about your pain sounds nothing like a certain recipe for relief. And the feeling inevitably dwindles, sometimes within minutes, taking the warmth and security with it. But the longer a patient depends, the more his stability swells, expanding infinitesimally with every session as length is added to a woven cloth with each pass of the shuttle, each contraction of the loom. And after he weaves enough of it, the day comes when the patient will unfurl his independence like a pair of spread wings. Free at last, he catches a wind and rides into other lands.
************

I really agree with TN on this. It is a truth. I feel it. I leave P's room, feeling a betterness inside that is still with me 24 hours later, and the only thing I can pin point it on, is his gentle kindness to me. He listens, he hears, he does not judge and he seems to have my best interests at heart and the part of me that is scared and hurting and frightened and feels so judged, is soothed. and then gets on with her ways of being and her fun activities and truly smiles inside and starts enjoying herself and her husband and her kids and her hobbies. It is quite miraculous. and they in turn then give a well being inside and so I am growing.


I am glad DeepFried, you post, because I think we challenge each other, we are perhaps coming from different places and what works for me may not work for you and vice versa but it is truly fascinating read your posts and I want to thank you for the time and energy you put into writing them and thinking about this hugely intriguing topic.
I don't tell my T's stuff to MAKE them care, I POINT out to them that they can be waylaid by my traumas, and even this week illustrated to all three of my team - how this can happen. I told P that when I first came back from the country where I was imprisoned, tortured and mulitiply raped, over nine weeks, I tried to tell a dear friend what had happened to me and he vomited for three days. Well THAT gets T's and P's attention but - as I repeatedly say to them, that is not the trauma that is deeply hurting me, - THAT trauma I have worked with and it is now an echo, the REAL trauma which is messing me up big time, is the six month old to eight year old stuff which is CHAOS in here. REal chaos. And blow me, I don't talk about it,

So with Steady T I am talking about what 8 yr old me feels, and with P I am talking about 6 month old me and with the EMDR person we are just working on which ever comes to mind as hurting most and WORKING on it.

But I still like your point that if I went there and said nothing they would still care for me. Actually both would ask me to think about leaving therapy fairly soon as there was no pain to process !! but I get your point.

I have locked away the deepest traumas, I spent one year working with ex C (after intermittent therapy over the last 30 years - totalling seven years) and at last I have come to the formative trauma pain, and it is HELL.

I veer AWAY from talking about it, the level of feeling of annihilation is so great. And think about it,I WAS experiencing annihilation. I am not exaggerating. Which is why I think it is so important that P said he BELIEVED me, I have had trouble ALL MY LIFE with this inner pain and not having it heard or acknowledged.

Even I have disbelieved me and mininmised it and negated it and ignored it and suppressed it and denounced it and judged it and - oh god, the list goes on.

So - god, may I be strong enough to actually TELL and let known this pain.

The ex C RAN from it.

i am terrified the people in my new team will run from it too, but I sense they will not. Ex C was someone I felt was out of her depth from the first session 18 months ago. So there is a difference with these new people that I have brought together to assist me with this healing process.

I also find it REALLY scary that P thinks I will have this pain for life as I don't know how to live with it this strong. I want it lessened to some degree.

In buddhism they have a name for this sort of pain, it translates as 'the pain that carries a scar in the mind from life time to life time' adn they are not hopeful either about the possibility to heal it but I am still determined to do my best.

i say " I hurt big time' and some people say back " you have a big thing about being in big pain - you need to let that go' and yet the truth is that I am at last saying " i have a big huge pain in my mind and I need that to be known and seen and met and have someone there - and then it eases."

Anyway, I have given you all enough to think about AGAIN, and shall go and knock off for a while. and read your posts in more detail.

DF -you write

quote:

i'd like to ask your opinion on something - what pushes the client to utilize the newly created neural pathways to self-regulate? for example, what stops the phone call to a t and starts the regulating on your own - in a case where you may be finished therapy, for example. i think dependency is great and it is something i personally am trying to learn. my fear is addiction to the attention, and care - becoming codependent or losing myself in being regulated by another person. what does it take from a t so that you can leave the nest, or do you believe it is inherent in the process that the client will suddenly begin to test and utilize their new skills without prompting or sufficient opportunity? i'm curious! if a t offers unlimited outside contact/support how does the client ever try out what they've learned on their own?

when I FEEL care, I don;t WANT or NEED another - I am self contained in the PALPABLE feeling of care which is INSIDE ME. When it goes, I scream with pain again, - so what we are working towards is creating longer periods of knock on soothing, embodied and transmitted by the the T or P and held for longer periods by the client
AND THEN THE CLIENT IS CARRYING THEIR OWN CARE/SOOTHING FEELING, AND THERE IS NO NEED TO REACH OUT.

but first you have to dare to open up enough to let it in and in opening , you touch the pain - I touched the pain that I was deeply hiding.

STRM, you seem to be learning along side the way I am learning with this and that was and is reassuring for me to hear. We are proof that this caring and dependency stage works.

Just to astonish you all further, a friend gave me some small hearts made of some pewter that fit inside a pocket and told me she wants me to touch them and remember how much she loves me deeply and then she hugged me. I broke down and wept :I could FEEL her caring - I actually FELT it, it was like a revelation. She has known me for six years and she has said she cares about me many times but it just is WORDS to me, but this week I FELT it, it is resonating with the same space in me that P is nurturing into life.

Phew. Enough.

I'm kinda confused. Did you think I was misunderstanding you?

i'm sure you’ve noticed from other conversations, I'm all for some confrontation (lol!)

"I feel like I'm coming across as saying that dependence and soothing is bad from a t is bad and that's not what I'm saying at all."

And I didnt think this was what you were saying at all, sorry if it came across that way in my post!

I hear you DF and I hear about your very clear understanding of boundaries and I think it is helpful to say that.Thank you.

quote:

carefully writing about their t and their dependency stuff

Lol true, I was being a little carefully. But I also couldn’t just blurt out the first things that popped into my head though. There has to be a middle ground between being super careful and adding lots and caveats, and just blurting out whatever, don’t ya think?

Sadly,
I’m sorry you felt misunderstood, if you could clarify that would be great. Sorry, it seems like we’ve taken over your thread, and that gets confusing when you don’t exactly know what's directed at you, and what’s just a side conversation.

Df- No problem!

Actually once I read your posts I did not feel misunderstood, only felt the need to explain about the pain being pre verbal,
so I explained that, as I don;t think I had said that before.
I thought it might help people who don't understand about my need for reassurance etc just in these last few months.

I don't regret what I said, but I know it could be misinterpreted by some people. Anyone can PM me if needed.

Hi,

I'm coming in kind of late here and didn't finish the last couple of posts so if anything I'm saying seems irrelevant, just dismiss.

DF, what I'm getting from you is that you do have a FEAR of dependency. I believe those were your words. And it seems to me what you are fighting is the attachment part of therapy??? where you learn to attach, rely, depend and then become independent? Ultimately, to reach the state of being interdependent? You sound like how I feel sometimes. I just want to get fixed so I can leave therapy. If i could have done it myself, and I've certainly tried over the years, I would have. That's what I hear you saying???? You just want to get fixed and be done? I've been fighting and fighting the attachment part and I finally gave up. It feels good. Scary, but fighting it was worse.

Maybe that fear of needing is what's holding you back???? The feeling of needing is a killer for me.

So, maybe it's not so much that you disagree but that you have a blind spot there?? I'm just thinking for myself that I'm finally letting myself attach to my T and I think the progress and growth that I've been looking for is finally coming. But, I don't think it could have come until I attached to him. I do think the attachment had to come first. For me, anyway. All the books in the world couldn't have sorted this out for me. I am deriving more comfort and security from being attached to him than I've ever felt in my life. But I never had that security and I didn't know what it felt like. Until now. And, now that I know what it feels like, I also know what security doesn't feel like. And, hopefully I can avoid that in the future.

And BB, that part about trying to figure out the framework, wanting T to take the reins and figure it all out for you because it's so hard for you to figure out? That part reminds me of the quote Tn posted from AG's favorite book, about being in a museum in the dark, where almost anything is possible. And that a T will be able to help you sort it all out so that it will become clearer to you. That was a really powerful passage. But again, it goes back to the attachment for me. Because once I allowed myself to get attached, I have been more able to sort through what is coming from my own head verses all the projection I do that really screws me up.

I do think, at the end of the day, that we have to rely on them. That the self-image formed in childhood is very often distorted. And, so the T acts, I guess as a surrogate parent, to try to correct those images. We really can't do it by ourselves. But the reliance takes on a different form. It's not about them making decisions for us. It kind of reminds me of what I'm trying to do for my kids as I become more and more enlightened. Something bad happens in the world. They come to me and cry. I hug them and hold them tight and make them feel secure. We talk about what happened. Maybe I give them a little advice. And then they go out into the world again. And, hopefully, they will get stronger and stronger and be able to do it on their own. Sometimes, maybe someone was mean and they have to learn not to trust that person. Another time, maybe they were demanding and unreasonable. And they have to learn to be more grateful. And, as they sort this stuff out, they learn. And we have to relearn too, with someone who is hopefully not projecting their own fears onto us or fulfilling a need or is not so handicapped in some other way as to really screw us up even more.

DF,

I gotcha now. Every relationship has boundaries or should. Even a very close relationship, such as husband or wife or partner, has boundaries. The boundaries are going to be different, depending on the relationship. And, you are right. About the pain. When I bumped up against T a month ago, I realized, he wasn't hurting me, it was my pain. Coming from within. And that made me feel so powerful. Because if it's coming from me, I can learn to be in control of my pain. And, what I'm doing to cause that pain. Is that what you are saying???? I honestly thought the pain was coming from other people. And, it really is so empowering to learn it's coming from within.

It seems to me the dependency issues are really easy to confuse. And if we haven't learned that the pain comes from within, we will FEEL so dependent on others, dependent on them to take care or else they might hurt us. That, to me, is the bad kind of dependency. We need to learn when and if to move closer to people and feel secure when they move away from us, or assert a boundary, if you will. We need to learn that the boundary isn't about us, it's about them, what they are comfortable with. And, what we can get from that particular person based on their boundaries, if it's what we need. And, our boundaries with them as well and what they need from us and if it's something we want to give. And that will define our relationships. Some will be closer, some further away.

You sounded a bit stressed in your last post. Didn't mean to strike a nerve. Just trying to find common ground between the two sides. It might really just be a matter of understanding and where anyone of us is right now in the therapy process.

DF,

I think I understood you anyway. Please tell me if I have or haven't.

Thanks,

Liese

Every post in this thread seems to me to have great value in it - and I think the discussion goes right to the centre of what so many of us struggle with in therapy. Because the issue is SO core to our pain, it doesn't surprise me in the least that the feelings of misunderstanding and stress come up. But I want to say thanks to all for being so clear, specific and grounded in your points of view - I feel like when the dust settles a bit we might find this is one of those threads on psychcafe that is well worth referencing in the future.

S, given you are early in your therapy with Steady T, I think that giving her lots of information about how *much* pain and fear is kicked up by her refusals on these points will be really, really important. Hopefully you can work together and she can be your ally on how you negotiate the boundaries & dependency balance in these early stages. (I think you have an especially tricky situation in that you are already quite deeply *in* the process, though the relationship is new. I found when I switched Ts in the middle of stuff that it was particularly uncomfortable, because material was already out of the box, but I just didn't have any relationship with this new person - and the relationship-building could not be skipped).

I know as I've read this thread I've come to see more clearly a tension you've written about before - between the six-month-old style of relating (need of constant presence) and the eight-year-old style of relating (need of clear distinction between self/other). Both needs I think are real, part of you and can't be left behind. I can see how this puts you in some very conflicted situations. But I believe there is healing to be had. I hope your T is the very best possible.

J

HI Jones,

Can you recommend a good book to read about the needs at each stage or style of relating?

Hi Liese,

Not something I've read about in any depth - my comment was based on what S has written before - maybe she or one of the others can help.

J

Wow this thread has grown as I've been out all day doing the holiday stuff...

Just a few points...first UV that was a great post and you bring out some very good points about different dx's and how PA/PD therapy looks at them and at acting out in people with personality disorders. Good to see you posting again.

I'm sorry DF if you thought I was critizing the need for boundaries. I was discussing dependence needs vs. fear of being dependent on a T or T's who fear clients being dependent on them. I was attempting (probably badly) to convey to Sadly that all Ts have different boundaries... some allow calls or emails/texts, some don't, some allow touch, some don't, some are more available, some not. What is important is that you find the T whose style works best for what you need. I knew I could not work with a T who would not allow outside contact so I found one that would. That is not to say he does not have boundaries surrounding this ability to contact him. He has made very clear how the contact works and I am VERY sure that if I abuse it he will discuss it with me.

I was just trying to convey that dependence is necessary before you can learn to be interdependent... much the way a child learns this...It's really a developmental process. We absorb this ability implicitly. And DF you ask how this is done... well I think this is one of the "mysteries" of psychotherapy... how the brain becomes changed in relationship with a stronger, wiser other... a T who over time is totally consistent with us. It just happens. and I know this is a non-answer but I think even the experts are baffled about this to some degree. The consistent caring and being dependable, the T just being there when you need to return to your secure base for reassurance before venturing out into the world again. Eventually, we internalize that T, that feeling and we grow stronger and more sure of ourselves and we realize we CAN do this on our own and then we fly off into other lands.

As for AGs T... I believe she would tell us (and I wish she'd come back and join this discussion... really miss her here) that her T never did anything for her that he felt she could do for herself. I think a T has to walk a fine line between being there for you and also allowing you to grow and learn on your own. I can see this with my own child. I am here if he needs me but I also encourage him to try things on his own and when he does I smile and applaud him and cheer him on. He learns through attempting "surmountable" challenges that he CAN do it himself and this builds his self-confidence and self-esteem. Eventually, he will develop enough to leave the nest and go out on his own knowing that he has the tools to handle life.

And again, AGs T allowed contact but he was the boundary ninja. He kept both of them safe throughout the successful therapy and I remember he told AG that boundaries say a lot about the person who is drawing them. AG come and correct me if I am wrong in any of this.

STRM, great post. I think we see this the same way.

Sadly... sorry we hijacked your thread and if you want us to take this elsewhere please let us know. I do hope you found some of our discussion helpful and I thank you for your patience and understanding of where this lead. I'm so sorry for your pain and your trauma. I do hope you can talk to steadyT and work things out. You are doing amazingly well after what you have been through.

Liese, you make some good points and I'm so glad you are allowing the attachment and can feel it now. I hope your T continues to be receptive to it and that your work goes well and that you are able to grow from it. I think your T also has his boundaries in place so you should be fine.

I am the last one to endorse loose boundaries as that played at least a part in destroying my therapy with my oldT. I don't think it was his loose boundaries as much as it was his INCONSISTENT boundaries that did us in. He was always changing them and I never knew where I stood...was I pushing them, violating them, within them? It was so difficult for me. It was his problem more than mine and it tells a alot about him... it was HIS inability not mine. NewT assured me I did nothing wrong and it was oldT who could not work out the boundaries. The result was that I suffered greatly.

Mac I read your comments with interest as well but I have to ask... didn't it hurt you at all to hear your T say he would not miss you or notice at all if you just left him? Ouch. I would be a little put off by that. Glad you are not.

Jones I think you are right as this is a good thread that will probably referenced in the future.

TN

Thanks DF. Sorry I was not around earlier... had to do so much today and was away from the computer. I think we both feel the same way we just said it differently.

Hope you are doing okay.

Hugs to you,
TN

Lovely posts all - very thought provoking. UV, it's great to see you again.

quote:

I was just trying to convey that dependence is necessary before you can learn to be interdependent... much the way a child learns this...It's really a developmental process. We absorb this ability implicitly. And DF you ask how this is done... well I think this is one of the "mysteries" of psychotherapy... how the brain becomes changed in relationship with a stronger, wiser other... a T who over time is totally consistent with us. It just happens. and I know this is a non-answer but I think even the experts are baffled about this to some degree. The consistent caring and being dependable, the T just being there when you need to return to your secure base for reassurance before venturing out into the world again. Eventually, we internalize that T, that feeling and we grow stronger and more sure of ourselves and we realize we CAN do this on our own and then we fly off into other lands.

TN, this is beautifully put. I agree that the process is mysterious - we can never catch all of it. It's interesting to try to put one's finger on the concrete bits of this process, though. One of the things I find interesting about DF's point - and I don't think I quite got this before - is the implication that boundary setting is not incidental to the process of learning interdependence, but absolutely fundamental - one of those concrete components.

I think it's easy to hope that if one is a 'good enough' client one will never have to actually touch a boundary. We want to avoid them at any cost, because boy do they feel like electric wire. But dependence without boundaries is enmeshment, even engulfment. And independence without any boundary encounter is simply aloneness. That moment of touching the boundary - where the other says 'No', or 'Not like this' is the point where *I* discover in very concrete terms that the other actually has an existence independent of *me*. That my desires are centered within me, and are first and foremost my responsibility. Without that distinction I suspect we actually don't have a self at all, but float in a confusion of impulses - mine, others', 'ours' - that don't seem to have either any clear source or (because they can't be owned) any hope of fulfilment.

J

Goodness, we all seem to find this a really strong and intriguing topic' boundaries, attachment, dependency etc.
I am loving you all getting into this and discussing it and mulling it over. So helpful. Not a bit bothered about the amount of discussion going on and I feel honoured to have triggered it off in the first place. We seem to be learning a lot whilst we think it through.

I would like to clarify that I have not ever said that I want a T with no boundaries - shudder - that is what went wrong with the ex C she not only fuzzied her boundaries with me she also fuzzied her INTERNAL boundaries (eg she would blame ME for having had to spend an hour getting over reading something I had written and it spoilt her day!!)
So boundaries there were a mess.

I have a subtle point, one which I think may have been missed. I need simple kindness.
Look at my P _sweet man. I remebered the WRONG time for my session on Friday and he gave me a later time. He need not have done that. He could have said "you misrememebered and now I shall see you next Friday." And we would all nod sagely and say 'Yes, boundaries etc - good man." but he did not, He was KIND and he could tell how upset I was and he rescheduled. And you know what, I felt so GRATEFUL for him treating me like a human being, that I feel even MORE able to tell him things, even more trusting of him, even more able to disclose and I came away from that session with the 'warmth' of his presence towards me really INSIDE me - and it still is.

With STeadyT - I pick up:
1. reserve
2. caution
3. "i am the therapist"
4.going back on previous boundaries (her contract with me says: You may ring me between sessions for a short phonecall but if it goes over 15 minutes I shall charge £15 per 15 minutes.
then she verbally DROPS in two sessions ago that she does not want to do phone contact anymore as her schedule has changed. And advises me to ring Samaritans if I need to talk to someone.

The tea thing seems hugely significant as it seems to epitomise her way of working. Not very much ordinary human kindness. I am not railing about the tea, I am simply pointing out that I find it strange that we live in a remote part of England I have to drive nearly an hour over bleak moors in atrocious weather and then I go into shock and she asks me THREE times what would help as she says I am in no fit state to drive and she has a duty of care to ensure I am okay and I nervously say "Tea" and you had to be there - she said with such a smack in the face sort of manner "I don't give clients hot drinks". I wanted to say"well why did you ask?"

And also - I drove home in no fit state, with nothing to get me back to being okay.

And I am going to WORK with this woman??????

We are supposed to check out potential therapists and trust our instinct and I am seriously unnerved by several of her comments.

Of course I am going to say all this tomorrow, and see what she says, I just don't want to be messed around unnecessarily here. I don't want an inexperienced T, one who just plays with making firm boundaries for the hell of it, who is unable to keep commitments (phone contact) and who has already labelled me with two inaccurate labels, (thank god for P's insight on this.)

so I know people here think i am a boundary breaker, and that is how ex C saw me and once you are seen like that, any attempt to talk about one's difficult with a boundary is seen as ' oh that woman does not like boundaries, she is complaining again" insteady of' maybe she has a point here."

Wow - does this thread bring up STUFF!!!

I think DF mentioned her mum and I wondered if my events, threads etc remind her of her mum - which could be a reason for such a lot of feeling coming up, but I am not her mum, I might sound like it to DF, but I am tentatively checking out a new T here, after a desastrous experience with the ex C and I am nervous and I am jittery and I am really don't want another T to hurt me again like the ex D did. TN - you can empathise with all this.

I have no qualms what so ever about saying this all to SteadyT and then coming back here and relating what I said and what she said, - As far as I see it I have two options with her
1. stop working with her and find a T who allows urgent phone or email contact.
2. continue working with her and try and set up SOMEONE else for phone and email contact.
Which seems a bit daft to me.

Also I am not sure I feel comfortable anymore with SteadyT. but again that is no reason to leave, it IS a thing to bring up in therapy -
anyway, I have a busy day to day so hardly time to think all this through before I see her tomorrow afternoon snow permitting.

Sadly,

It seems to me that you know in your gut that this T is not a good fit for you. It sounds as though you would work better with someone more flexible and accomodating....someone with more warmth in their approach with clients. I think you should find a new therapist, but ultimately that decision has to be made wholeheartedly on your part.

Good luck.

quote:

Even T's with generous contact policies have boundaries, and it's still going to hurt just as bad when those boundaries are discovered and enforced - they aren't escapable.

DF,

Forgive me as I'm replying to this without reading the rest of the replies yet...long night. Anyway, yes you are right and I totally agree. I think we actually do agree on this and are saying the same thing, but wording it differently. My T has a generous contact policy but she certainly has boundaries and many of them. I agree that they need to be there and while it isn't fun to run into them it is a necessary part of the process. My point all along in this situation with S was that her T's boundaries are just that. Her T's boundaries and her T has every right to have them the way she chooses them to be. That isn't the problem. The issue is whether or not S can live within those boundaries. No matter which T she ends up working with (my apologies for talking about you as well S and not to you), there are still going to be boundaries. I don't think any of us are advocating having a T with no boundaries at all.

(((DF))) I did feel like you were being supportive. I just misunderstood your original post a bit and I'm sorry for that.

TN-

quote:

didn't it hurt you at all to hear your T say he would not miss you or notice at all if you just left him? Ouch. I would be a little put off by that. Glad you are not.

Honestly no, I 100% understand and appreciate it… I guess it does sound harsh out of the therapy room but he’s said things like that before, so it’s not like it was out of the blew or I didn’t already know that that’s his philosophy. He’s said that he cares about me right here (meaning in therapy) but he will not think about me outside of session & supervision. So ya, I knew where he was coming from.

Oh and I just re-read your quote and he didnt say that he wouldnt notice, he would definetly notice, he just wouldnt be bothered or be personally hurt or anything...

I dont know if I'm making sense but i dont know how else to explain it out of context!