I'm listening Liese.
I have very little to say because I am going through something similar with my T about touch and how we work together. I don't think I'm brave enough to get angry at T yet though. I'm considering just quitting because I understand and respect his reasons for not involving touch but I am still angry and hurt about it.
I can relate to wanting to be the good girl and being willing to hide what is inside in order to be accepted. I am glad you are willing to be true to how you feel whatever happens. Will you be talking to the consult T again?
thinking of you
Liese, Did he say he was hurt because you looked him up on the internet or because you consulted with another T.? Does he know you did the consult?
quote:He told me that he's always been intensely private about his family and that he was disappointed in me that I looked knowing how he felt.
I'm sorry, Liese, that you are crashing. I know how awful that feels. I had one of those hurt angry sessions with current T when I confronted him about his wife being in the office next door. I sat on the floor and sobbed and got angry and then feared for my life (my therapy life anyway). I was terrified to go back but it all worked out and T was not angry and we got through it and were stronger for it.
What concerns me is the quote above. Did your T talk about WHY you felt the need to search? or how it made you feel and ask what you felt you needed? And about those expectations... I think you both need to talk about what you think you need and how he can never really supply that... what you didn't get as a child. They can come close and do some of it but it's never really the same as when you were 5 years old or even an infant. That is the hard work and the grief. I do think you have gotten in touch with your anger which IS good but I wonder how much of it it really about your T and not your parents?
Hang in there
TN
Good point. My T. and I talk about that a lot. Now, we are working for her to teach me how to take care of me (little one inside). I fight that one all the time because I want it to be T., not me and I have a hard time grieving what I didn't get.
(((Liese))) You're not talking to the air. I've been here reading and listening and sending prayers and such throughout this thread, and for others on the forum as well. Just having a hard time posting lately. But wanted to let you know I'm here and thinking of you and believe you're doing important work right now. It is like being suddenly a (more) real person when we let those emotions into the room. 
Cogs, I will be talking to consult T in just over 2 hours. She is a blessing.
Rebuilding Me. He was upset with me for googling. I've gone on tons of consults during my time with him and he's knows about them all. I used to hide them but now I'm very upfront about it all.
TN, No we didn't talk about any of that really. I think all along I've been disappointed in how my therapy was going, often found it boring except that I enjoyed seeing T, often sat around waiting for something to happen. I liked him so much that I continued to go even though I doubted his abilities and sometimes believe his success as a therapist is just because he is so likable and a good listener and has good instincts as opposed to any special skills he has. Although I suppose those are good skills. LOL!
It's so hard to gauge. The tenor of the session was that we are at a crossroads. He's burnt. He's given all that he can give. I don't think he's interested in consulting with consult T. He said he has seen a lot of progress except in this area, the attachment area. I just keep wanting more and more and he's at his limit. (haha, if he read any of the literature, it talks about the insatiable needs of people like me and if you keep giving, we will keep wanting more and they will come to resent it - so they shouldn't give more. Along these lines, I realized that I have been disappointed in him, that he took me on as a client and told me repeatedly I wasn't too big a project for him but when I turned out to be too big a project for him, he relied on me to educate him. I think that's a large part of the problem, that he's relying on me for the attachment info and when it doesn't work, he gets frustrated with me because I am the source. I want a therapist who, if they took me on, would be motivated to learn what they needed in order to do that. He has a different life and different needs.)
He talked about him being a blank slate and all my fears being projections but I don't think he knows what to do with my projections. Well he does know what he wants to do with them and says that's the work of therapy. I think the way I want to work on them and the way he wants to work on them are two different things. He wants me to see how irrational they are and I want to "see" more of him so I can really know who he is and not just have to TRUST him blindly.
Guys, thanks so much for being there and listening. It's been a difficult day. I am not easy to work with because there is so much that is NONVERBAL. I can be frustrated for years yet not say anything.
My T told me first why he was frustrated with me. I listened. What could I really say? He feels the way he feels. I'm not going to invalidate him. When he was finished, I then asked him what he wanted me to address and he said anything. So, I explained that once, a couple of years back, I told him that when he showed up with a wedding ring that I was going to be devastated. I told him that I meant it then but that I feared that he was going to just ignore it and show up one day with a wedding ring or maybe tell me the week before, when he felt he was ready to share.
I also said that I used to block out everyone else in his life because I couldn't cope with the fact that he had lots of other people in his life. I said that since his vacation last summer, that I had really been asking to know about his life so I could process it and still feel good about myself and our relationship.
I also said that I couldn't understand why he was so private. He would never tell me and so I draw negative conclusions, that he thinks he is better than me, etc., etc. He doesn't ever respond to that stuff except to say they are projections. So I told him I got pissed, like why is he hiding this stuff? What's the big deal?
When I told him that I googled his family, I commented that his daughter was beautiful but more than that, looked like a nice person and I was happy for him. So today, I told him that I didn't give a shit about his family and then I said, well that didn't come out right. But, that I really didn't. And I pulled up my oldests facebook page and explained that I wasn't allowed to be her friend so I could only see what I could see. And, I told him that I thought she was beautiful and terrific. And he said, "you have a beautiful family."
So, I think we both want the same thing. We want me to work through my projections, I guess. I wanted to grieve him, really. So maybe we both didn't want the same thing. Or ultimately, it was the same thing. We just had different ideas about how to go about it and once again, were both working parallel to each other. It's like he wants me to work through it but at arms length and arms length is what triggers my issues. I'm pushing in one direction and he's pushing in another. Ugggggghhhhhhhh. Why does it have to be so complicated?
As I said before, he didn't terminate me and, IDK, in a strange way, his "no love - tough love" stance today helped me in the way that I wanted it to but now I feel like I got on his every last nerve and how COULD I go back? I don't even think he likes me much less loves me.
Rebuilding Me. He was upset with me for googling. I've gone on tons of consults during my time with him and he's knows about them all. I used to hide them but now I'm very upfront about it all.
TN, No we didn't talk about any of that really. I think all along I've been disappointed in how my therapy was going, often found it boring except that I enjoyed seeing T, often sat around waiting for something to happen. I liked him so much that I continued to go even though I doubted his abilities and sometimes believe his success as a therapist is just because he is so likable and a good listener and has good instincts as opposed to any special skills he has. Although I suppose those are good skills. LOL!
It's so hard to gauge. The tenor of the session was that we are at a crossroads. He's burnt. He's given all that he can give. I don't think he's interested in consulting with consult T. He said he has seen a lot of progress except in this area, the attachment area. I just keep wanting more and more and he's at his limit. (haha, if he read any of the literature, it talks about the insatiable needs of people like me and if you keep giving, we will keep wanting more and they will come to resent it - so they shouldn't give more. Along these lines, I realized that I have been disappointed in him, that he took me on as a client and told me repeatedly I wasn't too big a project for him but when I turned out to be too big a project for him, he relied on me to educate him. I think that's a large part of the problem, that he's relying on me for the attachment info and when it doesn't work, he gets frustrated with me because I am the source. I want a therapist who, if they took me on, would be motivated to learn what they needed in order to do that. He has a different life and different needs.)
He talked about him being a blank slate and all my fears being projections but I don't think he knows what to do with my projections. Well he does know what he wants to do with them and says that's the work of therapy. I think the way I want to work on them and the way he wants to work on them are two different things. He wants me to see how irrational they are and I want to "see" more of him so I can really know who he is and not just have to TRUST him blindly.
Guys, thanks so much for being there and listening. It's been a difficult day. I am not easy to work with because there is so much that is NONVERBAL. I can be frustrated for years yet not say anything.
My T told me first why he was frustrated with me. I listened. What could I really say? He feels the way he feels. I'm not going to invalidate him. When he was finished, I then asked him what he wanted me to address and he said anything. So, I explained that once, a couple of years back, I told him that when he showed up with a wedding ring that I was going to be devastated. I told him that I meant it then but that I feared that he was going to just ignore it and show up one day with a wedding ring or maybe tell me the week before, when he felt he was ready to share.
I also said that I used to block out everyone else in his life because I couldn't cope with the fact that he had lots of other people in his life. I said that since his vacation last summer, that I had really been asking to know about his life so I could process it and still feel good about myself and our relationship.
I also said that I couldn't understand why he was so private. He would never tell me and so I draw negative conclusions, that he thinks he is better than me, etc., etc. He doesn't ever respond to that stuff except to say they are projections. So I told him I got pissed, like why is he hiding this stuff? What's the big deal?
When I told him that I googled his family, I commented that his daughter was beautiful but more than that, looked like a nice person and I was happy for him. So today, I told him that I didn't give a shit about his family and then I said, well that didn't come out right. But, that I really didn't. And I pulled up my oldests facebook page and explained that I wasn't allowed to be her friend so I could only see what I could see. And, I told him that I thought she was beautiful and terrific. And he said, "you have a beautiful family."
So, I think we both want the same thing. We want me to work through my projections, I guess. I wanted to grieve him, really. So maybe we both didn't want the same thing. Or ultimately, it was the same thing. We just had different ideas about how to go about it and once again, were both working parallel to each other. It's like he wants me to work through it but at arms length and arms length is what triggers my issues. I'm pushing in one direction and he's pushing in another. Ugggggghhhhhhhh. Why does it have to be so complicated?
As I said before, he didn't terminate me and, IDK, in a strange way, his "no love - tough love" stance today helped me in the way that I wanted it to but now I feel like I got on his every last nerve and how COULD I go back? I don't even think he likes me much less loves me.
((((RM))))((((YAKU))))
Thanks for the support. It's so hard to hang onto my point of view. I KNOW I'm in therapy to change. In my opinion, it's his job to figure out how to do it. If he's not seeing progress in the attachment area, then he should figure out how to make progress. Why the hell is he listening to me?
I hated hearing that he didn't see any progress as if I don't want to make progress. Maybe it took me to get this frustrated with him but because I can't express anger and frustration and in a projective identification kind of way, brought it out through him so that he got angry with me. Does that make any sense whatsoever?
Because I feel powerless to bring about the changes I want, I somehow bring the other person to do it?
Ugggghhhhh, why does life have to be so complicated!
Thanks for the support. It's so hard to hang onto my point of view. I KNOW I'm in therapy to change. In my opinion, it's his job to figure out how to do it. If he's not seeing progress in the attachment area, then he should figure out how to make progress. Why the hell is he listening to me?
I hated hearing that he didn't see any progress as if I don't want to make progress. Maybe it took me to get this frustrated with him but because I can't express anger and frustration and in a projective identification kind of way, brought it out through him so that he got angry with me. Does that make any sense whatsoever?
Because I feel powerless to bring about the changes I want, I somehow bring the other person to do it?
Ugggghhhhh, why does life have to be so complicated!
He also did say something like, I think in reference to the facebook discussion, that he didn't think it was that I was dangerous. And I'm like WTF? I get it. I get why he would say that. But it's exactly that attitude that makes me sick.
I wonder if he would be as private if he had been say, an engineer?
I wonder if he would be as private if he had been say, an engineer?
Talked with consult. At first she said that I should stop seeing him and find a trauma therapist but when she heard all the good work we have done, she thinks that we might be able to do more work together.
She also thinks and I agree that our relationship started declining again when he gave me his email address. And that I should talk to him about not emailing at all and see if that helps repair our relationship. Of course, the first thing I want to do is to email him and tell him. Uggfhhhhhhj.
She also thinks and I agree that our relationship started declining again when he gave me his email address. And that I should talk to him about not emailing at all and see if that helps repair our relationship. Of course, the first thing I want to do is to email him and tell him. Uggfhhhhhhj.
quote:I think that's a large part of the problem, that he's relying on me for the attachment info and when it doesn't work, he gets frustrated with me because I am the source. I want a therapist who, if they took me on, would be motivated to learn what they needed in order to do that. He has a different life and different needs.)
Liese I tried this with oldT... educating him about attachment. It does not work. You cannot be on both sides of the room. It's not your job. My T just mentioned to me today that CBT therapists (for the most part) choose that modality because they do not want to work in the relationship/transference/attachment. They may not do this consciously.
If you decide to go out and look... don't look for a T motivated to learn about attachment... look for one who has experience already in working through attachment wounds and is more psychodynamically trained and who won't fear the attachment, can handle transference and understands how the relationship works between T and client.
I think it's pretty amazing that you tracked down the author of that book and managed to have her consult with you. I never even thought of doing that when I was so traumatized.
Hugs
TN
(((Liese)))
For me a lot of this sounds quite similar to what I went through with Manatee. The outcome may not be the same, but there are some similarities. It was very messy and confusing at the time and there was lots of leaving then not leaving then leaving. But I remember one of the subsequent Ts I saw saying something that really rang to the heart of it. It wasn't even about him. She said something in session that disappointed me - she didn't want to go further into my grief about Manatee, or she didn't want to discuss a dream or something - I didn't say anything but I think she felt my disappointment. And then at the end of the session as I was leaving she said 'I can only be myself'.
Maybe the reenactment part of it is where we know what their limits are as far as their personality and their willingness to change, and we know we have other desires, but we keep trying to put the star-shaped block through the square hole. That was what I had not wanted to recognise about Manatee. He was clearly telling me who he was, and we both knew I wanted something different. There was a dance while we figured out what the gap was and whether we could bridge it by efforts on one side or another or both. But my needs remained, his personality remained, and I had to go on my own journey to honour my needs.
It's hard. The attachment was already there and was real. It was like I had to take over temporary parenting of my smallest parts so I could get them to a better place, one where I could truly get help from another to look after them and take care of the deepest needs.
For me a lot of this sounds quite similar to what I went through with Manatee. The outcome may not be the same, but there are some similarities. It was very messy and confusing at the time and there was lots of leaving then not leaving then leaving. But I remember one of the subsequent Ts I saw saying something that really rang to the heart of it. It wasn't even about him. She said something in session that disappointed me - she didn't want to go further into my grief about Manatee, or she didn't want to discuss a dream or something - I didn't say anything but I think she felt my disappointment. And then at the end of the session as I was leaving she said 'I can only be myself'.
Maybe the reenactment part of it is where we know what their limits are as far as their personality and their willingness to change, and we know we have other desires, but we keep trying to put the star-shaped block through the square hole. That was what I had not wanted to recognise about Manatee. He was clearly telling me who he was, and we both knew I wanted something different. There was a dance while we figured out what the gap was and whether we could bridge it by efforts on one side or another or both. But my needs remained, his personality remained, and I had to go on my own journey to honour my needs.
It's hard. The attachment was already there and was real. It was like I had to take over temporary parenting of my smallest parts so I could get them to a better place, one where I could truly get help from another to look after them and take care of the deepest needs.
quote:Maybe the reenactment part of it is where we know what their limits are as far as their personality and their willingness to change, and we know we have other desires, but we keep trying to put the star-shaped block through the square hole. That was what I had not wanted to recognise about Manatee. He was clearly telling me who he was, and we both knew I wanted something different. There was a dance while we figured out what the gap was and whether we could bridge it by efforts on one side or another or both. But my needs remained, his personality remained, and I had to go on my own journey to honour my needs.
Wise words, Jones and well put. I think what makes my current T relationship successful is that his personality and psychodynamic orientation meets my needs. Our personalities just work together. We still have our disruptions but we are both moving in same direction and I can focus on me and not on trying to change him to fit into what I need from a T. He just IS what I need. And that is so valuable. I need to appreciate him more.
I hope your small parts are now in that better place where their needs are being met.
TN
I am here too Liese listening to you, altho I don't post much any more due to lots of reasons.
I haven't read it all in depth, because reading about your T and topics about ruptures, terminations is painful to me. Everyone has said some good things, the consult T sounds terrific and you are handling this really, really well. Your T is struggling badly and is way beyond his narrow comfort zone but he is still trying.
My T and I discuss who I would go to if something should happen to her. With all my complex issues - T says I need a T who is better and experienced with long term attachment work. I have complex issues and some are at the really severe end, but my T said the main thing is a flexible T who can handle all that goes with a long term attachment relationship. If a T is good with that then the other work will follow. I find it interesting that T thinks this is the critical requirement. SO I agree with what TN said.
We need to remember that this struggle you (and we) have with our T relationships mostly often (in my opinion) mirrors what we struggle with now or past in real life. There will always be similarities to what is happening with you and T to what has happened to you and what you struggle with. All this horrible stuff you are going through - it is practice for a real life person... That doesn't make this easier.
One of the things reminded me that I too can see the emotion of T - anger, frustration, hurt, whatever it is - I can see it and I do dig until I find it. Sometimes T has no idea she is feeling it and even when she denies it - I feel that i am not satisfied that she hasn't owned up to it. It is about making sense of what we are seeing, why we see it and that the other person understands us and our position. We have to have discussions about it.
Your T is such a stiff brick (ie unemotional) - you would be challenging all of him. It is good that you went through the positives because you do have a great relationship, altho it doesn't feel like this right now.
I just keep thinking that what you are going through is what the struggle of our type of therapy is.
I love that you threw your phone at him.
Keep writing, keep thinking and feeling and keep trying to make sense of it. It will get better.
SD
I haven't read it all in depth, because reading about your T and topics about ruptures, terminations is painful to me. Everyone has said some good things, the consult T sounds terrific and you are handling this really, really well. Your T is struggling badly and is way beyond his narrow comfort zone but he is still trying.
My T and I discuss who I would go to if something should happen to her. With all my complex issues - T says I need a T who is better and experienced with long term attachment work. I have complex issues and some are at the really severe end, but my T said the main thing is a flexible T who can handle all that goes with a long term attachment relationship. If a T is good with that then the other work will follow. I find it interesting that T thinks this is the critical requirement. SO I agree with what TN said.
We need to remember that this struggle you (and we) have with our T relationships mostly often (in my opinion) mirrors what we struggle with now or past in real life. There will always be similarities to what is happening with you and T to what has happened to you and what you struggle with. All this horrible stuff you are going through - it is practice for a real life person... That doesn't make this easier.
One of the things reminded me that I too can see the emotion of T - anger, frustration, hurt, whatever it is - I can see it and I do dig until I find it. Sometimes T has no idea she is feeling it and even when she denies it - I feel that i am not satisfied that she hasn't owned up to it. It is about making sense of what we are seeing, why we see it and that the other person understands us and our position. We have to have discussions about it.
Your T is such a stiff brick (ie unemotional) - you would be challenging all of him. It is good that you went through the positives because you do have a great relationship, altho it doesn't feel like this right now.
I just keep thinking that what you are going through is what the struggle of our type of therapy is.
I love that you threw your phone at him.
Keep writing, keep thinking and feeling and keep trying to make sense of it. It will get better.
SD
I'm with you too, Liese. This is such a struggle, I know, but you have been amazingly strong and you will find your way through this.
Thinking of you.
Thinking of you.
((((TN))))
How many times did you tell me that and I just didn't want to listen? I guess I couldn't listen until I was ready. I go back and forth in my mind about Monday. Sue seems to think he really cares and even though he's burnt out, it doesn't mean he doesn't care. She said he has a point, that no matter what he does, it's never enough.
I just don't know if I really believe that he still cares. He said he wasn't angry today but he sounded really angry. I do really think I pushed him over the edge. The whole FB thing may not seem like a big deal to you or me but it was to him.
He says often that I'm trying to control him. Sue doesn't think I'm trying to control him, just trying to help him help me but he feels like I'm trying to control him. She said that she has found that VERY PRIVATE people are VERY PRIVATE because they fear being controlled. That helped me feel a bit better.
((((JONES))))
I think you hit the nail on the head with putting the star in the square hole. I think my T tried to change for me but really hit his limit. The FB thing pushed him over the edge. He stretched himself as far as he can go. I don't think he would ever let his guard down with me again and how comfortable would I feel then?
It's sad, though, isn't it? I always feel bad when relationships don't work out. I also have to recognize that, even if he was able to get past it all enough, he will still be who he is and I will still be who I am and it's likely that our new arms length arrangement will pick at my wounds. Maybe not but probably.
It's really a shame, I think, because I had the thought that this is what relationships were supposed to be all about. Surviving anger. Surviving disappointment. Surviving doing something "bad". He has sworn in the past that he has never been angry with me and never will be. Today he said he wasn't but he sure sounded angry. I felt like I was with a real person today and that was really gratifying. Wouldn't it be nice if the relationship could survive that?
There is a part of me, though, that is doing a happy dance to be done. I won't ever stop liking him. He's got a very likable personality. It's kind of like going on a diet surrounded by ice cream. Why would I do that to myself? It was too hard for me to walk away so maybe he did me a favor.
Thanks everyone for being so supportive. It was incredibly helpful and much appreciated. I have an apt. with Sue on Monday at 4 so regardless of whether I go in to see T or talk on the phone or not talk, I will have support. I also have an apt. with my trauma T next week so I will have that support there.
I can't say enough about Sue. This is her specialty and she's very good at it.
How many times did you tell me that and I just didn't want to listen? I guess I couldn't listen until I was ready. I go back and forth in my mind about Monday. Sue seems to think he really cares and even though he's burnt out, it doesn't mean he doesn't care. She said he has a point, that no matter what he does, it's never enough.
I just don't know if I really believe that he still cares. He said he wasn't angry today but he sounded really angry. I do really think I pushed him over the edge. The whole FB thing may not seem like a big deal to you or me but it was to him.
He says often that I'm trying to control him. Sue doesn't think I'm trying to control him, just trying to help him help me but he feels like I'm trying to control him. She said that she has found that VERY PRIVATE people are VERY PRIVATE because they fear being controlled. That helped me feel a bit better.
((((JONES))))
I think you hit the nail on the head with putting the star in the square hole. I think my T tried to change for me but really hit his limit. The FB thing pushed him over the edge. He stretched himself as far as he can go. I don't think he would ever let his guard down with me again and how comfortable would I feel then?
It's sad, though, isn't it? I always feel bad when relationships don't work out. I also have to recognize that, even if he was able to get past it all enough, he will still be who he is and I will still be who I am and it's likely that our new arms length arrangement will pick at my wounds. Maybe not but probably.
It's really a shame, I think, because I had the thought that this is what relationships were supposed to be all about. Surviving anger. Surviving disappointment. Surviving doing something "bad". He has sworn in the past that he has never been angry with me and never will be. Today he said he wasn't but he sure sounded angry. I felt like I was with a real person today and that was really gratifying. Wouldn't it be nice if the relationship could survive that?
There is a part of me, though, that is doing a happy dance to be done. I won't ever stop liking him. He's got a very likable personality. It's kind of like going on a diet surrounded by ice cream. Why would I do that to myself? It was too hard for me to walk away so maybe he did me a favor.
Thanks everyone for being so supportive. It was incredibly helpful and much appreciated. I have an apt. with Sue on Monday at 4 so regardless of whether I go in to see T or talk on the phone or not talk, I will have support. I also have an apt. with my trauma T next week so I will have that support there.
I can't say enough about Sue. This is her specialty and she's very good at it.
(((SD))) and (((QUELL)))
Thanks for the support. It's hard to feel good about myself when I know how upset T is with me. But maybe he is unrealistic and naive a bit.
It's hard NOT to be mad that he makes this his profession being incredibly avoidant and that's exactly what screws with lots of people anxieties and longings. It seems unconscionable somehow. At least to me now since I feel bad.
Thanks for the support. It's hard to feel good about myself when I know how upset T is with me. But maybe he is unrealistic and naive a bit.
It's hard NOT to be mad that he makes this his profession being incredibly avoidant and that's exactly what screws with lots of people anxieties and longings. It seems unconscionable somehow. At least to me now since I feel bad.
Liese, I think sometimes it is possible to survive these things, but that doesn't mean we have to stay or even want to stay in every way. You and T HAVE survived a lot and repaired a lot and even now, facing the possibility of moving on, you can still see how much you like him. That is a form of the relationship surviving.
But another part of it is that you are paying for therapy, you are paying money and spending important years of your life emotionally invested in growth through this sort of relationship. I got to the point where I didn't want to do that with someone who was actually not more proficient than me in the areas I wanted to work in. I really wanted someone I could learn from.
But another part of it is that you are paying for therapy, you are paying money and spending important years of your life emotionally invested in growth through this sort of relationship. I got to the point where I didn't want to do that with someone who was actually not more proficient than me in the areas I wanted to work in. I really wanted someone I could learn from.
Yes, Jones, very good points. It's actually very sad because he really did try and really stretched himself but in the end, it didn't seem to help or at least he doesn't see that it did. And then he got hurt by me. That's sad, isn't it?
On the other hand, even though I pushed him over the edge, I have processed some really important pain over the past few months and that's directly related to my relationship with him. I wish he could see that.
It would feel good to walk away.
This profession saved my life but it's a really sucky profession. I'm grateful for it but hate it at the same time.
On the other hand, even though I pushed him over the edge, I have processed some really important pain over the past few months and that's directly related to my relationship with him. I wish he could see that.
It would feel good to walk away.
This profession saved my life but it's a really sucky profession. I'm grateful for it but hate it at the same time.
Well, loss very often is sad, but it's not the end of the story just yet, is it? There is still time, if you want it, to figure out whether the work you have done has helped (it sounds like it very much has) and to share that with him, and for the two of you to process whatever there is to process about him apparently feeling hurt. Don't forget he is resilient and is growing in his own ways, just as you are. Just because he may feel hurt right now doesn't mean that that's the end of the journey - even if you do move on.
Liese, I am just cheering you on I guess to figure out how to get through this difficult spot. What you are saying about your T's limitations is really hitting home for me because of what I am seeing in school. I am finding out that students interested in attachment theory are really a minority. I have heard a lot of students saying stuff like "I would NEVER touch my clients" and "I would NEVER give away my home phone number," or being uncomfortable with the idea of long term therapy, and I think these are the same ones that are attracted to cognitive/behavioral approaches. I think these classmates of mine are going to turn into T's like yours...T's who are good for helping people sort out a few concrete problems but totally useless from a longer term perspective. OK, I'm not saying your T has been totally useless, but he's certainly been dragging his feet. But I there is an attachment-oriented T out there somewhere who would love to have you as a client. Just saying.
Liese
You are doing some really hard work, listening to T, speaking your truth, getting help from consult T, talking about such difficult conflicting feelings. Take gentle care of yourself.
You are doing some really hard work, listening to T, speaking your truth, getting help from consult T, talking about such difficult conflicting feelings. Take gentle care of yourself.
Thanks everyone. It's getting a bit hard but .... That's life.
Amazing work Liese, simply amazing.
(((RM)))
Thanks. He sent me an email today to see if I was okay, that he knows the session was very difficult and he wanted to let me know he does care.
Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. I want to run into his arms and say, "oh Daddy .... you do love me"
F*ck, F*ck, F*ck It hurts.
I wrote back and told him that I do know he cares and that message has reached me on some level. I said that I was in a lot of pain but that the session was real and that I like real. That I've lived with too much unreal in my life. I also said that our relationship really deteriorated when we started emailing. However, that it was through the emailing that I was able to "show" him just how out of control I get.
I told him to enjoy the weather. He wrote back and said that I didn't have to apologize, that he was in it right there with me. He also told me to enjoy the weather.
Neither one of us said anything about Monday. I kept my apt when I left but said that I'd probably do a phone session and if I didn't come back at all, he could keep the puzzle we completed, the puzzle we were working on and the book I lent him, that I would be insulted if he mailed them back to me. I told him to throw them out or pass them on or use them. Whatever he wanted.
So, I don't know what to do about Monday. I guess I have time to decide.
Thanks. He sent me an email today to see if I was okay, that he knows the session was very difficult and he wanted to let me know he does care.
Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. I want to run into his arms and say, "oh Daddy .... you do love me"
F*ck, F*ck, F*ck It hurts.
I wrote back and told him that I do know he cares and that message has reached me on some level. I said that I was in a lot of pain but that the session was real and that I like real. That I've lived with too much unreal in my life. I also said that our relationship really deteriorated when we started emailing. However, that it was through the emailing that I was able to "show" him just how out of control I get.
I told him to enjoy the weather. He wrote back and said that I didn't have to apologize, that he was in it right there with me. He also told me to enjoy the weather.
Neither one of us said anything about Monday. I kept my apt when I left but said that I'd probably do a phone session and if I didn't come back at all, he could keep the puzzle we completed, the puzzle we were working on and the book I lent him, that I would be insulted if he mailed them back to me. I told him to throw them out or pass them on or use them. Whatever he wanted.
So, I don't know what to do about Monday. I guess I have time to decide.
I've been following but not commenting. Lots of hard stuff and my heart goes out to you. I'm really proud of you for writing/processing so much of it here. Big hugs. (((( Liese)))
-RT
-RT
Thanks Red
Does he care in the "I care that you are in so much pain because we are terminating?"or I care and we should keep talking to see if we can resolve
Our differences? And how do I tell the difference?
Does he care in the "I care that you are in so much pain because we are terminating?"or I care and we should keep talking to see if we can resolve
Our differences? And how do I tell the difference?
((((BLT))))(((COGS))))
Thanks for the support and I am sorry I missed thanking you both before. I was a work and had very little time at the computer today.
BLT, I'm sorry that's what you have to deal with. Any chance you can change programs? It sounds awful to have to deal with that all the time. I'm glad you and T have been talking.
Thanks for the support and I am sorry I missed thanking you both before. I was a work and had very little time at the computer today.
BLT, I'm sorry that's what you have to deal with. Any chance you can change programs? It sounds awful to have to deal with that all the time. I'm glad you and T have been talking.
((Liese)) I'm so sorry this relationship is so painful. I wish it didn't have to be this way with your T, who you've made much progress with. I just got back from a week away, so I haven't been able to read everything, but I know from what I've read that you're hurting. I'm sorry for that. I hope Monday goes as smoothly as can be and you maybe can get some clarity
(((ERICA)))
Thanks for the hugs. Sue, the consult, has been amazing. We have a session scheduled for after my session on Monday. We had one last night and she emailed me several times today with psychodynamic referrals and support. I couldn't ask for anyone nicer.
I did get a bit out of control with the focus on my needs and not to make excuses but the whole therapy relationship is so focused on my needs and I'm supposed to focus on my needs and T's needs aren't supposed to be in the room. But he is a human being and NOT an object. It seems unrealistic to think that their needs won't enter the room.
In response to my email, in which I detailed all the good stuff we have done, here is his latest email:
I feel good about our work too! You have come a long long way lol.
I appreciate the introspection ur doing now (as always) and believe it will be beneficial.
OK, thx again for sharing all those feelings and insights... It is good to know.
Have a good weekend and talk to u Monday.
Thanks for the hugs. Sue, the consult, has been amazing. We have a session scheduled for after my session on Monday. We had one last night and she emailed me several times today with psychodynamic referrals and support. I couldn't ask for anyone nicer.
I did get a bit out of control with the focus on my needs and not to make excuses but the whole therapy relationship is so focused on my needs and I'm supposed to focus on my needs and T's needs aren't supposed to be in the room. But he is a human being and NOT an object. It seems unrealistic to think that their needs won't enter the room.
In response to my email, in which I detailed all the good stuff we have done, here is his latest email:
I feel good about our work too! You have come a long long way lol.
I appreciate the introspection ur doing now (as always) and believe it will be beneficial.
OK, thx again for sharing all those feelings and insights... It is good to know.
Have a good weekend and talk to u Monday.
I suspect he cares in both the ways you ask about and in a myriad of other ways. I am glad you have consult T to help you process and give you other options. What about the trauma T you have been seeing?
I have been feeling that it is so unfair and surprising that now that I am absolutely sure that T cares about me and I am finding that it isn't enough. I spent so much time thinking that if only T cared or I could believe he cared then therapy could work but that isn't enough. Do you feel that way too? that him caring isn't in question but it doesn't mean that you should continue working with him.
You have time to decide about Monday so don't rush into any decision.
I have been feeling that it is so unfair and surprising that now that I am absolutely sure that T cares about me and I am finding that it isn't enough. I spent so much time thinking that if only T cared or I could believe he cared then therapy could work but that isn't enough. Do you feel that way too? that him caring isn't in question but it doesn't mean that you should continue working with him.
You have time to decide about Monday so don't rush into any decision.
Cogs
I have an apt with trauma T next week. I didn't want to consult about this this week for 2 reasons. I don't want to turn either one of them against the other. And also, this is consult Ts specialty. She is a therapist but also, as a client, had her own abrupt terminations as she was on her way to becoming a therapist. So she's been on both side (as had trauma T actually) but I like that this is her specialty.
Yes I often feel the way you do. I am a little uncertain now as to whether or not T is sick of me but generally I do know he is there and feel kind of like, what now? I guess it then becomes more about us? Setting goals that kind of thing and dealing with flashbacks as we do that? Learning how to manage our emotions and separations. Etc.???
I think you and I both have a lot of nonverbal pain that needs to be explored and processed. So I think there is a lot to do but yes I know what you mean about it losing its intensity. Is that how you feel? Like what is holding you there?
I have an apt with trauma T next week. I didn't want to consult about this this week for 2 reasons. I don't want to turn either one of them against the other. And also, this is consult Ts specialty. She is a therapist but also, as a client, had her own abrupt terminations as she was on her way to becoming a therapist. So she's been on both side (as had trauma T actually) but I like that this is her specialty.
Yes I often feel the way you do. I am a little uncertain now as to whether or not T is sick of me but generally I do know he is there and feel kind of like, what now? I guess it then becomes more about us? Setting goals that kind of thing and dealing with flashbacks as we do that? Learning how to manage our emotions and separations. Etc.???
I think you and I both have a lot of nonverbal pain that needs to be explored and processed. So I think there is a lot to do but yes I know what you mean about it losing its intensity. Is that how you feel? Like what is holding you there?
((((Liese))))
I don't have anything helpful to say, just wanted to send you a hug.
SB
I don't have anything helpful to say, just wanted to send you a hug.
SB
((((SB))))
Thanks for the hugs. It helps a lot.
*****TRIGGER WARNING***** Difficulty in therapy discussion
Each day gets better, sort of. Today I am feeling a bit sad that I always seem to be the cootie, the one that needs to be protected against, the one that needs to be shut out. Never on the inside. Always on the outside. I guess I've never really been inside myself looking out my whole life. Always looking out trying to get in.
The good news is that today I can hold onto the good of my relationship with T although still angry at his (therapy's) limitations. He told me to just be myself, just ask for what I need and he would take care of himself. He was already getting fed up with my emailing (not the asking for support emails but more argumentative emails) before he found out about my googling so it wasn't a boundary violation that caused this. He hadn't been taking care of himself. (And lots of people would say that the googling wasn't a boundary violation although in T's mind, since I knew about his privacy needs, it was.)
And that's the trouble with therapy, right there. It's supposed to be about our needs but when our needs or desires infringe upon or piss off a T's needs, that frame will fall apart, unless you have an exceptionally mature T.
I need that real space. In real life, you can count on people to be themselves and to either like you or not and that's real. But not so therapy. However, you can't expect people in real life to help you work through your emotional dilemmas. It sucks, doesn't it?
Thanks for the hugs. It helps a lot.
*****TRIGGER WARNING***** Difficulty in therapy discussion
Each day gets better, sort of. Today I am feeling a bit sad that I always seem to be the cootie, the one that needs to be protected against, the one that needs to be shut out. Never on the inside. Always on the outside. I guess I've never really been inside myself looking out my whole life. Always looking out trying to get in.
The good news is that today I can hold onto the good of my relationship with T although still angry at his (therapy's) limitations. He told me to just be myself, just ask for what I need and he would take care of himself. He was already getting fed up with my emailing (not the asking for support emails but more argumentative emails) before he found out about my googling so it wasn't a boundary violation that caused this. He hadn't been taking care of himself. (And lots of people would say that the googling wasn't a boundary violation although in T's mind, since I knew about his privacy needs, it was.)
And that's the trouble with therapy, right there. It's supposed to be about our needs but when our needs or desires infringe upon or piss off a T's needs, that frame will fall apart, unless you have an exceptionally mature T.
I need that real space. In real life, you can count on people to be themselves and to either like you or not and that's real. But not so therapy. However, you can't expect people in real life to help you work through your emotional dilemmas. It sucks, doesn't it?
quote:when our needs or desires infringe upon or piss off a T's needs, that frame will fall apart,
Hi Liese,
I'm sorry you are going through such a difficult rupture, but the consult T sounds wonderful and I admire you for reaching out to her.
I think you are being too hard on yourself about this googling issue and how he's made it seem as if you have infringed upon his needs, because should we even be aware of what our Ts or Ps need? I really can't think of what my Ps' needs are, in terms of his relationship with me. He hasn't made any known to me, and it seems that you have become very aware of your Ts need for privacy and as a result, your therapy isn't totally about your needs.
I think therapy does break down if you feel you have to meet a need of your T or P, or possibly even worse, if you are aware of a need that you cannot meet. This happened to me with my former P and it was terribly confusing.
How did he let you know privacy was a need of his? Maybe when you asked questions about him or his family, he told you he wouldn't reveal that sort of information because he needs his privacy? It seems like he should have focused on why you wanted to know, why you were asking, rather than make it about himself and say he's private. He could have simply said that we are here to talk about you, not me, which is something my P once said to me and I can't even remember the context. Also, your T could focus on what need were you meeting, or trying to meet, by googling his family.
I'm sorry if this sounds a little tough, but I think the focus should be entirely on your needs, not his, and this is why you are paying him. I remember AG wrote a very good post about the needs of Ts and Ps and why our payments are a means of meeting a particular need of theirs, income, so they keep their emotional needs out of the therapy. If she reads this thread, maybe she will post the link, because she explained it so well.
I hope your sessions next week provide some answers and peace of mind.
Summer
((((SUMMER))))
What you say really makes sense. I do agree with you that he is bringing too much of himself into the room and probably always has in one way or another that he didn't and/or doesn't recognize.
I can't help but wonder, though, if that expectation of therapy and the therapist isn't an ideal that is just that. An ideal. Something from a textbook that doesn't always work that way in real life with real people.
I think that I would still feel ashamed of myself if I brought in needs that were met with "why do you want to know?" Or "let's talk about you?" That's the hard part. You open up your core to this person. You show them how unlovable and unworthy you feel about yourself. At least I did and my T wasn't able in the darkest moment to mirror love back to me. Some people just can't cope with such dark feelings. Again that is probably more about him than me. He keeps himself afloat and positive and happy but perhaps he hasn't come to terms with his core sadness or darkness. It's a lot to ask of someone.
What you say really makes sense. I do agree with you that he is bringing too much of himself into the room and probably always has in one way or another that he didn't and/or doesn't recognize.
I can't help but wonder, though, if that expectation of therapy and the therapist isn't an ideal that is just that. An ideal. Something from a textbook that doesn't always work that way in real life with real people.
I think that I would still feel ashamed of myself if I brought in needs that were met with "why do you want to know?" Or "let's talk about you?" That's the hard part. You open up your core to this person. You show them how unlovable and unworthy you feel about yourself. At least I did and my T wasn't able in the darkest moment to mirror love back to me. Some people just can't cope with such dark feelings. Again that is probably more about him than me. He keeps himself afloat and positive and happy but perhaps he hasn't come to terms with his core sadness or darkness. It's a lot to ask of someone.
quote:my T wasn't able in the darkest moment to mirror love back to me
Hi Liese,
My P is never going to tell me he loves me and I have to admit, it's hard to accept, especially when I express my feelings for him, but his actions make me feel worthy and lovable. If he did tell me he loved me and I was meeting a particular need of his, I would be stuck in therapy. It's exactly what happened with my former P.
When you expressed all of this to your T and he wasn't able to openly express love to you, how did he react? Do you feel as if he validates all of your feelings? Do you feel his actions indicate love and care?
When my P has redirected the conversation away from questions about him back to me, I had been expressing my disappointment with the reality of never knowing him completely as a person, as I would had I met him under different circumstances. I would say I felt more sadness and disappointment than shame.
It's hard to face that disappointment and grieve what I will never have with him, but I believe it's something we must face in therapy. In doing so, we can understand where the desire for more has originated, in childhood, and then accept what they do have to offer. It's hard, I know.
(((SUMMER)))
I think he has been struggling with his positive feelings for me for the past 3 months - now that I look back. On some level, I was picking that up and trying to get closer which made him pull away even more. It's a dance he and I do. So, no, he wasn't able to mirror back some kind of love and care. In fact, in session this week, he shuddered at the thought of "loving" me or "hugging" me. It did NOT feel good.
The problem started with the emails but, at the end of the day, he does not have the experience he needs in order to help me through this period. I asked for his email address almost 3 years ago when he went on vacation and he wouldn't give it to me. I had a crisis while he was gone and consulted with a trauma T that week. She criticized him in the sense that she said, he might be a good therapist but he was insensitive and she worried about his ability to help me through the "transference".
I brought it all back to him and he had a little mini crisis. He and I worked it all through as you know. So, when he went on vacation this time, he just gave me his email address and said, "this time, I want to do it right."
I didn't need his email address and wasn't expecting it but of course was thrilled to get it. If he had asked me, however, how he could have done it right, it would have been for me to be able to just miss him and that be okay. Well, not only that, but for him to accept it, in the way that I would accept my little one to miss me when I go out even though I might not miss her or might be looking forward to going.
So, how he thought he was "doing it right" this time wasn't what I needed. It was based on what he thought I needed or maybe even on a need of his. When I brought it up to him the other day, that he was the one who gave me his email address, he said, "well, that was in case you had a crisis." I replied that he told me at the time that he wanted to do it right this time.
I thought more about what he said and wondered if he was really protecting himself. He didn't like that I went to a trauma T and talked about him. He didn't like that she criticized him. He did eventually take the criticism in but it was hard for him. And, so, was his giving me his email address based partly on his needs as well as what he thought mine were?"
I don't know if it really matters because at the end of the day, I need someone who can take in and appreciate my positive feelings for them and he isn't able to do that. I mean, I guess, not everyone is going to have positive feelings for us in the way that we might have for them BUT, I have to start somewhere - even if it's a little rusty at first. I need someone to be able to react to me in a way that is validating and doesn't crush me.
It's as if I need to give up on him "loving" me while still holding onto "love" for myself and I think he needs to be able to mirror some kind of "loving" feelings back towards me somehow as I go through the grieving process of not getting what I should have gotten in childhood. It's a difficult line for a T to walk, I imagine, and probably takes a lot of skill and experience that my T just doesn't have.
Consult T said he is taking me too concretely with all the love stuff.
Okay, so back to his being a therapist. Therapists aren't exposed to scrutiny from the outside world. It IS a very protected profession in that way. I am an attorney and am trying to get back into the practice of law. It's the other attorney's job to find the holes in my work and let me tell you, they do and they can and it can be a brutal profession. If you watch Judge Judy, you know that the judges aren't always so nice either. So you have your clients evaluating you as well as other professionals - not always correctly but it's an element you have to deal with. Doctors have their client's evaluating them and I suppose that might be more like a therapist unless you are a surgeon or out there in some other way and exposed to other professionals judging you as you operate, etc. You get the point.
I think my T's problem is that he needs to see himself as a loving, caring therapist (who wouldn't?) but that sometimes he's acting more from that place? IDK, just a thought.
For my issues, I probably need someone who is able to mirror love back to me and he just can't do that, for whatever reason. He can't do that.
I think he has been struggling with his positive feelings for me for the past 3 months - now that I look back. On some level, I was picking that up and trying to get closer which made him pull away even more. It's a dance he and I do. So, no, he wasn't able to mirror back some kind of love and care. In fact, in session this week, he shuddered at the thought of "loving" me or "hugging" me. It did NOT feel good.
The problem started with the emails but, at the end of the day, he does not have the experience he needs in order to help me through this period. I asked for his email address almost 3 years ago when he went on vacation and he wouldn't give it to me. I had a crisis while he was gone and consulted with a trauma T that week. She criticized him in the sense that she said, he might be a good therapist but he was insensitive and she worried about his ability to help me through the "transference".
I brought it all back to him and he had a little mini crisis. He and I worked it all through as you know. So, when he went on vacation this time, he just gave me his email address and said, "this time, I want to do it right."
I didn't need his email address and wasn't expecting it but of course was thrilled to get it. If he had asked me, however, how he could have done it right, it would have been for me to be able to just miss him and that be okay. Well, not only that, but for him to accept it, in the way that I would accept my little one to miss me when I go out even though I might not miss her or might be looking forward to going.
So, how he thought he was "doing it right" this time wasn't what I needed. It was based on what he thought I needed or maybe even on a need of his. When I brought it up to him the other day, that he was the one who gave me his email address, he said, "well, that was in case you had a crisis." I replied that he told me at the time that he wanted to do it right this time.
I thought more about what he said and wondered if he was really protecting himself. He didn't like that I went to a trauma T and talked about him. He didn't like that she criticized him. He did eventually take the criticism in but it was hard for him. And, so, was his giving me his email address based partly on his needs as well as what he thought mine were?"
I don't know if it really matters because at the end of the day, I need someone who can take in and appreciate my positive feelings for them and he isn't able to do that. I mean, I guess, not everyone is going to have positive feelings for us in the way that we might have for them BUT, I have to start somewhere - even if it's a little rusty at first. I need someone to be able to react to me in a way that is validating and doesn't crush me.
It's as if I need to give up on him "loving" me while still holding onto "love" for myself and I think he needs to be able to mirror some kind of "loving" feelings back towards me somehow as I go through the grieving process of not getting what I should have gotten in childhood. It's a difficult line for a T to walk, I imagine, and probably takes a lot of skill and experience that my T just doesn't have.
Consult T said he is taking me too concretely with all the love stuff.
Okay, so back to his being a therapist. Therapists aren't exposed to scrutiny from the outside world. It IS a very protected profession in that way. I am an attorney and am trying to get back into the practice of law. It's the other attorney's job to find the holes in my work and let me tell you, they do and they can and it can be a brutal profession. If you watch Judge Judy, you know that the judges aren't always so nice either. So you have your clients evaluating you as well as other professionals - not always correctly but it's an element you have to deal with. Doctors have their client's evaluating them and I suppose that might be more like a therapist unless you are a surgeon or out there in some other way and exposed to other professionals judging you as you operate, etc. You get the point.
I think my T's problem is that he needs to see himself as a loving, caring therapist (who wouldn't?) but that sometimes he's acting more from that place? IDK, just a thought.
For my issues, I probably need someone who is able to mirror love back to me and he just can't do that, for whatever reason. He can't do that.
Hi liese,
Maybe he is not the right T for you at this time? It doesn't invalidate anything you have gotten out of the therapy with him so far, but it reads to me like you need (not just want) something valid and necessary, that this T can't give (for his own reasons).
Boundaries are good - but his might not be ok for your particular needs right now? Doesn't make either of you the villan - just sometimes how it is.
Apologies if I'm totally wrong.
SB
Maybe he is not the right T for you at this time? It doesn't invalidate anything you have gotten out of the therapy with him so far, but it reads to me like you need (not just want) something valid and necessary, that this T can't give (for his own reasons).
Boundaries are good - but his might not be ok for your particular needs right now? Doesn't make either of you the villan - just sometimes how it is.
Apologies if I'm totally wrong.
SB
(((SB)))
You are not wrong. No apologies necessary. I really want to hold onto all the good but sometimes it's hard. It does help me somewhat to analyze it from the perspective of Ts psychological structure when I go into shame mode. I hope it doesn't sound Like I am villainizing him that much.
You are not wrong. No apologies necessary. I really want to hold onto all the good but sometimes it's hard. It does help me somewhat to analyze it from the perspective of Ts psychological structure when I go into shame mode. I hope it doesn't sound Like I am villainizing him that much.