The absolute reality is that he gave more to me than he has to any other client and all I kept doing was criticizing him that he wasn't being a good trauma therapist.
However. To be fair to me, in the course of our relationship, he encouraged me time and time again to bring all my feelings into the room even the negative ones about him. At some point, it probably got too much and I forgot he was a human being. Hmm I wonder if that's how my mother let us treat her. Well mentally anyway as I was never able to express anger in the family nor able to work through my anger and disappointment at not getting my needs met.
That seems to be an essential ingredient in order to build a healthy sense of self.
Oh thanks sb. You helped me look at this in a new way.
I'm not sure if he forgot you were human, Liese. I think he didn't hold the boundaries, could not contain the emotions and tried to solve them to meet you but also without consideration to his working frame - whether you liked the frame or not. When people try to change for us... It can work but it can also painfully fail.
I had a similar situation with email and T2. I was the only and first client she emailed with. During her divorce and a rupture we had at that time about something else things got brought in to my therapy. She admitted it and her mistakes. We since do not email - it was an angry struggle at first and we worked around it... After 6 months without it I asked if we could discuss doing it again. She said no - but not the no in the context she had before but something structured, even if I still don't agree (but I mean... We can NEVER have what happened happen again it was horrible on both sides and way too personal on my T). Anyway, I called her back immediately after just on tears to thank her for the right no, the one that felt compassionate.
I know it's not the same... But, sometimes we try something, we adjust and try our best - during our email rupture t2 tried almost anything to meet me from telling me she loved me to calling me (that's not something she does, t1 is a call without peompting type)... It was a horrifying and deeply traumatizing. I should have left but stayed anyway and just utilize her in a more accessory way and do my attachment work exclusively with T1.
So, they are good people, they are damaged too like anyone. Anyway... It was Ts job to say no to the things he couldn't accommodate, and to try the things he wanted to after researching and checking with himself. It is like you said, sometimes we get a taste of something and wanting more doesn't stop. It was truly his job to say no no matter how much you hated him for it, how much reading you did, how much psychoanalysis you went through or how many professional opinions you relayed to him... And then deal emotionally with the feedback without reactivity. It would have helped to avoid the burnout.
Ugh... I hate thinking of last year this time. Worst re-enactment of my life. I had t1 to help leverage it towards my healing (like the situation with T2 was a semi-safe way to literally be exposure therapy). She even compared it to one of the most awful things that happened to me - it wasn't literally the same but so figurative it made me ill.
You'll get through this!
I had a similar situation with email and T2. I was the only and first client she emailed with. During her divorce and a rupture we had at that time about something else things got brought in to my therapy. She admitted it and her mistakes. We since do not email - it was an angry struggle at first and we worked around it... After 6 months without it I asked if we could discuss doing it again. She said no - but not the no in the context she had before but something structured, even if I still don't agree (but I mean... We can NEVER have what happened happen again it was horrible on both sides and way too personal on my T). Anyway, I called her back immediately after just on tears to thank her for the right no, the one that felt compassionate.
I know it's not the same... But, sometimes we try something, we adjust and try our best - during our email rupture t2 tried almost anything to meet me from telling me she loved me to calling me (that's not something she does, t1 is a call without peompting type)... It was a horrifying and deeply traumatizing. I should have left but stayed anyway and just utilize her in a more accessory way and do my attachment work exclusively with T1.
So, they are good people, they are damaged too like anyone. Anyway... It was Ts job to say no to the things he couldn't accommodate, and to try the things he wanted to after researching and checking with himself. It is like you said, sometimes we get a taste of something and wanting more doesn't stop. It was truly his job to say no no matter how much you hated him for it, how much reading you did, how much psychoanalysis you went through or how many professional opinions you relayed to him... And then deal emotionally with the feedback without reactivity. It would have helped to avoid the burnout.
Ugh... I hate thinking of last year this time. Worst re-enactment of my life. I had t1 to help leverage it towards my healing (like the situation with T2 was a semi-safe way to literally be exposure therapy). She even compared it to one of the most awful things that happened to me - it wasn't literally the same but so figurative it made me ill.
You'll get through this!
quote:I hope it doesn't sound Like I am villainizing him that much.
((((liese))))) actually I was more concerned that you were seeing yourself as villan.
sb
((((CAT))))
Thanks for sharing your story. It sounds a lot like what I am going through. I guess I have to agree with you that he didn't hold his boundaries.
Things play out the way they do but I wonder why he didn't think about taking it back instead of letting it build up so much it nearly destroyed all the good work we did?
Maybe he wasn't identifying the email as the problem? It kind of just became "me" as the problem. Well, I am the problem, LOL, but that's besides the point. As I said above, it played out the way it played out. It would have been ideal if he had stayed on top of his feelings and been proactive. Maybe he was afraid to hurt my feelings.
It's inspiring that you and T2 were able to repair.
Yes, I feel the same way. It has really helped A LOT that you all have been so supportive during this difficult time. A good friend I love dearly has been and always is amazing as well. And, of course, consult T was and is amazing. I like the way you put that, a semi-safe way to do exposure therapy. Hopefully I will integrate something throughout this experience. I wouldn't have been able to cope at all if I hadn't had all that support.
Thanks for sharing your story. It sounds a lot like what I am going through. I guess I have to agree with you that he didn't hold his boundaries.
Things play out the way they do but I wonder why he didn't think about taking it back instead of letting it build up so much it nearly destroyed all the good work we did?
Maybe he wasn't identifying the email as the problem? It kind of just became "me" as the problem. Well, I am the problem, LOL, but that's besides the point. As I said above, it played out the way it played out. It would have been ideal if he had stayed on top of his feelings and been proactive. Maybe he was afraid to hurt my feelings.
It's inspiring that you and T2 were able to repair.
quote:I had t1 to help leverage it towards my healing (like the situation with T2 was a semi-safe way to literally be exposure therapy).
Yes, I feel the same way. It has really helped A LOT that you all have been so supportive during this difficult time. A good friend I love dearly has been and always is amazing as well. And, of course, consult T was and is amazing. I like the way you put that, a semi-safe way to do exposure therapy. Hopefully I will integrate something throughout this experience. I wouldn't have been able to cope at all if I hadn't had all that support.
(((CAT)))
I think I forgot T was human and not an "object".
(((SB)))
Thanks. How do you think I was villainizing myself?
I think I forgot T was human and not an "object".
(((SB)))
Thanks. How do you think I was villainizing myself?
Or maybe T forgot that HE was a human and not an object.
Villianizing ... ???
Oh, no, it's ai not ia ...
((((MONTE)))))
I have been thinking A LOT about exactly what you are talking about. I just don't think my T can bring his emotions in the room in the way that I need. I think the story about his vacation and wanting to do it right illustrates it. All I wanted to do was to tell him I would miss him and have him respond in some kind of loving way that would show me it was okay to have those feelings. But his way was to give me his email address and when I did write to him, his emails were short and triggered me even more.
Had he been comfortable with the feelings, we could have said goodbye, he wouldn't have had to give me his email address and we would probably be doing fine at this point.
BUT, he wasn't comfortable and still isn't and that makes it ultimately unsafe for me. I was letting myself get close to those feelings because it seemed to be a necessary part of my healing. But it's almost as if there isn't a safety net there to catch them, it's traumatizing.
It does sound like you have a similar issues with your T. However, at least the two of you have been able to keep your relationship afloat. Maybe the fact that you take breaks are enough to keep the relationship fresh. I am probably too intense for my T.
I can't ever imagine going back if I leave because I like him too much. At this point, I have really alienated him and I'm not sure he has many positive feelings left for me. Maybe he can only find them now because he thinks the relationship is over ... or maybe because he made space for himself in the relationship.
I have been thinking A LOT about exactly what you are talking about. I just don't think my T can bring his emotions in the room in the way that I need. I think the story about his vacation and wanting to do it right illustrates it. All I wanted to do was to tell him I would miss him and have him respond in some kind of loving way that would show me it was okay to have those feelings. But his way was to give me his email address and when I did write to him, his emails were short and triggered me even more.
Had he been comfortable with the feelings, we could have said goodbye, he wouldn't have had to give me his email address and we would probably be doing fine at this point.
BUT, he wasn't comfortable and still isn't and that makes it ultimately unsafe for me. I was letting myself get close to those feelings because it seemed to be a necessary part of my healing. But it's almost as if there isn't a safety net there to catch them, it's traumatizing.
It does sound like you have a similar issues with your T. However, at least the two of you have been able to keep your relationship afloat. Maybe the fact that you take breaks are enough to keep the relationship fresh. I am probably too intense for my T.
I can't ever imagine going back if I leave because I like him too much. At this point, I have really alienated him and I'm not sure he has many positive feelings left for me. Maybe he can only find them now because he thinks the relationship is over ... or maybe because he made space for himself in the relationship.
However,
I do think my T is a gentle soul. He told me recently that he was in middle management once and had to fire someone and it was awful. He said he had to fire a psychiatrist who was coming in late to work, not taking notes, etc., and that he gave her multiple warnings but her behavior didn't change. Even though he really tried to give her feedback and she clearly "deserved" to be fired, it was a really hard thing for him to do. So, I'm sure he can't feel so great about what is going on between he and I even though it had to be done.
I do think my T is a gentle soul. He told me recently that he was in middle management once and had to fire someone and it was awful. He said he had to fire a psychiatrist who was coming in late to work, not taking notes, etc., and that he gave her multiple warnings but her behavior didn't change. Even though he really tried to give her feedback and she clearly "deserved" to be fired, it was a really hard thing for him to do. So, I'm sure he can't feel so great about what is going on between he and I even though it had to be done.
I was referred to this woman. She doesn't take insurance and is a bit far from my house but I wanted to share some of what she wrote on my website. I felt like, wow, really? There are people out there who are like this and I don't have to struggle to get what I need?
quote:Individual psychotherapy, sometimes referred to as personal counseling or talk therapy, is a process by which an individual seeks to enhance his or her sense of well-being through an intentional interpersonal relationship with a trained mental health professional. Psychotherapy provides a safe, confidential, supportive and non-judgmental environment where you can talk about yourself and explore who you are and what you need and want. It can provide you with the opportunity to identify your core beliefs, your typical ways of coping, your strengths and vulnerabilities, as well as your patterns of relatedness to yourself and to others. This process is often called “self-reflection,” “self-exploration” or “self-discovery.” Your discoveries can guide your decisions in making the changes that you believe will improve your wellbeing.
In general, my work is informed by the relational school of thought within the psychodynamic model of psychotherapy. The cornerstone of this therapeutic approach is the belief that our personalities were formed through our relationships with significant people in our lives, especially in our early formative years. These relationships not only affect the way we relate to others in our adult life but also the way we manage our own feelings, thoughts and needs. Because we were shaped within a relationship, our own growth and change is most effectively negotiated within a relationship. This is why many therapists emphasize the importance of a meaningful relationship between therapist and patient. A competent therapist can help you explore yourself by way of empathically listening to what you say and what you don’t say.When appropriate, and when I believe that the patient can benefit from it, I integrate principles of other models of interventions such as coaching and emotional intelligence training.
A typical individual session lasts 45 minutes.
Extended sessions or “double” sessions are also available when deemed appropriate.
Session frequency is typically once or twice per week
((liese))
i dont know if i have anything useful to say, but i'm sorry you're going through this painful time. i do hope something good will come of it, you've stuck with your T for so long and have made a lot of progress despite some issues on his part, and he's stuck by you as well and shown that he does care, but i think that at this point, the best way for him to show that he cares is to let you go, to help you move on, to realise there is someone out there who can do a lot more for you then he can. i dont know if i read everything you said properly so i dont know if this is still a decision in progress for you... this shouldnt be at all about him (and whether he didnt like you googling his family - which if its on the internet its fair game for everyone and you did nothing wrong). i hope that you wont find this process too painful, but i believe you can do amazing things with the right therapist, you've already done so well with more limited resources.
puppet
i dont know if i have anything useful to say, but i'm sorry you're going through this painful time. i do hope something good will come of it, you've stuck with your T for so long and have made a lot of progress despite some issues on his part, and he's stuck by you as well and shown that he does care, but i think that at this point, the best way for him to show that he cares is to let you go, to help you move on, to realise there is someone out there who can do a lot more for you then he can. i dont know if i read everything you said properly so i dont know if this is still a decision in progress for you... this shouldnt be at all about him (and whether he didnt like you googling his family - which if its on the internet its fair game for everyone and you did nothing wrong). i hope that you wont find this process too painful, but i believe you can do amazing things with the right therapist, you've already done so well with more limited resources.
puppet
((((AG))))
Thanks for being so supportive. I read that article and loved it. She sounds great. I want her to be my therapist.
I can't help but agree with you here. I don't know if it's that he wasn't strong enough or confident enough? Now that I look back, I wonder if he hadn't felt guilty about things I picked up on and, as if to defend himself against certain feelings, tried to be the perfect therapist to me.
I'm probably thinking about it all too much. I just think it's so odd the way it all played out. I wonder if, at the end of the day, it's because he's not on top of his emotions as much as he needs to be and so he cuts himself off emotionally from his feelings towards certain clients when he needs to protect himself from negative or positive feelings until he can't take it anymore. I think back over the years about the "snarky" comments he made to me. That explanation makes sense to me.
He took me on as a client. He told me he wanted to help me from the day he met me. Maybe it was the rescue thing that was so powerful but when I turned out to represent some needy person from his past, he couldn't deal with it.
Ultimately, I'm in therapy to learn about myself. I've always said that I could hear anything negative about myself, have any conversation as long as I was with someone who "loved" me. That stupid word again. Maybe I should say it's as long as I was with someone who wouldn't reject me. I guess I'm baffled why the countertransference stuff is so hard for him when I've been so open about being open and wanting to be open.
I can't criticize him too much because I wasn't functioning very well when I landed on his doorstep. He gave me hope when I had none and I am doing much better now.
Thanks for being so supportive. I read that article and loved it. She sounds great. I want her to be my therapist.
I can't help but agree with you here. I don't know if it's that he wasn't strong enough or confident enough? Now that I look back, I wonder if he hadn't felt guilty about things I picked up on and, as if to defend himself against certain feelings, tried to be the perfect therapist to me.
I'm probably thinking about it all too much. I just think it's so odd the way it all played out. I wonder if, at the end of the day, it's because he's not on top of his emotions as much as he needs to be and so he cuts himself off emotionally from his feelings towards certain clients when he needs to protect himself from negative or positive feelings until he can't take it anymore. I think back over the years about the "snarky" comments he made to me. That explanation makes sense to me.
He took me on as a client. He told me he wanted to help me from the day he met me. Maybe it was the rescue thing that was so powerful but when I turned out to represent some needy person from his past, he couldn't deal with it.
Ultimately, I'm in therapy to learn about myself. I've always said that I could hear anything negative about myself, have any conversation as long as I was with someone who "loved" me. That stupid word again. Maybe I should say it's as long as I was with someone who wouldn't reject me. I guess I'm baffled why the countertransference stuff is so hard for him when I've been so open about being open and wanting to be open.
I can't criticize him too much because I wasn't functioning very well when I landed on his doorstep. He gave me hope when I had none and I am doing much better now.
Here is a link to a great article that might explain why he's been so removed from me at times:
Therapists and their feelings
Therapists and their feelings
((((PUPPET))))
Hey there. I didn't mean to skip over you. Thanks for your words of encouragement and support. Yes, I am still thinking about what to do. I go back and forth but do know I have a serious problem and have to do something about it.
I really do need a psychodynamic therapist because I need help in the "unthought known" and since my T is not adept on the emotional level, ugggghhhh, that is where we struggle and battle, in some crazy psychological space the two of us created. Like having a sword fight in some weird space.
Thanks for the vote of confidence! I don't even know how a psychodynamic therapist would work. How would it be any different?
Hey there. I didn't mean to skip over you. Thanks for your words of encouragement and support. Yes, I am still thinking about what to do. I go back and forth but do know I have a serious problem and have to do something about it.
I really do need a psychodynamic therapist because I need help in the "unthought known" and since my T is not adept on the emotional level, ugggghhhh, that is where we struggle and battle, in some crazy psychological space the two of us created. Like having a sword fight in some weird space.
Thanks for the vote of confidence! I don't even know how a psychodynamic therapist would work. How would it be any different?
(((MONTE))I really believe in your statement,that genuine love of the ethical kind is the greatest of healers. I just wish it were easier to find, and easier to hang on to.
(((((MONTE))))))
Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know what good enough looks like either. I thought love was enough too but I'm thinking twice about that now. What does love look like?
My parents never had any expectations of us in terms of how we treated each other. Of course, there were expectations of how we treated them but not each other. We were allowed to be mean and abuse each other and we did.
My parents, actually, did have other expectations though, that we weren't supposed to abandon them or each other no matter how much we hurt each other.
In thinking more about it tonight, I don't think it was the googling so much. T said that was the straw that broke the camel's back. He was already upset with me because of a couple of email wars we had. One over New Years and the other the Friday before I told him about the googling. I literally took up his entire Friday emailing him about a difficult topic and quitting therapy.
So, here he is, working 4 long days a week and here I am, not showing any regard for when I email him. I had asked him that if he couldn't respond right away to shoot me a quick email to let me know he would get back to me. He was doing that but then also getting caught up in my emotional traps.
So, he had pretty much had it with me and I wasn't paying him for any extra time. He needs those 3 days to chill. Anyway, I guess my point is that I WAS taking advantage of him, of his kindness. Okay, he was letting me but people IRL are going to let me. IDK, isn't it a good thing that he called me on my "bad" behavior? That's something my parents didn't do. It was all about their needs, my needs got stuffed and I deeply resented it. I acted out and no one noticed. Maybe T is doing me a favor?
I don't know what will happen. Consult T thinks we have a chance of working things through, that we have a long history of rupture and repair. I do think, though, that I should at least take a break from him and go on some consults. Maybe someone can help me work through some of the more difficult stuff towards T that he can't handle.
I have a crazy number of consults this week. I already have an apt. with trauma T on Tuesday, consult T on Monday, T on Monday, new psychodynamic consult on Wednesday, another new psychodynamic consult on Tuesday and I have another name to call tomorrow.
Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know what good enough looks like either. I thought love was enough too but I'm thinking twice about that now. What does love look like?
My parents never had any expectations of us in terms of how we treated each other. Of course, there were expectations of how we treated them but not each other. We were allowed to be mean and abuse each other and we did.
My parents, actually, did have other expectations though, that we weren't supposed to abandon them or each other no matter how much we hurt each other.
In thinking more about it tonight, I don't think it was the googling so much. T said that was the straw that broke the camel's back. He was already upset with me because of a couple of email wars we had. One over New Years and the other the Friday before I told him about the googling. I literally took up his entire Friday emailing him about a difficult topic and quitting therapy.
So, here he is, working 4 long days a week and here I am, not showing any regard for when I email him. I had asked him that if he couldn't respond right away to shoot me a quick email to let me know he would get back to me. He was doing that but then also getting caught up in my emotional traps.
So, he had pretty much had it with me and I wasn't paying him for any extra time. He needs those 3 days to chill. Anyway, I guess my point is that I WAS taking advantage of him, of his kindness. Okay, he was letting me but people IRL are going to let me. IDK, isn't it a good thing that he called me on my "bad" behavior? That's something my parents didn't do. It was all about their needs, my needs got stuffed and I deeply resented it. I acted out and no one noticed. Maybe T is doing me a favor?
I don't know what will happen. Consult T thinks we have a chance of working things through, that we have a long history of rupture and repair. I do think, though, that I should at least take a break from him and go on some consults. Maybe someone can help me work through some of the more difficult stuff towards T that he can't handle.
I have a crazy number of consults this week. I already have an apt. with trauma T on Tuesday, consult T on Monday, T on Monday, new psychodynamic consult on Wednesday, another new psychodynamic consult on Tuesday and I have another name to call tomorrow.
Oh yeah, and my parents were givers but then when I didn't give back what they wanted, they got angry with me. Gifts always had strings.
((((Liese)))) gifts with strings, i can certainly relate with that, as well as mother getting sideways angry if you didn't give her the "right" gift. i'm sorry you experienced that.
i don't have much to add here, but i just wanted to lend my support and let you know i've been reading. i admire your depth of perception and your honesty, with your therapist, yourself, and the forum. very brave, indeed.
i am interested in how the consults with the psychodynamic therapists go. i am wishing you the absolute best in working through all of this.
i'm sorry you experienced that. i don't have much to add here, but i just wanted to lend my support and let you know i've been reading. i admire your depth of perception and your honesty, with your therapist, yourself, and the forum. very brave, indeed.
i am interested in how the consults with the psychodynamic therapists go. i am wishing you the absolute best in working through all of this.
Hi Liese -
My experience with a psychodynamic T is that she is frequently checking in with how I'm feeling about therapy and the relationship. She's made it clear from the beginning that she wants to hear anything that comes up, negative or positive, and that's an important part of the work. When I have a problem with something she's said or done she welcomes hearing it, hears what it means to me, looks for ways we can handle the same problem together in future without my feeling alone with it. She normalises my needs and often asks me not to worry about intruding on her. If she's not able to meet my needs she will find a way of explaining her limitation kindly, and she cares about how that feels for me. In practice that means sometimes I get an email like "I hear you. Sending you good thoughts" or "I'm glad you wrote. I'll be able to respond tomorrow", or "Yes, this is important. Let's make time to talk about this in session." She often asks how she can support me with the things I'm struggling with alone. Maybe if I were asking for more we would do different kinds of boundary work, but actually her approach makes me feel much less needy and at the moment I reach out less often, because I feel secure.
It's very different. I'm sure not every psychodynamic T works like this, but it's nice to have found one who does.
My experience with a psychodynamic T is that she is frequently checking in with how I'm feeling about therapy and the relationship. She's made it clear from the beginning that she wants to hear anything that comes up, negative or positive, and that's an important part of the work. When I have a problem with something she's said or done she welcomes hearing it, hears what it means to me, looks for ways we can handle the same problem together in future without my feeling alone with it. She normalises my needs and often asks me not to worry about intruding on her. If she's not able to meet my needs she will find a way of explaining her limitation kindly, and she cares about how that feels for me. In practice that means sometimes I get an email like "I hear you. Sending you good thoughts" or "I'm glad you wrote. I'll be able to respond tomorrow", or "Yes, this is important. Let's make time to talk about this in session." She often asks how she can support me with the things I'm struggling with alone. Maybe if I were asking for more we would do different kinds of boundary work, but actually her approach makes me feel much less needy and at the moment I reach out less often, because I feel secure.
It's very different. I'm sure not every psychodynamic T works like this, but it's nice to have found one who does.
quote:I'm sure not every psychodynamic T works like this, but it's nice to have found one who does.
Jones, my T who is a psychodynamic T, also works very much like this. The relationship is very important and he is always checking in with me and my feelings towards the relationship and what I need from it. Some things I can have. Others, maybe not. He holds his boundaries while providing the reassurance, support and understanding of why I behave as I do.
I agree it is very nice to have found someone who works this way.
TN
And it's amazing.
(((CD)))
Thanks for stopping in.
My mother's anger came out sideways as well. She also uses other people to express her anger for her. Mostly, it's my brother that she uses and has always used as a puppet. So sad.
I'll let you know how all the consults go. I'm going to go broke this week but it's all good. Well, sort of.
I couldn't have done all this if it wasn't from all the wonderful support I've been receiving from all different sources: psyche cafe, the consults, friends. It's really helped a lot.
Dr. Sue Elkind, the one I'm speaking with today, wrote a book about this. She has been in this position and is a therapist as well. She believes that clients need support during a rupture. Therapy can be isolating and, if you are involved in a rupture with your T, it's easy to have a lot of self-doubt because they are supposed to be the expert of oftentimes come across that way. Even my T seemed convinced that the problem was me until I pointed out that he was the one who gave me his email address. He sat back and said, okay, I will own that. That's his strength. His weakness is probably being too much of a pleaser and being afraid or not confident enough to set boundaries? Now I see what AG meant. That's what she was saying above.
He is a very nice man but also has a way of coming across that communicates "stay away". He can't set the boundaries verbally but does so with his body language, etc., if that makes sense.
((((JONES))))
Wow, she sounds amazing. I'm so glad you found her. I have been trying to communicate to T just that, if he said things a certain way, I would feel more secure. But instead of verbalizing what your T is able to verbalize gently - (or maybe I miss it and can't take it in? Probably the fault of email) my perception is he sets that limit with his tone and brevity. For instance, in our last email war, it wasn't until I quit therapy that he wrote something that connected with me emotionally. My thought was, "why couldn't he have written that at the beginning and things wouldn't have gotten so out of control?"
I've suggested ways for him to say things to me that would help but he thinks I'm trying to control him so refuses to go there. He's being himself and I have to deal with it. When I have complained about something he didn't pick up on in session, he has said to me, "okay, I need you to phrase it this way". I asked him what the difference was between me asking him to phrase something a certain way so that I will "get" it? and him asking me to phrase something a certain way so that he will "get" it?
Yes, this is what I explain to him. I have tried to tell him that our interactions (I think now, mostly our email interactions) actually make me more dependent because I feel less secure but he doesn't seem to get it. It's probably because he has stretched himself to his limits and doesn't know what else he can possibly to do help me feel more secure. Ah, maybe that's where the grieving comes in. At some point, I have to (or not, I guess) accept that these are the limits of this relationship.
(((TN)))
I'm so glad you found your T.
(((SD)))
All great questions. Thanks for asking. Thinking about them are helping me clarify what the strengths and weaknesses are of my current relationship.
Ha, when I wound up on my T's doorstep, I had NO criteria at all. I stayed because I liked him and because he didn't say anything stupid. LOL! I used to silently roll my eyes at the T I had before him because she was always so off base. I didn't even realize I was doing that.
I stayed because he found a way to connect to me. God knows, I couldn't find a way to connect to anyone. I stayed was because he brought me out of my isolated world and I couldn't tolerate going back to the isolated world I had been living in. That was worse than any of the pain I have had to endure in the process.
There is something in his style that activates my attachment fears. Something that he may not be aware of and that is the weakness of the relationship. Some of that might be fueled by the literature, the strict interpretation of boundaries, etc. and some fueled by his personality.
It has been through the activation of my fears that they have been brought to the surface and I've been able to verbalize them. However, a trauma T would have NOT activated them quite as much as this T has.
I'm not sure what I want in a current T. In some ways, because he has blamed me at times for the failures of the relationship buthas also owned his part that has been very healing because in my FOO - I got blamed for everything BUT my parents couldn't and never would OWN anything. In his email to me this past Friday, he wrote that I didn't have to apologize for anything, that he was right there with me.
Through his focusing on me as the problem and then owning his part, I've learned to stand up for myself. That will help me when I face that type of difficulty IRL. If I had a T who never focused on me as the problem, would I learn how to defend myself in that way IRL?
So he's not ideal because I'm not sure he seeks supervision for his shit but he's smart and strong enough to recognize when his shit is interfering?
Off to tennis and then to T. I am blocking his email for starters and telling him to do the same. I told him on Thursday that I would probably not come in today but would likely have a phone session. Now I want to go in. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I'm torn between sending him an email to tell him and then blocking him or just showing up?
Thank you, thank you, thank you all again for being there and offering support and experiences. Even if you are just reading and not saying anything, thanks for being there and listening. It all helps to feel less alone.
Thanks for stopping in.
My mother's anger came out sideways as well. She also uses other people to express her anger for her. Mostly, it's my brother that she uses and has always used as a puppet. So sad.I'll let you know how all the consults go. I'm going to go broke this week but it's all good. Well, sort of.
I couldn't have done all this if it wasn't from all the wonderful support I've been receiving from all different sources: psyche cafe, the consults, friends. It's really helped a lot. Dr. Sue Elkind, the one I'm speaking with today, wrote a book about this. She has been in this position and is a therapist as well. She believes that clients need support during a rupture. Therapy can be isolating and, if you are involved in a rupture with your T, it's easy to have a lot of self-doubt because they are supposed to be the expert of oftentimes come across that way. Even my T seemed convinced that the problem was me until I pointed out that he was the one who gave me his email address. He sat back and said, okay, I will own that. That's his strength. His weakness is probably being too much of a pleaser and being afraid or not confident enough to set boundaries? Now I see what AG meant. That's what she was saying above.
He is a very nice man but also has a way of coming across that communicates "stay away". He can't set the boundaries verbally but does so with his body language, etc., if that makes sense.
((((JONES))))
Wow, she sounds amazing. I'm so glad you found her. I have been trying to communicate to T just that, if he said things a certain way, I would feel more secure. But instead of verbalizing what your T is able to verbalize gently - (or maybe I miss it and can't take it in? Probably the fault of email) my perception is he sets that limit with his tone and brevity. For instance, in our last email war, it wasn't until I quit therapy that he wrote something that connected with me emotionally. My thought was, "why couldn't he have written that at the beginning and things wouldn't have gotten so out of control?"
I've suggested ways for him to say things to me that would help but he thinks I'm trying to control him so refuses to go there. He's being himself and I have to deal with it. When I have complained about something he didn't pick up on in session, he has said to me, "okay, I need you to phrase it this way". I asked him what the difference was between me asking him to phrase something a certain way so that I will "get" it? and him asking me to phrase something a certain way so that he will "get" it?
quote:Maybe if I were asking for more we would do different kinds of boundary work, but actually her approach makes me feel much less needy and at the moment I reach out less often, because I feel secure.
Yes, this is what I explain to him. I have tried to tell him that our interactions (I think now, mostly our email interactions) actually make me more dependent because I feel less secure but he doesn't seem to get it. It's probably because he has stretched himself to his limits and doesn't know what else he can possibly to do help me feel more secure. Ah, maybe that's where the grieving comes in. At some point, I have to (or not, I guess) accept that these are the limits of this relationship.
(((TN)))
I'm so glad you found your T.
(((SD)))
All great questions. Thanks for asking. Thinking about them are helping me clarify what the strengths and weaknesses are of my current relationship.
Ha, when I wound up on my T's doorstep, I had NO criteria at all. I stayed because I liked him and because he didn't say anything stupid. LOL! I used to silently roll my eyes at the T I had before him because she was always so off base. I didn't even realize I was doing that.
I stayed because he found a way to connect to me. God knows, I couldn't find a way to connect to anyone. I stayed was because he brought me out of my isolated world and I couldn't tolerate going back to the isolated world I had been living in. That was worse than any of the pain I have had to endure in the process.
There is something in his style that activates my attachment fears. Something that he may not be aware of and that is the weakness of the relationship. Some of that might be fueled by the literature, the strict interpretation of boundaries, etc. and some fueled by his personality.
It has been through the activation of my fears that they have been brought to the surface and I've been able to verbalize them. However, a trauma T would have NOT activated them quite as much as this T has.
I'm not sure what I want in a current T. In some ways, because he has blamed me at times for the failures of the relationship buthas also owned his part that has been very healing because in my FOO - I got blamed for everything BUT my parents couldn't and never would OWN anything. In his email to me this past Friday, he wrote that I didn't have to apologize for anything, that he was right there with me.
Through his focusing on me as the problem and then owning his part, I've learned to stand up for myself. That will help me when I face that type of difficulty IRL. If I had a T who never focused on me as the problem, would I learn how to defend myself in that way IRL?
So he's not ideal because I'm not sure he seeks supervision for his shit but he's smart and strong enough to recognize when his shit is interfering?
Off to tennis and then to T. I am blocking his email for starters and telling him to do the same. I told him on Thursday that I would probably not come in today but would likely have a phone session. Now I want to go in. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I'm torn between sending him an email to tell him and then blocking him or just showing up?
Thank you, thank you, thank you all again for being there and offering support and experiences. Even if you are just reading and not saying anything, thanks for being there and listening. It all helps to feel less alone.
(((LIESE))) I really admire you for your strength and perseverance. Have a great session today.
(((Liese)))
good luck at your session today. I am sure he will be glad you came to the session in person to discuss things no matter what you do going forward. Try to take some time out of thinking so much this week while you are going to all the consult sessions and talking to T. I know that is easier said than done but you don't have to make any decisions immediately and you deserve the time to think carefully about your future.
good luck at your session today. I am sure he will be glad you came to the session in person to discuss things no matter what you do going forward. Try to take some time out of thinking so much this week while you are going to all the consult sessions and talking to T. I know that is easier said than done but you don't have to make any decisions immediately and you deserve the time to think carefully about your future.
(((EME)))(((COGS)))
Well basically, we identified a lot of what wasn't working. I told him that I set my computer so that his emails go directly to trash and asked him to do the same.
I told him I was taking two weeks off and told him about all the consults. I said I thought it was good for both of us to have a little space and regain our footing. I value the connection he and I have and he does too. We are just not sure what and how we can work together.
This is what consult T wrote to me today:
It feels so nice to have a "team". I've never had a team of support before.
Well basically, we identified a lot of what wasn't working. I told him that I set my computer so that his emails go directly to trash and asked him to do the same.
I told him I was taking two weeks off and told him about all the consults. I said I thought it was good for both of us to have a little space and regain our footing. I value the connection he and I have and he does too. We are just not sure what and how we can work together.
This is what consult T wrote to me today:
quote:I .... am so glad to hear that you are feeling better about yourself and your therapist. I think you have done excellent work with him. I am also hoping you can go on to do another piece of work with someone else.
quote:Let me know how these consults work. Hopefully there will be someone you connect to and like so that the "team" of helpers backing you up (now consisting of your therapist an me) can be enlarged to support you!
It feels so nice to have a "team". I've never had a team of support before.
((((CHEZZA))))
I read what you wrote yesterday but didn't get back here to respond because I had to work. I'm sorry. I really appreciated what you wrote and I'm sorry you are struggling so much right now. Sending love and hugs.
I read what you wrote yesterday but didn't get back here to respond because I had to work. I'm sorry.
I really appreciated what you wrote and I'm sorry you are struggling so much right now. Sending love and hugs.
I just wanted to share some parts of Dr. Sue Elkind's book for those of you who are struggling with self-doubt. I can't recommend Dr. Sue Elkind's book enough. Here is a passage I like:
"Within the medical model that has traditionally provided the framework for the therapeutic relationship, therapists have been viewed simplistically as experts who are psychologically healthy. Patients have been regarded equally simplistically as individuals who suffer and need help. But virtually all psychotherapists have also been patients in psychotherapy, often more than once. Many therapists have been patients in therapeutic relationships that ruptured in the face of unresolvable dilemmas. Because ruptured terminations are rarely talked about, either by therapists or patients, we have no information as to how therapists have assimilated and integrated these experiences, nor about how their disturbing personal experiences as patients have affected their attitude toward their work.
Analogously, patients often have accurate perceptions of the vulnerabilities of their therapists (and of themselves) that go unacknowledged or disconfirmed because psychological health tends to be located exclusively in the therapist. many of the problems that bring patients to psychotherapy have resulted from their efforts to heal and maintain the psychological stability of others, despite the personal cost involved.
..... predicaments in the therapeutic relationships have the best chance of being worked with constructively when the strengths and vulnerabilities of both participants, regardless of their role as patient or as therapist, are acknowledged and explored. A major challenge facing the profession of psychotherapy consists of finding constructive ways of including the vulnerabilities of psychotherapists without discrediting their capacity to help patients, as well as those of patients in understanding the experiences that occur within the therapeutic relationship. The most problematic impasses, wounding, and ruptures occur when patients' and therapists' vulnerabilities intersect in problematic ways. "
Mismatches:
AS the profession of psychotherapy expands the model of an expert therapist working with troubled patients to a more complex model of two individuals working with separate subjectivities interacting with and creating each other as they interact, the question of a mismatch, or a problematic fit between patient and therapist becomes both more complicated and more important. In the former model, a mismatch could only be understood as a lack of fit between the particular expertise of the therapist and the problem presented by the patient, as a consequence of a patient being "too disturbed" or as a result of a therapists lack of experience, use of faulty technique, or inadequate personal analysis. .... If a patient consulted with a therapist who had expertise in the appropriate area and could be assumed to apply that expertise effectively, but the therapeutic relationship did not seem helpful to the patient, the patient could only assume that the problem resided in her and that she might be beyond the pale of psychological help.
.... Currently, the burden rests too often with the patient, who is left to extricate herself from an unsatisfactory relationship without the therapist's support and encouragement. Because patients generally find it hard to hold a different opinion from that of their therapists, extricating themselves without their therapists approval is neither simple nor easy. "
Anyway, I could retype the whole book here. It's really excellent. Must read even if you are not in an impasse with your therapist.
"Within the medical model that has traditionally provided the framework for the therapeutic relationship, therapists have been viewed simplistically as experts who are psychologically healthy. Patients have been regarded equally simplistically as individuals who suffer and need help. But virtually all psychotherapists have also been patients in psychotherapy, often more than once. Many therapists have been patients in therapeutic relationships that ruptured in the face of unresolvable dilemmas. Because ruptured terminations are rarely talked about, either by therapists or patients, we have no information as to how therapists have assimilated and integrated these experiences, nor about how their disturbing personal experiences as patients have affected their attitude toward their work.
Analogously, patients often have accurate perceptions of the vulnerabilities of their therapists (and of themselves) that go unacknowledged or disconfirmed because psychological health tends to be located exclusively in the therapist. many of the problems that bring patients to psychotherapy have resulted from their efforts to heal and maintain the psychological stability of others, despite the personal cost involved.
..... predicaments in the therapeutic relationships have the best chance of being worked with constructively when the strengths and vulnerabilities of both participants, regardless of their role as patient or as therapist, are acknowledged and explored. A major challenge facing the profession of psychotherapy consists of finding constructive ways of including the vulnerabilities of psychotherapists without discrediting their capacity to help patients, as well as those of patients in understanding the experiences that occur within the therapeutic relationship. The most problematic impasses, wounding, and ruptures occur when patients' and therapists' vulnerabilities intersect in problematic ways. "
Mismatches:
AS the profession of psychotherapy expands the model of an expert therapist working with troubled patients to a more complex model of two individuals working with separate subjectivities interacting with and creating each other as they interact, the question of a mismatch, or a problematic fit between patient and therapist becomes both more complicated and more important. In the former model, a mismatch could only be understood as a lack of fit between the particular expertise of the therapist and the problem presented by the patient, as a consequence of a patient being "too disturbed" or as a result of a therapists lack of experience, use of faulty technique, or inadequate personal analysis. .... If a patient consulted with a therapist who had expertise in the appropriate area and could be assumed to apply that expertise effectively, but the therapeutic relationship did not seem helpful to the patient, the patient could only assume that the problem resided in her and that she might be beyond the pale of psychological help.
.... Currently, the burden rests too often with the patient, who is left to extricate herself from an unsatisfactory relationship without the therapist's support and encouragement. Because patients generally find it hard to hold a different opinion from that of their therapists, extricating themselves without their therapists approval is neither simple nor easy. "
Anyway, I could retype the whole book here. It's really excellent. Must read even if you are not in an impasse with your therapist.
Just wanted to let you all know that I had a consult today with someone very nice. I like her very much and think we might work together. I have an apt. in 2 weeks because I wasn't ready to make a commitment yet.
We mostly went over my history. I filled her in a little about my therapy and why I am planning on leaving T. She made a comment that I've been looking for caring and wound up learning how to take care of myself as well as take care of the other person over and over again - like I did with T, teaching him all about attachment. She also told me that I was terribly neglected. Always wonderful to get that validation.
We mostly went over my history. I filled her in a little about my therapy and why I am planning on leaving T. She made a comment that I've been looking for caring and wound up learning how to take care of myself as well as take care of the other person over and over again - like I did with T, teaching him all about attachment. She also told me that I was terribly neglected. Always wonderful to get that validation.