Oh I am so sorry for how you must be feeling OW. As you said before, your initials say a lot, but probably not the depth of it. (((OW)))

Loss is a part of life unfortunately, but when it is something we have to make by choice it it seems so contradictive to what we know to be good for ourselves. I don't know if that makes sense, I am in bit of a fog this morning. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that as hard as this is you seem to accept that it is necessary for your well being. And as with any loss and grief for loss, there is an end to it. So I hope that your grief will be as it needs to be though I wish it not be too painful.

I just wanted to let you know you have suport here and your T does sound like she is looking out for your best interest.
JM

OW,
I'm so sorry. I wish there was a way around the grief of loss. I can only imagine how you're feeling. I am so glad that giving your journal to your T provided her with an understanding of what you're going through. Being understood will really help, but I know you must feel heart-broken. If we can do anything at all, just ask. This will be a safe place to come and talk about all your feelings, whatever they are.

AG

((((OW)))) I am so sorry that there is no other way. It is so hard to let go of something when every feeling you have contradicts it but you know it is the best thing to do.

We are here with you and support you and recognize how deep your feelings go and honor that. Please post as often as you need and don't worry if it all makes sense. Thankfully since it is the weekend now more of us will be able to check in more often (like me ).

Group hug for (OW)!

quote:

Thankfully since it is the weekend now more of us will be able to check in more often (like me ).

It's ___always___ good to have you around when you can be River!

*dog piles into group hug* Sorry it's the inner child in me that likes to make an opportunity for rough housing out of everything.

Thank you JM, AG and River. I'm still not convinced this is the best thing, it just "is" and I have to accept it. Everything inside me is screaming not to.

I'm having a hard time posting anything more about this right now, but I wanted to thank you and let you know how good it felt to come back and read your replies. Each post gave me a good cry, well, except the dogpile post. That gave me a cyber bruise that may never go away!

And now I have to work my way out of this dogpile of cyber love so I can do some laundry and read some more posts.

OW

Hi OW,

I just wanted to chime in late to say I am also thinking of you and want to support you anyway I can. Of course, others are much more eloquent.

OW

Any loss is so difficult, no matter who it is or what the circumstances. I know how painful this is for you. Hang in there and keep posting so we can support you. And have a good cry whenever you need to. (Says the person who has great difficulty crying)

I'm right there with ya on the laundry. My three kids just came home from college and guess what they brought with them? Oh well, at least they are here.

PL

Thank you Incognito and PL (PL - I'm usually not a crier either, but this week it appears that I am).

Thanks to all of you who understand.

I can't share this pain with my husband or anyone else in my life. I'm glad I could share it here or I just might explode.

I saw my son's T at a Christmas party and it was hard. She was laughing and chatting with her friends/coworkers and I was thinking that that's all I want. Something so simple, it doesn't seem like too much to ask.

I'm pretty sure she has no idea how hard this is for me. Thoughts are racing through my mind about what she's thinking. She has to realize I haven't been pouring my heart out to her lately. I wonder if she's wondering why, or if she knows why and what she thinks of that. I wish she would ask or say something to me about it.

My T said that it sounds to her like I have fallen in love with my son's T. I told her I could see how she could think that, because my feelings are so strong, and because my journal was filled with paragraphs about my T because I was trying to understand what it was about her that brought out all these feelings. At times I was gushing about how wonderful she was. But there really is no romantic or physical attraction. When my T asked me if I was sure, I tried to think about it but, ew... it would be like if you asked if I had romantic feelings about my brother or sister... um, yuck, no.

I told my T that it would be easier if there was that sort of attraction. I've had feelings like that before for people that I guess has been some sort of transference, both male and female. But that "fantasy" helped me see that it wasn't real, and that I was projecting. The way I feel about my son's T is not like that. I really feel like she is my best friend (and yes, I know it's one-sided and that I'm not even her friend).

My T said it would be more typical if there was a physical attraction, and this doesn't seem to fit in a neat little box that's easy to explain in psychological terms. I've said all along, I think it's simple. I don't have any friends, I really needed one at the time, and she was there. As usual, I sabotaged myself from the beginning. I pick people who are no good for me so it ends badly, or I pick people who don't care as much as I do and don't (or in this case can't) stick around.

OW

OW -

I'm with you in that it felt just like I was falling in love with my T and no, there was no physical attraction (I thought about it too and just couldn't picture it at all) so I don't know if we are either both atypical or it is more typical than maybe your T realizes. Besides, how often does anything fit into a nice neat box? I would love it if more things did but life is just way too messy.

Anyway, people who haven't felt it have a really hard time understanding the depth of it and the "ya, it is weird but it is also not weird" thing too. I tried to explain it to my husband but even though I am pretty sure he doesn't think I've totally lost it he doesn't get it either. The only other person I have talked to about it was my mom and she understood. In fact for her it explained a lot of experiences that she has had in the past with friends, teachers, etc. She had never heard of transference and like someone who has been there, instantly had that "ah-ha" feeling when I told her about it.

I totally get that feeling like you sabotage yourself and try to be friends with people who are "unavailable." I do this unconsciously and when I compare experiences between real friends I have made and the people who I have been so strongly drawn to but it's only one-sided I realize that the unavailableness is part of what makes the magic happen. Because for me these people have been authority figures in my life. Mostly women, one man, who have been my bosses or pastors or now my T. People who know more than me and can teach me, inspire me, encourage me, and help me when I get stuck. I've had at least 4 or 5 of these "falling in love" experiences since becoming an adult and each one has been wonderful and painful because even though I can get a lot from these people they are also never really in a position to be a real friend because of a power differential. I think it is the power differential that heightens a friendly feeling into more of a "please save me" kind of feeling and I so desperately want someone to save me even though I know no one can. So, I don't know if this relates to your experience but seeing this in myself has helped me tame the transference beast some and put a lot of my feelings for these special people in perspective. It has also helped me recognize and pursue friendships with people that are attainable and on more equal ground.

Thanks River,

I'm pretty sure my husband would think I've lost it if I tell him. He still thinks I should just be able to get over my past, because it is my past and the people who hurt me so bad are dead. We're going to couples counseling and he may be starting to understand that, but I think this would just be too much for him to comprehend. I bet it really helps that your mother understands.

Most people I am drawn to are unavailable. Back when I was single I could make friends and talk so easily to guys who were married or dating someone seriously, because I knew I would never have to deal with romance and that sort of intimacy with them. I have had very strong attachments to teachers, a couple of bosses, and other authority figures. I guess I was looking for someone to guide me, not necessarily save me. And I really think I fell in love with my husband because, when we first started dating, I was already planning a move to another state. We just went out for fun, and it was very easy for me to get close because I knew I was moving thousands of miles away. I did end up moving, and then came back to be with him.

I'm working with my T on worrying about everything I say and do, and I am starting to understand why it's so hard for me to make friends. Whatever I do or say, I second-guess myself. I wonder how they are going to react, what they're going to think. I've learned not to talk so I don't worry about what I've said. I don't ask anyone to do anything so I don't have to worry about whether they'll say yes or no, or whether they'll say yes but don't really want to, or whether they'll say no because they really can't go at that time but then they'll feel guilty because they've said no. Some people tell me I worry too much .

OW

quote:

I'm working with my T on worrying about everything I say and do, and I am starting to understand why it's so hard for me to make friends. Whatever I do or say, I second-guess myself. I wonder how they are going to react, what they're going to think. I've learned not to talk so I don't worry about what I've said. I don't ask anyone to do anything so I don't have to worry about whether they'll say yes or no, or whether they'll say yes but don't really want to, or whether they'll say no because they really can't go at that time but then they'll feel guilty because they've said no. Some people tell me I worry too much

OW I feel for you and I understand how you feel! I used to smoke pot to avoid these sort of feelings but recently have quit and am sober. Here they come again. I am tripping all over myself trying to apologize before I even talk. It's so uncomfortable. BUt I also wanted to tell you that I have learned that this is part of Complex PTSD. (I am no professional and can not make diagnosis) but for me at least this is part of the symptoms. They call it constriction. I read about it in that book by Judith Herman called "Trauma and recovery"

Anyway I can relate so much with all you have said. I hope you are okay. I haven't seen you here in a while.

quote:

I'm working with my T on worrying about everything I say and do, and I am starting to understand why it's so hard for me to make friends. Whatever I do or say, I second-guess myself. I wonder how they are going to react, what they're going to think. I've learned not to talk so I don't worry about what I've said. I don't ask anyone to do anything so I don't have to worry about whether they'll say yes or no, or whether they'll say yes but don't really want to, or whether they'll say no because they really can't go at that time but then they'll feel guilty because they've said no. Some people tell me I worry too much

OW, I hear a lot of what you are saying, but this part especially touches me. I have been the same way my entire life. And WS, I never considered that this is part of being CPTSD. ...Food for thought.

I want to say that I am getting better in this regard as far as relationships go. I don't pull away as quickly when I start to feel inadequate or hurt in some way, or I at least catch myself doing it and stop myself, take a deep breath and work through it with whatever friend I am experiencing that with. My T has been quite a sounding and practicing board for this too. She is always pointing out my flawed thinking and skewed projecting. Yes, I even do it with her. I have learned a lot on this forum too and have made some very special friends here that help me see that misunderstandings naturally occur, feelings get hurt, toes get stepped on, and issues bump into eachother, and it can all be worked through. It doesn't have to mean the end anymore.

I keep thinking I need to read that book WS. Sounds like another good one.
JM

Thanks woodensoul, I'm OK. I'm here reading and trying to post, but some personal issues are getting a little intense so I'm doing more thinking than anything else. Today I took the day off from thinking and went hiking up a mountain. I'm exhausted but it was nice.

I've never been diagnosed with anything other than dysthymia. Of course I haven't asked my current T, and I assume CPTSD is a possibility given my childhood.

JM - Do your friends know you're feeling inadequate or hurt... do they help you get over that feeling or do you do it on your own without them being aware of it? I've never found anyone who I've been able to admit these feelings to who is sympathetic or understands, I guess. They have just told me I need to relax and not be so sensitive. So, I try to hide these feelings from everybody.

I can't even get to the point of misunderstandings anymore because just making a friend has been impossible for me. I don't even know if I know anymore how to make the jump from acquaintance to friend. My life seems so crazy right now that I'm finding it harder and harder to open up to anyone, except my T and you all here.

OW

quote:

They have just told me I need to relax and not be so sensitive.

I have been told this all my life by all sorts of people. It feels like they are telling me to grow 2" taller and erase all of my freckles so that I will then be able to "fit in." This is just who you are, and if you had been nurtured and protected properly while growing up your sensitivity and passion would feel like incredible assets that would draw others to you not shameful flaws that need to be hidden. I hate being sensitive and intense, it hurts most of the time and can be really inconvenient. But people actually like to be friends with sensitive people since it means that they will be seen and felt and not invisible. It is hard for us to settle down into friendships though, and even the slightest weirdness from somebody feels like a total rejection. I would love to tell you to embrace your sensitivity but I am not too good at embracing mine. Mostly I try to accept it as part of me and just try not to hate it so much.

I think acquaintances become friends when you take that risk to be real and share part of yourself with someone. Depending on the response you'll know where they are at. If you take a risk to go to a deeper level with someone and if they reciprocate then you have taken a step in the friendship direction. If not then you know to stop there, for now. It is risky and scary but I find planning ahead helps. I kind of keep an inventory of things that I don't tell every Tom, Dick or Harry I meet about myself, that are personal but in the "been dealt with" category so I know that any misunderstanding, rejection or even, heaven forbid, rumors won't be devastating. I know this sounds really calculated but I can't rush head long into what I hope will be friendships by handing over my more sensitive stuff. It is protection, moderation, testing the waters, learning to trust bit by bit no matter how desperately lonely I may feel. But if I don't risk anything, if I don't allow anyone a glimpse into my inner, tender self then they, most likely, won't risk anything either. People don't flock to me, I am introverted, shy, and socially awkward at times. I hate small talk and mingling at parties is absolute torture not to mention how much I dread making phone calls - any kind of phone calls. So, one thing I have come to except is that I have to work to make friends and put myself out there at much as I can stand. I have moved to a completely new town three times in the last 15 years and I have found that it takes me about 3 years somewhere before I feel like I have friends that I am really comfortable with. I've just past the 5 yr mark where I am now and I really hope that the bad economy doesn't force us to move. I really don't want to start all over. The good thing about everyone here is that wherever I may go, if I can get online then there you all are. What did we do before the internet? I ask myself that question almost daily!