mtf, i think you are right, this is more about her, i don't think i would tell her that part, as that will make her more defensive. i'm in kindof a similar spot, and i think my strategy is to encourage her, build her up, tell her what she does that DOES work, how you think so much of her and didn't understand what you were to feel when she said she was a dime a dozen, was she trying to soften your affections for her??? (assume there was a strategy that she had for that) i just think when i catch them empty handed, it will backfire. so build her up while asking what this was supposed to make you feel and how it ACTUALLY made you feel.

especially women, i don't think you back them into a corner on accountability, as they are crafty (soory, warning, my OWN personal view!!) but, like any human, build them up with 5 things and then ask a question about the 'hurt' as to what she was trying to get you to see.

i agree, this is her fraility coming forth, and, i must say, NONE of these t's get in this profession because they are superhuman....generally, again, my own theory, most get in to it trying to fix themselves. and their own personal hurts can help us, as surely they know the road, but NONE of us has it all figured out.

i think i tend to think they are superhuman, and can handle if i sloppily throw out all the things they do wrong, kind of in a 'cut to the chase' manner, but, i think for my t anyway, that will just make her not like me and defend herself a bit...just human, she is. and i am sure some of that is my INABILITY to be assertive. those words feel so mean to me...and i probably overinterpret how it feels to them if i am assertive..

EWWWWW!! MTF, i think i just proved why my advise is lousy, so take it with a mountain of salt!!

good luck, surely some truth in an assertive way is YOUR RIGHT!! ??? jill

Jill,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I don't think your advice is lousy. Your perspective is totally different than mine and that is why coming here is often very helpful to me. I have a very limited perspective and appreciate the different points of view I get from others. Thanks again!

MTF

quote:

She got this surprised look on her face, said, "Really?!" and then came the part that hurt. "I'm a dime a dozen." Which in the states means, "I'm nothing special, you can find someone else just like me practically anywhere."

OH MTF... this is MY T too. He tells me this ALL the time, most recently when he suggested I need a new T who can deal with my trauma better than he has done. He said if I can connect with him then I can connect with ... well anyone... I guess. He just does not GET that my connection with him is different and special and unique and maybe I could find some kind of connection with another male T, but it would not be HIM and he is NOT interchangeable with just any old T out there. I'm sorry but I just don't believe a person connects with any T that they meet. I have seen on here that so many are struggling to find a T that they feel connected to. Those close, connected intimate relationships that we build with certain T's are special and there is a special limbic resonance to them. My T can calm my nervous system by just looking deeply into my eyes. As a parent would calm their upset or scared child. That is what he does for me and he just can't understand how important this is to heal my attachment wounds.

So I feel for you MTF in hearing those words. Sort of hurts hearing them devalue themselves and the relationship. And so, you probably need to tell her that. I know this is hard stuff but it's hurting you inside and she needs to understand that. You feelings about her are very valid and are real and not ones you feel for just anyone. A friend of mine always reminds me that we come to know ourselves through relationships and the one we have with our T is the most special one of all. I just wish they would take it as seriously as it deserves to be.

Good luck and I'll be thinking of you.

TN

(((((((MTF)))))))

FWIW I don't think you are making too much out of this. Your T tried to move into the attachment work with you (which is great! ) but you didn't feel safe first. And when you went ahead anyway and told her how special you think she is, she responded from her own stuff (the dime a dozen remark), which made you feel like you needed to take care of her. I can really understand why those two conditions would make you spin.

Just a suggestion - maybe you could start with these two points - that you need to feel safe in order to do the attachment work (and maybe think about/discuss what would help you feel safe), and that you want to look at why you are attaching to her the way you are, and what that says about you, and not necessarily whether you are "right" about her.

BTW I don't mean that last part as if to say she's not special...I agree with you that no one is a "dime a dozen"...rather I mean it as a way to get the focus off of her, and back on to you and your therapy.

Good luck, MTF...I'll be thinking of you tomorrow...keep us posted!

Lots of hugs,
SG

((((MTF))))
Thinking of you!!

Thinking of you and hoping that the session goes well. ((((MTF))))

MTF - hoping it is going well! I hope you get some chance to talk with her about just what you wrote about here - that in a way is talking about the relationship. The way she moved into "so you want to do attachment work" mode is a little weird - attachment tranferance all that - happens in all kind of relationships including theraputic! addressing it more 'formally' marte - but in any relationship, you should be able to talk about that relationship itself, especially theraputic. She may not be trying to slight you, and she might be doing just that - she may just be fumbling around... oh, I hope it goes well - do let us know!

jill, TN, SG, SB, STRM, and JD,

Thanks for the replies and support. I just got back from my session and I'm feeling a LOT better. It took me awhile to be able to bring up the remark she made about her being a dime a dozen, but I think that I needed to be at a place where I was more comfortable before I brought it up, so that was okay. She got glasses Monday, so it was really different looking at her through an 'obstacle', so to speak. Not that glasses are an obstacle or anything. I wear them myself at times, but it was just different to have her eyes sort of obscured by them, since I depend a lot on her eyes for that limbic connection. I'm sure I'll get used to it, it was just sort of weird.

She was okay with me not wanting to read her the book stuff out loud today. That's when she asked me where I wanted to go and what I wanted to talk about. So I opened up the issue about her 'dime a dozen' remark. I asked her what it meant to her, and what it was supposed to mean to me. She said she doesn't want me putting her on a pedestal. She doesn't want me to see her as Wonder Woman, or as having super human traits. She doesn't want to disappoint me. She said maybe it (the dime a dozen remark) was an overstatement. Gee, ya think??? She seemed sorry for saying it. She said it had to do with her, not me, that she doesn't want to hurt me, doesn't want me to put all of my hopes in one person and think that she can make everything okay. It had a lot to do with the elephant in the room. So she admitted that it was about her feeling inadequate and not liking being made into an 'icon' (a word she used) and that it is going to take both of us working together on this. She helped me feel like she accepts my attachment issues, which has been a HUGE concern of mine for a long time. I felt like she genuinely cares about me and our relationship and working through this. She wants to figure out and look at what draws me so strongly to certain types of people, what I see in them (although I KNOW I'm still going to have issues with talking about HER), and help me identify these things on my own so I can be aware and mindful and avoid relationships with people that trigger these schemas in my life, or at the very least try to minimize contact with those people.

This is the stuff that is going to be hard for me. This is the stuff that I really want to avoid in therapy, especially the stuff that relates to her because it brings up a lot of shame about myself and who I am. Attachment issues are really shameful for me. I feel so bad about myself for needing other people, and for needing them 'so much'. She told me that I'm okay. That I need to stop seeing myself as a freak, that I'm NOT a freak. That when deep needs are not met we go looking to have them met and will seek for their satisfaction usually in people who are 'familiar' to us, or in some cases in people that are the opposite of what is familiar.

She asked me too how much of my depression was what: kids, husband, living situation, attachment stuff? She wanted me to give her a percentage and I couldn't because if I had been honest I would have had to say that the attachment stuff was about 70%, and that is humiliating to me. I don't want her to know that my relationship with her affects me that much, that she is THAT important to me. What can she do about it anyway?

She tried really hard the whole session to connect with me, to help me feel her care and to feel safe. I really feel a lot better after today's session than I felt after the last one. She didn't try to push me today, and I think she realized after last time that pushing me like she did backfired. I got a lot of encouragement, a lot of validation and acknowledgement and praise and it felt really good. I think (or at least I hope) that things are going to get better from here.

MTF

Thanks sounds really hopseful MTF!!! good job for talking with her about what she said and dealing with it head on!

This was SO wonderful to read, MTF!!! Woo-hoo!! Party in the Psych Cafe Woods!!



SG

TRIGGER WARNING: THIS POST INCLUDES MATERIAL THAT MAY BE TRIGGERING TO THOSE HAVING ISSUES WITH THEIR Ts OR WHO STRUGGLE WITH ATTACHMENT OR BOUNDARIES.


Just wanted to update for my own benefit, so no need to read, and warning--it's long and detailed. I had another session with my T yesterday. She was wearing the interchangeable jewelry watchband I gave her a couple months ago along with a thank you card. It looked really good on her and made me happy to see that she liked it enough to wear it, and that she would wear it at least once so that I could see her wearing it. She later told me she's had a lot of compliments on it.

I had a great week after seeing her the last time, but then came my 'off' week when she should have called me. Well, she didn't. I started that week by telling myself that she might not call because she has missed calling me in the past. Of course I always have this tiny shred of hope that she might call me, and it's that little shred that just kills me when the call doesn't come. By Friday I was spinning on old stuff that my mind had kicked up from day one of my therapy with my T, all the old judgment, criticism, rejection, abandonment fears, everything my mind has created or read or imagined or feared started spinning around in my mind and sent me spiralling downward. My T could tell within the first few seconds of interaction with me that I was down and something was wrong. It took me a few minutes before I could even talk. I always freeze up when something is wrong and needs to come out and when she asks me about it I just sit there and don't know what to say or how to say it. The silence is so awkward. She was patient with me but she's not one that is willing to sit there in silence for very long. I finally told her it was attachment stuff. She asked if it was something she had or hadn't done and I told her it was about the lack of a phone call. She thought she HAD called me. That was 3 weeks ago! Poor woman is up to her eyeballs in work. They have started doing e-charts instead of paper for all new patients, so she discharged a bunch of people in July and started a bunch of new patients, and now she has to hand write all the notes in session and then later enter them all into the computer into the e-chart system. She's been at the hospital until 10 or 11 p.m. some nights because she's computer illiterate and struggles to figure the thing out (she's 67 and computers aren't her thing). Anyway, she apologized and said she would make sure not to forget me again, as she could see the distress that her inconsistency was causing me. I feel stupid that I 'need' that phone call from her, and told her that I would be okay if she didn't call, I just need consistency one way or the other, and she said that I clearly DO need the call and she is fine with calling me.

She asked me what else was bothering me. I told her I was still upset about her 'dime-a-dozen' comment from a couple sessions back. I guess what it boils down to is that I still, after all this time, feel like she doesn't really accept my feelings for her or rather my attachment to her, as being okay. I feel like I make her uncomfortable or creep her out or something. She asked me why a trite comment about herself would bother me so much. I told her that God doesn't make dime-a-dozen people. Then she started again with how she doesn't want to disappoint me, doesn't want me putting her on a pedestal, that she is afraid that she'll let me down like others have let me down in the past and she doesn't want to do that to me. She thinks she is very ordinary, no different than other people, than her colleagues. She leads a pretty ordinary life; a comfortable life, she's happy, but it's nothing spectacular. She really feels like I've put her out there as being extraordinary, and she doesn't want that. I told her I don't see her as extraordinary. She said that telling her that she's not like anyone else I know was putting her pretty far out there as being extraordinary. I told her that she didn't even bother to ask me what I meant in the moment, she didn't question me about what that really meant about her from my point of view; instead she just stopped me and dropped that comment in my lap as if to say, "I don't like your feelings and I don't want to hear anymore". She saw her mistake in that and then came the dreaded moment: she asked me what I meant. She wanted to know what about her makes her like no one else I know. My brain instantly took leave without permission. I froze solid and couldn't even think. I don't know if that is dissociation or what but I felt absolutely stupid and like my brain had fallen out of my head and rolled away. She pressed me for a response and I told her I didn't want to talk about that stuff. I wish I had told her that my brain had just frozen on me, as I'm sure she would have been a bit more sympathetic. Instead she got a bit frustrated with me and told me it wasn't really fair that she had just obliged me in what I had asked of her and now I wasn't willing to do the same for her. That's when I totally shut down in shame and frustration. My stupid mind wouldn't cooperate and work and I couldn't do anything about it. I just sat there feeling totally numb. After a few minutes she asked me what I was feeling and I told her I didn't know. Then I started to cry. She put my chart down on the desk beside us and asked me if what I was feeling was similar to something I've felt before. That's when the floodgates opened. She came right up to me in her chair and took my hand in both her hands and of course I really freaked then. She asked me what I was feeling. "I'm not okay.", meaning I'm not okay with her, but I don't think she got the meaning of what I was saying. I am too afraid to put it that way to her. She told me that I AM okay, several times. She wanted to know if this dime-a-dozen comment issue has affected me a lot the past few weeks and I told her it has. She said I needed to let my husband know that it has been her fault and not his. She said she was sorry, and wondered if I really wanted to continue. That is what kicks up the fear for me and I finally told her that. That when she says things like that where she's infering that maybe she should transfer me to another T that I feel like what she's saying is that she wants to be rid of me. She said no, that's not what she means at all, but that she wants what is best for me, she wants me to have my needs met and to see me heal. She thinks she can help me if I am willing to help her. She just worries about letting me down, and pointed to her dime-a-dozen comment and the pain it has caused me as an example of how easily she can let me down. She admitted that she's not sensitive to my sensitivity and the things she might say that could hurt me or send me spinning. It's so hard to feel her care for me and know she really wants to help me, and at the same time sense that she almost feels inadequate and wonders if she's up to the task. I so desperately want her to be able to help me. I don't want another T--I just want her, and I'm willing to forgive her mistakes and her humanity because I know she has my best interest at heart and truly does want to help me. It's so hard though to sense that she wonders if she is doing me more harm than good.

She gave me her phone number to her direct line in her office that would give me her voice mail and bypass the secretary. She wants me to call and leave her a message if ANYTHING bugs me after sessions so that things don't escalate to where I'm spinning or ruminating on them for the two weeks between sessions. She wants to 'rewind the tape' as she put it, so she can repair the damage before more damage is done. She told me that I have to stop giving her my power and living at her mercy--that that is what I do when I spin on things she says or does, and she doesn't even know it. That I give other people my power and that it is self-destructive. Even saying that I hate the attachment stuff gives it so much power. I'm trying to grasp that concept, but I do see what she is saying. She told me she would never intentionally hurt me, that she was so sorry, and asked me if I could forgive her for making such a flippant remark. She said she's not going to bail on me and asked me if I believe her, and I do. I really sensed her care and concern for me and again felt a bit more like I truly AM okay with her. I'm beginning to see and understand where her apparent discomfort has been coming from all this time and it's helping me to understand my T a bit better.

Anyway, I've written a novel. I'm feeling better about my relationship with my T. Not so rocky anymore, I guess the fears are slowly being chipped away at little by little. I'm trusting her more and feel safer with her now than I have ever before, and it feels good. At the end she told me she had something for me. She pulled out a watchband that she had made out of her mother's jewelry that she inherited when her mother died this past winter. It was one I know was leftover from all the ones she made for her daughters and nieces because she's shown it to me before, but I thought it was really sweet that she was offering me the last one. She wanted to see if it fit, so I took off the watch I was wearing and she switched out the bands herself. It fit perfectly. I think she was happy to be 'even' with me. We gave each other a good hug and she made sure (again) that I forgave her before she let me go. I feel much more peace today than I have felt for a long time and I'm thankful that although my T isn't perfect and has her fair share of flaws, she does care and is doing what she can to help me.

MTF

Wow, MTF... I'm happy for you that you got a bit of closure on this huge rupture you've had with your T lately, though I'm sorry it's been such a hard and long journey before you got to this point. What she said about saying that your hate for attachment stuff gives it power makes me wonder if she possibly avoided it to take away that power? Maybe she thought that by directly addressing it, it's power and it's presence in general, would give it more power than it should have and ultimately hurt your therapy. Just wondering..

One thing I just wanted to comment on was that I feel a little distressed for you that your T doesn't give you patience in times where you feel the need to be silent. It's hard to strike a balance, though, because my T always gives me time whenever I'm quiet and pretty much leaves it up to me to speak, which becomes a bit of a vicious cycle, because the more time that goes by that I'm quiet, the more my brain starts running around trying to think of something to say. Most of the time that's the case, but sometimes I also feel my brain just shut down and the silence is welcomed, because I know my T will give me time to try and find my way back. I don't know if you feel this way or not, but I find myself wishing for you that your T would either recognize the block/freeze that happens with you and help you work past it or just let you have the silence and not feel so rushed to give an answer.

I think it's also a really good step that she gave you her direct line - I'm sure any T out there would admit that they will always let us down somehow, because those triggers are different for every person, but giving you the ability to let her know when it happens and a way to work it out more immediately is such a good way to repair and/or prevent damage. Maybe through being able to let her know more immediately after you feel any hurt regarding something she says will help her become more attuned to you and more sensitive to your sensitivity. That seems like such an important thing for your therapy, and it seems like this is also a step to help improve her ability to gauge you and your feelings and reactions.

It's touching, many of the things she told you and the gift she gave you. I'm so relieved for you and feel a sort of warmth through your post regarding your relationship with your T.

Big hugs,
K

Kashley, Dragonfly & Provocative Girl,

Thanks for your responses to my post!

K:

quote:

What she said about saying that your hate for attachment stuff gives it power makes me wonder if she possibly avoided it to take away that power? Maybe she thought that by directly addressing it, it's power and it's presence in general, would give it more power than it should have and ultimately hurt your therapy.

I have wondered the same thing. She has avoided it time and time again until I really addressed it very forcefully in the letter I gave her last. I think she may have realized that my attachment issues weren't going anywhere and that they were really a huge issue that needed to be dealt with head on. If that was her thinking, it definitely didn't work!

quote:

I also feel my brain just shut down and the silence is welcomed, because I know my T will give me time to try and find my way back. I don't know if you feel this way or not, but I find myself wishing for you that your T would either recognize the block/freeze that happens with you and help you work past it or just let you have the silence and not feel so rushed to give an answer.

Yes, this is exactly what I wish my T would do. I always freak out because I know she's going to basically say "time's up!". Then I have to come up with something like I did when I told her I didn't want to talk about that stuff, which wasn't really true. I just didn't have the time to come back to my senses (if that would have even happened, I don't know) so I could have actually answered her. Now I'm feeling like there's an important question that she asked that needed to be answered but got left unanswered and still needs to be resolved and I have to wait for almost 2 weeks to resolve it. And opening that subject up again to start into it is going to be really awkward. I think I need to tell her that she needs to give me enough time to collect my thoughts and not push me because that just makes me feel frantic and panicky.

Thanks K for being relieved for me! I am feeling a lot more connected to my T, and that is definitely a good thing!


Draggers:

When did you officially change your screen name? Guess I've been in a hole. Thanks for your supportive comments. Yes, it's been painful to get where I'm at now, but I'm feeling a lot better about things finally. Not great, but better, and that's a good thing! I'll take it!! Thank you for continuing to support me in my journey. Hugs to you, too!


PG:

Yes, idealizing gets the ball rolling for attachment and transferece issues for a lot of us, I think. I am finding that to be the start of my attachment issues, however I do not know how to avoid it. At least I have recognized at long last where it all begins! Glad my 'stuff' has been of some use to you.


MTF

MTF,

I am so glad that you were able to resolve this rupture with your T. Your description of your session was so moving. Thank you for sharing it here. I hope that things move forward from this point in a positive way. It sounds like it was a really good session and that you can now move forward with your T.

Monte,

quote:

MTF

I'm smiling cos I know you'll be happy to hear from me.

I'm smiling because you know me a little too well! LOL!

quote:

Gosh, despite her insufficiencies in some areas (I mean that nicely, as in we all have them - even Ts), this lady cares about you and is really wanting you to see that.

You may both continue to struggle with the attachment stuff and it's impact but it won't be because she doesn't care or isn't interested...clearly. Glad to see you have had positive movement in your relationship with her.

Thanks. It's nice to have another's perspective on all of this rather than just my own.

It's been so good to not be spinning on my fears and on the relationship these past couple of weeks. Now I just have to make it past this next session next Wednesday. I've got to get those feelings out there that I couldn't last time, and it's scaring me just thinking about it. But I think it will be okay. Thanks for taking the time to make me smile!


STRM,

Thanks, I think things will keep moving positively. At least it is my hope that they will.


UV,

quote:

By the way, I am extremely fearful of my upcoming session with T...because he touched on one of my core issues last week.

But I am actually relieved that he did this as it makes me feel like he is being a 'good parent'...trying to help me overcome my fears.

Funny how we can be both fearful and relieved at the same time, huh? Good luck!

MTF

Just another update. Saw my T again Wednesday. She wanted to get into the book, which I've been dreading. It's called "Reinventing Your Life". I had to read it by specific chapter when I first started therapy with her last September based on scores calculated from a questionnaire I had to fill out. It's based on schemas or what the authors call 'lifetraps'. It's very CBT based, and I don't like it. Bawled my eyes out reading it to her the first time around. I had to highlight all the stuff that applied to me and read that stuff to her. It sucked. So this time around since we're now working on attachment stuff, she wanted me to go back through the 3 chapters we had done previously and use a different color highlighter and highlight the stuff that applies to me within my attachment to her, what relates to my relationship with my husband, and that that I had with my physical therapist neighbor. This is awful and quite uncomfortable. The titles of the chapters are "Emotional Deprivation", "Abandonment", & "Mistrust & Abuse".

I didn't get a whole lot of stuff read. She kept interrupting here and there to talk to me about the different things I would read. Unfortunately I don't remember a whole lot of what she talked about. I think I was sort of in a frozen state, due to the fact that I was having to talk to her about stuff that kind of had to do with her and it was freaking me out a little. She has her theories about where my attachment issues stem from, so she talked a little about that. She told me about her own childhood emotional deprivation which was pretty bad. Obviously she's worked through it and healed that stuff, so I can too. She had an attachment to a teacher in Jr. High that kind of 'saved' her in a lot of ways. He served as a sort of surrogate parent when hers were unavailable and unnattentive. This went on for a year and a half until he moved to another state, which she said broke her heart. He had encouraged her to go out for different things at school, supported her in them, was her 'cheerleader' or sorts. She said he was newly married and had a young baby plus was a full time teacher, so for him to do what he did for her she considered to be pretty phenomenal. It's sort of weird having a T who has had similar issues in her own past. She normalizes my attachments pretty well for me, which is so nice. She doesn't let me use the words 'screwed up', or even 'messed up', as she views attachments as our way of getting needs met that weren't, and that it's healthy that we're trying to get those needs met, not sick and abnormal. We're just going about it the wrong way or oftentimes with the wrong people, or people that simply can't meet those needs for whatever reason.

Things are still feeling good. At the end she asked me if she had said anything that had made me mad, just to be sure I wasn't going to leave and then start spinning on something. I told her no, as she seems to be more attuned to me lately and really trying hard to connect every session. She gets up close to me in her chair and does the eye-contact thing, since I think she has noticed that I am much more open and more willing to talk when she is in closer proximity to me. She asked if there was anything else and I told her no, since we were already about 10-15 minutes over time. I did however pull out a handmade card for her that I had worked on during the week before my session. I handed it to her and told her it contained the answers to the question about what made her different from other people in my life. She seemed sort of pleased that she was going to get the answers. She started to open the envelope but I told her it was kind of long, but then said it wasn't 5 pages and wouldn't take her 45 minutes to read. We both laughed at that, as that was what my last letter to her was like.

So I went home and stewed over the card. What would she think? It was basically my way of telling her all of the good stuff I see in her, what I think about her. Not really my feelings, like "I love you", "I wish you could be my adopted mother", or anything like that. More like my perceptions. Like "I see you as a female ideal with this trait, this characteristic, this gift, and this talent, etc." I just put her admirable qualities out there and told her all the things I admire about her and see in her. Then I told her the few things that make her extra special to me, the things that are totally unique to her and stand out to me, as she told me she is just ordinary, put herself on par with her colleagues, and made herself seem like she could be easily replaced with someone else just like her. Grrrrr! I made sure to emphasize that she's the one-and-only her, that God doesn't have a mold of each of us so he can make more if he wants to! We're each unique and one-of-a-kind. Anyway, I wanted to make my feelings about her known in a sort of non-direct, non-threatening way (for both of us), and also get my last word in on her beliefs about herself that came up from the dime-a-dozen comment.

I was pretty sure she wouldn't say anything about the card, as she hadn't ever mentioned the thank you card I had given her in the past. I just worried about how awkward I would feel the next time I have a session with her, which isn't for almost 3 weeks. My cell phone rang at a little after 9 this morning and it was my T. She said she wanted to thank me for the card, that it was beautiful and that she appreciated it. She sounded like she was getting choked up at one point and was kind of fumbling around for what to say. I don't even remember exactly what she said or what else was said, but the feelings evoked in me during that 30 second phone call were priceless and so worth the risk I felt I was taking in sharing those things with my T. I felt overall like she was very touched and moved to know that as difficult as it was for me to share that with her, I value her enough to do it. I also felt like she was very touched by the things I wrote about her, that she must not get that sort of thing very often and that it meant a great deal to her. I've been enjoying those feelings all day and feeling grateful for the knowledge that my T accepts my feelings and me both. It makes me happy.

MTF

MTF it was a pleasure to read your post - after all the pain and confusion you’ve been going through, and sticking with it no matter what - your struggles have paid off. And now you’re both ready to go into the ‘sticky places’ as Monte says.

Good one MTF, big smiles for you.

LL