Russ,

Well, theoretically I have a back-up T. We tried to have a few joint sessions to get things comfortable before my T went on vacation and I freaked out every time that this other T was in my T's office. I couldn't ever get comfortable. So, I have not actually seen this other T myself (she is seeing my son though).

However, I think that it will be interesting to see how things go with bakT while your T is gone. I think ultimately that you have to go with your gut on this one and if you feel that you might be better served to see this other T as your main T (at least for a time) then I think that is ok. It doesn't have to mean that you burn the bridge with your T, but rather a situation of looking at things with a fresh pair of eyes.

Good luck with your sessions with bakT. I hope that they are helpful and that you get a clear idea of what the right thing to do is. Please keep us posted!!

in trying to make the best of a bad situation (my t track record...four in one year) i am seeing that they all have their style, and their way, and, after awhile, nine months with my first, i think i got all he had for me. each subsequent t has had a new angle on me, as i am in a different place than where i was when i started. so, from my jaded eyes, i see a fresh perspective as good. yes, you have to go through some of the old stuff, but, it isn't as bad as i feared, and doesn't take as long...and i gather, you are already through the initial stages of catching him up to you.

i would be curious how they would view this switch. i am so concerned of hurting feelings, but, really, you are the one paying the bills, so they should have no problem.

there are frustrations, i am sure, with every t's personality, some ARE more cheerful and friendly.

you appear to have frustrations with your t that haven't changed, yes, i know he is really patient, and accepts alot of the harder emotions you have gone through. and i will say, i don't think they all can do that without getting narcissistically damaged by anger that may be indirectly placed on them through transference. so, that your t can deal with that IS alot, and not to be traded lightly.

maybe you don't have to make it a 'formal change' of t's, but just ride this one out a bit and see where it goes. and, really, that is all you can do...i just have been riding one wave until it either dies or another better wave comes by. not to trivialize your situation, but, you do somewhat have to 'play life by ear'...if that makes sense??

but i would sure have a hard time walking away from back up t if he felt right.



good luck, jill

Hi Russ,
It’s good to see you around again! I really understand how you’re feeling. My old T overlapped for almost two years with my present T. I was still seeing my first T (T1) whom I had been going to for a very long time when my husband and I started couples’ counseling with my present T (T2). Things had been stuck for a little while with T1. We were continuing to do good work but there was some stuff we couldn’t seem to get near no matter what we did. (I eventually figured it out but not really important here). Well, I remember hitting a point where it felt like I was getting more from our couples’ sessions than I was from my individual sessions. I was coming away with more insight, and feeling clearer about things. I felt REALLY guilty about this. I had been seeing T1 on and off for over 20 years and she was a wonderful T who had been through so much with me and taught me so much. I felt like I was betraying her by feeling that way and couldn’t get up the nerve to tell either therapist about it. You know, come to think of it, I STILL don’t think I’ve told either T. Right about that time, T1 announced her retirement from clinical work. Which was difficult but we had plenty of time and processed it all and had a very good ending.

I eventually ended up working with T2 for individual work. And this is hard to admit, but I’ve come further in three years with him than I think I went in the last 8-10 years with T1. Mainly because T2 recognized my attachment injury and once I had a good understanding of that, the work really took off. I also think that T2 is my perfect theraputic match for lack of a better term.

There’s actually a reason why I’m telling you all this. (So get to it already!!) Which is that I don’t think I would ever have been able to bring myself to leave T1 but that her retirement allowed me to go work with T2 which turned out to be a very good thing. So I can understand why this is a struggle for you, especially since you’ve had a long, significant relationship with your T. But, in the end, therapy is supposed to be all about the patients’ needs and one of the difficult boundaries that a therapist has to handle is being able to hear from the client if the client feels the need to move on. I know this will be highly uncomfortable but really pay attention to how you’re feeling working with Tbak during your T’s vacation. Especially as to whether or not you are experiencing relief of some of your symptoms. If that’s true, I would consider talking to both of them about you switching. Your T has always sounded like he’s had your best interests at the forefront as a good T should and so I think would be honest about whether he sees this as a defensive move on your part or if Tbak is just a better theraputic match for you. In other words, this isn't about how much you care about your T or if he cares for you, it's about you experiencing a healing right brain connection. And Tbak could also give you some feedback on his opinion of how well you work together. In the end, what is important is that you get what you need to heal. My present T once told me that therapists don’t find patients, patients find therapists. You are entitled to at least look at this.

AG

STRM, DF, jill and AG,

Thanks everyone for your wonderful responses. I agree with everything you all have said.

I will respond with more detail after I've met with bakT this afternoon, but I'm really, really, really interested to hear what he has to say about the fact that, despite having gained a lot of insight into myself and my history, and having gotten a better idea of the conditions under which my symptoms get worse, and the fact that, as jill says, all of the positives about my T shouldn't be traded lightly...despite all of that, I still feel lousy most of the time, and does he think that could be do to me not making the full connection that I need to with my T for various reasons.

I will report back as soon as I can. And again, thanks everyone so much.

Russ

So I had a nice session with bakT. I talked about how I feel my progress is at an impasse because of what I feel is my T's lack of warmth, etc, and that this is keeping me from being able to really connect with him and therefore keeping me stuck.

To that, bakT essentially responded with what all good psychodynamically trained T's might say...that this conflict IS the therapy. Ugh. I'm getting so tired of that answer. It doesn't get me anywhere, and I'm not sure what I'll do about it.

Then he said, "it's pretty clear to me that the attachment you fear that you need and don't have is actually right there. Sure, Dr. T isn't complying with your wishes for him to be different, but the point is for you to see that this isn't the first time you didn't get your needs fulfilled, and feeling the original unfulfillment through this one is how you get to an accurate picture of your beginnings, and that cuts through the myth of your family and your origins to some truth and, hopefully, to a clearer understanding of why you feel such despair and pain now."

It was really nice to chat with this man. It's nice to get the perspective of another therapist about my therapist. He made some good points, too, one being that my T doesn't have the answers to my problems, that he's more of a companion than a guide on a journey, and that the difficult truth of the matter is that there are no answers before the answers make themselves apparent.

When I gave him my background and the situation around the onset of my symptoms he said, "it's almost tempting to say that there's a very clear cause and effect going here because your psychology is very well organized - it makes a lot of sense based on what you've told me. But as you've said, understanding concepts and ideas isn't the same as knowing and changing."

Anyway, it was interesting. I'm seeing him again next Thursday.

Russ

quote:

"it's pretty clear to me that the attachment you fear that you need and don't have is actually right there. Sure, Dr. T isn't complying with your wishes for him to be different, but the point is for you to see that this isn't the first time you didn't get your needs fulfilled, and feeling the original unfulfillment through this one is how you get to an accurate picture of your beginnings, and that cuts through the myth of your family and your origins to some truth and, hopefully, to a clearer understanding of why you feel such despair and pain now."

well put, bakT, something to ponder over myself, as i watch on the sidelines. good luck russ, i guess, two good options...keep talking it out...i do enjoy a man's perspective, too. jill

Hi Russ - I’ve read your posts with interest, as that’s always my concern with therapists too - I’m always searching for some elusive connection - warmth, kindness, caring whatever from a T and never seem to find it.

I was kind of hoping your back up T would agree to taking you on, but after reading his comments yeah what he says makes sense. And clarifies something going on for me with latest new T - I find him cold and detached and not kind or caring at all - but in fact that suits me because the thing I’m needing most at this point to deal with is all the rage, anger, resentment, frustration and the underlying neediness that causes those angry feelings that I’ve spent my life controlling and trying to get rid of. And that my T appears so cold and uncaring really fires up those angry feelings and bit by bit I’m being able to express them to him. As in - openly criticizing and being negative towards him from a ‘I demand/want/expect/need’ position - which so far he has coped with really well.

The bottom line of course being that he’s not giving me all the nice fuzzy warm things I’m craving and wanting and that’s giving me the (incredibly painful and ‘I don’t want to feel this crap’) impetus to reveal the demanding needy raging me - precisely to deal with the not getting (and no prizes for making the connection between T and my own father .

So all that Russ is to say - maybe that’s where you need to go with your T next? Maybe now it’s time to express the anger directly at your T for not giving you what you need? The premise being that though he’s NOT going to suddenly give you what you need, he will be able to withstand all your rage and frustration and pain of the not getting. I know you’ve written about being angry at your T before and that you’re fully aware of your anger at your father - I guess I’m thinking that that anger, if you take it all the way, will get you in touch with the unmet needs underneath, and with your T you then have a chance to work through it all - instead of having to stay stuck in endlessly needing what you should have gotten years ago.

Anyway that’s how I feel about what I’m doing with new T - that every word every gesture every instance of what I perceive in him as denying me what I need and want - is fodder for an attack on him for not giving what I’m wanting, and allows me to face the depth of my wanting safely and in understanding and acceptance. That’s the theory anyway.

Hope that makes sense, I don’t seem able to get things clear in words so much these days.

By the way, didn’t your T clear off on hols only a few weeks ago? He sure takes a lot of breaks! Hope your next session with bakT goes well too.

LL

hey LL,

Thanks for the reply.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
The bottom line of course being that he’s not giving me all the nice fuzzy warm things I’m craving and wanting and that’s giving me the (incredibly painful and ‘I don’t want to feel this crap’) impetus to reveal the demanding needy raging me - precisely to deal with the not getting (and no prizes for making the connection between T and my own father .

Yeah, we're in the same boat here, I think. Still, it'd be nice to not be treated like some anonymous person. I mean, I got an email from bakT confirming our appointment this week. It was a short, one-sentence email, but he greeted me with, "Hi Russ," and signed off using his first name. When my T gets back, I'm gonna tell him how much that means to me, and that I think it sucks that he seems incapable of that kind of simple but important act of warmth and respect.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
So all that Russ is to say - maybe that’s where you need to go with your T next? Maybe now it’s time to express the anger directly at your T for not giving you what you need? The premise being that though he’s NOT going to suddenly give you what you need, he will be able to withstand all your rage and frustration and pain of the not getting.

Actually, I do this all the time. I tell him regularly how much he pisses me off and how much I hate his demeanor and his pointing out that I have a hard time opening up to him when he gives me nothing to connect with. Oh yeah, this happens all the time. Of course, he doesn't change and neither do I. I still have the position of, "well, if you're gonna be a cold fish, then whatever. Bite me."

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
Anyway that’s how I feel about what I’m doing with new T - that every word every gesture every instance of what I perceive in him as denying me what I need and want - is fodder for an attack on him for not giving what I’m wanting, and allows me to face the depth of my wanting safely and in understanding and acceptance. That’s the theory anyway.

I know. That's the theory. It's a theory that I'm starting to really dislike and plan on challenging vigorously

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
By the way, didn’t your T clear off on hols only a few weeks ago? He sure takes a lot of breaks!

No kidding. He's taken 6 weeks already this year. What the hell, man? How much vacation do you NEED?

Thanks again, LL. Keep me informed about how things go with your T. My next appt with bakT is Thursday and I am looking forward to it.

Russ

Hi again Russ - yeah I tend to agree with you - it gets pretty tiring being treated anonymously, as you describe. A bit of warmth, a smile, a genuine sense of being pleased to see me - that would go a long way to making me feel like it’s really me T is seeing and not client number 1003.

I’ve been trying to follow my own ‘advice’ above - letting T know that I’m feeling annoyed at him, trying to explain what he’s said/not said that is getting up my nose - it’s sort of backfired a bit in that I felt quite told off for ‘not letting him be himself’ (quote unquote). Huh!!! What about letting ME be MYself eh eh eh? In the moment I just didn’t respond to my own irritation/anger soon enough to get it out there, so I’ve ended up coming home and realizing it all after the event. Got trapped in trying to figure out how I was in the wrong and what I was supposed to understand from his comments - realizing now that actually that’s where I fall down everytime - trying to understand everything. What I think I need to do is just keep confronting him with how what he says (and not says!) makes me feel, no matter how unreasonable and irrational it is.

I’m not long enough with him to have any sense of safety in doing that yet though - I can already feel that I reckon he’ll get fed up with it and I’ll end up shutting down and trying to behave like a good little client. Just his saying that about my not letting him be himself (that I’m trying to make him be what I want/need him to be for my purposes) sends me the message that I’m in the wrong somehow. Anyway I don’t want him to ‘be’ different, I want him to ACT differently towards me, to respond to me in a way that lets me feel he gets what I’m telling him.

But then, I have this problem with every single T I’ve ever seen, so I guess it has to be something in me behind it. Nevertheless, I’m sticking to my plan to keep on telling him how he’s making me feel regardless of whether it’s something entirely in me or not. So there

Got a question for you Russ - you’ve expressed loads of anger at your T - what actually happens? Does it get you anywhere, do you get to understand what’s going on any better or does it just feel like you’re constantly sending him messages that he’s just not getting? Does he ever encourage you to go even further into your anger and do you ever get to make the emotional connections that in your here and now anger at T actually it’s old anger too? My T seems hellbent on redirecting whatever I’m expressing to him in the moment into the past and that really winds me up because it feels like he’s not letting me just have how I feel in this moment - if he would just encourage me to keep going with the specific feeling I’m into in that moment, whatever connection to the past I reckon will intuitively surface - and because it’s not forced intellectually it will actually mean something. I feel that he’s jumping into forcing connections with the past too soon - it just cuts me off from whatever I’m currently feeling and puts me straight into ok let’s think about this mode. Result, double pissed off at T for negating and invalidating what I’m actually feeling, and for leaving me high and dry in rational mode with absolutely nothing understood or resolved.

Sorry for the long post - I’m still feeling my way around this whole staying with what I feel thing, and I’m not at all convinced that this new T of mine really understands what I’m doing. I wish he were more like your bakT - some sense of genuine warmth that would make it all feel much less like I’m some specimen to which he’s applying generic text book methods.

Hope your session tomorrow goes really well - you never know, there isn’t any law that says you can’t ask to switch Ts, if you find you are getting much further and deeper with bakT.

Let us know how it goes?

LL

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:

Got a question for you Russ - you’ve expressed loads of anger at your T - what actually happens? Does it get you anywhere, do you get to understand what’s going on any better or does it just feel like you’re constantly sending him messages that he’s just not getting? Does he ever encourage you to go even further into your anger and do you ever get to make the emotional connections that in your here and now anger at T actually it’s old anger too? My T seems hellbent on redirecting whatever I’m expressing to him in the moment into the past and that really winds me up because it feels like he’s not letting me just have how I feel in this moment - if he would just encourage me to keep going with the specific feeling I’m into in that moment, whatever connection to the past I reckon will intuitively surface - and because it’s not forced intellectually it will actually mean something. I feel that he’s jumping into forcing connections with the past too soon - it just cuts me off from whatever I’m currently feeling and puts me straight into ok let’s think about this mode. Result, double pissed off at T for negating and invalidating what I’m actually feeling, and for leaving me high and dry in rational mode with absolutely nothing understood or resolved.

LL,

I do often get angry with my T. When I go get angry, he really just contains it all and lets me express how and why I'm angry AT HIM. Does it get my anywhere? Honestly, I don't know. Doesn't really feel like it. But yes, he encourages me to go as far and deep with anger and all of my emotions as I can. He's very, very good at that.

However, like your T, my T also does the redirecting-to-the-original-source thing, too. We talk about what I'm pissed of HIM for, and then there's the inevitable "this is how you were treated by your father" routine. I mean, I guess he's correct to do this since I did walk into his office with all this stuff, and in that sense, it doesn't have anything to do with him. But still, I usually hit a dead end there.

I mean, OK, I get the idea that most, if not all, of this stuff is a projection from decades ago, but what then? Do I have to actually re-live those feelings in the exact context that they originally happened in order to get better? Do I have to start having flashbacks? Do I need to build myself a time machine and go back there, experience the original stuff and then deal with it differently? I've asked all these questions many times, and you know what? There's no answer other than "You have to see it."

Well, I've been trying to "see it" - whatever the hell that means - for 2.5 years and not much has changed. So I guess you could say that I'm just angry at the whole experience of psychotherapy and what I see as the woefully unsatisfactory results so far.

As you can tell, I'm pretty down on the whole therapy endeavor, and I'm pretty tempted to quit my T and start seeing bakT, who I at least feel more comfortable with and who, when he emails me, actually addresses me by my name and signs off with his own name. I haven't seen my T in two weeks, and I don't miss him or therapy one bit.

Anyway, I'll post an update after my sessions with bakT today.

Russ

Hey, Russ...nice to see you! Gosh I am amazed that you are thinking of switching T's...I guess it just seems like you have invested so much in this T and you must be feeling pretty frustrated to feel like switching. But if you really feel stalled, gosh...maybe it's the right thing to do... I just wonder if your original problem with this T will crop up with the next one, too after awhile? I could be way off base with this, but I just know that for myself, when I first stated T my T was warm, caring, friendly and supportive...all that stuff...and nothing has changed, objectively. But I have changed. I need more from him now, than he is able to give, or something like that. I know I have so many of the same exact problems in T. that you and LL also have too. I suspect that a lot of it has to go back to, not abuse, per se, but a rather severe and insidious form of childhood neglect. What about this, Russ:

quote:

Do I need to build myself a time machine and go back there, experience the original stuff and then deal with it differently?

I think there is a lot of insight in this. I think therapy can probably *become* the time machine...especially when there is the attachment...but how we deal "differently with it," is up to us to see and try to figure out. Is it a growing up process? I am currently in the process of trying to ask myself, amidst the fog and confusion and pain he evokes, what I can do differently to communicate to my T what is happening for me. I haven't reached the point of getting really angry at him. I don't know if I will...that's probably where mine needs to go, but I can't force it. There is something that your T is trying to help you uncover and see...what is it? He wants you to find yourself...he is just there, a place for you to practice, and **if*** (very big if there,) you are like me, this really, doesn't make you so much angry, as severely hurt and emotionally deprived. Anger would be the "psychological defense," maybe, in our case? What do I know...I'm no T, maybe more anger is called for! But I suspect that your T is trying to help you find that hurt and lost little boy inside...so that the two of you can re-unite, and you will feel more yourself again. It just stinks that they won't do more to facilitate this process...but there is some reason that they can't. I suspect that if they did, we wouldn't be experiencing the original pain, and the whole thing would become kind of...pointless. But if they aren't kind enough, we won't be able to withstand it, and they will chase us off. A good T can hold still, I think that is the main skill. But, these are just thoughts....and completely, my speculations, about your situation. Sometimes I wonder if T's use this type of "professional demeanor technique" as opposed to the more tender, welcoming one, with those of us who have suffered neglect...?? Some kind of tough love type thingy...who knows, what they are up to?

anyway, I'd like to just suggest a tiny experiment for you, to do- not with backT, because then you won't have the information you are looking for about your current T- but with your T, when he comes back. Next time he seems cold and dismissive to you, and feel it starting to "piss you off," see what happens if you go to the root under the anger, and let yourself experience...the raw hurt. who knows...it could be where he is leading you. However, that pain is no fun. I avoid it at all costs, until something happens that forces it upon me and I am blown away by some kind of mind-blowing, ageless grief...this grief gets me in touch with myself, yeah...but it is simply agaony. Of course you are moving away from it...if what you are going through is similar, that is. But I would rather be there, than where I usually function...I can say that now. It is a much better place than the depression and fog. there, I start to be able to feel again...for real. I am not kidding you. I really feel real in the middle of that terrible grief, and it is such a relief. But, agony...But I could be talking the worlds biggest crock of **** here, in terms of YOUR experience, and what you need...so please, take with a shaker of salt, of course, and if there is something here that you can use...wonderful.

In the meantime, I am thinking of you and hoping you can find the light at the end of the tunnel there Russ...the darkness is not very much more fun to live in than the pain I am talking about, though it "hurts" less.
(((Russ))) safe hugs for you..

Love,

BB

BB,

I think your speculation about sort of re-doing with a new T what I'm doing with my current T could very well be totally correct, even though I of course don't feel that way at the moment (but I'm suspicious of that feeling.)

In fact, I think your entire post is really, really insightful..."severely hurt and emotionally deprived." Yeah, I think this is closer to my own truth than just plain anger. Anger, as you say, is probably the defense.

I guess what I find so infuriatingly frustrating is that I don't let myself feel what's under the anger. Instead, I experience this suffocating feeling of dread, impending doom, and despair...all along with the physical head fog. My T speculates that I felt a version of this combination of feelings as a child, but in a different form. When I asked him, "do you think I really felt it consciously?" he answered yes, he thinks I did. Thing is, I don't remember ever feeling any kind of analog to what I feel now. There was never a point in my life, that I can recall, where I felt as locked into this kind of state of being - or state of consciousness - as I've been for the past 2.5 years. And when I say this to my T, he says, "can you feel yourself digging your heels in?"

My response is, "well no, I can't. What I feel myself doing is struggling to see if your theory makes any sense. Putting two and two together. I don't remember ever feeling this wretched as a child, or any equivalent of it. So, instead of just buying your idea, I'm trying to see if I can see any truth in it for me." And he just sees this as more resistance.

quote:

Next time he seems cold and dismissive to you, and it pisses you off, see what happens if you go to the root under the anger, and let yourself experience...the raw hurt. who knows...it could be where he is leading you. However, that pain is no fun. I avoid it at all costs, until something happens that forces it upon me and I am blown away by some kind of mind-blowing, ageless grief...this grief gets me in touch with myself, yeah...but it is simply agaony. Of course you are moving away from it...if what you are going through is similar, that is.

Honestly, I think I'd rather get in touch with that kind of actual, real emotion than this combination of unfocused dread and despair that doesn't seem to have any clear cause. But I could be talking out of my a** here, too. They're both awful. Still, I do do this. Whenever I get angry, I start looking for the original hurt. I just haven't been able to locate it yet.

Thanks, BB. I really appreciate your thoughtful insight.

ah...for me there is no original hurt. The only hurt I can feel is from my T. But I know it must be triggering something from the past, or I wouldn't be having such a massive reaction to something as simple as him using the wrong combination of words. Once, at the end of a session he said "keep smiling!" as we logged off, and I was wrecked, totally wrecked, for a week. Because there was something about those words, used at that time...that seemed positively sinister and cruel. Something else is going on here. I guess what I am suggesting is that you try to locate the feelings of hurt that HE is causing you, and actually feel them instead of getting angry *if* the anger is actually blocking the hurt he causes...it is just a thought. The way I have done this successfully during session (once or twice) was for my T to constatnly be asking "so, what are you feeling...right now?" I would have to stop and think a long time...(gosh he was patient with me at that time, I don't know what's happened) gradually I would become aware..."wow, it is that I am going to really miss him when we hang up...yes, that is what I am really feeling!" The shock of realization in that moment, was such a relief...yes, here at at last, is an honest, authentic feeling I can call my own! I really prize that little moment. Because it lets me know that I am at least capable of identifying painful emotions. I think it just takes practice. Preferable in the presence of your T. Anger is an excellent mask for underlying feelings of rejection that may be almost *too* painful to bear. Especially if the feeling you get, is really an emotional memory. But feeling those emotional, (not at all cognitive, for me, at least...I have absolutely no awareness of what it is from the past that I am grieving) but feeling it...gives me a lot of valuable information about how I MUST have been feeling as a child. The feelings are unmistakable. If/When that grief happens, you will know.

However, I find it very thought-provoking- that your T seems to also think that you may already have been kind of triggered into such a state...and are spending all of your time there...if I am understanding correctly. And that in this place you are unable to feel even grief of childhood rejection. And that makes me think, if he's right, and if I am understanding correctly...that things must have been very bad indeed for little Russ...and if that is true, then gosh, I really think that even though it doesn't make sense to you why...you will be avoiding it. How could you do else? A little child develops a coping mechanism as in, going into a fog and terribble anxiety...and lives that way until he becomes an adult..even kids in bad circumstances usually just cry a lot. But some kids never cry. That is a really bad sign, imo, when they don't. If you were a kid who never cried...than coming to terms with it is going to take a long time. Again, just my thoughts, and I am a plebe- so please keep a very large salt-shaker handy, and sprinkle liberally with it...but I think your T knows what he is talking about.

I hope some of this helps a little bit. My heart really goes out to you. I spend most of my days in a kind of foggy misery that makes functioning, working, taking care of my kids, etc...a constant uphill battle. I don't have the anxiety that you are also dealing with. Well, not yet. I have a feeling that may be coming for me around the corner, once I start facing things a little bit more honestly without shutting down. Gosh, Russ. That is just awful. I hope so much you will find your way out of this soon. Yes, the grieving place, even though agonizing..is a place of light and peace, compared to the blackness. I would rather stay there, but I find myself unable to, my guess is that it takes a lot of strength to stay there, and I'm probably building my muscles.

BB

Hi there Russ, how did you session with bakT go? Have you come any closer to working out whether it’s a good idea to stick with current T or is there a chance you are thinking of switching?

Wanted to pick up on the anger issue, and BB’s suggestion that you try and go for the stuff underneath the anger. For what it’s worth, I am permanently angry (though it comes out as impotent resentment most of the time) - and I’m pretty aware that my anger is the only way I have of dealing with what’s underneath, which may well be profound pain (somewhere) but feels much more like fear. When my fear is in abeyance I feel angry, but other times I drop into a type of paranoia and realize that it’s anger causing it. The two seem to be partners in all this. Fear cancels anger and anger cancels fear. And so on ad infinitum - getting to anything beneath (the hurt, the pain, the shame, the isolation, the alienation) is just an intellectual awareness for me at the moment. I can glimpse such awful feelings, but there’s a huge amount of fear wrapped around them that keeps me in defensive angry mode.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that maybe for you, the fear fog that has you by the throat might actually be the thing you need to bring out and work with. I expect you’ve talked about it all with your T many times, just wondering what you think about the idea that somewhere in the middle of that fear fog is the other stuff you’re trying to get to? That the anger is your best defence against it and that maybe fear is the more ‘productive’ emotion to delve into.

That’s what makes me wonder whether a more openly caring and supportive T might be able to help you feel a whole lot safer in going into that infinitely frightening fog?

Have to say for me, it would take a LOT for me to allow myself to experience the fear in therapy - hell I’ve spent most of my life finding ways of not feeling fear, it’s SO unsafe. Fear is one of those feelings that doesn’t go away the more you go into it.

Anyway sorry for the ramble, just thought it might be a different perspective on your situation.

Hope you’re doing ok during T’s break and that bakT is helping you too.

LL


Oh and for what it’s worth, the terrible fear I’m constantly living with - which takes the form of a bad-me paranoia - I didn’t have that as a child. Or if I did, it wasn’t at all in my conscious awareness or memory. I do know when it started and why - so it’s perfectly possible that the fear fog you have been experiencing doesn’t come directly from the past, but is the result of other factors from the past that you’ve had to repress. Does that make sense?

Hi BB and LL,

My session with bakT last Thursday was good. I see him one more time early this week before resuming with my T on Friday. As far as changing Ts...I just don't know yet. Obviously, it's a HUGE change, and I know I'm not even recognizing fully how huge a change it would be on many, many levels.

I'm going to talk to my T about it. I'm going to ask him what he thinks about the fact that I seem to feel more comfortable with bakT and just really like him and his demeanor better. One thing I like about my T is that I can be that frank with him. I really do like bakT, but I just don't know what that means for me. There's also the practical question of when and how often bakT could see me.

On Thursday, when I told bakT that I'm thinking that seeing a T with more warmth and compassion might make sense for me, - and that I often feel that I'm "doing it wrong" because I don't have a super strong emotional attachment to my T and that seems to be proven by the fact that I don't miss my T during this break - he said, "you know, being a patient in psychoanalytic therapy is very difficult, and in this kind of therapy, the relationship with the therapist is often NOT gratifying at all. In fact, it's more often confounding and feels not-connected in the way you want it to be. And that trouble with that relationship is often where the real trouble is, and you are able to see it in action."

Regarding my symptoms he said, "I get the impression that this feeling you describe in your head may be what [my T] thinks it is, namely that there's a tremendously painful feeling, or set of feelings, being activated by your attempt to have a real relationship with a women, but your mind is telling you that it's too painful to actually feel and it's trying like hell to keep you from feeling it. The result is a conflict between one force trying to come out, and another force keeping it down, and it's making you sick."

In any case, I'm going to talk to my T about it. I'm guessing he'll use my feelings and thoughts about the whole thing as content for therapy, but I also expect that he'll tell me what he actually thinks about me switching Ts.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
But I know it must be triggering something from the past, or I wouldn't be having such a massive reaction to something as simple as him using the wrong combination of words...Once, at the end of a session he said "keep smiling!"

Same here, BB. Something is getting triggered, that's for sure. What exactly I don't know, but it's got to do with tremendous anger, fear and hurt. Ugh, I'm sorry your T made that quip about keep smiling. That would knock me sideways, too. Fortunately, my T doesn't say much when we end. When we end, he always says, we'll plan to meet on such and such a day. I'll say, "ok, see you then." And he says, "indeed."

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
However, I find it very thought-provoking- that your T seems to also think that you may already have been kind of triggered into such a state...and are spending all of your time there...if I am understanding correctly. And that in this place you are unable to feel even grief of childhood rejection. And that makes me think, if he's right, and if I am understanding correctly...that things must have been very bad indeed for little Russ

From the perspective of emotional connection with my parents, yes, things were very bad for me. I can't feel the grief of my childhood very directly just yet, but, I can feel something there...a vague but profound sadness and a kind of strange poignancy that is incredibly moving. There's also tremendous anger at both of my parents that I can access, which is good. But again, there's more beneath that anger that I'm still trying to get to.

Regarding the idea of "little Russ," my T is always reminding me of something I myself said, which was that when my best friend was leaving for a weekend one time, I heard a little voice inside me saying, "but what about me?" He feels that this is the voice of the part of me that's at the root of my problems.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
That is a really bad sign, imo, when they don't. If you were a kid who never cried...than coming to terms with it is going to take a long time.

I didn't cry a whole lot as a kid, but it wasn't a case where I never cried. However, before May of 2008 when I started therapy, I probably cried three times in 20 years, and two of those were just before my breakdown when I was moved to tears by the person I was dating at the time. One concrete thing I can point to now as an improvement is that I am able to cry very easily now. In fact, I consider my ability to cry a gift. Not being able to cry feels like a curse, and I'm very, very glad that I can cry. I mean, I cried at a wedding yesterday. That has NEVER happened before.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
I guess what I’m trying to say is that maybe for you, the fear fog that has you by the throat might actually be the thing you need to bring out and work with. I expect you’ve talked about it all with your T many times, just wondering what you think about the idea that somewhere in the middle of that fear fog is the other stuff you’re trying to get to? That the anger is your best defence against it and that maybe fear is the more ‘productive’ emotion to delve into.

Hi LL. I think your idea could be correct, that somewhere inside the physical feeling of dread, impending doom and fogbound fear are the actual emotions that I need to get to. At the moment, I'm leaning toward the idea that the fog is more a response to the conflict of feelings trying to emerge and me unconsciously trying to stamp them down, but who knows, it could be BOTH.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
...getting to anything beneath (the hurt, the pain, the shame, the isolation, the alienation) is just an intellectual awareness for me at the moment. I can glimpse such awful feelings, but there’s a huge amount of fear wrapped around them that keeps me in defensive angry mode.

Ditto, 110%. It's all just a theory for me at this point, too. I'm waiting for this stuff to start coming out, but I don't know if it actually happens that way. Maybe it does for some people. Maybe some people actually are able to tap into a reservoir of previously unfelt pain, let it out and sort of burst into health because their symptoms are no longer necessary. I like that idea, but I wonder if it's just a lot of magical thinking on my part.

I see bakT on Wednesday, real T on Friday. I'll post another report then.

Thanks so much BB and LL for having this dialog with me. I so appreciate your thoughts and experience on this.

Hope your both doing OK, too.

Russ

So I had my last sessions with bakT and my first reunion session with my T this week. I still don't really know what to do. I told bakT that I wasn't looking forward to seeing my T at all, and that - at this point - I'd actually rather see him. He was very helpful, explaining that (of course) that's ultimately up to me and that I'd have to discuss it with my T, which I haven't yet.

BakT also mentioned the possibility of acting as an occasional "consultant" to me on my relationship with my T. He said it's not done all that much, and probably not enough. So I don't know. I'm very confused. I'm also so invested with my T that it's making me wonder if switching is actually worth it. I mean, there's no way to know, maybe ever.

So, I guess I have to bring this all up with my T, which I'm dreading. The problem is I don't trust my feelings. I don't know what's a psychological defense (that FEELS like intuition or gut feeling) and what's actually real intuition and gut feeling.

Thanks again everyone for hanging with me on this. I really appreciate it.

Russ

""Ditto, 110%. It's all just a theory for me at this point, too. I'm waiting for this stuff to start coming out, but I don't know if it actually happens that way. Maybe it does for some people. Maybe some people actually are able to tap into a reservoir of previously unfelt pain, let it out and sort of burst into health because their symptoms are no longer necessary. I like that idea, but I wonder if it's just a lot of magical thinking on my part."" russ

russ, i hear you. what DOES that look like to get this stuff out?? it seems untapable to me. short of spinning heads and green vomit, i don't think anything else is going to get it out, and i am terrified of that scene.

i wonder on the fog, too. seems that is definitely self protection and the fear to be explored.

as i am seeing, all this stuff resolves in very primal feelings.

i would trust your gut. you have a good gut, it's just that no one ever reassured us that we do.

good luck. jill

Oh wow Russ that’s exactly the place I find myself in all the time - how much of what I intuitively feel is ‘genuine’ and how much of it is a defence, or even worse, ‘wrong’ because I’ve got perceptual issues so I can’t always trust that how I see something is objective reality or my own warped interpretations. Makes it VERY difficult to make decisions based on gut feeling/emotional responses alone. So I sympathize totally with your being in this stuck sort of position.

Hm you could for now try a taster period - take bakT up on his offer of ‘consultancy’ whilst still seeing your T, and see how that pans out - there’s no need then for you to make an immediate decision one way or the other until you have a clearer sense of which direction you want to take your therapy.

I can see too why you are dreading talking to your T about this - though because you’ve been seriously considering switching Ts, I suspect that could give your interactions with current T a real boost - maybe jolt him a bit out of any complacency he might be feeling and get him to work more closely with what’s happening between the two of you. In any event, it’s got to be a big step forward in your healing no matter what - there’s no way really you can’t talk to him about some of it at least.

I hope you can find the courage to talk to him about it soon. By the way how did the first session with him back from hols go? I take it you weren’t exactly bowled over by how much you’d missed him or by being thrilled to see him again

Sending you lots of good wishes Russ

LL

Russ,

I think it is so hard for many of us to trust our instincts when we've been so good at denying them for so long. I think the consult idea is a good one and might help make things more clear. I hope that you are able to sort all this out and get to the point where you feel you can let out all of the pain that you've been holding onto.

Yes, how did the session with your T go?

quote:

Originally posted by jill:
russ, i hear you. what DOES that look like to get this stuff out?? it seems untapable to me. short of spinning heads and green vomit, i don't think anything else is going to get it out, and i am terrified of that scene.

i wonder on the fog, too. seems that is definitely self protection and the fear to be explored.

Hi Jill,

At the moment, I'm having a real crisis in faith that anything, therapy or otherwise, is going to "work" in getting me to a place of real wellness. All this stuff about unconscious conflicts and defences and projection and all the rest of it from the psychoanalytical school of thought just feels like abstract, conceptual noodling with no stated purpose or goal.

Clearly, something is going on that's been making me unwell for the past 2.5 years, and certain things make it worse...that's honestly the only thing I know for sure, and I don't know what to do about it other than to keep trying to make internal connections between them.

In short, I'm currently in a place where I'm really sick of therapy and its lack of results. For the first couple of years, I had a kind of real enthusiasm and hope about it, but at the moment, I'm just sick of it and I feel like therapy isn't really going to help me make the connections I need to make, or get to the feelings I need to get to, or do whatever must be done to breakthrough to the other side of this thing. But maybe this is a good thing...maybe it's the fuel I need to look at a part of myself that I haven't yet looked at, and maybe come to some understanding of my experience by myself. Nothing would please me more, actually.

LL and STRM,

My first session with my T after the break went OK, but a large part of me didn't even want to be there, and we ended with the kind of irritatingly circular babble about a particular idea that I friggin' hate. I wanted to scream, "just tell me what the hell it is you mean before I hurl this lamp at your head!"

As you can tell, I'm in a real anti-therapy mood at the moment. Tomorrow I plan on telling my T that I'm just sick of the whole business and I feel like, at the very least, I need to try something different than we've been doing. I'm also going to tell him that I just feel more comfortable talking with bakT, and that I like his demeanor better. We'll see what happens from that. A part of me is so pissed off at the lack of results with therapy that it's making me a bit brave in terms of voicing my complaints to his face.

I'm feeling very confrontational right now because I'm so angry. I'm feeling like psychotherapy is a bunch of vague, metaphorical dart throwing that makes all sorts of sense intellectually but that you can't actually apply in any practical way that results in one actually feeling better. I feel like asking my T, "in all your years as a T, has anyone with similar problems as mine walked out of this place actually better?

So, I must apologise for my incredibly negative, angry state of mind and my complaining, but it just happens to be the place I'm in at the moment. However, instead of complaining about it and passively doing nothing, I at least plan on doing something about it one way or another.

Thanks again for your input.

Russ

Dear Russ,

It's an awful feeling - the removal of hope. The anger is useful to carry you into SOME kind of action about this, I believe. I don't know what the answer is but I know I feel as you describe above with my current T (round & round in circles, what the hell is the point of this?) and I DIDN'T feel that way with my last T - at least never for longer than one session. For me it is very much to do with what simply feels like lack of attunement.

So I have a termination session with my current T tonight, and then I'm back out into the wilds. It's a risk. It is VERY unusual for me to say, in my life, 'this isn't good enough and I can have better'. It might be misguided but it will be interesting, at least, to try out this new behaviour.

Good luck with voicing your anger - I hope it takes you somewhere good.

Jones

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
Dear Russ,

It's an awful feeling - the removal of hope. The anger is useful to carry you into SOME kind of action about this, I believe. I don't know what the answer is but I know I feel as you describe above with my current T (round & round in circles, what the hell is the point of this?) and I DIDN'T feel that way with my last T - at least never for longer than one session. For me it is very much to do with what simply feels like lack of attunement.

So I have a termination session with my current T tonight, and then I'm back out into the wilds. It's a risk. It is VERY unusual for me to say, in my life, 'this isn't good enough and I can have better'. It might be misguided but it will be interesting, at least, to try out this new behaviour.

Good luck with voicing your anger - I hope it takes you somewhere good.

Jones

Thanks, Jones. I hope your termination session goes as well as those things are able of going. May I ask what your principal reasons where for entering therapy originally?

Best,
Russ

quote:

I'm feeling like psychotherapy is a bunch of vague, metaphorical dart throwing that makes all sorts of sense intellectually but that you can't actually apply in any practical way that results in one actually feeling better.

Hi Russ...I'm sorry you are in this hellish place but I like that you are feeling strong enough to do something about it and that you were so open to seeing bakT. You statement above strikes a chord with me but in sort of an opposite way. With my old T things were not at all intellectual... I mean that he was not analysing me or interacting with me in any kind of intellectual way that I could discern. And maybe part of that was his oft told lack of trauma experience BUT... what he did do was interact with me in a right brain/emotional way and that was what was healing me. I could feel it heal me when we had those sessions where he allowed us to have that limbic connection and attunement. And when I was feeling upset or emotional about something that occurred in our relationship I was very often if not always able to connect it back to the past, even to very specific events in the past. It was so good for me to work our relationship because it made a true difference in my healing journey. I think this is why I've been going from T to T to T and coming away feeling empty and without hope. I can't FEEL anything with them at all. I try and I have been back to a few more than once. I have seen "D" 9 times and there is absolutely nothing... no connection. I could be talking to the cleaning lady and get more from that. I connected with my old T almost immediately and it was a very strong connection. I truly despair of ever finding that healing attunement ever again. It's so much worse to know what it feels like and lose it than to have never felt it at all.

I think if you feel better with bakT then you need to move over to him. I think you gave your current T a good test run but you need a change and you seem to respond better to the warmer personality. Maybe this is what you have needed all along.

Jones...I'm thinking of you. I'm sure it has been hard for you to make this decision to terminate with this T. But you know best and I applaud you for following your instincts and doing what is right for YOU. It's hard enough to do therapy but when there is no affinity to the T (I'm finding) it is so much more difficult. Please let us know how this turns out. Are you thinking of giving male T a try? You may be surprised at how good this turns out. Best wishes to you...

TN

russ, y'no one thing comes to mind that is actually good about your irritation at this whole therapy business, is, you CAN get more vocal and less vulnerable right now with t, as you have the comfort and security of bakT if you need,

not that you would have a confrontation that would threaten anyone, but your dependence on him is less than it was.

my course has not been this rosy picture of one fabulous t, but, i do think they each have their own perspective, and i would just milk this guy DRY of what he has for you (not in a mean way) but take it to the end of what he has. and proceed down another path if you need.

personally, for me, t1 was at the end of what he had for me long before i left, i just was afraid to leave the security of it all, and just couldn't believe that he had nothing more. i thought it was MY fault, that i was just not asking/telling him enough or in the right way. but, i now see, he had nothing else, and, although he thought i needed 12 to 18 months more of his services, i bolted (on nice terms) and have made rocky progress, but, progress i would not have made with him.

milk this to the end, and march on, my friend.

and, i hear your frustration, and i feel so much the same way. all this stupid theory stuff, when all mine was, in a nutshell, my mom didn't love or like me...and is a sick puppy in her own right.

the pa, sa, all that horsecrap was just the icing on the shit-cake, but, really, the connection to a mother/God is what i am missing. and trying to find with my faith, and sometimes i am, when i knock.

darkest before a dawn?? i dunno, but two and a half years with one man who is frustrating the living daylights out of you seems like enough.

another thought, and you don't need to reply, but, have you identified really what is your deal?? if so, have you researched what type of therapy is most responsive to this?? i have been reading alot about carl jung, and think there is something there for me, on the insight/depth level, and with my flavor of stuff, borderline tendancies, dbt is supposed to be quite effective, and i am seeing some new things that seem to touch the deep buttons that need pushed. and t1, with his CBT, well, uh, that is not for my kind of stuff.

i reallly think there is someone else out there who can help you more. and like one of my many p's said, all the history is really less important than we, as a patient, think it is, that a good t should meet you where you are, and all the getting there and history with your current t is less difficult to overcome than we might think...and too, i think, a fresh start, not that we will put up all our defenses, but, to have them not so colored by the original stuff that perhaps we have worked through could help.

research it some, maybe, if funds allow, try bakT and a new researched and interviewed (on the phone, i interviewed probably ten before i landed on dbt gal) and parellel them a bit and make a choice.

i hate to push you to change, of course, i can't, but there are so many tools to be had in therapy, and if your t has a hammer and you NEED a wrench...well, a hammer just won't work as well. point is, there is very much a difference in t's orientations....

ramble much jill?? jill

((russ)) jill

Hi Russ,

I went into therapy to try to deal with relationship difficulties and procrastination/anxiety issues that interfere with my working life. Thanks for the good wishes.

TN, thank you too for your thoughts. The attunement makes all the difference, I'm sure of it. I know, from other situations in my life, how painful it is to have that taken away and to not be able to find it again. I feel for you.

As for the male T - I have such mixed feelings about this, but my options are limited and I probably will try it. One of the major problems in my relationship, though, has been me getting my emotional needs met with other men. We (my husband and I) are processing and getting over this, slowly and painfully. I am reluctant to put us both through it again, and in fact I feel protective of the little seedlings of intimacy between us. Also, our couples work happens with both our Ts in the room (which is why I want to stay within this practice) - I talked to my h about this last night, and he said he would indeed find it difficult if my T were a man.

J

Hi TN,

So nice to year from you! As far as the limbic connection, I mean, I can't say that I've ever *felt* a real limbic connection with anyone in my life, let alone my therapist. Not to say that it's never happened, but I can't define what such a thing feels like consciously.

As I've mentioned, I plan on bringing this all up tomorrow. I don't want to speculate how it will go, but I'll be sure to post about it here. Obviously, it's ultimately up to me, but it's not something I want to enter into lightly or hurriedly.

I'm so sorry you've had such a hard time settling on another therapist. Please keep me posted on that process. How are you doing on a day-to-day basis? Are you having specific symptoms, or is it more a matter of having really difficult/overwhelming emotions (grief, anger, sadness)?

jill,

Thanks for your input. Like most things, it's complicated, but yes, I find my current T often very frustrating. And yet, I have moments of real gratitude for his help...and he does help me in very direct ways that have to do with what's happening in my life right now. And he also has an excellent sense of humor, similar to mine, and this is something that is critically important to me. So, there's a lot to consider, and I plan on beginning this discussion with him tomorrow.

Jones,

Thanks for replying. Keep us posted on how you're doing.

Russ

quote:

Originally posted by ultraviolet:
Hi Russ,

Remember this?

quote:

He then illustrated something stunning to me. He explained that when I was a child, I demanded/asked for help, love, warmth, affection and connection from my father. He of course dismissed and denied me. I then internalized the messages from this experience and came to believe that I didn't deserve any of what I wanted, and that's where the self-hate started.

http://psychcafe.ca/eve/forums...=922101111#922101111

Because this is such a core issue, working with bakT might ___________________.

(i'm sure you can fill in the blank)

hey UV! You know, I actually can't fill in the blank! . I say that because I don't actually and can't really say for sure what bakT is like as a full-time T. All I really know at this point is that there's more of a feeling of hope and encouragement in his feedback and presence than there is with my T. But, maybe that's the critical piece that's missing that might allow me to get to where I need to get to.

So, how are you doing these days? Let me know.

Russ

quote:

Then again, maybe that's just what you need-for a T to relate to you like your father did not. Only you would know that.

Hi UV,

This is what I'm at least considering. Pretty much since day 1 with my T, I've had trouble with his non-empathic, cold demeanor. Last night, I once again voiced my distress over this and he didn't even respond. He just directed the discussion toward something that we left off with last time, and when I simply tried to clarify a question he asked me about that topic, he accused me of resisting even though I'm the one who raised the topic in the first place.

At this point, I feel like my therapy is going nowhere because my therapist isn't giving me a platform to make progress, and I am seriously considering ending therapy with him. After 2.5 years of his "style," I think it's time for me to find a T who is an actual human being.

Russ

Never had a back up T, I wonder though if eventually things wouldnt arise that suddenly you felt perhaps "Old" T would be able to deal with better? A feeling of having a eggs in 2 baskets? Instant gratification?

Russ,

It sounds like to me that you know what you need to do or at least on a feeling level you do.

Along the lines of what UV said, I can see it both ways, but I can say in my experience that having a T that shows me what I didn't get with my own mother has been a huge catalyst in facing that grief head on. If my T were to act like my mother (cold, dismissive, no empathy etc.) I would just recoil further and never get in touch with those feelings. It varies what works for each person, but you've tried his way for 2.5 years and you don't feel like it is working. Perhaps it is time to try another way. Doesn't mean you have to burn any bridges, but ultimately this is YOUR therapy and if it isn't working for you then you deserve the freedom to make a change.

Melba,

You make a very good point, and it's entirely possible. I guess that's just a risk I'd have to take if I end up switching Ts.

BG and STRM,

Thanks for the reply. Tomorrow, I am going to once again try and discuss this with my therapist. I honestly don't think he cares one way or the other, based on the feeling - or total lack thereof - that I get from him.

See, my T thinks everything is 100% projection from the past. Everything. As a result, I don't think he thinks seeing another therapist will make any difference. I'll just re-enact 100% of the past with that therapist. But, all along I've had the feeling that everything is not 100% projection, and during one of my sessions with bakT, that's exactly what HE said.

So, we'll see. I wonder if my T not responding to me last night when I told him that I'm having serious doubts that my therapy with him is helping was a tacit agreement. Tomorrow, I'm going to ask him directly and demand an answer.

Russ

Russ,

Yeah, I don't think it is accurate or fair to say that everything is 100% projection of the past. You still have two living human beings in the room and no matter how much the T stays neutral, there are still going to be issues that are strictly about the two humans in the room and not the past. His refusal to answer you makes me a bit nuts on your behalf. I've been to different T's and I can say for sure, without a doubt that the T's style can make all the difference. I spent 5 sessions with a different T before switching to my current T and it had nothing to do with past projection, that other T just wasn't the right style for me and frankly wasn't qualified to deal with my issues. If I had to sit there and endure working with that T because I was being led to believe that any dislike of her and her style was all about the past, I think I would have gone mad!

I hope your T answers you tomorrow!

quote:

Originally posted by scaredtoriskmyself:
Russ,

Yeah, I don't think it is accurate or fair to say that everything is 100% projection of the past. You still have two living human beings in the room and no matter how much the T stays neutral, there are still going to be issues that are strictly about the two humans in the room and not the past. His refusal to answer you makes me a bit nuts on your behalf. I've been to different T's and I can say for sure, without a doubt that the T's style can make all the difference. I spent 5 sessions with a different T before switching to my current T and it had nothing to do with past projection, that other T just wasn't the right style for me and frankly wasn't qualified to deal with my issues. If I had to sit there and endure working with that T because I was being led to believe that any dislike of her and her style was all about the past, I think I would have gone mad!

STRM,

Right. How can there be a "relationship" between client and therapist if it's all just projection?

Before our 3-week break, one of the last things he said to me was, "this has nothing to do with me." Last night I reminded him of this and said, "if it has nothing to do with you, then what's the point of me coming here?" He of course didn't answer.

Russ

Russ

quote:

Before our 3-week break, one of the last things he said to me was, "this has nothing to do with me."

ugh.

ok, let me kinda try to agrue his side... hmmm.. nope. can't.

EVen if it is "all projection" then - well that doesn't come out of nowehre. He should at least say - what am I doing that is triggiering this and be willing to explore this. Like if my T cancels an appointment without explaination or reason (just an example) and I panic, my panic isn't just about her canceling an appointment but is a projection of a lot of real past abandonment - YET it doesn't cancel out the fact that it's so not cool and I do have a reaction to what is in the present - canceling an appointment without explaination or reason... the depth of my eaction may be stronger because of the past, but it doesn't ignore the current reality. My T would never say my reaction and panic wasn't about her. Of course it is. And about so much more! Of course there would be projection and transference going on in all of it... but it doesn't negate the PRESENT that is triggering it. AND it's also possible to have projection that is 100% about the present. For example, if I go around thinking my T hates me, I'm likely projecting my own self hate on to her. But that still is about her and involves her. Sorting it out seems like talking about well, does she really hate me? no... and it requires space that if she does something that makes me feel like she does - like say she... shiesh, I hate to use this example again, but it works... say she cancels an appointment without telling me why or rescheduling - i might think and project she is doing that because she hates me... that is projection but is doesn't negate the fact that it is in response to her real actions and then talking through what are her actions and what would help and work better is important.

ugh. Russ, I don't really have any words of advice. I just know this would drive me nutty. His stance and style - well, I think maybe it is time to try something else, maybe leave the door open to coming back to him if that seems right or... I dunno. I do know this owuld just drive me nuts. I think you are handling it pretty well.

I hope you can find a way to work through this or move on soon...

~jane

Russ, I just wanted to add here that in my opinion, we can only learn to know ourselves from our relationships with others. I don't believe at first we should just know or learn how to fill our voids, our emptiness on our own. If such a thing was possible why would we even need therapy? We could just flip that switch that says, okay I'm good, I'm fulfilled and I like myself. No we get our self-esteem and self confidence reflected back to us from other significant people in our lives.... ideally this would be our parents.... but when parents do not do this for us then we need our therapist to help us in this quest. No, it's not exactly the same as learning this as a child from a parent.. but it can be good enough to help us build that self-esteem and to eventually fill those empty voids inside of us. We need someone we trust and believe in to believe in us so that we can learn to believe in ourselves. I don't think you can get this from a blank slate, cold, detached kind of person.

The most important thing my T gave me was his warmth and empathy. He was a real person who showed his caring.... of course then when he decided to withdraw it it left me reeling. I'm not talking about the irrational T he turned into at the end of my therapy with him, but the real person he used to be who helped me to grow and to find myself. I would go out and try new things and bring my successes back to him and he would rejoice with me. And when I came back scared he helped me to look at that and he reassured me and so I tried it again. It was working really well until he got cold feet and/or he didn't keep one foot in his own world and became too involved in mine. I think it is a delicate balance for Ts and perhaps for some it's just easier to retain that cool detached persona.

I have seen a bunch of Ts lately and I will not and cannot work with one who is the blank slate variety. For someone with trauma and attachment issues this kind of T scares me because he is giving me what I had in the past and to heal, I need to experience something different in a positive way.

I think, Russ, that you do need a change and it seems that you are happier talking with bakT and you respond to his warmth and you are more frustrated with your current T than ever. I cannot tell you what to do because as I know so well.. changing Ts is very hard....but you need to feel your feelings after seeing each one and perhaps listen to your gut on this one.

Good luck.
TN

Thanks so much, TN.

I'm still not sure what to do, so my plan is to attempt to discuss it with my T again tonight.

I tried Monday night - voicing my concerns that my problems with his demeanor are keeping me from making real progress - and he didn't even respond.

I am going to try again tonight, and if just refuses to discuss it - or just chocks it all up to projection - I am going to demand that, ethically, he's obligated to address my concerns.

If he still refuses to address my concerns directly, I'll contact bakT and discuss seeing him instead.

I don't really know what else to do. If the guy is gonna ignore me and/or just chock it all up to projection anyway, I think I'm done with him.

I'll keep you posted.
Russ

Hello again Russ - how was your session? Did you manage to get him to hear you this time?

My slant right now is pretty confused - I’ve run into the same problems you are talking about with the total absence of human warmth in relationship with my new T - but for some very obscure and totally beyond my comprehension reason my last session with him he did a volte face and seems to be offering me some of the stuff I’ve been telling him I need since I first started with him.

So I don’t really know what to say about this whole psychoanalytic coldness and interpreting everything as transference and projection - in my case I’ve only known this new guy a few weeks, so maybe it’s ok that he’s suddenly decided to modify his approach to me. I really don’t know.

But in your case you’ve been seeing him for 2 and half years, that seems a bit long for him to make adjustments to his way of relating to you at this stage. But maybe he doesn’t realize how important it is to you and might actually adapt his approach. After all you’re not the same person as 2 and a half years ago and I would have assumed that the therapy itself changes and progresses over time, that would include the T adapting and changing positively in response to your changes.

What I do know is that had my T stayed in his rigid and ungiving mind set I would have had to walk. I still may quit, seeing as how all he’s done is say he’ll ‘try’ to give me more of what I need, it remains to be seen whether he can carry that through. But I have to say I don’t trust him AT ALL now, and 90% of me is still walking out the door - he’s going to have to do an awful lot of convincing if I’m going to risk staying.

All that to say that from the way you are feeling it is crunch time with your T, and I’d be inclined to encourage you to start seeking more from bakT until you are clear one way or the other which T will work better for you. It may well be that your current T can’t take you any further and a switch is the best thing you can do for yourself right now.

On the other hand, maybe there is healing work to be done with your unmet needs for human warmth and kindness in relation to current T. I seem to have lost my sense of how therapy ought to go at the moment, but I do most certainly relate to the position you’re in right now and if I were in your place I’d probably jump straight into bakT’s arms (metaphorically speaking of course

Dealing with overwhelming painful and downright dangerous feelings is threatening at the best of times, to go into them with no sense of someone else’s sympathy and understanding and kindness is, to me anyway, far too threatening to even think about doing it. It may be that the kindness and plain ‘humanness’ of bakT is the thing that will help you get in touch with those hidden and terrifying feelings of pain that you suspect are hidden away inside the black fog.

Gosh it’s all so uncertain and risky isn’t it, this therapy stuff. Whatever you decide Russ, you’ve got my support.

LL

Hi LL,

I still don't know what the hell to do...or what the hell I'm doing.

So my plan is to tell my T exactly how I'm feeling about him, namely that I hate him for all the reasons I've repeatedly stated here AND with him for the past 2.5 years, although I've never looked him in the eye and said, "I despise you for being cold, detached, impersonal and for making me feel helpless and hopeless, and I'm feeling like I'd rather see bakT than you."

That's exactly what I plan on telling him tonight. Right now, I'm feeling very hopeless that I'm ever going to be a psychologically and emotionally healthy person, so I really don't give a damn anymore, so I guess I'm feeling a little braver than usual.

They say that depression is anger turned inward. Well, I'm not sure I ever bought that idea, but at the moment, I could certainly see it that way. The past two sessions I've really checked my anger and hatred and, basically, swallowed it all, so it would make sense that right now it feels like some evil, 900 ton monster is sitting on my spirit, and my head feels like it's full of concrete.

Maybe by some miracle I'll be able to puke up some of this anger and feel better. We'll see.

Russ

So, I had a good session tonight. I told my T that I'm feeling very much that despite all the great things he provides me (complete respect, acceptance, non-judgemental, endlessly patient, consistent, solid), that for whatever reason, I am unable to feel that he truly understands how I feel. That I don't get a sense that he's empathic to me, and therefore the warmth and personal connection that comes with that feeling has been missing since day one. His response was actually very moving.

The first thing he said was that, above all else, the most important thing is me doing what I feel I have to do for myself, and that he respects nothing more than whatever decision I make in terms of continuing to see him or not. He said, "you're not trapped in here." I responded by saying, "I know I'm not trapped, but I am invested." He said, "that's right, and that investment deserves some serious consideration. But what's most important is you doing what you feel is best for you."

That said, he told me that he had certain "cautions" for me about being both comfortable and uncomfortable in therapy. When I told him that I'm never, ever comfortable in sessions with him, that I'm never relaxed and I'm often scared, he said, "how you feel when you're in here is exactly how you should be feeling in here, because what I'm asking you to do in here is terribly hard and very frightening. There is very little that's comforting about the work you're doing in here, and you're working against what the protective part of you wants you to do, and when that's the case, you've got a kind of non-stop inner conflict going on that's bound to be uncomfortable."

He then went on to sort of summarize, in an incredibly accurate nutshell, how I was when I walked into his office, going all the way back to how I was as an adolescent, and how I've been since that very first panic attack I had while on a train in Amsterdam in 1990. He said, "what bubbled up on that train 20 years ago was in you for a very long time, and you haven't really been the same since. You've been sort of trying piece together a version of yourself ever since in an attempt to create some kind of cohesive picture, but back in May of 08, it all fell apart. You came in here scared out of your mind and totally lost, and while I know you still feel that way much of the time, we're starting to put the picture back together the way it needs to be put back together. We're starting to get the real picture of you and why you've ended up in this place, even though I know it doesn't feel like it to you. Often in spite of yourself, the things you say in here are proof to me that you're starting to piece together where you really came from and who you really are. And the conflicts that are causing you to have symptoms are coming into focus for you."

He then made a very good point, which is that my girlfriend, who has also been my best friend and greatest source of support for the past 2.5 years, has provided me with more empathy, warmth, support and comfort than anyone ever has in my life, and I'm still struggling.

He ended by reiterating that the most important thing is my decisions about my therapy, that I'm free to see whoever I want.

Carl Rogers, the founder of Humanist Psychotherapy, had a main principal called "unconditional positive regard." I think in relating his thoughts as honestly and non-judgementally as he did, while stating that above else, my decisions are what counted, my T offered me his own unconditional positive regard, something, despite everything, that's he's provided for me all along.

So, I need to think on it some more, but overall I feel better about this bind, and it was helpful, and even encouraging, to hear my T's thoughts on my concerns.

Russ