dear kats,

that's must be very scary on top of the anxiety you're already experiencing! i know there are much more useful comments on the way, but perhaps this will do to tie you over:

i'm experiencing a lot of symptoms in my body and since last year i have started talking to whatever seems to wants my attention that way. bits of me take on a whole persona and after a while start talking about their 'thoughts'. so in effect it's sort of part of myself manifesting themselves in my body that way. this morning for example i had a bit of an epiphany with my knee, who finally divulged the need to feel protected and a bit fussed over. so i'm looking for something that will address that (was thinking of some nice colourful fluffy material to wrap around it if that makes sense)

not sure of course if this is helpful in your case or even if i articulated this clearly enough. my powers of language are very limited i'm afraid.

i hope you will feel lighter soon kat!
sb

I am way too chicken and squeamish to even entertain thoughts of physically hurting myself but the emotional harm seems to have no limit. I have been flooded with horrible negative, hateful thoughts about myself for a while. They hammer away at my grip on reality and today they started getting the upper-hand. At least so far I have been able to fight and that is a tribute to the work I've done in therapy over these last few years but I am getting tired and worn down and I can feel the doubts creeping in. The doubts - they are like snipers - very sneaky and very precise. Fear is is the basic open gunfire, and guilt hits like missiles. And the shame, well shame hits me like an A-bomb and then I am dead in my tracks. I can't seem to move beyond the shame much.

Yes, I think about the big "S" when I get like this - some nice, easy peaceful way to do it that wouldn't involve blood or pain. But again, I am chicken and since I don't know if it is a sin or not I don't dare risk it. Plus I really don't want to screw up my daughter's life and I think a depressed mom is better than a dead one. My mom was depressed (still is) and even though it screwed me up plenty (she didn't have the help of therapy or antidepressants available) I love her to pieces and couldn't imagine my life without her.

The best defense I have found so far against all of this self-abuse is to simply count my blessings. Easier said than done but hey, it's something.

Thankyou for your replies.

River, I am such a chicken and can't even stand watching someone in the movie's doing something like that. I don't believe that I want to kill myself. It just seemed like a way to release pain, or anxiety. Almost like a pressure release valve.

I have talked with some people and one person in particular said it was probably because I don't feel on the inside so I have to hurt my outside to feel on the inside. That sort of makes sense to me, as I have told my T on many occassions that I don't feel.

I will see how thing go on the weekend.


Sea

Hi Kats,
I am sorry you are experiencing such distress and anxiety. I have been there to lately with similar thoughts and brief actions of self harm. I think that we are looking for another way to numb the pain from the emotions that we are now feeling from the lack of alcohol. That's my guess. I dont know about you, but for me the cravings and urges to drink have been enormous although I've managed to hold it at bay. But that's what it feels like, like I am just putting it off and that can't be good. I see the snare right there if i don't do something different.

I am like you, I really don't want to hurt myself and I wonder the next day who that person was that could do such a thing. I am typically squeamish and to actually "cut" I can't do that. But I do other things to self harm and I think it is to match the tremendous pain we are feeling inside with something external. It's sort of a release, as your T said.

My T and I were going to address this yesterday, but oddly enough it didn't get brought up in the heat of where the discussion went.

I am sorry you are feeling so much inner turmoil. The important thing is for us to find healthy external releases for our emotions. Posting here is always a great way to fulfill that. But perhaps we can find a way to counter-act our need to self mutilate by trying to do someting kind for ourselves instead. I don't know if that is Pollyannish or not. But maybe we can try this and see how it goes. I know I don't want to get into the habit of this myself. We do have choice to externalize (positive release) the pain rather than to internalize. Internalizing is where self-destructive patterns emerge from and as you are very well aware, they are not useful.

So lets figure out a way to be kind to ourselves and think of what we would say to each other in those moments rather than choose to self destruct. I know I sure could use re-direction in those moments.

JM

Oh and another thought. Until the other day when I was expressing something like this on forum, I had forgotten I used to bite myself when I was a child. So it was an old pattern that re-emerged for me out of the forgotten bag of turmoil. And I will even admit I tried to commit suicide when I was 15 years old. It was more a strong plea for help, but it was sadly soon forgotten and my environment didn't change. But somehow I decided to pull myself up and set goals for myself w/o any help from anyone. Believe me what I did and the consequences I suffered from it made a frightening impression more than anyone around me could or would. I am glad I never succeeded in ending my life. I too just wanted to end the pain and those thoughts still plague me from time to time. They have gotten better than they were a few years ago when I was desperately seeking a way out again and the thinking became so strong that it again became an option and I knew I had to do something. Like River I thought of my daughter, even though she is grown she would be the one hurt the most and I couldn't bear to hurt her that way.

I am certain that we will get through this and therapy will help. I am glad you are keeping an open dialogue with your T like this too Kats. That is the BEST place to go with it.

Kats,
I'm sorry you're struggling with these feelings but, and stay with me here, in some ways its a positive sign. I have a family member who has struggled with cutting and its actually an attempt to express emotional anguish. People who cut usually have a difficult time expressing how they're feeling so they cut in order to be able to feel. So although on the surface it can look like an act of self-hatred or an indication of suicidal tendencies, its anything but. So the fact that you are feeling this is a sign that you are learning to experience your feelings but since you're also trying to regulate them, you are struggling for a way to handle them.

The other aspect of cutting is that when you are injured, your body releases endorphins in order to deal with the pain and elevate your healing capacity. So in some ways cutting is an attempt to force your body to produce its own anti-depressents. So people who self-injure (SI) don't enjoy the pain but they do enjoy the sensation of relief that comes with the endorphins. That's actually why SI can become addictive and dangerous because like any addiction you have to keep upping the dose to get the same high, so the injuries become more severe. But it's important to make the distinction that its not about injuring yourself, it's about relief.

And I don't think it will become a problem because you're working in therapy with someone who can help you to express your feelings in healthier ways. I think its really good that you're talking about feeling this way.

AG

Great post AG

You have just explained it quite well I think.

I have kinda avoided posting in this thread because I've had a really severe problem with this SI issue. I've recovered from it...for the most part, although the urges remain and are hard to deal with.
I will try to answer any questions that anyone might have about it...but I don't have the definitive answer. I only have my answers.
What I have to add right now is that dealing with the aftermath is devastating. In the moment...you never think about the scars that are going to remain throughout your life or the stigma attached to that. What is written on your body...is permanent. You can't change it or explain it away.
Those of us that have been caught in this wicked snare are continuing to live with the consequences.


To Kats...
All I can say is that you must talk about what you are feeling and resist this impulse in any way that you can. Living with the scars is harder than the feelings you are trying to repress or express. Give up the secret verbally and don't carve it on your body. You may decide, sometime in the future, that it is not something you want to share with everyone. Try to love yourself more than you love your secrets. Does that make any sense?

SD

SD..

I am so sorry for bringing up something that is so hurtful. I am very gratefull for your reply.

AG..Thankyou very much for your reply. I think that you hit the nail on the head with

quote:

People who cut usually have a difficult time expressing how they're feeling so they cut in order to be able to feel

That is exactly how I was feeling. Alot of the anxiety has left and I feel better. I now understand this better.

I talked to my rehab counsellor about this yesterday, and he was not too alarmed. As addicts he says that we may feel this as we need to find a way to deal with our emotions other than drinking.

I do find this very trying at times. Much harder to quit drinking than I thought. The not drinking part is easy, dealing with why I drank very hard.

Thankyou everyone for helping me and putting up with me. I really don't feel that I can give advice here, but I do know I could be more active just being supportive

Kats

Thanks HB...

You don't know how much your comment helped me tonight. I am feeling a bit alone and insecure and it helps to know that maybe I have something of value to add to this forum.

Kats...
This is a difficult topic...but it is also a very important one. It was really brave of you to step up and tell us how you were feeling. I think that a lot people have these feelings but fear admitting them. It is not hurtful for me to talk about this...it is a very real part of my past and I can handle it. I've had more experience with it than I would like to admit...but that is my reality. Please let me know if there is any way I can help you.

Even as hard as this subject is...this is a very important thread and I'm glad that you posted it.

SD

Hi Katz-
I think it was really smart of you to post this to the group- it's a sign that you are listening to your body and that is always a good thing.

quote:

All weekend long I was under some amazing anxiety and not sure why. This anxiety culminated with me having thoughts of cutting my wrists. I could actually feel it in my wrists.

I wanted to let you know that I think I understand some of what you are feeling here. I have a history of SI, and for me, it involved extreme anxiety. I can remember feeling overwhelmed, without words, and then I would be overcome with a desire to hurt myself. But what I know now, that I didn't know then (at the age of 15), is that the desire to hurt myself was really a desire to release the tension built up inside of me. There is a difference, and I didn't distinguish that for a while!

And I think what AG said is very important here, that this may be about you beginning to feel. At 15, when my urges to hurt myself intensified, I was also beginning to understand how screwed up things in my house were. The evidence laid out in front of me about how dysfunctional things were was all of the sudden overriding the denial/immaturity I had been hiding behind for years. I guess, I mean that as I grasped reality a little more (like you are most likely doing with your T), I started having these things called feelings and I had NO clue what to do with them! But the key is that the anguish of my internal stuggle magnified when I began to see things realistically. Does that make sense? The fact that you are feeling may mean that you are emerging from your numbness... now it's just a matter of figuring out how to externally discharge the anxiety you have.

quote:

I mentioned this to my T and she said I was looking for a release of some sort.

I will say that my urges to hurt myself significantly diminished when my therapist recommended I start doing "tension release activities." She wants me to regularly engage in a physical, non violent, activities so that I can aviod the build up inside of me (I am poor at regulating when my emotions are getting too much for me until it is too late). It really has helped me out a lot, and this is probably what your T was saying, about needing a release. Fyi: examples of tension release activities for me include walking, batting cages, kicking a soccer ball around, playing wii... basically anything active that gets some of my energy out.

SD-

quote:

What is written on your body...is permanent. You can't change it or explain it away. Those of us that have been caught in this wicked snare are continuing to live with the consequences.

I really understand you on this one. It is hard to live with the scars sometimes, but like you said, it is part of reality. Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone out there, and the urges are difficult for me still too.

-CT

Thanks CT....and HI...*this is me wavin *

I haven't yet said hello to you...and I'm glad you decided to stick around!

You know...it's interesting that even though I've had my scars grafted over...I can still see them as they were. I do of course have the grafts and it's still hard to explain why I have "handy wipes" sewn to my body. But at least people are not as uncomfortable with it. That is...they don't stare at me in abject horror.

Ohhh...my....what a ride...how many times have I said..."Stop the world...I wanna get off!!!"

Well...welcome to the RIDE!!!

SD

Thank you for talking about this.

Kats: I hope you are getting the help you need before you go down the SI road.

I still get the abject horror looks.
One female doctor turned away shuddering.
It's terrible to live with the reminders.

I am so ashamed
I stay away from health care if I have any choice.

and I try not to think about it.

The scars reflect the depth of pain and profound hurt inside. I used to think that words didn't work for me.

The big thing in therapy is to try to SAY what's going on, verbalize the pain, tell her what I'm experiencing inside, let her in, let her see me, and ask for what I need.

It is no cake walk.

Been going through some rough stuff and finding transference issues with T and realization of the pain of what has happened in my life almost unbearable sometimes. I feel like I want someone to take full responsibility of my life all the time as I don't feel I can cope and most of the time that person is my T who seems to care for me.

I have been struggling with suicidal thoughts for months now, they've almost become commonplace and like my problems with food, I am angry at myself for not being able to cause more harm to myself (or in the food case, become anorexic) Utterly irrational I know but it is how I feel, that I am weak for not being able to go through with these things. I have to rub my hands off of surfaces and, most recently I started scraping my hands with my keys, in an effort to get some release. I just so scared, like I am with every other aspect of my life.

My T has spoken about transference and how I have difficulty ever getting enough love, acceptence and reassurance....that I keep wanting the stakes to be higher because I never feel worthy enough of someone's care unless it is drastic circumstances. So in that sense i almost feel like my T will get annoyed at me if I turn up to him saying I've hurt myself. I don't think I'm doing it for attention, though I know part of me would love for him to get worried and to care about me.

So confused!

I need some advice.

I've made a few attempts at self harm over the past few months. Tonight I did again and I feel like I need to do something. I'm seeing a T once a week but there's this centre that specialises in self-harm and suicidal thinking. I feel like this isn't a big deal, that I'm not causing severe or even moderate injury to myself and I should just get on with it. I don't know what to do. Maybe i need to take action. I can't tell my friend's what I've done, it's not fair to them.

Mrs. P

(((((Mrs. P)))))

I'm sorry to hear that you are harming yourself, even if it doesn't cause serious injury. From what I've read on this board from others who've been there, it is a response to hurting inside. And I wish you weren't hurting, but I'm glad you spoke up about it. I think you are probably right about needing to do something.

Why not check out the center and see what it has to offer? Is it a crisis center where they stabilize you and then just let you go, or do they offer therapy to get to the reasons that lead you to want to self-harm in the first place? Maybe they could at least give you a referral.

Please keep us updated on how you are doing with this.

Hugs,
SG

I was in that place for a couple of years. What I did to myself was really mild. The problem wasn't really the physical damage (since it was so minor) the problem was that I kept doing it. It became addicting. About three months ago, I did enough damage that I went to the ER. Now I've got about 25 quite permanent scars and it's a constant struggle to stop and stay that way.

Basically, my self injury stopped being just a (poor) coping mechanism and evolved it's it's very own problem.

Try not to feel ashamed. Try not to trivialize it either. Harming yourself means something is wrong. I hope you can get the help you need.

I would definitely encourage you to talk to your T about this (if you haven't already) and also about the center.

Thank you all so much for your responses, they helped a lot and were really important to me. Rather than clogging up the forum I'll just send you guys to the "CL thread" for an update as it's easier.

Mrs. P

quote:

Try not to feel ashamed. Try not to trivialize it either. Harming yourself means something is wrong. I hope you can get the help you need.

I would definitely encourage you to talk to your T about this (if you haven't already)...

I have been cutting occasionally for the past 4 months, but I have not been so out of control to have required medical attention for it. It has been a way for me to stay alive when the anxiety and anger was so great that I thought I would end everything if I didn't do something else to distract from the pain and self-hatred. Still, I wish the cuts did not leave scars, and it has been very difficult to hide them from my spouse. He has asked me about a few of them before and I lied about it. Since then I try to cut in the same area over and over so there are fewer places I need to hide from his view.

My T knows I have done it because I let her read some emails I wrote to Samaritans where I talked about it. But she has never once brought it up for discussion. I think either my T is very uncomfortable with the subject or else she believes talking about SI will encourage me to do it even more. Sometimes I wish I could talk about it with her, but then I reason that it really isn't that big of an issue if I don't even need stitches, right?

I don't know MH, for me this is some issue. I can't personally get my head around it, but whether you need to be stiched or not, that is something serious. Maybe you should talk to her about it.
I had once in my life suicidal mood for sometime. I felt that I wanted to die, cause I though that was the only way out of pain that I was feeling. But I knew I could not do anything that would be painful.
I don't know MH, it's very hard for me to understand. I suppose I was kind of self-harming myself emotionally in some past situations, that's also something that I don't understand really.

I have been cutting since I was 15 and I am now 26. I have lots of scars from it and have been in the psych hospital 10+ times because of it. I have never needed stitches because I will stop and move to a new spot before I go deep enough to need medical attention. That was the only wayb I could hide it from my parents. My therapist talked to me about it from the beginning. They still talk to me about it and I havent cut in 7 months. I would be mad if my T wouldnt talk to me about it because it is important and a part of who i am

Hi all,

I've not self-harmed like this, but what scares me when I read accounts like yours of how people feel when they do it, is that I can understand the compulsion. I could see myself trying it and it quickly becoming something hard to stop or control. MH, I hope you will try to talk to your T about it. It is extremely important, like others have said here, it is a symptom that something inside of you needs attention. For me, it is chronic stomachaches or headaches (from what some would call "emotional cutting", maybe, when I've been wallowing in self-loathing). For others, it is bleeding and scars from physical cutting. Either way it is a sign that there is emotional pain inside of us that desperately needs attention.

Pippi, I'm so glad for you that your therapist keeps the subject open with you. Congratulations on not cutting for 7 months, that is wonderful.

Peace,
SG

sorry all, taking down my last message because it didn't feel like it came from a good place inside me. I'll leave the end, though -

I just wish you great speed and energy on your journey to finding (or continuing to find) other ways.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Hatter:
My T knows I have done it because I let her read some emails I wrote to Samaritans where I talked about it. But she has never once brought it up for discussion. I think either my T is very uncomfortable with the subject or else she believes talking about SI will encourage me to do it even more. Sometimes I wish I could talk about it with her, but then I reason that it really isn't that big of an issue if I don't even need stitches, right?

It is certainly possible that your T is uncomfortable with SI. Not all health care professionals know how to handle it or understand it. My T has not dealt with very many patients who SI and the two of us seem to be stumbling around trying to figure out what to do about it. There are certainly known techniques that have a good success rate, like DBT, but where I am, it's only really available in a partial or full hospitalization setting, which makes it rather inaccessible.

What we have sort of settled on, I think, is that I tell my T each and every time I make a cut. He looks at the cut(s) and we talk about what I was feeling before, during and after. I haven't cut in 25 days. I think something that is really helping me is art. I feel like I can pour those emotions onto an image instead of out of my skin.

Is it a big issue? Yes and no. If you aren't doing a lot of damage, and aren't suicidal, then it's mostly a really poor coping mechanism. Its one that is hard to talk about because most people don't understand it and are afraid of it. So it carries with it more emotions, like shame. In the end, is what you get out of it worth the cost? You get some temporary relief and then you pay the price in scars, shame, embarrassment, fear, anxiety, uncertainty ... etc.

If you don't want to stop, you probably won't be able to.

I just wanted to offer hugs.

Disclaimer: I don't want to trigger anyone over reading this post, because I was emotional when I wrote it...so please just skip reading this post if you are too sensitive about the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Z:
If you don't want to stop, you probably won't be able to.

I have not SI'd since my last post on this topic. I have been trying to think about what SD wrote, that maybe someday I would decide I don't want a permanent record of my private pain revealed to other people every time they see the scarred parts of my body. I need to think about the long-term after effects.

But these last few days...I just want to hurt myself! To slash recklessly. To not even be careful about it this time. To bleed profusely. To feel the anguish. To feel the anger. To punish.

I must find a better way that does not leave a lasting trace, but I still need to HURT somehow. It is too much to contain.

I feel like I had to cut "good enough" before I could stop, like I had to prove (to who?) that I could do real damage and I wasn't just playing.

It has been easier for me not to cut lately. I think that I'm now satisfied that I can do the damage if I want to. I have also changed around my medications and gotten involved in some new things. (Karate and Meditation)

I hope what I said wasn't discouraging. Its what I came up against. My T and I could come up with all the strategies / threats / non-threats / whatever in the world, but in the end, nothing was going to work until I was ready to stop.

Here is my advice (as a self injurer, not a medical professional.) Do everything you can to try and distract yourself with other activities. Try some non-destructive ways to get release, the common ones I hear are to draw with red on your arm or use ice cubes. I find ice works for me sometimes. Talk to people, friends, co-workers, family, your doctors. Doesn't have to be about what's troubling you, just make connections with other people. Go to lolcats and look at kittens. Throw things. Go someplace public and hang out so you aren't sitting in your bathroom with something sharp.

Feeling the way you are feeling is punishment all by itself, you don't need to punish yourself further by injuring yourself. Let yourself feel the anguish and anger and cry or yell or write.

I don't know if any of that will help, but I hope you find the strength to get through. Even if you do SI, that's not a failure, it's a step backward, you can still keep moving forward.

Hi there MH,
I don't think we've met... Just wanted to say that I was touched by your post mainly because I have felt like this:

quote:

I just want to hurt myself! To slash recklessly. To not even be careful about it this time. To bleed profusely. To feel the anguish. To feel the anger. To punish.

before. I started cutting when I was 15 and did so until I was 17 or so. I stopped for about 4 years until I really got into some deep stuff in therapy. I've probably cut 5 or so times in the last year and a half, and all of those instances have been because I was angry and wanted to hurt (physically). My t wants me to use other methods to "release the tension" but so far, nothing really compares to the feelings I get when I cut. Plus, I feel like I deserve it in that moment. I have this voice that says "sure, you could call a friend and talk... but no one wants to listen to you... you don't deserve friendship." In that moment, while I KNOW it isn't true, I can't seem to do anything other than cut... it's literally a paralyzing feeling. I can't really wrap my brain around doing anything differently when I feel like that...

But I don't want to cut forever. Like you said, I want to find a better way to discharge my rage when it gets really bad. At some point, reason and logic are going to have to win out over that voice in me that urges me inward. I think one of the most important things I've learned in my journey is that no matter what that voice says or does now, it once had a purpose in my life... a very important purpose. As a child or teen, letting out my frustration and feeling like I had a voice would have been a DISASTER for me. It was imperitive, in my environment, that I hide my emotions from the people around me. That voice in my head screams, "NO! DON'T OPEN YOUR MOUTH! IT'S DANGEROUS" because it really did used to be dangerous to do anything other than cut. But now, that isn't the case. It's not dangerous to be healthy anymore, but there is a very scared little girl in me who is terrified to try it out.

I don't know if any of this makes sense... or if it applies to your situation. I guess I'm just trying to say that i ususally am tempted to cut most when I'm on the verge of doing something REALLY healthy and appropriate... cuz that's what feels the scariest and strangest. But, as my t pointed out two weeks ago, feeling something that "isn't normal" in my case is probably a good thing.

Try to keep fighting it... as yourself what may be causing the intense anger. It's there, but what's fueling it?

-CT

quote:

Originally posted by Z:
Feeling the way you are feeling is punishment all by itself, you don't need to punish yourself further by injuring yourself. Let yourself feel the anguish and anger and cry or yell or write.

Heather, thank you for your encouragement. You probably already relate to this, but I often feel like my psychic pain must not be real unless I can see evidence of it. Or the mental self-punishment isn't good enough unless I can see physical damage. So I don't think the ice-cube thing is going to help me. Drawing on myself with red ink seems kind of silly, but then so does cutting, right? Maybe I will give it a try.

quote:

Originally posted by CT:
As a child or teen, letting out my frustration and feeling like I had a voice would have been a DISASTER for me.

CT, thanks so much for sharing. I can relate to your quote, but I haven't thought about how it could be a contributing factor to my cutting until you posted it. Gives me something to self-evaluate. It has been many years since I was in that situation of being perpetually silenced by force, but maybe it is ingrained within me to act as if that is still the case.

quote:

Originally posted by CT:
I feel like I deserve it in that moment.

I think this kind of feeling is difficult to communicate no matter what the circumstances. For me, I often feel deserving of more than a superficial cut -- I feel deserving of death, and the cutting is just staving that off. But how can you explain feelings of self-directed fury and loathing to someone who has never felt that way themselves? Even my T admits she has never felt she deserved to die. Has she wanted to die, yes, but not because she felt deserving of it. Sometimes an ugly cut just says it better.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Hatter:
Heather, thank you for your encouragement. You probably already relate to this, but I often feel like my psychic pain must not be real unless I can see evidence of it. Or the mental self-punishment isn't good enough unless I can see physical damage. So I don't think the ice-cube thing is going to help me. Drawing on myself with red ink seems kind of silly, but then so does cutting, right? Maybe I will give it a try.

Self injury is so tough. One of the (many) reasons I did it was to "prove" that I was really hurting. Show it in a way that people could see.

If you can, try not to see think of the mental pain as "self-punishment" .... you are miserable, you don't need to make yourself more miserable, mentally or physically. I'm not saying you can just flip a switch and make it happen, but if you can be a little kind to yourself and a little gentler, maybe eventually you won't feel like you need to be punished.

Hi everyone...back to this topic again, thanks for sharing because, while it's very sad, it's good to know I'm not alone in a way.

The feelings of wanting to self-injure are quite overwhelming. Sometimes, or at least after alcohol, I can feel quite disconnected. I once walked into a friends kitchen casually on my own, picked up a kitchen knife and went into the bathroom and began to scrape along my skin. And the thing is I feel bad because I cannot make cuts to leave scars....I know that sounds wrong on so many levels but like Z is saying, I need to prove to myself that I'm not making this pain up, that it's not all in my head. I feel weak that I don't self-injure enough, that I do not have an eating disorder. I have ran my hands over wine glasses imaginging what it would feel like to shatter it and cut myself with them. I visualise stuff like that quite a bit when I'm very down.

Right now I am not particularly thinking this way, and again, that makes me feel weak. I deserve it in a sense, I need to do it to validate my feelings. It is like when I was about to get anti-depressants-I thought once a GP said I was sick it would be ok, that I'd stop doubting myself. But I still haven't. When I'm not toally depressed I feel guilty as i think I must be making it up.

Mrs. P

Please forgive me or go away and skip this post if you can't handle it, but I need to vent. I need an outlet before this panic completely overtakes me. I don't even know if I can write coherently.

My T threatened me today over SI. I am not sure exactly what consequence she has in mind, just that she firmly insisted she would not allow active SI, and that I am not to do it anymore. I asked, "Are you threatening me with the execution boundary?" She only said, "It IS a boundary with ALL of my clients."

I was /still am in shock. I totally did not see this coming. Why? Because she knows I have cut in the past but has never given me an ultimatum before. Our last discussion about it was right around Christmas, when I acknowledged doing it (only after she asked) but told her I didn't do it "very much" and had never sought medical attention for it. I remember telling her I had discovered taking an extremely hot bath sometimes works as a deterrent. Anyway, at that time she really didn't say much, and I took her non-reaction as a sign it wasn't necessary to make too big of a fuss over it. But today when I pointed this out (i.e., why the sudden switch to negative attention towards my SI?), she claimed she had been under the impression that my cutting was not a current issue. I never claimed that. I just don't generally talk about it.

What brought up this issue is that I sent a text to my T a few days ago and part of what I wrote is that I needed to cut. I was in a distressed state following a session and I told her I wanted to communicate how badly I was feeling inside. Then during today's session she brought it up, suggesting I was feeling guilty for cutting. I said she had it wrong, that I felt guilty for not cutting enough . I guess I've erroneously started to feel too safe - mistakenly believing I could really be free to tell her anything without fear of consequences. I never would have mentioned cutting if I had known how she would react today.

My knee-jerk reaction to her prohibition was to respond that maybe I just wouldn't bring it up in the future, so how would she know? She said, "Because I'll ask." Well, I could always lie, right? Yeah, except I am a poor liar and she'd see right through me if I tried.

I tried quoting one of her recent lines to me: "But you told me that you cared enough to let me do what I must -- that it was the unselfish kind of caring and just the risk you had to take." She said yes but it didn't apply to harming myself. I said, "Well, I'm not hurting anyone else!" She said, "You wouldn't allow one of your own children to cut themselves, would you?" That was a trap. It's not quite the same thing. Of course I wouldn't allow my kids to purposely cut themselves because they are young and innocent. But even more is that cutting would serve no useful purpose for them. Yet as an adult w/issues, SI functions to reduce my anxiety enough to keep me alive and somewhat functional. That's a very useful purpose, right? It would be better if I didn't have the distress to begin with, but since I do I use what I must in order to deal with it.

Look, I know SI is not the best thing, especially if one can find healthier alternatives. My T says I have to find some better coping skills, but how can she mandate that I accomplish this overnight? And doesn't she know that when you forbid someone to do something it just makes them want to do it even more? What am I supposed to do when all this pressure builds up inside again and I have no outlet for it? What if she tries to force me to choose between cutting and continuing with her as my T? She has promised me over and over that she will not abandon me. Was it just words after all? Is she going to renege on her promise?

(((((Mad Hatter)))))

I'm sorry for the panick and shock you are feeling right now! It's so disorienting when our T's suddenly seem to change the "rules". Feels like the ground is shifting underneath, nothing feels solid. But I'm really glad you came here to vent.

From what your T said, it doesn't sound to me like she's going to abandon you. When she said you wouldn't allow your own children to cut themselves, it made me wonder if she sees you as one of her "children". It sounds like she really cares about you and is frightened for you. That she sees cutting as something dangerous to you and wants to protect you and see you healed. Perhaps her sternness was an expression of her fear for someone she cares about - much like the reaction a parent has when their child comes frighteningly close to being harmed.

I wish I knew what to suggest as an alternate way of coping. I've never SI'd so please forgive me if this is too simplistic...and you've probably thought of it anyway...I was thinking of the principle of "talk about it, just don't act on it" in therapy. Usually it's mentioned in reference to transference but maybe it could apply here too. When the pressure builds up inside, would it be possible to talk to her about it instead, so she can help you find out where these feelings are coming from? Or can you express the dark feelings in drawings, paintings, poetry that you bring to session to share? Does she have experience helping patients who SI?

It must be so hard to live with this...I hope what happened in your session ends up strengthening your relationship with your T and gives you the chance to heal so you don't have thoughts of hurting yourself anymore. You are an insightful, compassionate, intelligent, beautiful person and you certainly don't deserve to be hurt at all.

SG

SG, thanks for trying. I appreciate your good heart and kind support. I would like to write a better response later but I am nodding off at the keyboard as it is. Guess I am exhausted 'cuz this ain't like me.

Oh, MH, I'm so sorry about what happened today! (((((MH)))))) I'm so glad you came here to vent though! Good job on getting it out.

My t also reacts very strongly when I tell her that I've been cutting, or that I'm thinking about it. She has never threatened me, but she certainly challenges me and damn near hounds me to death trying to get me to choose to do something different. She and I have gone around the whole thing many times, and as I'm sure you've heard, she tells me that it is unhealthy, even though it may be effective. She says there are better ways of releasing that built up tension that makes me want to cut, and I tell her I don't want to be gentle, that I want to hurt myself, and then she says that she knows I do but that I don't have to do it just because I feel like I need to... **round and round and round we go**

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I know it's hard when your t REALLY doesn't want you to do something, even though it's something that "works" for you (and me!). What I think, however, is because your t didn't understand that you were actively cutting, she heard you say

quote:

I said she had it wrong, that I felt guilty for not cutting enough

and then a light bulb clicked for her. I don't think she's trying to threaten you with termination as much as she is trying to get your desire to work with her and be close to her to fight against your desire to cut and harm yourself. I wholeheartedly agree with SG about how she probably sees you as one of her kids, and she simply won't watch you hurt yourself like that. I think, like my t, she's saying "i'll sit here with you while you feel the pain, but I can't condone you physically hurting yourself like this." My t often says that her putting up with that, or "going along" with me is like her "it's okay, I agree that you have to do that" when that isn't really how she feels.

quote:

I guess I've erroneously started to feel too safe - mistakenly believing I could really be free to tell her anything without fear of consequences.

I hear you when you say that you feel like you shouldn't have let yourself feel safe because I'm sure it feels like that. It's always difficult when we run headlong into our t's boundaries. However, I don't think the relationship we have with our t's is supposed to be consequence-free (this is just my opinion). I mean, while it is OUR time, we don't get to do whatever we please in there, you know? We do have the expectation that we won't be judged, however, and I don't think your t is judgin you. I think she is just telling you what she will not condone. I think your "oh, shit, I'm not safe" meter is going off because of the miscommunication- she thought you weren't cutting and you thought she realized you were. I think this "rocking of the boat" is more abrasive than the boundary itself.
And the truth is, you can lie and not tell her about it. She can't MAKE you stop cutting, that's a choice you get.

But I think your uncomfortable with her challenging you on it altogether. I'd like to say a few more things, but I very well may piss you off, and if I do, you may tell me to go fly a kite! I just think, as someone who has rationalized self-mutilation with the best of them, I need to kinda call you on two things (sorry if I don't know you well enough to this, but I'm taking a risk!!).

1)

quote:

"But you told me that you cared enough to let me do what I must -- that it was the unselfish kind of caring and just the risk you had to take."

I don't think, in any way shape or form, did your t mean that she cared about you ENOUGH to let you hurt yourself. The way I (a third party mind you) interpreted this was that she indeed loves and cares about you enough to let you do as you please, since she can't stop you, but the risk she takes is by investing so much in you, despite the fact that it's ultimately up to YOU what you do with her help. I see it as her loving you ENOUGH to challenge you on something and potentially upset you in order for you to be healthy. She loves you just the same no matter what, but in this instance, you may choose cutting over staying in relationship with her, and she risks that. She doesn't treat you differently, she gives fully of herself to you, unselfishly, not knowing how you'll take it or if you'll choose to receive her. But I don't think you have a free pass from her. That, IMO, isn't caring for another.

2)

quote:

said, "You wouldn't allow one of your own children to cut themselves, would you?" That was a trap. It's not quite the same thing. Of course I wouldn't allow my kids to purposely cut themselves because they are young and innocent. But even more is that cutting would serve no useful purpose for them. Yet as an adult w/issues, SI functions to reduce my anxiety enough to keep me alive and somewhat functional. That's a very useful purpose, right? It would be better if I didn't have the distress to begin with, but since I do I use what I must in order to deal with it.

I think your t meant, if your kids were in YOUR POSITION, right now, what would you want them to do? Of course your kids cutting now isn't comprable, but what if you were YOUR mother, in this moment. Would you say, hey, do what you need to do. Or would you say, I believe that you can find a better alternative and then push for it with all your might?

MH, I know cutting works. I know it's calming and makes you feel better and quiet for a while. I still struggle with it, and I'm not trying to make it seem like I have all the answers. But I don't want you to sit comfortably in this place, thinking that your t is attacking you because she wants to abandon you. I know it might feel that way, and I respect that. But I don't think it is reality. I believe that you and I both can acquire the skills to make different choices when we get all built up with anxiety. The truth is, we don't have to cut to live. We have other choices, one of which is to sit with the anxiety, with our t's, until we learn that feelings come and go.

I know I'm going on and on and if your still reading, please know that I don't think you can stop hurting yourself overnight. But i think you can try different ways of dealing with it. One thing I tell myself is "if I'm not going to stop now, then when? there's never a good, convenient time!" And all you have to do is stop, for this minute, this hour, this afternoon, etc. It doesn't have to be a OMG I CAN'T EVER DO THIS AGAIN. Your t isn't going to leave you. She wants you to choose to attempt to be healthier, and she's firm so that you'll know she's serious.

Okay, I'll leave you be now. Sorry to give you such a hard time! Just know that if you choose to keep cutting, I will understand. I won't think of you any different!!

-A long winded CT!

My T and I have also gone around and around on SI, trying to find what reaction from him will help me not cut.

We tried "threats" - like that he would send me to the hospital if I didn't stop. That made me want to cut more because I wanted to challenge him and see if he would really do it.

We tried "punishments" - like that he wouldn't hold my hands during sessions after I cut. Thing is, I know he likes holding my hands too, so it becomes a way for me to punish him at the same time, so we abandoned that one before it ever happened.

We tried me calling him before hand - that didn't work because my desire to cut was so constant that I really had no idea when I'd actually flip over and cut.

With my med perscribers they have threatened to take me off drugs / increase my dose on this that or the other thing. Threatening to take away my drugs worked pretty well, until it was clear that the drug wasn't causing SI, then the threats were empty.

Finally, what we've ended up with goes like this:
1) I tell my T after each time I cut, either before or during the session.
2) He looks at what I've done to myself and holds it. (It feels like he is acknowledging the pain that is represented there.)
3) He asks me if cutting helped
4) He asks how I felt leading up to cutting

I describe it as this bizarre mix of caring and not caring. He says that he isn't worried about the physical damage, because I don't do anything really dangerous, but he cares about the feelings that brought me to where I felt I needed to.

Oddly enough, the biggest deterrent for me is that I don't want to spend the entire session talking about cutting, I have other things I want to talk about, but if I cut, that's what we talk about.

I don't know if any of that would help you, but it's the technique that finally works for me. Perhaps you can talk to your T about ways she can help you that are more effective then threats and black and white lines.

Also, DBT can be effective with SI, it's been "highly recommended" (as in, I probably wouldn't have had much choice in the matter) but we couldn't find a group in my area. Perhaps that's something you could discuss as well.

I really hope that you and your T can find a way to work together on this. Hang in there!

SG, CT, Z, JD, thank you so much for your support. It means so much because I really need some feedback right now. And no, I am not offended at anything you have written. I think I am panicking a bit less this morning, trying to believe, like you all say, that my T only cares for me. I hope that means she won't leave me if I am not perfect for her. I don't think I can even try to stop SI if her acceptance of me is conditional upon it. That thought just makes me want to give up right now. I am scheduled for another appointment tomorrow. Maybe if you don't mind I will print off your replies and take them with me into session to help me start a dialogue with her about this.

You are certainly welcome to use what I've written. I wish you the best with this!

Warmly

I'm glad to hear that you're doing a little better today, and I'm glad you've got another session tomorrow! You're welcome to take anything I've written in to your t, just tell her to excuse the typos! LOL!

-CT

MH- I am sorry that you are having to go through this right now. I know how it feels to have someone use the self-injury against you in that way. My P used to tell me that. In the beginning my SI didnt seem that big of a deal and we would talk about it and he would even look at my cuts to make sure that I had not gone too far. But for about the last three years he has had a problem with it. He would tell me when I texted him saying I needed to cut that it sounds like I need to be in the hospital and he doesnt do work with patients that need to be in the hospital. He even at a point told me if I cut he was done seeing me. It hurt to hear him say that but it did keeping from SI because I was too scared to loose him. I had to decide what was more important, a relationship with him or my cutting, which for me was a relationship with him cause I was so in love with him. It was a very hard thing not to do but when I would get to the point where I needed to cut I would sit myself down and seriously think about the consequences and if it was worth it or not. It never was. He has also told me to never text or call him again and say I need to cut. I was allowed to do that in the beginning to make him understand how bad I felt but for the last few years he has wanted me to say what I was feeling not what I felt like doing. I didnt realize how big of a difference that would make with him. But the first time I sent a text telling him I felt anxious, scared and hurt and did not even mention SI he responded by calling me back to talk about it and was so proud of me.

Now within the last few months it has gone back to not being such a big deal. I know he wont stop seeing me if I cut even though that was the deal in the past. But he also knows I am trying to work on ways to keep from doing it and in fact I get my 1 year chip on Monday for not cutting. But I know that if I screw up tomorrow he will still be there, but I guess he also changed his view on it when some of my behaviors worried him more than the cutting did. Mixing alcohol with pills worried him more so at that time he would rather me cut than do what I was doing.

And he has used my kids before saying I wouldnt let them cut which I agreed and had the same kind of response to it you did as it wouldnt work well for them but IM an adult who has problems and cutting helps. Which his reply was that cutting is only a short term solution and the way that I feel about my kids doing it is the same way he feels about me doing it. He said he can look at me and know that there are better ways to handle the problems and that I would just have to trust him and work with him on that because I couldnt see it yet.

I also mentioned just lying about it to him if I did cut and he said I could do that but it really wouldnt get us anywhere because the therapy would become a lie and as long as there is a lie in in therapy you wont really be progressing.

Hopefully you can talk to her and tell her how you feel about all of this.

quote:

I also mentioned just lying about it to him if I did cut and he said I could do that but it really wouldnt get us anywhere because the therapy would become a lie and as long as there is a lie in in therapy you wont really be progressing.

Maybe its just me not wanting to take personal responsibility, but I feel like its my T's job to make it safe for me to be honest with her. How can I be honest if I am too scared of her reaction? There are worse things than cutting, like you said Pippi, and if I can't talk to her about cutting then I'm surely not going to talk about the worse things.

I guess really this is all my fault for not keeping my mouth shut to begin with. Maybe my T saw my text as manipulative. I admit I did want her to feel my pain. Maybe she resents me for that, and this ultimatum is her way of saying, "Don't force me to worry about you because it's not fair to me." So when she says no more cutting what she is really saying is she doesn't want to hear about it.