MH,
really sorry to hear that you feel so bad now.
Same as SG, I never felt like doing SI, but I'm kind of trying to understand where it comes from. I hear that it may have calming effect and I think I can understand, but I agree that this is not the way forward. I recently had a discussion about suicide with a friend and she thought it is only being selfish, harming your friends and family and taking the easy exit. Now that really bugged me. I never felt suicidal (maybe once for a short while), but I understand that it comes from the great unbearable suffering and it is not a bloody easy option to get away from life.

I think you need to talk more to your T about it. You said that she thought it was not present in your life now, so I'm sure she got really worried about you.
When you said you wouldn't let you child hurt themselves, but it is not quite the same thing for you. Well, I would strongly agree with your T that it is very much the same thing. You would strongly react to your child trying to do something harmful, while the child probably would not see the danger. I believe she has to be strong to protect you the best she can, even if you don't like it.
Can you call her or text her when these feelings are getting so strong? Would it be easier to withstand it if you could get connection with her for a while?

quote:

Maybe she resents me for that, and this ultimatum is her way of saying, "Don't force me to worry about you because it's not fair to me." So when she says no more cutting what she is really saying is she doesn't want to hear about it.

MH, I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's what she means. Please do tell her about it. I think it is very important, and i don't believe the slightest that she would abandon you for talking about it.

Hi MH;
I don't have any knowledge or experience with SI but, I can relate to anxiety. For me the anxiety is felt throughout my whole body, so i have to move- do something to exhaust my self. I go to the YMCA and either work out, do yoga, or the best thing I have found is to swim. I also downhill ski. Speed seems to help release the anxiety too. I find this to be the best way to get rid of my anxiety. My T was suggesting medication, but I refused because I wanted to try this first. I just tell my family that I need to swim- or ski.

Hi Mad Hatter, just wanted you to know I'm thinking about you and wondering how it went with your T...

Hi SG. Thanks for asking. Well, I printed off everyone's replies, from yours to Helle's and everyone in between, and took them with me into my last session. (Thank you all again. ) My T brought up SI immediately after I sat down. She was prepared with 12 pages of alternative coping suggestions for self-nurturing to send home with me. I admit I was impressed she had put forth that effort in my behalf (maybe because it meant she had actually thought about me in between sessions).

I asked her to read the forum posts I had brought, but she refused. She insisted I be the one to read them - something about me needing to "own" it. So I sat there stewing for about 15 minutes, just feeling uncomfortable and trying to come up with excuses to get out of it, but she wouldn't budge. I said, "I'm just going to waste the entire session sitting here," and she was like, "Maybe so." So I finally caved and read it all. It took almost another 30 minutes to get through 7 pages out loud. I don’t know why the time goes so fast during session yet seems to stretch on for eons between sessions! Needless to say, there wasn’t much time left for commentary. The only things I clearly remember her saying is (1) that every time I cut I am re-traumatizing myself from the past, that I’ve been hurt enough and don’t need to hurt anymore; and (2) what would my kids think if they were to witness me doing it? (I answered that they wouldn’t understand, but she said, “No, they would be terrified.”) I came away feeling that my T probably does care and probably is right, but am still scared and frustrated about this boundary.

I have sent her a few texts since then. In the first one I contested her charge that I was an addict. I said although I wish to relieve stress once in awhile, I am not hardcore. Just like an occasional drink does not make one an alcoholic. I asked her if she forbids all her clients to drink since it kills brain cells and impairs judgment. I don’t see the difference or how she can justify forbidding me to SI. She said it’s not a good comparison but she didn’t elaborate with reasons to back that up. I responded that she was right, it’s not a good comparison because drinking has much WORSE potential for harm. I mean, think of the lives that can be wiped out by one careless act of drunk driving. I don’t think my SI is going to do that. I think the main difference is just that society accepts self-destructive drinking behavior more than SI, probably because it's more common.

In the second text, I was mainly asking for her support to help get me through without cutting. For some reason Saturday was a rough day for my anxiety. I told her all the things I had tried to distract myself that weren’t working. I asked her why I should be expected to tolerate my distress when I could just end it? And I asked her if she was mad at me for bothering her again with my need, and that I was sorry but I was still trying. She didn’t answer about why I should still try but said she wasn’t mad, to keep trying, and that I could do it.

It has now been over a week since I last SI’ed. I have certainly gone longer than this before, but I am just not sure how strong my commitment is. I feel like my main reason for abstaining is to please my T. But on days when it seems like she doesn’t care - or doesn’t care enough - then what do I have to lose?

Hi MH....

I have a story for you...but first I want to say that I know how you feel with this "ultimatum" kind of contract. It is hard and hits all the rebellion buttons. But as you said. Your T does care about you and your children.

I know how hard it is to stop this behavior...but it is very much like an addiction in it's very nature. It makes you feel calmer...sleepy even. It feels right...it feels good. It makes you feel like the outside of you somehow matches the inside. It fills that aching hole in your soul, even if it's only temporary. But it is also illusion. It's not real...it is unreal....it becomes delusion.
I've been there...I know it and I'm sorry that I know it. It haunts me.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Hatter:
I came away feeling that my T probably does care and probably is right, but am still scared and frustrated about this boundary.

I have sent her a few texts since then. In the first one I contested her charge that I was an addict. I said although I wish to relieve stress once in awhile, I am not hardcore. Just like an occasional drink does not make one an alcoholic. I asked her if she forbids all her clients to drink since it kills brain cells and impairs judgment. I don’t see the difference or how she can justify forbidding me to SI. She said it’s not a good comparison but she didn’t elaborate with reasons to back that up. I responded that she was right, it’s not a good comparison because drinking has much WORSE potential for harm. I mean, think of the lives that can be wiped out by one careless act of drunk driving. I don’t think my SI is going to do that. I think the main difference is just that society accepts self-destructive drinking behavior more than SI, probably because it's more common.

Ok...here's my story. I was a very destructive cutter from the ages of 15-35. I now have permanent nerve damage to both of my arms. I had a plastic surgeon cover my scars with skin grafts but the damage was very bad. This is not the worst part of my story. In the 1980's I had several serious suicide attempts and nearly bled to death more than once. These attempts were interrupted...or I changed my mind. In the ER...I was given several units of blood...several times. As a result of needing those blood products I now have Hepatitis C which has destroyed my liver...for the most part. I have cirrhosis and am awaiting placement on the transplant list. My life is full of medical care taking that I really don't want.

This is what cutting can do to you. And I haven't even touched on the issues of infections. Strep A...will kill you or eat away at your flesh until there is not much left of you. There are so many variables that it is impossible to know what your future may bring.

I know you need support in all of this...but you have to be the one to look deeply into yourself in the mirror...holding that razor blade and say: "I don't NEED THIS!" and drop the razor blade...and cry...you have to agree to sit with your feelings...just sit with them. It takes much more strength to do this exercise, than it does to cut...and you need to show yourself how strong you can be.

Unfortunately...our T's cannot rescue us from ourselves,....who can? Really? WHO?


I think this is the message your T is trying to get across to you. She does care very much about you...but you have to care more. No one can love you to health, mental or physical....it always comes back to how are you able to love yourself?

I do care...I'm here...I'm reading....and I continue to "sit" with my feelings. I share them more now but some of them I still hold and sit with. I am afraid...but I am a survivor.

SD

quote:

I feel like my main reason for abstaining is to please my T.

I know this feeling all to well. My T and I both knew quite well that I would not stop cutting until I was ready to stop cutting. Another challenged cropped up and that was that I started wanting to cut to piss him off, to hurt him, to test him.

SI is a tough thing to work on.

There is no doubt that SI helps us and gives us a break from our troubles. The problem is that it's short term relief with no sustaining qualities. In fact, the short term relief costs in the longer term because you might get scars, might not be able to wear short sleeve shirts when it gets hot, might itch. You have stress over talking to your T about it and anyone else you might tell or who might find out.

In the end, it's not worth it. And yes, I still have to tell myself this over and over again :|

MH, I hope I will not offend you with my reply, becuase I may not quite get how delicate matter it is.
I agree with every statement of your T. She is like a mother that is taking away something that you want, but this is not a good thing for you right?. Well, her statement about being an addict to SI. You have to admit that you are defending it and justifying it. Whether drink does more harm then SI, you could argue... A child seeing a drunk parent would be afraid, same as a child seeing parent doing SI. Also... we can have occasional drink, it is for people, however some people make a very destructiove use out of alcohol. Cutting tools, well, you get them in the shop, keep in the kitchen, bathroom whatever to use them. However you should also use them with care, and not cause accidental or deliberate harm to yourself or others. Same with drink. Just trying to defeat your logic, MH.... mean no offence... take care and let us know how are you keeping.

SD, wow. I did not know your background. I am so sorry for all you have suffered and continue to suffer. I never once imagined those kinds of possible consequences. I can see how this issue is personally haunting to you. I hope I have not offended you (or anyone else) with what I have written about where I am at right now. I think it is amazing that you are willing to share your story for my benefit. The good news for me is that my SI has not been nearly so extensive or damaging. I don't know if I would ever get to the place where you have been. I hope not. (BTW, we are residing in the same state, and I don't know why but somehow that makes your words hit closer to home.)

quote:

Originally posted by soulfuldaze:

...drop the razor blade...and cry...you have to agree to sit with your feelings...just sit with them. It takes much more strength to do this exercise, than it does to cut...and you need to show yourself how strong you can be.

Unfortunately...our T's cannot rescue us from ourselves,....who can? Really? WHO?

I think this is the message your T is trying to get across to you. She does care very much about you...but you have to care more. No one can love you to health, mental or physical....it always comes back to how are you able to love yourself?

SD, you must know you have gone straight to the heart of my struggle because this is what I cannot do. I don't want to sit with anything! Why can't someone else love my pain away? Am I really so worthless to the world that I am the only one who can care enough to save me? I don't want to be the only one who loves me! It feels meaningless and empty to be my own rescuer. I don't want it to be the answer! Why does it have to be the answer? Why can't I be Lois Lane and have my superman hero turn back time for me?

Z, I know you are correct thinking I am on shaky ground with my incentive level. I do frequently get annoyed with my T, so what will sustain me when I would rather hurt her than please her? Yes, I can see you have already traveled this road. But I think I have the same problem with my self-motivation. If I decide I want to love myself enough to stop cutting for me , that will only last until I get annoyed with myself and want to self-punish. Even if I can love myself part of the time, right now it seems an impossible task to love myself ALL of the time. If I could do that, I would probably be graduated from therapy.

Amazon, I agree that my T is sort of acting the part of a mom in taking away something that I want, and I am whining and wanting to maybe test her to see how serious she is. I know I have spent part of my posts justifying SI. Maybe SI is addicting, but not all self-injurers harm to the same degree. I am not one who feels zero pain when I do it. I think that helps me stop at a point when someone else might not stop.

quote:

I don't want to sit with anything! Why can't someone else love my pain away? Am I really so worthless to the world that I am the only one who can care enough to save me? I don't want to be the only one who loves me! It feels meaningless and empty to be my own rescuer. I don't want it to be the answer! Why does it have to be the answer? Why can't I be Lois Lane and have my superman hero turn back time for me?

MH,
You may want to borrow the HTML slapper from SG. The problem that you're having is that no matter how much someone else loves you or tries to rescue you it's impossible. Love does not mean a pain free existance, love just provides us with an answer to our pain. I don't believe that the answer is that we have to save ourselves, we definitely get help from our Ts, but unfortunately what they can help us with is to tolerate the pain of our loss, and teach us to transcend it, not take it away. It's the human condition and not even our T, no matter how much they love us, can change that.

I understand your crying out and railing against this truth, 'cause it sucks.

AG

Hi MH, I just wanted to say that I can relate to your desire for someone to rescue you and not suffer in your pain alone!...but, at least you are recognizing what is keeping you stuck! and, for me at least, that is the first step toward change....mlc

AG, I must have missed something. What is the HTML slapper? Is that the emoticon that indicates I need to be slapped? See, I know that, which is why I self-punish already.

I cried out and railed some more at my T today about not wanting to FEEL when the feelings are so crappy. Her answer, if I am interpreting her correctly, was that the more I feel the more desensitized I will become to the pain so that eventually it won't seem so unbearable. I guess I have to build up a pain tolerance? In my mind I imagine needing to build up callouses on my very tender feet so I can walk across hot coals! I told her I don't want the answer to be that I have to do this pain alone. She said No, we would do it together. I'm not sure how, but that's all I have to hold onto.

T would like to see me make a firm commitment to never SI again, no turning back. But she did say today that she wasn't threatening termination (which I was really relieved to hear) but asked how can she do therapy with me if she knows what we discuss will lead to me cutting when I go home? I never really thought of it from that angle before. I guess I don't typically visualize her feeling a compassionate responsibility towards me. I don't want to sabotage our working relationship. But I am still scared to sit and not run. It just doesn't seem like a good thing, like it goes against every natural instinct.

Hi MH,
Sorry, I forget that newer posters might not know about the HTML slapper. It's a device we came up with a while ago that started as something to hit someone with if they were being too hard on themselves and kind of evolved into a general punishment kind of thing. I didn't mean for you to use it on you at all. I was afraid that what I was saying would be difficult to hear and you'd want to hit me for which you would need the slapper.

It's really good that you are crying out against having to do this, because that's how you're feeling and it deserves to be heard.

I believe sitting with the pain DOES go against all your instincts. A big part of why we need an attachment figure when small is to help us learn to handle our emotions and soothe us when we run into things that are too difficult for us to handle it alone. My T describes life as including pain, but love is the answer to pain. That when we're in pain we move towards a stronger, wiser other to help us handle it. So if we didn't have that secure attachment as a child, we ran into a lot of situations in which we didn't have the resources to handle the emotions that were evoked. This is strongly compounded if there was abuse because that's even harder to handle, and if the abuser is the person who is supposed to be helping you, there are even less resources. So when we were in pain we often experienced it as something that would destroy us, because it would have. In order to survive, we learned to stay away from the pain.

Someone telling you it's safe now (which it is) is not going to change your feelings instantaneously. Your T is without doubt asking you to do something that terrifies you and reasonably so based on your experience. Unfortunately letting yourself feel those feelings and experience the pain with your therapist there to help you contain and manage the feelings so you're not overwhelmed will eventually teach you that you can tolerate the pain. As it gets less scary, you'll be able to handle more until eventually you will trust that you can handle feeling ALL your feelings without being overwhelmed.

This can be an incredibly difficult process because the very thing you need to do, feel what terrifies you while moving closer to someone to help you is the VERY THING that caused you to be hurt as a child. I have spent a huge chunk of my therapy going to my sessions terrified. I think that for about a year and a half to two years, every time my T asked how I felt, I said scared.

It's also difficult because it's NOT about cognitive understanding. That's why your T telling you you're safe doesn't do it for you. You have to walk into the fear and have a different experience enough times that your "gut" believes its safe to feel those feelings.

I'm so sorry, I really do understand how difficult and scary this is, but I can tell you that it works and there is another side to the pain and fear. You can heal.

AG