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Sequel to She Loves Me Not - POSITIVE UPDATE :)

mad hattermad hatterMember
Ok I am starting a new thread about the latest developments in my T relationship for all you faithful supporters. But I guess I better first give a warning: I don't really want anyone to read if you're in a really bad spot in your own T relationship, because this might further trigger you and/or drain your reserves, and I don't want that at all.

Also, for my feeble sake, I just want to say that some of you might have strong opinions, perhaps opposing ones, about my T and what you are going to read here. Please respect that I still love my T, and although I'm not sure, I am probably going to go back for another try. And after awhile if it turns out to be the wrong decision, I hope you don't say "I told you so."

I feel vulnerable posting this intimate conversation, but I am interested in your kindly expressed perspective on the following text dialogue I had with T tonight.


MH: hi again. i understand that you dont miss me. im trying not to miss you either but sometimes i still do. i cant handle the disparity in our needs and feelings. seeing you makes it worse, so i dont know what to do except run

T: Its not about missing. i dont have the same dependency needs as you do. i couldnt help you if i did. the goal is to get through them

MH: i feel so ashamed for my "dependency needs." there is something shaming about you not being able to love me when i need you so much. once again it seems i am not good enough. i am not mad or blaming you. its me.

T: I am not even going to respond to that [this comment really upset me]

MH: i am sorry i am no longer able to express my true feelings to you. i am tired of being censored, T. i am not mad, just very very sad that you cannot hear me. if this is the way its going to be then i will not be able to progress with you. i will have to leave.

T: You make so many erroneous assumptions i get tired. you push me away with it. just because you think things doesnt make them true. you get yourself into lots of bad places and for nothing. MH you will have to do what is best for you. if it means leaving then you must. i will miss you.

T: You should have dependency needs and i Shouldnt. its the attachment process

T: If you didnt suffer a little when not with me you Wouldnt make any progress at all. that you suffer just means that you are allowing some attachment and that is good. when you get through it you will miss others but not suffer so much because you will always have a thread of attachment to them. thats where i am at.

T: You dont know me dear. you only know you. i am not you. goodnight i guess

MH: last time we met i asked how come you never said "i love you" and you said something like how could i expect you to after only 1 week of good behavior? then you compared me to an adoptive child whom you said was loved inferiorly to a biological one. and i felt compared to your adopted sister, whom i know you dont even want to speak to she annoys you so much. so how is it projection for me to say you dont love me? it doesnt seem like a leap at all

T: You are not her. quite a leap. being adopted does not make her inferior. she is not inferior. she just not able to be lived with.

T: I think it has only been a week that i havent been the dirt on your feet. you have been pushing me and pushing me and wondering why i dont say i love you. i love all people in a general way but the love you want is specific and what two people have who trust and respect each other have. i want it with you but dont seem able to get it. i get your anger

MH: im sorry you have felt treated like the dirt on my feet. i do not see you that way at all. you have many qualities i want to emulate. thank you for addressing my thoughts and feelings. i will leave you alone now. goodnite.

T: MH. i want it to be different. the anger doesnt belong to me. you dont trust me enough to let me really love you nor to let you love me. you have to believe that i am all those awful so you can stay away from loving me. love has hurt you in the past. our work is to change all this and that we arent at that goal already would be normal i think. that pond is a process and if you leave you will be forever where you at right now. you decide
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scaredtoriskmyselfscaredtoriskmyselfCo-moderator
MH,

The only motive that I have ever had in any response to you regarding your issues with your T is your safety and well being. If things can be worked out with your T and the relationship can move forward then I think that is great. If you give it another try and it doesn't work I will not say "I told you so". I will know and understand that you did everything that you felt you needed to do in order to heal, to save the relationship and to get what you need even if that ends up being closure. Really, say whatever you need to say. I'd love to continue reading about your journey.
yakusokuyakusokuMember
I feel like I could sense her care for you, but maybe (if she were my T), I would want her to be more thoughtful/sensitive about the way I expressed it. The words are not even directed at me and *I* am projecting judgment and frustration. I don't think that's her intention. I think her intention is to correct misunderstandings, but maybe she isn't attuned to how her manner of addressing this is actually reinforcing some of them? You probably are projecting a lot of erroneous judgments onto her, but talking about how you "push" her probably reinforces you not feeling safe like she will be steady. Do you think it would help at all to "accept" that your feelings/thoughts about her might be incorrect and try to explore (either with her or consult T) where those feelings might originate from or be stuck in (the past)?

I don't want to be negative here, though. At the same time, there were a few statements (like missing you) that were very obviously caring toward you...and I hope you were able to receive them and know it is love of a kind, even if it feels inferior.
mad hattermad hatterMember
I guess I better clarify that I was not accusing anyone of having already said "I told you so," and I know everyone who has posted on my threads thus far has only done so lovingly with my best interests at heart. Its okay to have an opinion whether I should stay or leave current T. I am just sensitive about disappointing some of you, but I shouldn't worry. Thank you STRM and JaneDoe for your continuing support.

Thanks for your comments as well, Yaku. My T constantly accuses me of pushing her, and to me its like she's making me out to be this terrible monster of a person, but I don't really see myself as nearly as bad as she makes it sound. It's like she's talking about another person. What am I doing that is so pushy, I wonder, besides some projection? Is a client supposed to be perfect at not projecting? Because she acts like it.

I am asking for honest, cutthroat opinions on this question, because I need help seeing myself the way T sees me: Did my text replies seem way out of line, way "pushy," and I just can't see it? I didn't edit anything or leave anything out.
jonesjonesMember
Dear MH -

I want you to know that without a doubt, while I have had strong opinions on what I perceived going on in your therapy, you have my support and absolute good wishes whatever you do - and the respect that whatever you do will be the best decision for you coming out of your needs and situation at the time. It couldn't be anything else.

I really wanted to let you know directly how concerned I felt, without any sugar-coating, and also to support you in the anger you were feeling that I saw as really justifiable and important. Having said that, I'm sorry if my strong words have hurt you or made it harder to post. I understand that you love your T and I would never say 'I told you so' - you just do what you have to do - we all do.

Take care,
Jones

edit: just saw your further post, MH - I'll give you my "cutthroat opinion" in a while! Smiler
yakusokuyakusokuMember
Everything I saw there was just you expressing your honest feelings. It didn't seem pushy to me. Plus, even if you did push her away, it seems pretty common for clients to test their T's that way. Basically, so what? An example would be where you admit the shame you feel about her not being able to love you, but let her know it's not about her, it's about you. Then she says she won't respond. You specifically state how you're feeling and TELL her that you know it's about something internal, not about her, and then SHE pushes you away by refusing to receive that comment (receive and counter the misinformed feelings, receive and question where you think the source of those feelings is). Basically, she had a lot of other options there, but it seemed like even though you were saying, "Please don't take this personally!" she went ahead and did it anyway. That's just how it "feels" to me as I read it. I would maybe go back to her and say, "I'm very concerned that you feel I'm pushing you away. It's not something I'm trying to do and I don't even find I am conscious of having done it when I try to examine myself. I am attached to you and I want to continue working with you. If I'm pushing you away and hindering our work, I want to be able to 'see' those behaviors for what they are, and get to the bottom of them, connect them to their real source...because I don't WANT to push you away. I want to learn how to be close and feel safe there." I don't know. It would be very hard to make myself that vulnerable, especially since you seem to be opening your feelings so much to her and there is still this sense that she is frustrated with them. She can be frustrated with your actions, but she should be happy with and proud of you for identifying how you feel and trying to work through it with her rather than try to hide feelings that you project she will judge. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here...does any of this resonate or am I just on my own stuff right now?
jonesjonesMember
Dear MH,

I want to agree with the others that I see a lot of care there from your T, and also a real acceptance of your need for her.

I do want to comment honestly on some difficult things that I notice in your exchange. One is that where she says "I am not even going to respond to that" it's really unclear what's going on. Does she mean she won't respond because she is angry and hurt, or because she doesn't want to validate the idea that you are not good enough, or to have you rely on her to tell you that you *are* good enough, which might be another way of validating that you are not? I can see how you would be upset at her withdrawal at that point, and perhaps it's important to look closely there. She says you are pushing her away there - but actually I don't see that, I see you owning your self-judgement.

The "dirt on your feet" thing bothers me. It seems very, very personal.

Aaaand the other thing I want to say, from my perspective, is that I don't believe that "if you leave you will be forever where you at right now." Often we see people here leave one T and make more progress with another T. And there are many paths to take. Maybe this would be so if you left with the intention of turning away from the work of healing and loving, but that is not how it has to be.

Ok, that's all... hope I'm not being too cut-throat here. Again - you have my full support to do what feels right for you. The most important thing is feeling like the decision is yours. Take care, MH.

Jones
L lieseMember
Hi MH,

Wow. A lot has happened since I checked last night. I agree with the others that I hear a lot of caring coming from her. But there are a few things that hurt when she said them. Maybe it's the way they were communicated, via text, without the nonverbals. But it couldn't hurt to show her her comments. It could very well be that you are holding back with her because of some of the way she phrases things, which come across a bit REACTIVE, as if she's no longer impartial, like the one line about her being tired.

I did tell my T that I didn't like him raising his voice at me and he doesn't do it anymore. He talks to me calmly. When we can figure out what bothers us or makes us withdraw from an interaction and then do something to change it, I think that's a good thing. It could be a good thing to go back and say, you know, I feel your caring but what you said here and here, I'm not so sure about. Maybe she's not even aware of how it comes across.

MH, you know I've been in a similar situation as you with my T and I think I probably have similar dependency needs. It has been helpful for me to go back to him when I've been upset and work through things. I think you've done a great job sorting through your feelings. I never had anyone to work things through with. Just being able to go back and do that with someone is very healing for me. It's worth a shot. And you've always got us here if things take a wrong turn. And you know you are strong and can survive.

xoxox HUGS

Good luck tomorrow. Are you going to see her?

Liese
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
It doesn't look to you like, in these texts, you are being pushy. Your T probably isn't referring to this particular string of texts, since I believe you'd said she doesn't answer the ones where she feels like you are pushing and will answer the ones where she feels like you aren't, right? What I'd challenge you to do is ask your T what her perspective is on how you were communicating in that exchange as I don't think she'll say you were pushing - there are clear areas where you are asking for or need reassurance or requesting clarification but I don't read pushy in to it.

I know enough about her responses by now to say with confidence that T did indeed think I was pushing her away in my 2nd text. Her comment about "I am not even going to respond" is typical of what she says when she doesn't like what I have texted. I admit there have been times when I have expressed severe projection very directly. The worst example I can think of is one night about 2 months ago I accused her of hating me, talking smack about me behind my back, and calling me Miss Piggy, which was all in my paranoid imagination. I can see that I got too carried away that time. But most of the time I express myself much the same way that I have in these texts. I might say she doesn't love me, for example, but I am not swearing or shouting it or calling her names or anything disrespectful like that. It's just me telling her what I truly believe. And it seems obvious she has admitted she doesn't really love me (other than the general love she says she has for all people). If she won't say the words, why is it projection for me to believe she doesn't? This is why I get so frustrated. I have this sense that if I express any negative feelings whatsoever that have to do with her, she will shut me down for it.
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
It would be very hard to make myself that vulnerable, especially since you seem to be opening your feelings so much to her and there is still this sense that she is frustrated with them. She can be frustrated with your actions, but she should be happy with and proud of you for identifying how you feel and trying to work through it with her rather than try to hide feelings that you project she will judge.

Yaku, yeah this resonates. Why isn't her reaction one of encouragement and pride that I can be brave enough to say, "this is how I feel"? I am to the point of being scared that anything I say, unless I limit myself to superficial small talk, will be judged inappropriate. I have said as much to her, and she comes back with, (paraphrasing), "MH, you are not telling me what you feel. You are telling me what I feel, and you don't know me."
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
Are you sure you don't push as hard as she thinks you do? Don't get me wrong, I don't know at all whether you are. I just know that I push pretty hard and it took me 7 months to realize it.

No, I am not sure. That is part of my motivation in making myself vulnerable to post this text conversation, because it is possible I just cannot see myself how I really come across. My T has been in practice over 20 years, and she says no one has pushed her for as long a period of time as I have. So even though I do not perceive it that way, it must be true. It kinda stings to think I might be that blind about myself. Obviously, I don't know how to change because I cannot even see the problem.
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
where she says "I am not even going to respond to that" it's really unclear what's going on. Does she mean she won't respond because she is angry and hurt, or because she doesn't want to validate the idea that you are not good enough, or to have you rely on her to tell you that you *are* good enough, which might be another way of validating that you are not? I can see how you would be upset at her withdrawal at that point, and perhaps it's important to look closely there.

Yeah, somehow I've got to better understand where she is coming from. Maybe her purpose is like you said, to not validate me verbally so that I can learn to trust her internally and not rely on all the reassurances. She hasn't said that is her motivation, but I could explore that with her.
quote:
The "dirt on your feet" thing bothers me. It seems very, very personal.

It bothers me too. Not so much because it is personal but because from my POV it simply isn't true! It seems the woman has a very low threshold for what constitutes mistreatment. Of course, I am coming from the background of an abusive upbringing, and she is coming from a background where no one in her household ever slammed a door, not even once. My idea of what constitutes treating her like dirt is apparently much, much worse than her idea.
quote:
I don't believe that "if you leave you will be forever where you at right now." Often we see people here leave one T and make more progress with another T. And there are many paths to take. Maybe this would be so if you left with the intention of turning away from the work of healing and loving, but that is not how it has to be.

This is a good point and thanks for bringing it out. I too have seen this to be true with members on this forum. I am frustrated, though, that I see no better alternatives among my T choices in the rural area which I live. I think I could find someone good if I were willing to drive an hour or more away. But realistically, if I have to drive that far, I'm probably not going to stick with it for long. Part of my problem is that I just don't feel ready to open myself up to a male T. If that wasn't such a hurdle, there would be a few other T's I could try out before leaving this area.

Jones, don't worry, you weren't too cutthroat. Thanks for contributing.
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
I agree with the others that I hear a lot of caring coming from her. But there are a few things that hurt when she said them. Maybe it's the way they were communicated, via text, without the nonverbals. But it couldn't hurt to show her her comments. It could very well be that you are holding back with her because of some of the way she phrases things, which come across a bit REACTIVE, as if she's no longer impartial, like the one line about her being tired.

Yes Liese, like you and JD and Yaku, I too see some caring responses there. I have spent some time whining about the comments which I have bristled at, but I am also grateful she seems to get the dependency needs thing, and that she says she wants things to be different. I have a hard time believing that she would miss me though with as often as she complains about how pushy and angry I am. But there was enough caring in some of her texts to give me hope to keep trying to work it out.

I have to say that from my very first initial visit with current T, I felt an emotional connection (albeit tiny and denied at the time). It was a quiet thought that, "I know this person has the potential to reach deep inside me; the potential to become very meaningful in my life." I did not feel any such spark of deep connection when I went to the consult T. I suppose that is a good thing if I want to avoid transference pain with him.
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
That being said, there were some sentences that made me a bit wary because they came across as pretty personal and no longer professional. Which is hard for sorting out the relationship. As you might know, my T and I are at a similar point, only I haven't told her I'm going for a consult next week.

Frosty, I forgot that I wanted to address this part too. My (((hugs))) to you for going through a similar pain. The sorting is very difficult. I also have not told my current T about the consult T. Although I have my doubts whether this consult T could ever take her place as my regular T, I am just hoping he can help me gain clarity on how to proceed. I wish you the same clarity with your consult, and come tell us about it, k?
quote:
Good luck tomorrow. Are you going to see her?

I am going to see my regular T tomorrow morning. And in the afternoon I will see consult T again. Hopefully my thoughts will be clear and recent enough from the morning session to be useful with consult T, because last time I really didn't delve too far into my issues as I had a hard time articulating them.
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
I could say all day long to my T:
"You think I'm crazy"
"You are treating me different than other people because you are forcing meds on me"
"You think all my progress is because of meds"
"You don't think I can do this, well I can!"

And T ... would just sit there. All of these statements are about her not about me. But she was more than happy to talk about things like:

"You encouraging meds so much makes me feel like you don't think I can do this by myself" (Then she was more than happy to explain because now we're talking about ME not her).

Has she ever tried coaching you in communication like this?

DF, don't worry about posting this. Actually it is helpful and I will tell you why. The answer is yes, that my T has tried to coach me on this exact process before. But I guess I am a VERY SLOW LEARNER. Frowner I will think I "get it" only to be told I am "doing it again." I have asked her to be gentle in her reminders, because I usually don't recognize if I am projecting, and a response like the silent treatment just seems harsh and punishing more than helpful. In fact, when she refuses to answer me, it usually infuriates me more. How is blocking communication supposed to help? Why can't she just have the patience to kindly explain what her feelings truly are if I am being paranoid?

I am happy to read you have successfully gotten better about this projecting tendency. Maybe it gives me hope that it will be possible for me someday too. Thanks for having the insight to share, DF.
blackbirdblackbirdMember
MH- absolutely no judgement, I told you so or anything like that, no matter what happens- everything that happens in therapy is a learning experience, and a growth experience imo, even negative things can push us to where we ultimately need to be- and no matter what you do- it is because there is something that you still need and want to learn from her. I see a lot, *a lot* of passion in your search to find yourself and the truth here, and how could there possibly be anything wrong in that? I think the question you seem, (from my perspective) to be asking is: am I hurting my T with my search to discover the truth of how I relate, what my projections are, what is true about me, about her, and what isn't, etc.? You know the answer to that question is always supposed to be no- that we should be able to throw anything at our T, communicate all of our feelings of being unloved, all of our anger about that- confusing frustration, whatever- and not have to worry about whether or not our question hurts them or will drive them away. If you find the answer is that your therapy question is hurting her- it is because of her own lack as a T, and not because you have done something wrong as her client- that's all I'm trying to say. Clearly you still have more to find out with this T, and that is not wrong, not ever. But it hurts like hell to be where you are.


quote:
My T has been in practice over 20 years, and she says no one has pushed her for as long a period of time as I have.


T's make mistakes like saying this- and she may very well still be the T for you. I like what Liese said, it expresses it very well. That at least you have somebody to work through all of this stuff with- to figure out who you are in relation to who someone else is. It would be nice if your T didn't need you to make her feel good, and didn't place negative judgement on you, but that doesn't mean that you can't do any good work together. It just makes the work more complicated and more difficult, and more painful. But- and I really mean this- this may very well be the way you need to work. Everyone has a different past and different needs and a different lesson to learn, and it may be that some of us a harder road to travel to get where we need to be. I'm finding that for myself, anyway. And that isn't because there is something wrong with us, or something bad about us. Each story and each life is unique path in learning to become who we are meant to be. As long as you are *able* to leave behind any negative message about yourself that you may accidentally pick up alongside the road with her, there shouldn't be a problem. That's really hard to do though.

Take this for what it's worth, to you MH, and not as gospel truth or anything. It's just my own thoughts, and, I literally know nothing, except what I tend to think too much about in my own less-than-ideal therapy situation. And just know that you are a total sweetie, and have done nothing wrong. Your texts didn't seem at all inappropriate, to me. I have pushed my own T just as hard, and much harder than that many, many times.

hugs,

BB
I incognitoMember
(((MH)))

You have received so many useful comments that I want to second including the fact that I don't think you are pushing your T **too** hard. I think that is what clients do push, test, and project onto our T's. Also I think I can hear the caring in some of your T's text messages and in her continuing efforts to communicate with you.

I agree with you that her method of trying to teach you communication techniques by refusing to respond seems punitive and cruel. When you are learning something new there are going to be mistakes and times you don't practise the new skill. I wish she could remind you what you are doing without bringing her feelings into it. Also I find it helpful (and frustrating) when my T tells me that of course I have trust problems because of my life experiences or that people often get angry at something that makes them feel unsafe and so it is not surprising that I'm angry at him. It is kind of the opposite of telling you no one has ever tested her as long. I have no idea if other people have tested longer than I have (and it has been almost 3 years) and I'm glad because then sometimes I can believe that my behaviours are normal and he isn't going to leave me over them.

I want to thank you for sharing your conversation with your T with us because it is helpful to know other people struggle in the same ways. Last week I had a very difficult week with my T and one of the things that helped me is that I record all my sessions and listen to them later. Waiting a couple of days to hear last weeks session really allowed my anger and fear to subside and then I could hear what he was saying from quite a different place. So I've decided to go to my session today and try and discuss things.

Good luck with your regular T and the consult T. I've also consulted with another T in the past and didn't tell my T about for 4 months. He was fine with it and told me he will always be okay with consulting with someone else if I want to.

hugs,
Di
ladygreyladygreyMember
I don't think it matters so much what we think, but it is certainly important to note that your T DOES indeed think you are out of line in your communication with her. Even if there are 20 of us who disagree with her, it doesn't change the uncomfortable dynamic between you and her and at the end of the day, she still believes that you are pushing her buttons.

So that gives you a few options:
1. Continue to communicate with her in the way that you have been, but do so with the knowledge/belief that she is the one who is wrong about this. Risk making her angry and pushing her away.

or
2. Change your communication not because you feel that you are wrong, but because you accept that what you've been doing isn't working with her because of her own misperception of the things you are saying.

If it were me, I would adapt to make her happier with the communication, even if she is in the wrong.

Or I'd find a new therapist who I communicate better with.
L lieseMember
MH,

I've read that TN has told her T what works best for her. I don't think you are wrong at all. You are trying to get help. And, if for some reason, she's stuck on seeing you a certain way and you are not responding to it, what is so wrong with saying, okay, i think this is what you are trying to work on with me but it is actually pushing my buttons. Can we try a different approach? Can you gently point out when you think I'm projecting?

Yes, she has 20 years experience but the longer we do something, the more automatic we do it. She may not actually be looking at her reactions to you. It also really bothers me that she says no one in her 20 years has pushed you like she does.

I guess I'm trying to get a handle on the pushing stuff. Because my T never tells me I've pushed him. And, I'm sure I must have because it's taken me a long time to trust him. I've accused him of trying to get rid of me, of not wanting to work with me, etc. He just politely denies it all. After 3 years of this, I was finally left with, oh my gosh, those feelings must be coming from inside me.

My OldT, by contrast, used to tell me all the time that I was doing this or doing that, that I was being resistant, etc. And, I would think, I'm just being me. I want help. And, if I'm being resistant, it's your job to figure a way around it.

Anyway, MH, the long and the short of it is, regardless of whether you decide to stay with her or not, it seems to me there's been a lot of growth going on this past week and a half. And, that's always a good thing!!!

Good luck tomorrow!!

Liese
S sadlyMember
I am late on this thread but I just wanted to say that it must be a very painful place for you to be in MH. I feel for you.

Unless you have misquoted your T, many of the things she says do not seem appropriate or truly respectful to me. I felt many of my warning bells ringing. When I was going through something similar with my ex C, people were telling me she was not helpful to me and eventually they were telling me that she was damaging to me, but I did not want to leave her, I needed and loved her. Eventually it got much worse, as she just increased my need for love from her by being so distant and refusing to meet me in my need. And yes, in the end it had to end.
My present P is so gentle and kind, he has literally won me over with gentle sweet kindness and nothing I ask him or do or say seems to halt that gentle sweet kindness. Plus he is so UNDERSTANDING of where I am and why I feel the way I do.
when I ask him if he truly cares for me, he smiles at me, acknowledges how painful and exposing it feels for me to even ask and says he cares about me deeply and in the way he says it I know he does. If I asked if he loved me, I think he would say yes. He has grown already to feel deeply for my suffering and courage and his heart feels for me and respects me. That is what we need in a good T. Not only are they skilled but they have heart.

So - much as I know it will pain you to hear, I think I am warning you off this T. But I will never judge you for wanting to stay with her. My god, I clung to my ex C for dear life and she had to terminate me by ripping my fingers off!

Do take care. Sometimes such impasses can be mended and ruptures healed, sometimes they can't.

I hope that whatever happens you find a space where you are met with love and kindness and gentleness and care. And deep understanding.
mad hattermad hatterMember
Thanks for inquiring again, Liese. It helps to be invited to talk. I realize that it is probably the same old boring story to some readers, so I hesitate, but sometimes it really is helpful to sort it out somewhere besides just alone in my head.

I haven't posted about the last few sessions, but I see my regular T again tomorrow and the consult T again on Friday. The last time we met, consult T said that my T probably was showing some defensiveness, and he could see how some of her words/actions seem to indicate her love has to be "earned". But we spent most of the time talking about my chronic problem of projecting, which I told him regular T insists is the real problem affecting our relationship. I told consult T that I still want to make things work out with my regular T. Consult T seemed to be happy with that (maybe he is secretly scared of me turning him into my new "object" if I leave my T, haha) and for now he's willing to just work with me on the goal of overcoming projection, since regular T seems to be unable to help me do this and yet is demanding that I do so. I think its a joke that I should have to hire someone else to do what regular T should be doing in this area, but I don't know what else to do if I want to stick with her. Consult T also suggested that down the road I might want to join his group therapy for addictions. I thought that was interesting because in my opinion I don't have any addictions -- at least not of the obvious type. But he thinks I have an addictive style of personality, I guess, because he said many of the things I would be working on would be the same as the others in the group. (Maybe he is thinking in his mind that my addiction is to my T. Do you think? Roll Eyes )

Well, maybe I will post something tomorrow or Friday after the sessions. We'll see. I'm rather afraid to go because last session my T criticized my choice of topics 3 times within the first 15 minutes, saying she didn't know why, when we only had 1 hour of time together, would I want to waste the time talking about what in her view were meaningless, trivial distractions or things that were old news. I got frustrated enough to call her on it and said, "Why don't you tell me then what the hell you do want me to talk about?!" Of course, she never wants to do that, so how am I supposed to win? I've sent her texts twice since then about my anxiety in coming again, and she seemed apologetic and promised she would do better. But I think I will be tongue-tied and not know what to say and end up saying nothing at all so that I won't get a bad reaction from her.

On the other hand, what I wrote above was only the negative part of the last session, and the truth is it ended on quite an opposite note. At one point I regressed to a dissociative childlike state, but I do know she allowed me to cuddle up against her side for a few minutes, and she stroked my face until my fear calmed down enough to be able to breathe and talk a bit. We talked about the teddy bear she gave me and how it could help me when I was away from her. And I had forgotten this part until just now, but she even gave me a quick peck on the forehead. And I didn't feel like she hated me in that moment. I felt she cared. So can you see how conflicted my emotions are, depending upon which part of the session I think about?
L lieseMember
MH,

Thanks for updating. I have been thinking about you but was waiting for you to post because I wasn't sure you were ready to talk about what's been going on. I'm sure consult T would be happy to work with you. He's probably also happy to help you work things through with your T. I am getting the impression that it might not be uncommon to consult when you are in therapy. When I recently went on three consults with that T, I asked him if it was interfering with my therapy. He said that if it's a once in a while thing, as in hey let me run this by you, that's fine. But if you start seeing two T's simultaneously, that that could cause some problems. Anyway, my point is, that it just happens sometimes in therapy and if consult T can help you bridge a gap there, then so be it.

I'm glad you have consult T to help you through this difficult time. It is interesting the way she reacts to your projections. I wonder if your parents reacted the same way to you when you were little? I used to get caught in these crazy loops with my Dad and sometimes I feel like I get caught in them with my T as well and they can be hard to get out of. Actually, the last loop I was in with him was when I went on my consults so I see some parallels there. It's as if you (me) get stuck in this emotional place and it's hard to see around it.

Funny that you mention that about addiction. Someone else was mentioning that also about relationship addiction and I've seen some stuff related to codependency about it. Apparently there is something called relationship addiction. I do tell my T I'm addicted to him. Supposedly addictions are all about unmet emotional needs.

I do the same thing with my T. The session could be 99% positive and I'll focus on the 1 thing he said that pissed me off. Your mind could just be trained to look at the negatives and it's just something you do automatically without even thinking about it. There have been studies that show that some mothers teach their kids, not purposefully of course, to focus on the negative things in life. And, then my T also just recently told me that depressed women pay more attention to the negative cues in the environment. But then, there is also that thing called splitting, where we can't see that a person actually is good and bad. We can only see them as all good or all bad. I don't know if that's what's at work here or if it's more that you're trained to find the uncaring responses as opposed to the caring ones. ????? Anyway, regardless of what the answer is, the environment has both positive and negative things in it.

Anyway, glad things are okay and you are still hanging in there. Please keep updating as you need to. We are always here as a sounding board.

(((((HUGS)))))

Liese
ButterflyButterflyMember
Hi MH,

Am pleased to hear that you are able to gain an alternative perspective with consult T though I agree it is a shame that your current T isn't able to work on these areas with you. It is interesting that he has suggested you join his addiction group, it may be useful to check with him what he thinks you might gain from this. Do you feel you are addicted to your T? I think Liese is onto something when she says an addictions are about umet emotional needs.

I thinks its a real shame that you are afraid of your session with your T due to her criticism of the content that you are sharing with her. Therapy is about you and it concerns me that she would feel you are wasting her time as you know yourself better than anyone else. Really glad you called her on this, though I have to admit it still troubles me. You shouldn't feel you have to hold back just so you don't receive a bad reaction, therapy is all about feeling safe enough to fully express yourself.

I'm happy you received a cuddle from her Smiler but I also imagine that must be slightly confusing, to feel so unheard one minute and feel so close the next.

Hope both your sessions go well this week and you are able to get what you need from them.

Butterfly
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
Supposedly addictions are all about unmet emotional needs.

Well, if that's true then I probably qualify to attend the meetings. But I'm not keen just yet on anyone telling me to give up my drug of choice! Wink
quote:
Your mind could just be trained to look at the negatives and it's just something you do automatically without even thinking about it.

Yes, this is likely more true than I want to admit. And it is following the pattern my father set, actually, more so than my mother.
quote:
But then, there is also that thing called splitting, where we can't see that a person actually is good and bad. We can only see them as all good or all bad. I don't know if that's what's at work here

I have come to see that I do this all the time with T. I'm not sure how often I do this with people in everyday life, but if its coming out in therapy then I probably do it elsewhere too, right?
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
Originally posted by Butterfly:
I thinks its a real shame that you are afraid of your session with your T due to her criticism of the content that you are sharing with her. Therapy is about you and it concerns me that she would feel you are wasting her time

Yes, Butterfly, I was very nervous today. Didn't know what to talk about that would be pleasing to her, since she doesn't like to direct the conversation much herself. But we discussed my fear, and even though I think T should have kept her mouth shut, I now realize it wasn't that she thought I was wasting her time but that she thought I was wasting my own time. She said she was only concerned, as always, with what was in my best interests. Perhaps if I always believed this was true then I would interpret her statements differently.

My session did go okay today. I noticed that T's voice seemed gentle. I wonder if it usually is and I just don't tend to notice it in the moment? Or maybe she was just trying harder to help me feel safe, like she promised. I'm not sure, so I think I'm going to make it a point to pay attention more to the sound of her voice in every session from now on.
mad hattermad hatterMember
Guess what? I Finally have an upbeat, optimistic post to share!!! I asked for what I needed, and I got it!

I am shocked right now, as I was expecting to be disappointed. I sorta used the door-in-the-face technique, hoping if I bombarded T with a whole bunch of things all at once that she would be more likely to say yes to at least one of them. But she said yes to almost all of it. Eeker The only thing she could have offered more was to insist on giving me free sessions, haha!

Here's how it went down. I texted T this morning, saying how I really want to see her 2x per week (and she has said more than once that it would be better for me if I did) but the truth is I can't afford to without insurance. I told her I couldn't ask or accept a reduced fee because her fees are already reasonable, but neither can I place that high burden on my H, who busts his knuckles everyday at work so I can indulge myself in therapy. I feel selfish and unworthy just going 1x/week.

So...how do I deal with this separation anxiety between sessions if I can't see her as often? I boldly made 3 suggestions:

1-I see her early in the week for my regular session, but then on Thursdays when she sees my son or daughter, I sneak in at the end of their session to say hi, and maybe a hug if I've been good. Wink It would be maybe a 2-minute contact, but in person, and that's better than nothing.

2-Since she doesn't do email, I suggested she allow me to send faxes. I told her a person on this forum has a T who allows faxes anytime (thx, STRM!)

3-I suggested she allow me to record all my sessions so I could listen to her voice while we are separated, and that I thought I'd get a lot more out of the sessions that way too. Besides, I need an excuse to buy an mp3 player! Smiler

She texted back a smiley and said any of those solutions are acceptable to her, and just to try them out and see what works best for me.

If I knew how to do a happy dance at this point, I would! I did tell T she had made my day much brighter, and that I was almost doing cartwheels. Almost. Big Grin Things are looking up for me. Big Grin
mad hattermad hatterMember
Thanks guys for sharing in my joy! I just got back from a session with consult T. It's a really different experience than with regular T. It's not bad, just different. There's no transference or strong attraction so far, and I'm relieved by that. I don't want any more complicated emotions. Also, the consult T gives homework suggestions, which I'm not used to. But its okay. At this point I'm motivated to use his skills to help me stop the negative projection onto my T. I'm looking at it like, "Just give me some quick-fix lessons please," and hoping it is actually possible.

I told consult T about this site and he thought it was interesting. He said he has been meaning to look online for resources he can share with his clients. So I told him the address and he actually wrote it down. Now I am thinking...oh crap, maybe I need to erase posts and hide! My regular T is sorta uncomfortable with computers and stays away from the internet, so I don't have to worry about it with her.
jonesjonesMember
Congratulations MH!! Way to go asking for stuff that you need, that is really brilliant. And I love that she was so receptive about your requests. You are doing wonderful work! It will be a lot easier to deal with the painful feelings that come up if you can stay connected to her through the week.

Love,
Jones
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