(((((MH)))))

I'm sorry. I can understand how this would be upsetting on so many levels.

Based on how much your T freaked out about you searching for her on the internet, it seems that she has a need for very strict boundaries in her therapy with clients. I think she was particularly cold and clinical in her response to you, but I think it was perhaps intentional to maintain the boundaries she feels you are testing.

I cannot help but wonder, however, that if you go to a new T, you might run into some of the same problems? Or, if you went to a T with loose boundaries, would it ultimately harm you? Perhaps your T has your best interest at heart.

I really feel for you in this. When I was reading it, I thought if that had been said to me I would have felt kicked in the stomach.

So - I shall probably say all the wrong things therapy speaking but human being speaking, I shall be saying what I think are all the right things.

Therapists HAVE to love us, if they do not - we can sense it. I can certainly sense it. I am not prepared to be pretended to or treated at arm's length as client number 498.

I am a person and I heal by being met by another person heart to heart. That is why I like the book 'The General Theory of Love" so much, because it states that Love is what makes therapy work. Yes, we are not their children, we are not their family - we only see them once or if lucky twice a week - but we are human beings in considerable confusion and pain and what we as humans do to other humans in pain is love them and care for them and be there for them and listen to them and laugh with them and create a real bond, a real relationship where we feel valued back into our own goodness again. Simple. Remember therapy is only about 100 years old. We humans have been taking care of each other for much longer, without rules and professional bodies.

My therapists know that this is how I think and if they are going to 'pretend' at me, well, I don't work with them. I won't do that disservice to myself. It means that I usually end up working with exceptionally heart open therapists and that helps me.

I hated her analogy about adopted versus biological children - that is AWFUL. I don't even agree with it and if it was me I would be storming back in there telling her not to dump her stuff about her sibling rivalries on me thank you!

I feel so strongly on reading your post that maybe I should pause and breathe here and not just write in the reactive mode.

but I would advocate maintaining your self dignity and self respect and not suffering less than love in the therapeutic relationship and if she cannot love you, that is her loss and move on to one who can. You deserve to be loved and some people cannot love easily and some have issues around it.

My psychologist, and my colleague and friend who is one of the most well known and well read psychiatrists in Britain - both say that fundamentally it is about being loved .....

All you need is love, da da da da daaa - as the song goes

quote:

Based on how much your T freaked out about you searching for her on the internet, it seems that she has a need for very strict boundaries in her therapy with clients. I think she was particularly cold and clinical in her response to you, but I think it was perhaps intentional to maintain the boundaries she feels you are testing.

I think Lady Grey is on point here. Imagine if a person revealed that they had been stalking you online, and then shortly after revealed they had intense feelings of love and attachment for you. Even if you cared very deeply about that person, it would be your responsibility as a professional to set firm boundaries with them. I'm not saying someone shouldn't love their client - but it is their responsibility to take issues of attachment seriously.

quote:

My therapists know that this is how I think and if they are going to 'pretend' at me, well, I don't work with them.

I think pretending would be the most unethical act of all. Personally I would rather have a T that openly says they don't love me than one who lies!

I also think if you went to a new T, even one who did love you and openly declared it, you would probably run into the same issues with attachment and boundaries.

((((((MH)))))) That would make me feel awful too.

I am glad you told her what you wanted and what is in your heart, and I wish she would of handled it much more gently and with much more reasurance, while keeping her boundaries.

My T and I were talking about my parents, and limitations at my last session. She started talking about how everyone has limits to what they can and can't do. My parents did the best they knew how, and it wasn't enough. I needed more. Now, I'm an adult who still wants to be loved. We all do. My T talked a little about how she can't ever be replacement for parents that can't love me like I need, but I can learn how to manage that pain and feel loved now as an adult. It hurt just to hearing that my T can't replace the love that was missing from my parents - and I wasn't even asking her too - but of course, deep down, I do long for it. I think it is normal and natural to want your T to love you. We talk to them about deep stuff. They treat us like our parents couldn't, and we were created to be loved and to love.

In therapy, it is tricky when it comes to that big L word though. Most Ts back off from it. I have heard of Ts here and in articles online who use "unconditional positive regard" instead of love, just to avoid all the possible connotations of love that could be problematic in a therapy relationship.

It's normal to want unconditional acceptance and love. I need my Ts to tell me when I have screwed up, and help me change, and not reject me and the relationship. I think I need it a lot because I have been missing it a lot. The way your T talked about it, gosh, it would feel like the relationship is conditional. In reality, our relationships with our Ts are conditional to some extent - but I am troubled by how much your T is. Maybe you made a mistake (don't we all?) but she also reacted with a lot of her stuff, and reacted in a really overboard way. Her not being as reassuring as you like is partly her managing her stuff. T's have boundaries and limits and don't say certain things not just to help us with our stuff, but so that they don't go places they can't handle either. (that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with us, it's just them and what they need to do to help us.)

I have my own "stuff" around my T saying she loved me... I come from a biased perspective... My old T said she loved me, more than once. She did love me (in a motherly way). She cared about me too much. Her feelings for me, her regard for me and my wellbeing, killed her ability to hold the relationship better. She became controlling, and it all ended badly. She admitted at the end that she was having a hard time managing her countertranferance feelings of (maternal) love for me. hmm... maybe it wasn't so much that she loved me. Or maybe she didn't know how to love me like I needed. Or didn't know how to manage how much she cared about me without running me over...

It feels like your T has gone a bit in the other direction, being very clinical and distant.

I don't know about the love testing and adopted kids... that is a weird way of talking about adopted kids to begin with! (And love testing? huh?) Attachment can be difficult for adopted kids (although not always!) and, this is key, it can be repaired. They are not defined by their adoptive status. My sis in law is adopted, and her adoptive family was pretty cruel to her. As an adult, she has done a lot fo work in therapy and is one of the healthiest people I know. She had fears of abandonment, but she talks of them is aware, and manages it. Heck, better than I - with living birth parents who reject me in simillar ways to her adpotive parents. We connect in our simillar "black sheep" status in our families, but my brother married a great girl and he provides consistency and compassion and reassurance when she needs it in a really neat way. She has done work in therapy to heal and is continuing to heal - through corrective relationships. So am I.

We can have that corrective emotional experience and learn how to attach in new ways. We can get those needs met now that were not met as kids. It will never be the same as if they were met as kids, she is right about things in that way. For me, there will always be some needs I feel that my T can't meet, and I think that is true for a lot of people.

My current T has never said she loves me, but I'm pretty sure she does. I'm even more sure of it than the T who said it. (go fig. I dunno what that is the case.) My current T also keeps her boundaries well. She says what she can and can't do - and she is unconditional about it. They are her boundaries, and in a steady way. She doesn't change them or her opinion of me to motivate me to change or out of frustration or out of just being reactive to me or something I have done. She meets my needs within her boudaries and my own boundaries too) even when I screw up - she still keeps them and still cares deeply about me. She makes it clear that it's not about me as a person or how she feels about me, but about the work we need to do together.

The boundaries your T has shouldn't be about how she is feeling about you, but to give the right fences and space and limits for the work you need to do with her. It kind of feels like it is. And again, I really think she overreacted about you googling her... that is normal, common, and something Ts need to be aware that clients will likely do... you didn't make a mistake there and even if you have, it's not deserving of this harshness.

I would have felt awful hearing what you have. Just a week ago, I felt like my T was indifferent about something and just feeling like my T had a moment of indifference about something I needed, led me to not wanting to go back. Hearing my T say what you have, it would be hard for me to go back too.

*Some* of what your T are things that are true and would likely be true with any T, and some of what your T said seems to be her stuff. Like you even mentioned, she has weird feelings for an adopted sister and someone shouldn't be defined by if they are adopted or not. They can still be cared about unconditionally. (grr. she shouldn't bring her sibling stuff into your relationship with her. )

You shouldn't have to "win" her care or love or acceptance. Unconditional positive regard is not about saying everything we do is ok and nothing we do can damage the relationship. It is about how are T's feel about who we are as people, while helping us do things like not "push" people away.

If your T feels like you have been pushing her away, if you have been pushing her away, of course that would affect the relationship, but it shouldn't affect her acceptance of you and no matter what, regardless of anything this T says, you are an amazing person worth deep love and care and compassion and acceptance as a person. Your T might be trying, albeit it in a cold feeling way right now, to help you learn how to be close to her in a healthy way. I'm terrible at doing that myself. When I get close to my own T, I tend to push her away or start to... do the opposite of push her away but not in healthy ways (I don't know the right words to explain it)... and my T tells me when I am acting in a way that doesn't help, and it hurts to hear that, and then she tells me what I can do.

Maybe you need to talk to your T about how to not push her away and have a healthier relationship with her and keep working on that... and of course our actions have an impact, but ugh, but you should never feel like you have to win her acceptance and care or "earn" for her to feel care for you. Something just seems a little amiss how she is handling this, and like she is speaking from some stuff that is her own that has come up in her relationship with you.

It's all gotta hurt no matter what the cause is.

I don't think that means you have to abandon therapy. Maybe her stuff is just stirred up too much right now to fully provide what you need as a T. It's not your fault, she shoudl have handled this better. You are there to be vulnerable and these feelings of wanting love and unconditional acceptance from a T are normal and come up often. It can be a place of great healing, even when our Ts can't provide that deep love you and I want. It's hard though, even when it does work well and is healing. For me, it takes time and a lot of gentleness.

Your T does care about you, although the way she has talked about it would make it hard for me to take in too.

There is NO reason for you to feel ashamed that you love your T! I totally understand why you feel ashamed, unreturned love is very hard to handle in life in all kinds of settings. But you are not doing anything wrong by having those feelings towards your T. That is normal and ok and sweet and kind. I wish your T could have looked bpast her reaction to your stuff and have acknowledged that yeah, it's ok to love her because it's a sign she is meeting some need for care and concern that is very ok to have. I wish she would have much more gently explained that she can't give it back fully in the way you want, but she does care, very much. That is clear. She is hanging in with you even when her stuff was stirred up. My T I have now had to take a break from treatment with me because her stuff was stirred up too much and she couldn't manage. She took a break to protect me and her.

It makes sense to be hurt that your T can't return how you feel towards her. Her not being able to do that is part of just the nature of therapy, and partly her and her own stuff, and none of it changes that you are loveable. You are someone people can love.

Maybe you need a break, maybe you need to find a different T, maybe you need to stick this out and see how it goes with this T and talking about this more... No matter what, I do hope you can hold on to fact that you are cared about and that you are lovable. Very much.

You are working so hard at this. I'm so sorry this happened, please hang in there. My thoughts are very jumbled up today. Please disregard anything that isn't helpful. You deserve great love and compassion and care - dutiful or not. Even if you don't continue on the journey with this T, I fully believe you will reach the destination of healing that you are seeking.

many hugs,
~jane

(((((MH))))) I am sorry that your T reacted in this way. I don’t think it is delusional to want to be loved and I also don’t believe its about not being mature, it is a natural feeling of wanting to be loved by someone who means a lot to you. MH, love should be offered unconditionally regardless of how you may have behaved, it makes me really sad to read this.

quote:

If your T feels like you have been pushing her away, if you have been pushing her away, of course that would affect the relationship, but it shouldn't affect her acceptance of you.

I think Jane said this really well. A T should be offering unconditional positive regard and acceptance of a client and it doesn’t sound to me like your T is offering you that.
What she has said about the difference in love for a biological vs. an adopted child sounds very much like it is based on a personal opinion which she is bringing into the room and I am surprised she would compare you to the adopted child after making it clear she feels so differently. It's ok to be a love tester, I think many of us are especially if we haven’t received all we should have in the past, we would want to make sure it was genuine.

This says a lot about your T MH, all you have done is express the need to be loved, which is perfectly acceptable. I hope you can go back and work through this with your T but I also wonder if it would be useful to think about another T, though I know you have a very strong attachment to this one, so you may not appreciate that suggestion but I so hope you can somehow receive the love and acceptance that you deserve.

Butterfly

((((MH)))))

Don't have much to add that the others haven't already said. Just wanted to let you know that it was so brave of you to go in there and reveal how you feel to her, much braver than I would ever be.

To love and want to be loved back. Just so basic.

I'm so sorry she said what she did, therapeutic or not. I'm sure it hurt.

BTW, my brother and sister were both adopted and I am the only natural child. Guess who my mother loved most? My brother. In her view, I got it all, I got my father's wonderful genes .. so I didn't need anything more. They needed more love because they were abandoned, so to speak. Go figure.


(((HUGS))))

Liese

Everyone, thanks for replying. I am amazed at the supportive responses thus far. Can I just say that my eyes are swollen from crying and then getting only a few hours of sleep. And of course I didn't get a lick of homework done. I am rushing off to classes now and have a full schedule today, along with a birthday celebration tonight in the family, so it may take me a bit longer to reply. But I am not in a good spot and will be back here I'm sure. And just quickly, yes I am so bothered by her take on adoption and glad I'm not the only one that thinks surely its not that way for every adopted child. Later...

((((MH)))) I'm sorry to hear that your T made such a connection- I think it was inappropriate. You must have felt compared, just as any wise child would have. I think she is in need of supervision, probably, clearly she is bringing too much of her own stuff into the room. I kind of get the sense that she is a good T but needs to check in with someone and get some support for herself so that she can better help you. But- I could be very wrong on that score, it's just a feeling- not much to go on concretely with feelings, and not being in the room.
I will share- this is only what I think from reading this board- you understand. You do not seem to me like You need a lot of intellectual comparisons and explanations from her of why she acts the way she does- rather, maybe You need her to be present to you, completely non-defensive, and open to all of your feelings, sufferings, and needs, especially the ones that relate directly to her person- even, maybe *especially,* the ones that she cannot possibly meet. There should be a certain sadness and resignation in her that she can't meet every need, but she should understand why you need her to love you and how much suffering you are in when she isn't at times. Yet, she should not allow your needs and anguish to interfere with her own sense of herself as a good, solid person, otherwise, you will certainly falter. You should be able to pour out all of your anguish to her, and receive her acceptance and sadness about your anguish- this agony you *do not deserve.* And she needs to be able to do all of this without taking it on herself in a way that makes you responsible for her feeling ok about herself. All of this is what a really good T does- and yes, although at times it feels awful to us- it is called love. Good boundaries often equal love, to my way of thinking. I pray she will be able to provide for you very soon, at least her tender compassion for your needs and your suffering, *even* and *especially* if she can't tend to all of them- without at least this, you may languish, and progress will be very difficult.

Big hugs- I'm so very sorry you are suffering so much

Blackbird

(((MH)))

Ouch. That must have really hurt to hear your T say those things. It is not wrong to have the need to be loved and to even feel those feelings toward your T. It is also not wrong for her to maintain a boundary and not say it back to you, but the manner in which she went about it was very painful and IMO she brought her stuff into the room and it was not for your benefit. I know that many T's (mine included) show caring for their clients, but do not tell clients that they love them and I understand why they don't. There are ways to handle that and then there is what your T did and I think she was way off the mark in dealing with your feelings toward her and this is not the first time. I would feel like retreating in your situation as well. I'm sorry that the relationship with T continues to be so hard.

(((hugs)))

((((((MH))))))

I don't have much to add to what the others have so eloquently expressed, but I was hurt for you by her adoption comparison as well. That makes little or no sense and is so obviously an insensitive comment to make. I'm new with my T and just recently started admitting attachment stuff, but despite both of us acknowledging that no one will ever be able to give me what I missed out on (being unconditionally loved, cared for, made safe as a kid), he ALWAYS makes me feel unconditionally accepted. He encourages me to take my hurt and deficient feelings to God (which sometimes hurts more), but he always makes sure to validate how I'm feeling, to let me know he is genuinely sorry I am hurting and that he WISHES he could make it better. And, that's what I think you are needing. It's fine that she keeps strong boundaries and admits that she can never provide what you are asking for, due to the nature of therapy and just the fact that you're not a child anymore and that loss can't be just magically erased. However, I bet if she had expressed, "MH, I truly wish I could do that for you, care for you in a way that makes that hurt never exist," you would have felt "held" there.

-Yaku

ooooooh MH!!!
How painful it must feel. I have to say I don't really understand your T's reaction to you. It seems that she is trying to justify her inadequate-at-best-love for you by suggesting that your behavior has prevented her from having real positive feelings for you??? I really feel like that is a powerful flashing message that says she doesn't have a very good hold of her own emotional boundaries and is trying to put that on you. Her issues are hers and you have done nothing wrong - unless seeking therapy and trying to work through your stuff is somehow wrong. It is hard work. Of course you have tested her and tried to push her away. That is what people with attachment injury do!!! Seems very fundamental even to me. And, the adoption analogy!!! Wow!! My mouth actually fell open!! I have no words!!

I can only imagine the pain you are in MH. I am so sorry and I hope my candid post doesn't make it worse. I am really angry for you because you deserve to feel loved in therapy and while I don't really KNOW you in a non-cyber way, I can see from your posts that you are a thoughtful, bright, interesting person and it makes me angry to think you have to deal with feeling rejected in therapy - the place you go to feel safe.

I'm so sorry for the pain you are feeling... Will be thinking of you and sending positive energy!!
seablue

MH,

I don't want to say here that she's not the right therapist for you. Maybe you should at least try to tell her how bad it made you feel. Can you place an emergency phone call? Listen, it's just my opinion here. But I do that identity merger thing too, that you mentioned. That your T mentioned that your identity was merged with her. I'm thinking and I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that they provoke anger in order to hasten the separation process. Don't give up on this yet. What about calling her on how horribly she treated you????

Actually, I mentioned anger and separation to the pschoanalytic T I just consulted with and he just smiled.

((((((MH))))))))

I would not have expected her to say "I love you" back to you, I actually would have found it problematic. But I would expect her to be compassionate and understanding and accepting of those feelings from you. Frankly, I don't CARE how she's feeling or what it was like for her. When I read "not sufficient to win her love" I almost came out of my seat. In that moment, I was glad that I didn't know where to find her. I really think that therapy should be a place that you don't have to earn. Wasn't doing that with our parents what f---ed up us so badly in the first place? How are we to learn that all of us is acceptable if it isn't to our therapist?

I really do want to make clear that she needed to maintain boundaries around this issue BUT she didn't!! She talked about her feelings about how you had been behaving! Honestly, what I thought was "so go get your own damn therapist and talk to them about it, not to your client."

I told my therapist that I loved him, knowing he would not say it back. And I want you to know that I understand how hard it is to say that to someone and not hear it back. But his reaction was to tell me that he understood how in this kind of intimate, honest relationship those kinds of feelings could occur, that he was not offended at all, either professionally or personally and he was very glad that I felt safe enough to express that feeling.

Much later in our relationship, I made a very strong statement about how much and deeply I loved him. I remember going back in the next session and apologizing, that i felt like I had gone too far and crossed a boundary. And his response was to tell me that I had done nothing wrong, it was how I was feeling and it was always the right thing to do to express my feelings in his office.

When I expressed my deep, intense longings for something outside of the boundaries of therapy, he was always able to clearly hold that line but he also made it totally clear that there was nothing wrong with me wanting that, and that it was totally understandable that I did long for that considering the deprivations of my childhood.

So yeah technically, she held the line the way she should and telling you it wouldn't be enough anyway was true but damn did she have to use a 2 X 4 to convey her point? Yes, I'm sure it's been difficult for to be pushed away by your for this long time, but if she doesn't like experiencing that, go do something else for a living.

And last but not least, I really think that whole thing about adoption was definitely counter-transference on her part. I have a nephew who is adopted and we have trouble remembering it. He has always been and will always be, nothing more than a member of our family. His parents had been told they couldn't have children and put themselves on an adoption list. He came home from the hospital with them and three months later my SIL found out she was pregnant. So his little sister was born three days before his first birthday. There was NEVER an iota of difference between them. He knows about the adoption and is very grateful to his birth mother that she loved him enough to give him up to a good family, but his parents are the ones who loved him and raised him and were there for him every step of the way. He has a very close relationship with both his parents but especially with his father. It's always wonderful to see them together. So I think your T is projecting her own sibling rivalry into her perception of adoption.

Maybe it is true for some adopted children and for some adopted parents, but I don't believe it's always true or should be treated as a norm.

AG

I can't help but wonder what your T would say to a client who is adopted and says to your T, "I sometimes feel like my parents didn't love me as much as their biological children". Would she say, "Yes, you are probably right because parents can't love adopted children as much as their biological children. Its just not the same".

Seriously, how f'd up is that?!

well said LG!

I'm back and finally have a moment to respond.

Springreen, you were the first to comment so I will reply to you first. I appreciate you saying I don't sound immature, even though I know I am. But its ok. I trust that the people here won't berate me for it.

As for the effects of "bad behavior" I am totally confused about that with my T. One minute she will insist she has "unconditional positive regard" for me, while the next she is talking about how tired she is of my testing behavior and that one of these days she will have had enough. Maybe somehow those two statements are compatible, but it doesn't feel that way to me.

quote:

It would be unethical for the T to play the role of the friend/parent, and I think that's what you're looking for.

You're right that I look for her to be my mother. I know that and have admitted it in the past. T says a therapist must accept a re-parenting role to a limited degree in attachment therapy, and I know there are other T's who would agree. Its the limited part I struggle with. Frankly, I do not fully cognitively understand -even with my left brain- why some of the limits are supposedly necessary. For example, I can see that I can't move in with her, but I can't see why it is so harmful for her to say "I love you" back, unless it was a lie. Why does "I love you" back have to mean she is suddenly going to make my therapy be about her needs? I absolutely need to be loved by her. Why the big fuss over not saying the words? Pride? Isn't it just like not being able to say "I'm sorry" when they are wrong?

quote:

Personally I would rather have a T that openly says they don't love me than one who lies!

This is a good point. As much as it hurts that I am unloveable to her, it is even worse for a client to discover the fact after having been told otherwise.

quote:

One minute she will insist she has "unconditional positive regard" for me, while the next she is talking about how tired she is of my testing behavior and that one of these days she will have had enough.

Hrm...that definitely does not seem right to me. I've heard of Ts identifying how that sort of thing might be an obstacle to making progress, but to say you're "tired" and threaten that you will someday have "had enough" is just...wrong, IMHO. Something's off there. She's definitely bringing her own stuff in.

quote:

Originally posted by LadyGrey:
I think she was particularly cold and clinical in her response to you, but I think it was perhaps intentional to maintain the boundaries she feels you are testing.

LG, I have also wondered if it was an intentionally calculated response, because just the session prior to this one, T said she would not allow me to become dependent in a way that crippled me. Well, just two days ago I texted her saying I wanted to stay in bed clutching the teddy bear she gave me and not get up because the day that lay before me was filled with too many unpleasant tasks. And I asked her if my attachment was too much, and now would she perform some sort of psychological surgery to separate me? I told her I loved her, and asked her to please not hurt me with that love because now I was so much more vulnerable. She replied NOT with the words "I love you too," but wrote she would never want to hurt me. And basically told me to get up and make it a good day for myself. So yes, now I wonder if she was alarmed and trying to push me away.

quote:

Originally posted by Sadly:
Therapists HAVE to love us, if they do not - we can sense it. I can certainly sense it. I am not prepared to be pretended to or treated at arm's length as client number 498.

I am a person and I heal by being met by another person heart to heart. That is why I like the book 'The General Theory of Love" so much, because it states that Love is what makes therapy work.

Sadly, I agree. Thank you for understanding and empathizing on a human level. I used to think my T shared this philosophy, that even if she didn't love me to the depths of the ocean, she still had some love. But when I point blank asked her why she didn't ever say "I love you" back, it was (paraphrasing for lack of a perfect memory), "How can you expect that when, for the most part, you've only been kind and loving to me for the past week?" I think she was exaggerating in implying I had been so completely awful. I've never called her names nor used crude, offensive language nor ever told her I hated her. All I've ever done -- and yes, I've done it a lot -- is accuse her of thoughts or behavior against me based upon my fears and projected anger. Basically, I've been paranoid and distrustful apparently in an insulting way. I can see how I myself would not react with love towards someone who constantly accused me of mean intentions. But for crying out loud, she's the T who is being paid because she's supposed to understand these things and not take it personally like I would do.

quote:

I hated her analogy about adopted versus biological children - that is AWFUL. I don't even agree with it and if it was me I would be storming back in there telling her not to dump her stuff about her sibling rivalries on me thank you!

Well, I don't know if I am going back. At the moment I don't want to go back, but I know that with time I may grow weak. If I do return, I may just say such a thing to her. But I doubt it will change anything.

quote:

I feel so strongly on reading your post that maybe I should pause and breathe here and not just write in the reactive mode.

I'm sorry. I should have put a trigger warning at the beginning. I will add one.

quote:

Why does "I love you" back have to mean she is suddenly going to make my therapy be about her needs? I absolutely need to be loved by her. Why the big fuss over not saying the words? Pride? Isn't it just like not being able to say "I'm sorry" when they are wrong?

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "I love you" to a client if the T truly means it. But in this case, since she doesn't love you, I think it is better she is honest about it (as cold and clinical as it may have sounded) rather than pretend. To continue your analogy, it would be like saying "I'm sorry" when you don't mean it - that to me is worse than no apology at all.

quote:

Well, I don't know if I am going back. At the moment I don't want to go back, but I know that with time I may grow weak. If I do return, I may just say such a thing to her. But I doubt it will change anything.

What was your relationship like before this? Were you making progress? Do you think you can get past this? I think these are some questions you should consider (I'm not trying to say you should necessarily answer them here since it could be private).

I hope this works out for you - keep us posted.

quote:

Originally posted by janedoe:
My T talked a little about how she can't ever be replacement for parents that can't love me like I need, but I can learn how to manage that pain and feel loved now as an adult. It hurt just to hearing that my T can't replace the love that was missing from my parents ....we were created to be loved and to love.

ouch ouch ouch don't want to hear it, JD! lalalalalalalala, not listening! Seriously, how can anyone accept that? I mean, are you absolutely sure? that's just too much, too harsh, too mature...

quote:

The way your T talked about it, gosh, it would feel like the relationship is conditional.

Yeah, the thing is that if I called her on it, I'm pretty sure she would deny it.

quote:

My old T said she loved me, more than once. She did love me (in a motherly way). She cared about me too much. Her feelings for me, her regard for me and my wellbeing, killed her ability to hold the relationship better. She became controlling, and it all ended badly. She admitted at the end that she was having a hard time managing her countertranferance feelings of (maternal) love for me.

I am sorry, J.D. I'm sure I must not know what I am really wishing for. The controlling part definitely sounds bad. I guess I keep trying to reassure myself that there would be no negative consequences, and I'm probably wrong. I did ask T how she relates to her own grown children, trying to understand how that might be harmful to me. But T claims she never expects anything of her own adult kids and doesn't impose upon them. She loves them but does not control them. So I tell myself that if she can mother her own children and never make it about her own needs, why can't it work that way for me as well? But I wonder if I were able to ask her kids about it, if their perspective of her as their mother would match her self-assessment.

Thank you for sharing yours and your sister in law's experience with adoption and attachment. I would have to agree that no one should be defined by their adoptive status. If we who are not adopted can heal from attachment trauma, why cannot the adopted also heal from it, if it is indeed there?

JD, I want to respond further but I am being interrupted and once again will have to come back later to continue. Thanks much for your post.

Hey MH,

I would be curious to know your T's response if you asked her if she has ever told a client that she loves them. Could just be her policy not to.

MH,

I know that feeling of just needing to be loved. I know it well. Maybe she wasn't alarmed by your feelings because I have expressed very similar things to my T for the past 4 months and he never seems alarmed. He doesn't seem worried in the least. Last session I asked him, am I just an empty bucket that will never be filled up? I really thought he was going to say yes, I'm afraid so. But he didn't say that. He told me he didn't see it that way. That I have so many strengths. We didn't get into the strengths and how that'll help me fill up my bucket??? I know all T's are different. But I just don't know why she would be alarmed by your attachment? She only said she didn't want you to become dependent in a way that crippled you.

I'm thinking she was trying to piss you off on purpose, especially after that text you sent. Try going back and yelling at her and see what happens. You do have every right to be pissed off.

Back again. Sorry this is taking me so long to respond.

quote:

Originally posted by janedoe:
We can have that corrective emotional experience and learn how to attach in new ways. We can get those needs met now that were not met as kids. It will never be the same as if they were met as kids, she is right about things in that way.

This is something I've been agonizing over all morning. If I have been looking for my T to fix things by being the perfect substitute parent, and she can't, then is there anything else I really want from her? At the moment I am having a hard time feeling like anything else matters. I don't want just good advice from her. I wanted a replacement relationship. What she's offering me is something less than that. Why should I feel like staying? Isn't it just salt in a wound?

I am glad for you that you feel loved by your current T and satisfied with the way she keeps her boundaries. I especially like that you still feel deeply cared about, even when you screw up. I don't quite feel so assured about that. What I think is that my T tries to professionally care, but is personally quite annoyed with me. When that annoyance creeps through, then she tries to deny it and claims I am projecting.

quote:

And again, I really think she overreacted about you googling her... that is normal, common, and something Ts need to be aware that clients will likely do... you didn't make a mistake there and even if you have, it's not deserving of this harshness.

Thank you for your support on this issue. Even though I have made an agreement not to google her so that it would not be a conflict in the future, I am still smarting inside from her reaction. She would say she was not trying to shame me, but I don't know how to take it any other way.

quote:

Your T might be trying, albeit it in a cold feeling way right now, to help you learn how to be close to her in a healthy way.

This is hard for me to talk about because I have such a conflict inside about what you just wrote. Part of me thinks you are very perceptive; another part is defensive. I definitely know that my T would agree with you because she keeps saying over and over and over how I need to learn to move closer and express my fears in healthier ways. I guess I just feel that some of the things she says are actually making it harder for me to do that. And besides, why would I want to move closer to someone who cannot love me? I don't want closeness without love.

quote:

Something just seems a little amiss how she is handling this, and like she is speaking from some stuff that is her own that has come up in her relationship with you.

Yes, I fear that I must remind her of people or situations in her personal life and she is having trouble separating that from how she views me.

quote:

There is NO reason for you to feel ashamed that you love your T! I totally understand why you feel ashamed, unreturned love is very hard to handle in life in all kinds of settings. But you are not doing anything wrong by having those feelings towards your T. That is normal and ok and sweet and kind.

Oh, I wish I knew how to NOT feel shame. My T always says I need to let go of shame. She claims she NEVER feels shame. But I can't help it. It stirs up the exact same feelings that a child would have if he felt his own mommy and daddy didn't love him. Of course the child is going to internalize the lack of love as meaning that he is BAD, that something is WRONG with him, that he is UNdeserving or UNworthy of love. A child is not going to feel secure and accepting of themselves in the absence of that love. And that is how I feel. Why else would my T not love me? It is not that there is something wrong with my T, so it has to be with me.

quote:

She is hanging in with you even when her stuff was stirred up. My T I have now had to take a break from treatment with me because her stuff was stirred up too much and she couldn't manage. She took a break to protect me and her.

JD, I didn't know that. I guess I haven't been following the forum closely enough because you probably would have posted about this, right? Is this a current thing, or was the break long ago? How long is/was the break? How did you manage in between? What did your T do in the interim to improve her capabilities? I don't think my T would admit it if she needed a break, but I could be wrong. If I want to continue with her, maybe I should suggest it to her. I wonder how that would go over. I am the one who probably needs a break from therapy until I can figure out how to accept its limitations and decide if there is still value in it.

quote:

No matter what, I do hope you can hold on to fact that you are cared about and that you are lovable. Very much.

JD, thank you for your kindness. I wish I could internalize it. But all I see right now is that the parents who birthed and raised me could not give me the love I needed, and now the one person who knows the most about me cannot love me either. That seems to invalidate the love from anyone else who knows me less.

quote:

My thoughts are very jumbled up today. Please disregard anything that isn't helpful.

Please don't apologize. You wrote me a very kind and thoughtful post with plenty to think about. Thank you for taking the time to help me.

quote:

Originally posted by Butterfly:
MH, love should be offered unconditionally regardless of how you may have behaved, it makes me really sad to read this.

quote:

If your T feels like you have been pushing her away, if you have been pushing her away, of course that would affect the relationship, but it shouldn't affect her acceptance of you.

I think Jane said this really well. A T should be offering unconditional positive regard and acceptance of a client and it doesn’t sound to me like your T is offering you that.

Hi Butterfly, thank you for your comments. I have to say I am way confused about whether my T accepts me or not. I think maybe my own definitions of attachment, acceptance, unconditional positive regard, and love are all mixed up.

quote:

What she has said about the difference in love for a biological vs. an adopted child sounds very much like it is based on a personal opinion which she is bringing into the room and I am surprised she would compare you to the adopted child after making it clear she feels so differently.

Yes, it did feel like a punch to the gut. Here I am trying so hard recently to be sweet and easy, to prove that I can be something other than angry, and she just wants to keep harping on the fact that I have been a love tester for so long that how can I expect her to feel all warm and fuzzy towards me? (That is not a direct quote, just my re-wording of the conversation.) I know there are some applications I could be learning here to real-life relationships, like that there are harmful consequences to angry, pushy behavior. But I thought in therapy I was supposed to be "safe" to explore it. I sorta just feel censored instead.

quote:

I hope you can go back and work through this with your T but I also wonder if it would be useful to think about another T, though I know you have a very strong attachment to this one, so you may not appreciate that suggestion but I so hope you can somehow receive the love and acceptance that you deserve.

I know that you are not the only one who feels I might be better off with a different T, and I know the suggestion only comes from concern for me. So thank you. I have tried to consider it recently. But I can't imagine working on attachment with any T if it is just going to be salt in the same gaping wound. If no other T can love me either, then why would I want to torture myself going? If I do go to another T, it would have to be some unappealing, distant, detached, formal person that would only do CBT - who would stay far away from feelings and focus only on left-brained thoughts. And I would have to instruct him from the very beginning that in no way did I want to like him, and that if he or I thought that at any point I was starting to grow fond then he'd better do something cruel right away to discourage it or I would have to flee. And I would never even shake his hand or call him by his first name. I would never let him see inside my soul. And after all those stipulations, of course he would never help me heal either, right?

I don't know what to do. It's been less than 72 hours since my last contact with T and already I am starting to miss her again. Why? Why would I want to go back when I know she doesn't love me? When I know it will only hurt? It's either denial or self-punishment, I guess. I hate it! I keep telling myself that I won't be any more miserable on my own than with her, but that I will have more money in my pocket.

*** Trigger Warning: References to suicidal impulses (past not current) ***

quote:

Originally posted by Liese:
BTW, my brother and sister were both adopted and I am the only natural child. Guess who my mother loved most? My brother. In her view, I got it all, I got my father's wonderful genes .. so I didn't need anything more. They needed more love because they were abandoned, so to speak. Go figure.

Liese, thank you for your support. I am sorry to hear about your experience with how your parents treated you differently than your adopted siblings. Is it still that way to this day? I am grateful you shared this, because it sounds like the opposite of what my T believed to be true. It's good to have another perspective.

quote:

I don't want to say here that she's not the right therapist for you. Maybe you should at least try to tell her how bad it made you feel. Can you place an emergency phone call?

I've only placed one emergency phone call before, and I'm never going to make that mistake again. The last time, T knew I was ringing (because we had been texting prior to the call) but she refused to answer because she didn't like what I had texted to her. She also refused to return the message I left at a later time. She basically ignored me when I was in crisis, and that crisis later developed into a suicide threat a few days later, which she also ignored. She later said she ignored it because she was sure I was just trying to manipulate her. Manipulation or no, I had a loaded weapon and a definite plan. Thankfully, circumstances arose which forced me to postpone my plan a few hours, and by the time I had the opportunity again I had reconsidered. But the experience taught me that my T is not my safety net. So if I ever get to that bad of a spot again, I won't bother to notify her because it wouldn't make a difference.

quote:

Listen, it's just my opinion here. But I do that identity merger thing too, that you mentioned. That your T mentioned that your identity was merged with her. I'm thinking and I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that they provoke anger in order to hasten the separation process.

I think you are right that this is a possibility, especially considering the texts I sent her which I referenced in my post to LG. But I'm not sure, because T usually dislikes me getting angry. If she did intend to hasten the separation process, it was a quick decision since just the night before she was encouraging me to come closer and not stay away where I would be lonely and scared. I clearly don't understand this woman.

Permafrost,Deepfried,Blackbird,STRM,Yaku,Seablue...thank you all for adding your support and positive energy. I appreciate each one of your comments.

Even if I don't like it, (ok... hate it), even if I disagree with the rule, I know that a lot of T's won't say the words "I love you." But even then, it would have been better for her to say, "I wish I could..." But then again, she pretty much indicated she wasn't wishing at the moment either. I do believe she should have some supervision because I think she would only admit to countertransference if someone with credentials pointed it out to her, not me. But she is not a supervisee; instead she is a supervisor of others. And after I suggested about 3 weeks ago that maybe I needed a consult in this therapy because she was harming me, her response was that perhaps it would become a mutual decision that I leave. That was scary to me, because it didn't sound like a promise not to abandon at all. It sounded like a threat, like, "It's either my way or the highway." (She didn't use that actual phrase, of course.)

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
I really do want to make clear that she needed to maintain boundaries around this issue BUT she didn't!! She talked about her feelings about how you had been behaving! Honestly, what I thought was "so go get your own damn therapist and talk to them about it, not to your client."

AG, I think she probably does need her own therapist in order to keep dealing with me. I wonder if I would have that effect on every T. I think I must be capable of driving a T mad, like Bill Murray in "What About Bob?"

quote:

When I expressed my deep, intense longings for something outside of the boundaries of therapy, he was always able to clearly hold that line but he also made it totally clear that there was nothing wrong with me wanting that, and that it was totally understandable that I did long for that considering the deprivations of my childhood.

So yeah technically, she held the line the way she should and telling you it wouldn't be enough anyway was true but damn did she have to use a 2 X 4 to convey her point? Yes, I'm sure it's been difficult for to be pushed away by your for this long time, but if she doesn't like experiencing that, go do something else for a living.

Even though I am hurting, despite myself I had to laugh out loud when I read the way you put this. You do have a way with words. Sometimes I wish I could have you sitting right beside me in my sessions and see how well you could handle my T. But there would probably be a few times you would agree with her point of view (like on holding a boundary), and that would sting. But you would probably at least sugarcoat it for me, right?

quote:

I think your T is projecting her own sibling rivalry into her perception of adoption.

Maybe it is true for some adopted children and for some adopted parents, but I don't believe it's always true or should be treated as a norm.

Thank you for sharing your story about your nephew. I have appreciated all the different experiences of adoption that people have shared. I am glad so many do not agree with my T on this view.

I don't think I am going to change my T's take on adoption. I also don't think I'm going to be successful competing for her love. I don't really know what else I am hoping for, since I'm not at the maturity level to only want good advice from her. It's not really my T's fault. No T can give me what I need. Thank you so much for accepting me here though. I think its time I start focusing on what I have, not what I don't.

(((MH))))

It really sounds like you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. It's a tough one. When are you supposed to see her next?

She really does sound like a tough cookie.

quote:

after I suggested about 3 weeks ago that maybe I needed a consult in this therapy because she was harming me, her response was that perhaps it would become a mutual decision that I leave.

MH,

Ouch! I'm sorry but the more I read about what is going on with your T the more it seems that she just can't seem to stay non-defensive and keep her stuff out of the therapy room. That statement above sounds like a threat to me and when combined with her comments about being upset that you push her away, the comments about adoption and all of the other stuff you have posted previously make me really scared for you and the potential for her to harm you more than she is helping. I would seriously consider seeking a second opinion and if she isn't okay with it then I think that says quite a lot right there. I'm so sorry you are going through such difficulties with your T. All of this is hard enough without adding that on too.

I agree. The more I hear, the more it feels...definitely not right! ((((((MH)))))) Your T should make you feel safe, not like the rug is constantly about to be pulled out from underneath you.

MH,

Sorry, I missed that part about the mutual decision. Ouch.

MH, I'm sorry your T is putting you through such hell.

Listen, one of the things I notice about you is that you are really conscious about your own flaws in a very bluntly sweet and funny way. I always enjoy reading your posts, partly because you are so ready to own up to your foibles and to account for them. This is a STRENGTH. With a good therapist, it would be working in your favour, along with a whole bunch of other strengths you have (such as your passionate feelings, your open heart, your ability to feel your anger, your humour and so on). A good therapist would kindly and gently help you to face the losses and hurts of life, the damage you have suffered, partly by activating your strengths in your healing. That would happen *even if* you were pushing her or him away, even if you came on as angry, pushy, needy or whatever.

Instead what I see happening is that because your T can't handle you, your strengths are working against you. You are conscious of your own transference, your own need, your own aching losses and hurts - and that means that you think you deserve what is happening in your therapy, that it's your fault. You think that it would be the same with any therapist, because you are just a bad client or something.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Good therapy works when it heals flawed, injured, imperfect people - not people who are already just fine. Good therapists have a way of making you *feel* held, cared for, accepted and even loved - with or without those precise words. They don't just do it for the 'good' or 'worthy' clients. They do it for the *human beings* who are in their offices, because they have a calling to teach human beings to be able to feel and accept love.

I know you can't imagine opening your heart up again to anyone else, but I think that's partly because you believe that the pain you are feeling now is your fault. Well, therapy is painful, but when it's working you can feel the healing with the pain. My impression is that instead you are just feeling pain with your pain - because your therapist is hurting you.

Yep, bluntly, in my carefully considered opinion, your therapist is hurting you. You don't deserve it. She doesn't deserve you. She's a cow. Don't worry about getting a consult with her - just go get one for yourself. You're right to be pissed off with her. Trust your instincts and push her off. Go find someone who is worth their salt.

Jones

quote:

after I suggested about 3 weeks ago that maybe I needed a consult in this therapy because she was harming me, her response was that perhaps it would become a mutual decision that I leave.

Ouch! I would be very hurt by that. I'm sorry to hear she is giving you such a hard time, and I agree with the comment that she is coming across as very defensive here.

I'm a little confused as to what you meant by "love-tester" - what does that mean?

quote:

When are you supposed to see her next?

I have appointments scheduled for Tuesday and Thursday of next week. I have not decided whether I should cancel them.

quote:

Your T should make you feel safe

She tells me I am safe. Can she make me feel it though?

quote:

I would seriously consider seeking a second opinion and if she isn't okay with it then I think that says quite a lot right there.

If I decide to get another opinion, I'm not sure the best way to go about it. Do you think I should I tell my T I am going to consult with someone? Or should I do it "behind her back"? If I decide to leave current T, regardless of whether I drop out of therapy altogether or try it with someone new, do you think I should meet with T just to tell her why I'm leaving? Do I owe her that? Is it cruel for me to just walk away without an explanation?

There is another complication which I have not mentioned. My oldest two children also see my T, and they don't want to stop. My daughter has been seeing her as long as I have, although much less frequently. My son has only been seeing her recently, but has developed an instant liking for her and opened up to her immediately. He had previously been seeing a male P for the past 2 years with little progress for his issues and almost zero attachment (CBT therapy). So I am thinking...if my T is not good enough for me, is she good enough for my kids? They seem to be happy with her. If I pull my kids away, will they suffer for it? If I don't pull them away, I will continue to have some limited contact with my T through my kids. That will be hard for me, to keep seeing her all the time when I take my kids to sessions, and to hear my kids talking about her at home.

quote:

Listen, one of the things I notice about you is that you are really conscious about your own flaws in a very bluntly sweet and funny way. I always enjoy reading your posts, partly because you are so ready to own up to your foibles and to account for them. This is a STRENGTH. With a good therapist, it would be working in your favour, along with a whole bunch of other strengths you have (such as your passionate feelings, your open heart, your ability to feel your anger, your humour and so on). A good therapist would kindly and gently help you to face the losses and hurts of life, the damage you have suffered, partly by activating your strengths in your healing. That would happen *even if* you were pushing her or him away, even if you came on as angry, pushy, needy or whatever.

Hi Jones, thanks for joining my pity party! I am a bit embarrassed by your generous assessment of me, but part of me just wants to give you a great big hug for it too. In fact, (and this is not the first time I've thought this), I think I would be just fine if you could be my T. You can PM me for the contract details, k?

quote:

Good therapy works when it heals flawed, injured, imperfect people - not people who are already just fine. Good therapists have a way of making you *feel* held, cared for, accepted and even loved - with or without those precise words....
I know you can't imagine opening your heart up again to anyone else, but I think that's partly because you believe that the pain you are feeling now is your fault.

That sounds right. And yes, I do tend to think its my own fault if it isn't that way. For example, as soon as I read the above quoted paragraph my thoughts were, "Yeah, but what if its just me that refuses to feel loved, no matter who or what is offered to me?" Jones, I really only have long-term experience with one T, so my perspective is admittedly limited.

quote:

I'm a little confused as to what you meant by "love-tester" - what does that mean?

I believe my T uses the term to refer to my acting out behavior or angry projections which I've thrown her way in order to test whether she cares for me, or still cares for me despite my behavior.

Deepfried, thanks for listening. I understand about not knowing what to say, as that is often the case myself when I read others posts.

quote:

Nothing could be further from the truth. Good therapy works when it heals flawed, injured, imperfect people - not people who are already just fine. Good therapists have a way of making you *feel* held, cared for, accepted and even loved - with or without those precise words. They don't just do it for the 'good' or 'worthy' clients. They do it for the *human beings* who are in their offices, because they have a calling to teach human beings to be able to feel and accept love.

Jones... that was beautifully put and describes my newT to the ... well to the "T"! I know he will never say the words "i love you" but he has said that sometimes there is love in the therapy relationship and that is okay and perfectly acceptable and that he is not exempt from the feelings either. He has also said it is a sacred relationship. He also makes me feel held without touching me. He makes therapy much easier than my oldT because he is non -defensive, he accepts and understands attachment and is not afraid of any of the feelings I have.

MH...I'm so sorry you are strugglig with your T but I am truly horrified by some of the things that she says to you. What she said about adoptive children and parents was truly horrible and cruel. As an adoptive mother I have to say I love my child more than anyone in the world and I would die to protect him. I don't even think of him as adopted... he is MINE and part of me. What if your T was talking to someone who was an adoptive mother? What a cruel thing to say. She needs to be in therapy to take care of her own junk before she preaches anything to you!!

Honestly, she is truly scaring me and I'm worried that she is going to really hurt you because she is starting to sound and act like my OldT. She is bringing too much of her own baggage into your therapy. I would strongly urge you to seek a consultation from someone at least to clarify things for you and to validate what we are all saying. I know this is hard and I'm sorry you have to go through this.

I'll comment further in another post as I have no idea how to do the multiple quote thingy.

Hug
TN

quote:

But I can't imagine working on attachment with any T if it is just going to be salt in the same gaping wound. If no other T can love me either, then why would I want to torture myself going? If I do go to another T, it would have to be some unappealing, distant, detached, formal person that would only do CBT - who would stay far away from feelings and focus only on left-brained thoughts. And I would have to instruct him from the very beginning that in no way did I want to like him, and that if he or I thought that at any point I was starting to grow fond then he'd better do something cruel right away to discourage it or I would have to flee. And I would never even shake his hand or call him by his first name. I would never let him see inside my soul. And after all those stipulations, of course he would never help me heal either, right?

Oh dear MH, I could have written that word for word 6 months ago! I could never see myself with another T, even when oldT was acting so crazy and hurtful and unpredictable... and then he abandoned me and I had no choice in the matter. I had to find a T to help me through the devastating grief and loss.

I had no idea I would somehow stumble frozen, starving, wounded and bleeding and terrified into my current T's office and he would be there waiting for me with food, blankets, bandages, warmth and caring. Even then I was so angry at him I wouldn't even "see" him. I would look in his direction but I was unable to register what he looked like. I was angry he was not oldT and that I had to sit in this new and different feeling office with no dog. I stubbornly went week after week but I was not happy about it and I pushed him away and was hostile and did nothing but cry for session after session... but ... then like a miracle I started to feel him despite my grief and fear. He is a really good and skilled T and he knew what I needed and still need and he gave me kindness, time, understanding and total acceptance.

And you know what?

Despite how much I loved my oldT and still love him... I would NOT go back to him if I could. He is not my T ... I found a much better T who cares for me in the correct way by being consistent and stable and steady and understanding and accepting of MY instablity and my issues and fears. And I am attaching to him and I really care for and about him. This is truly so amazing to me that I could do this!

So I just want to say while it was not easy... it was grueling at times and frightening... I survived it and I am in much better hands now than I ever was. And maybe you could be too... if you find someone... the right someone... who can love you (although they won't say it) and they will show you they do by their actions in therapy.

Many hugs to you MH. I hope things work out in the best way possible for you.

TN

((((((((MH))))))))

quote:

Originally posted by MH:
I think I must be capable of driving a T mad, like Bill Murray in "What About Bob?"

I love that movie. By the way, as the movie progresses, you find out that the reason Bob (Bill Murray) drives his T mad is because there is a whole lot more wrong with the T than there is with Bob. I'm just sayin'.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
Yep, bluntly, in my carefully considered opinion, your therapist is hurting you. You don't deserve it. She doesn't deserve you. She's a cow. Don't worry about getting a consult with her - just go get one for yourself. You're right to be pissed off with her. Trust your instincts and push her off. Go find someone who is worth their salt.

Hear, hear.

SG