.

(((Liese)))

I'm sorry that you hate therapy right now. Do you know what triggered this feeling? Did something happen or is it just the fear of the session. It sounds like you think T will be happy if you pull away from him. That would hurt me. I hope you go tomorrow and can express your anger.

((((Liese))))

I have these same struggles with my T, but I think, if I am objective, T will be happy if I am healing, growing, getting through stages and separating when I am ready. At this point, I can never, ever imagine getting there, but I am trying not to worry about that right now. I don't know if this relates, because I don't know exactly what's going on, but I'm here if you want to talk.

Oh, I was just thinking that the whole point of this is for me to move away from T and that he'd be happy because yes, it is a sign of growth, but that yes, he'd be happy. And I can't deal with the pain. It hurts too much.

Liese, I know that pain so well. No amount of T emphasizing it as natural, organic, something that all healthy "kids" grow through will make me feel better about it. I told him once, when he was explaining how someday I would separate and it would be OK, was to imagine me telling that to Boo. He hasn't mentioned it very much at all since then, except when I am already obsessing about the ending, which is in all likelihood, a long way off. I do try to think of it like how I will feel as a mom when Boo is getting ready to go off to college. I will be sad, sure, but so proud of her when she is ready to be on her own and so happy if I was the type of mom that helped her to feel safe going out into the world as a strong, independent young adult. So, imagining my T having those sort of feelings toward the end stages of our work isn't so bad. It's just that I tend to weave rejection and abandonment beneath the idea of parting, especially if the relationship is charged with these early attachment feelings...so it is impossible for me to imagine leaving without it feeling like abandonment, like he is ready to be rid of me and I will still be stuck needing him forever in this desperate, child-like way. But, someday, I suppose, he will just be a dear man who I feel deeply connected to even if I can't see or hear from him every week or even every month. Someone I would still reach out to when life required me to have some extra support (beyond the other relationships I will be growing in the meantime), but not in this life-or-death sort of way I experience now. Despite cognitively grasping it, it is hard to get wounded kids inside to conceptualize separation as anything but the threat of annihilation. I'm not sure if this commiseration helps at all. Sorry if it doesn't. If not, then just more hugs!

Hi Liese... I'm so sorry you are hurting and wanting to cancel you next session but Muff is exactly right. Those are the most important sessions. You need to go and work this through with him. I seem to remember (correct me if I got this wrong) that your T said you can decide when to leave. I don't see any signs of him wanting you to leave.

I am wondering if you shared something with him recently that either made you feel closer to him, or that made you feel shameful or vulnerable and this is scaring you now. Maybe you are taking your fear and projecting him pushing you away (i.e, being happy if you would leave) but instead YOU are pushing HIM away. Could it be that you are afraid that what you shared with him would make him reject you and so you want to reject him first and walk away??

You don't have to answer this here but I thought it would give you something to think over to see if it applies. I often do this very thing and I am starting to recognize it... thanks to my T pointing it out on more than a few occasions! He tells me when I push him away I am abandoning him and that makes him sad to see me suffer alone. That there is safety in the attachment to him.

And Liese, you don't hate him... you are just scared. Tell him that. It's very normal and understandable.

I do hope you keep your appointment and that you can have a good session telling him how you feel tonight.

Sending big hugs
TN

Liese:

I understand 1000% how you feel. This was my exact struggle in therapy as well. I guess one thing I've learned from reading these boards is the struggle was the dynamic. It wasn't specific to us. So its a cliche you'll miss him more. For me it was easier to let go that its about that person even though it feels like it is. Letting go still hurts. I am finding out now on Friday what will be with my past T relationships. If there will be closure etc..
LK

Hi Liese,

Offering support as well. Not as experienced in this area, and honestly I'm learning a lot from this thread! Yep, have felt twinges of this as well.

I know that my T have been having issues, and obviously I'm ambivalent. Had a good session today, though.

One thing he said that struck me. There are times he has soothed me like one would a small child. Once in a while my inner adolescent has needed attending. He has done that as well. He is also accepting the adult in me that has been through so much, the wise one in me.

He has told me that the "need"(the life and death Yaku spoke of) may ebb and flow, and that the therapy may just look different down the road. I really rely on him because he is the only person I really confide in, I live alone, I am very alone. That is huge. I understand how important it is to have that safety net that the T can provide.

He and I also connect on an intellectual level and love to talk just for the hell of it (appropriate to therapy, of course) and one day I asked him point blank if we could part ways gradually (or not at all!) by perhaps just meeting less often, (or not) to just talk about books or ideas or psychology or science or existential issues whatever..most likely in a context that would relate to my personal development. I told him that it would fulfill a need for me, as an intelligent loner, just to have someone to talk to. Just that. He said "yes" of course, we could do that.

It may be analogous to remaining close friends with an adult child. Just because the "child" grows up... does that mean we must sever that connection? Or can it develop into something else that is quite nice? And we still have needs as we get older. Some older adults, sadly, never receive hugs/touch. Yaku put it so nicely... he can still be that "dear man".

And there will still be issues to deal with as we age. The cliched mid-life crisis. Contributing to society. Giving and receiving love. The meaning of life, and death.

I don't want this to be interpreted as developing a friendship out of a therapeutic relationship, or remaining dependent, or sacrificing one's retirement in order to keep going to therapy, but I just wanted to give another perspective. The relationship can evolve, or gradually/naturally dissolve, I think. Why would it necessarily have to involve pain? Maybe not.

Anyway, that thought gave me hope. I hope it helps somehow.

ah, pain. oops.

((((THANKS EVERYONE))))

Not feeling as panicked as I was last night but definitely weepy. I don't have anything coherent to say. I don't know what's going on or what brought this on. Just negative thinking I guess. I almost called last night to cancel my appointment but didn't.

Actually, I had been thinking that I was getting tired of all my walls, all the boundaries in my life. All these needs that want to get met and all the people that can't meet them. Then there are people who want to meet some of my needs but I don't want them to meet those needs so I'm guarded all the time. At home. In therapy. Over the weekend as I was coming to terms with the whole pediatrician thing, I could hardly deal with it myself, much less speak about it to my H and/or my kids. Not that it would be appropriate to talk about it with my kids, but you know what I mean. So, the whole weekend, I'm in incredible pain, by myself. I laid in bed for two hours on Saturday, just shaking. On Sunday, all I wanted to do was to be alone so I didn't have to put the energy into hiding all my pain anymore. This is taking so much energy from me. I need to focus on my life and making money so I can support my kids. I'll never be able to develop "real" relationships, so what's the point of therapy? It's just not going to happen for me. So, why go to therapy? The only relationship I have is with a man who would never want any kind of relationship with me outside of therapy and what is that about anyway?

Liese:
I think you are awesome and we do have much in common. I don't have a family like you. Those are relationships outside of therapy fyi.

Its easier to see this perhaps in someone else's situation but you are NOT desperate for a relationship for my ex Ts and I am not for yours even though we have this issue of attachment to our own. My best understanding of it now is to see it as some kind of an illusion. That strong desire. As abused children I think we get the idea that there is only our family and they haven't met our needs.. I've come to realize there is a big expansive universe out there. If it helps next time you meet someone in your head pretend they are a T or your T just to play a mind game with yourself. Obviously people have very different boundaries outside of therapy. There is a whole world out there of potentially amazing relationships that you haven't discovered yet and they can be the best relationships of your life you just have to get out there and open your heart.

I've been dusting off cob webs off my heart all week. Cob webs I am not sure I even knew were there dealing with my therapy stuff. I think I was afraid the possibilities ended for me at the corners of my known universe. As they say when one door closes another opens. What if after therapy ends you find 5 of the most amazing fulfilling relationships you've ever had? And its with people you aren't paying

LK

((((LAURA))))

You are so sweet. I wish I could see the illusion. Right now all I think and feel is, had I met my T outside of therapy, I would never be good enough for him. He would never be interested in someone like me. And I can't get past that.

Is it just that am I jealous and angry of anyone who is better-looking, smarter, more accomplished, etc. etc.??? Is that all it comes down to.

I'm just so pissed off right now that I don't want to go back. I'm not sure I see what the point is working my feelings through with the man who will always be better than me.

hmm I used to feel that way early on with my current T as he's a former male model.. but I got over it and realized I am pretty cool.

He did build my ego 1000x telling me I am special, awesome, amazing lol. Hmm being better than you I promise is an illusion. Besides what does that even mean better than you? Do you wish you were him? or is it more you want to date him?

I think you just have to find that which you like about yourself and breath into it. No sense in comparing yourself.

You know Liese, have you considered that if you had met your T outside of therapy, you probably wouldn't be interested in HIM, either?

It's just a thought I had.

Laura. I just can't see past the anger right now. Don't you think some people are just better than others? It just is. Some are prettier, more handsome, smarter , more athletic. Have higher gafs. It just is. And I always fall for the ones that are out of my league. Always always always. I can't seem to find my level but don't want my level. Ugggfhjjhhkhhj

quote:

Don't you think some people are just better than others?

No, I don't. We come with different wrapping and different strengths. I think some people are healthier than others. Have a healthier mindset, are more connected with themselves etc.. Have better outlooks. A result of a combo of nurture and nature.

There are no absolute "levels". Just attractions and levels of attractions included in that is an attraction to ourselves. Our relationship with ourself. People have also vastly different taste. Actually, what you are seeing in him is something you have inside you or you wouldn't be able to recognize those qualities in him.

Liese:

Very interesting thread. Things that I have been struggling with myself. I have felt some of the same things you have, these past few weeks!

quote:

I can't seem to find my level but don't want my level.

Another struggle I have, IRL. I also have a very attractive T. We patched things up. I'm getting lots of praise now, (geniune) from him, and I just wonder. I have a hard time accepting too much criticism OR praise.

Do you tend toward perfectionism? Something to think about. We are so harsh on ourselves!! (I am one of the worst)

I gave myself some homework. To study men, see what attracts me to certain ones, and others, not so much. The interesting thing is, I am not always attracted to those that are classically good-looking. Attraction is a strange thing.

Also, notice who compliments you. Do you notice? I find that I tend to gloss over compliments.

I'm also having a hard time with the nature of the therapeutic relationship. At times it does feel like I'm "suspending my disbelief" and that my T just pretends to tell me I'm amazing, etc. One of the reasons I went into therapy in the first place was because I was in a state of despair- feeling like every single person on the planet, including myself, was a fake/phony. Doubting the existence of love and sincerity and authenticity. Ha! joke.

I often ask my T "Are you for real?" It's almost funny.

I do now believe that many T's want to be there, that they do care, and actually enjoy our company (most of the time) and wonder... if sometimes... the therapeutic relationship is special in its own right. I try to think unconventionally and feel luck to have this unusual relationship, because without it I AM utterly alone.

To address what you had said at the beginning of the thread, I do believe that the (therapeutic) relationship can evolve with us. Life always has its challenges. Perhaps when attachment is no longer such an issue, we will want someone to discuss deep, existential issues with. (for example) Liese, you seem very intelligent. Can your T keep up with you as you progress?

As Laura K said- people have vastly different taste. I (hope) we both find peace and lasting hope. Rooting for you (us?)

Laura. I wish I could see things the way you do. I just can't see a way past this right now and I feel like I ruined the relationship today.

(((Liese)))

I'm getting caught up. I'm sorry you feel like you ruined therapy today. I don't know what happened but I know that when I've thought that about my therapeutic relationship it hasn't been true. My T is still there when I go to my session.

Laura. Here's the thing


How can I go back and look him in the eye, how can he have any respect for me whatsoever because he knows and I know he knows, he knows that I would have laid down on the floor and let him walk all over me?

Liese,

what do you mean? did you say you would lie down and let him walk over you? did you say it today? is it possible he understands that you were expressing a great deal of pain and sadness? It sounds that way to me.

No, I didn't say that today. But I've told him in the past that I'm aware I would do anything for him. I just think it's obvious. It's just the nature of who I am. I'm a pleaser. That's what pleasers do.

I think that when I pretend the relationship is on a different level than what it is, I'm able to hide that fact from myself, that I would have let him take advantage of me. But by recognizing the boundaries that are there and the pain that comes with it, I have to face the cold, hard truth that I would have let him take advantage of me. And he knows it. And I know it. How can I go back and look him in the eye? How can he have any respect for me whatsover?

Liese,

Sorry you are feeling this way. I've spent time in a similar feeling all week (anger at therapy for different reasons though). I don't think anyone is less good than anyone else with the exception of myself - I often feel perpetually lower or barely equal to most of the human population. I know you've been closer to your T recently and talking about super vulnerable stuff and I think TN might have been on to something that that is kind of triggering stuff that makes it harder relationally. This happens to me all the time so it's the best I can think of.

Sometimes... I've noticed when we believe things we believe that others believe those things too. For example you believe that some people are inherently better than others - but your T might not subscribe to this idea meaning he feels an equal to you, or isn't judging. T2 talked with me about this sort of thing in length today. I hate myself, and feel hate-able and I hate when I express ANYTHING and therefore... I believe that others must hate me, find my hate-able and absolutely abhor any time I express anything when... that's not necessarily always the case. My T says she doesn't judge and her thoughts when people express things are that it's good and that when I'm expressing myself (in ways that I think are unacceptable - such as showing weakness) it is because I'm hurting and she is there to help not to judge. I just believe so strongly that I'm awful I can't conceive for long periods of time that other people can't see that, can't see my weaknesses and ultimately hate me for them the same I hate me.

Anyway sorry you are hurting. The good thing about your T is even if you laid on the floor and let him walk all over you - he wouldn't because he has your best interests in mind. Chances are he is not judging you for those things, does not think less of you even if you think less of yourself.

Today I didn't want to see my T, I thought it would be humiliating that I'd end up in a messy pile when I got home but it turned out to be a very gentle session and I feel much safer, closer, acceptable to my T. So I'd encourage you to go if it feels even a little safe. Thankfully my T gave me permission to cover my head with a blanket and just having that permission was enough to make me feel more comfortable.

So he is stronger. More connected with himself. That's ok. You can learn from that.

Ruined it how?

Are you angry with yourself or with T?

I am serious what you are seeing in him is a reflection of aspects of your own self.

I am of the belief that we are all made in "gods" image. A reflection of godliness. All of us are deserving and worthy of love. No levels.

(((NUMBER9)))) We cross-posted. I appreciate all your thoughts. I need to think about all the wise things you said.

"times it does feel like I'm "suspending my disbelief" and that my T just pretends to tell me I'm amazing."

I really relate to that.

((((ALPACA)))) I missed your post at the top. Yes, who knows. That might be true. But I'll never know, will I? I can't turn back the clock. I'll never get the opportunity to know how much I would actually like him outside of therapy because all I see is what he presents.

((((COGS))))

Thanks for your thoughts as well.

(((((CAT)))))

That self-hate stuff is something, isn't it? I'm sorry you have so much self-hate. That has to hurt so much.

"I don't think anyone is less good than anyone else with the exception of myself - I often feel perpetually lower or barely equal to most of the human population."

That made me cry for you.

(((LAURA))))

I was just so angry at him. And I expressed it. It felt like rage. He was calm. And he took it. I'm sure I didn't ruin the relationship. I just don't feel so connected right now.

Just have to go ponder the meaning of the universe. And Number9, thank you for the compliment but T is way smarter than me. I could never keep up with him.

I am not a "pleaser". I don't think of life in those terms ever like wanting to walk all over someone or that they could me do that to me.

being a people pleasure might be connected to your need for validation.

Laura, I want to say that you are lucky that you don't think in those terms but I know that you've had your own struggles in life. T was talking today a lot about control, the external locus of control and how I feel powerless and how I feel that he has all the control. Funny, I told him why I thought a particular memory had come up, and he said, oh, does it have anything to do with the work we've been doing on control? Well, I had no idea we'd been working on control issues. Silly me. It's like the Turn of the Screw. How many more turns can he turn the screw before I just snap? Is he somehow squeezing those memories out of me every time he turns the screw a little more?

Laura, I am glad to hear that you don't think in terms of taking advantage of people but there are people out there who would and do take advantage of other people. There are therapists who would take advantage of the clients. It happens. T knows I'm vulnerable.

It's just hard to face who I am, Laura. It hurts.

xoxo

Liese

((((Liese))))

I'm sorry it hurts so much right now. I think we all want control but we have different strategies to get control and different arenas in which control matters. I've been reading an interesting blog on control called Monkeytraps.

I think it is okay that T knows you are vulnerable. You have a good T. I think you are being so hard on yourself. We are all vulnerable in some way.

((((Liese))))

I've only known you a day or so from your posts and already I am sure in real life if I met you that you are seriously someone I'd want to know. I think mothers being doormats and invalidating of their daughters probably gave you some of these issue and insecurities. You sound like a great person and I think your T is lucky to have a connection with you and I bet he feels that way.

(((Liese))) Just thinking of you.

Liese,

Ahhhh Liese - you know that these times are the MOST important times to front up to T. he KNOWS you are coming from a painful place, he knows your anger is pain, terror, fear and all your nightmares wrapped up in 1. He will be there for you. He is watching you react to all the things inside you and he is waiting for you to put your hand out. You haven't wrecked anything with him. Your T is rock solid.

The pediatrican memory stuff has knocked you around - your T knows this. He has seen your pain and it will be hurting him too. I think you are reacting to the incredibly HUGE memory that came back to you. Let him in. Let your T help you. Take it gently, but don't give up. Go back and talk it over with him.

((((COGS))))(((LAURA))))((((YAKU))))((((KANSAS))))(((((HOPEFUL))))((((SOMEDAYS))))

I am overwhelmed by all the support. You guys are the best.

It's one of those "ride this one out" times, I think. I think I got closer to something and got scared but I'm not sure what. Funny thing is I'm strong enough now to run.

It feels like a near miss.

I don't understand control. He said we've been working on it but I didn't realize it. Maybe having to do with asking for what I need and feeling vulnerable about it. Waiting for him to do something.

Sometimes he's just in such a perky mood that I can't get serious. I told him I can't get serious when he is so perky. I mirror his mood. (how old am I? I'm still mirroring.) He told me that I need to go where I need to go, not to pay attention to him, that he will follow. Why is it so hard to take that first jump?

UGGGGHHHHH,
Liese

Liese you are strong & smart. I believe in you.

Liese - it is so hard to take that first jump because it is all so very painful for us. Subconciously we will try anything to distract us or avoid having to face the pain face on - that is why his 'perkiness' can distract you and why it is so hard to make that jump.

I think you are absolutely right - you got close to some of that pain and it is scary. This is all a reaction and that is why you have to talk about it with him. This is what the therapy and the relationship is all about.

It might not feel it right now = but Liese you are doing a really great job. Reading your posts I can see you struggling - but you are still moving forward as you are digging deep, thinking, analysing, questioning yourself, asking advice and taking it on and then problem solving.

Laura k and someways

Thanks for all the support. Its been rough but you guys know that. I felt like I had an earthquake. I am not sure if anger
Makes me feel like this or if its that I am getting close to some pain? Or both. What the anger does to me maybe when I feel violated in some way? And that's why I have such a hard time asserting myself? Because boundary violatios make me angry which triggers traumatic memories? Still trying to figure it all out.

The problem for me is that when I experiences the major trauma, I didn't recognize that I had any rights To my boundaries and so the question I am asking myself is how can I be angry about something retrospectively when at the time I wasn't aware I was being violated? Does that make sense? I feel sad that I didn't know that my biundaries were being violated and angry st the people who were supposed to teach me about boundaries so this wouldn't happen.

Ugghhh. I called T on Friday for extra support. He said we are doing the work that needs to be done. He also said he knows it's very hard.

So I did what any respectable borderline would do and I impulsively decided to go skiing and spend money I don't have just to distract myself from my pain.

Hugs
Liese

Don't be so hard on yourself, Liese. If you did DBT they would spend an entire unit of the skills class teaching you how to distract yourself from the pain. True story. Now ideally you'd do it in a way that fits your budget, but I'd say skiing sounds really positive and appropriate to me compared to some of the other options you might have had.

(((ALPACA))

Glad to hear that distracting yourself from pain is a skill. Maybe I am learning something. But you're right, I need to find something to fit my budget.

(((XOXO)))

Thanks for the kind words and support. I don't know how I am going to turn the corner here but hopefully will do so soon.

(((Liese)))

I agree that it is good you did something to distract you like skiing and even better that you are doing something physical. It is hard sitting with negative feelings for a prolonged period of time. Also so many different feelings can up surrounding an experience that you didn't fully understand at the time so I think there is a lot of different things to be worked through.

I hope that it gets easier soon.