awwww (((Liese))) i'm sorry for your pain right now. i don't know how to stop it, either. but i think it might be good to stick with the therapy and work through this. that's what therapy is for, after all. it does suck and i'm sorry it's so painful. the more i think about it, the more i think it's probably a good idea to go back and confront these feelings. wish i could make your pain go away, but for as difficult as i know it is, i think it would be good to work through this with your T. (((((Liese)))))

and for what it's worth, i think your T cares about you and is NOT tired of you. i'd bet on it.

Liese I have felt this way at times and it has not turned out that my T had changed in any way... it was me and my perceptions that changed and that were not accurate.

I wonder if his recent trip felt threatening to you because you fear that if he finds a romantic interest (not saying he has) that it will be a threat to your relationship with him and because of this you are now pushing him away and abandoning the relationship (or looking for reasons to abandon it) before you fear he will abandon you for this unknown romantic interest.

I know that I have done this to my T at times... one time was when his wife moved into the office next to his. She felt like a very real threat to me mostly because of my past abuse and also what happened with oldT and his wife. He explained that in my fear I was abandoning him and trying to break our attachment but that he had not changed at all, nothing had changed except that I was understandably (due to my past) triggered by the appearance of his wife in the office suite.

Once I was able to work through this with him and settle down and realize that nothing would change and that he would protect me, I could see him more clearly once again and he was the same as always.

I'm not absolutely sure this is happening with you and T but it's worth examining and talking it through with him.

It really sucks though that it's so painful.

TN

quote:

I'm tired of missing someone who doesn't miss me.

I understand this a lot, with my ED T. I'm so sorry you're feeling this right now. It is so hard when we're aware of the distance and can't fill it with whatever is needed to maintain a connection despite the lack of intensity/reciprocation (and in my ED T's case a lack ability). For some reason, I don't feel the stinging loss of a "real" relationship because somehow it is real within the limitations. I wish I knew how to do that with anyone else...

I'm trying to learn giving without reciprocation - which I can do with many things. However, as I've learned to listen to my heart and own my deep sensitivity... learning to deal with the pain of giving it freely and knowing I'm still enough somehow... Impossible, is how it feels.

I'm deeply deeply sorry for how painful this is... you're not alone in it.

Liese, I read the other thread about disclosure and with both of them - I am feeling very familiar with the things you are writing about.

For me - a few things happening around the same time rocks my world - like T taking a break or being on vacation - takes me 1 to 2 months to trust again, T saying the wrong thing, not saying what I want to hear / not disclosing / having a session where she is tired and not in tune.

Any of those or a couple of them happening at the same time sends terror into me - not always at a conscious level. THEN it takes longer again to settle.

This week I challenged my T and told her that she is acting differently / not as in tune / not paying the same attention. Yes - it is probably to do with me feeling insecure (and a thousand other reasons) - but I read back to emails a year ago and T and I were in a rupture at the same time - so I think she does have a problem at this time of year.

It isn't all me. I KNOW it isn't all me.

T isn't aware of her being different or getting sick of me or anything - but she IS different. So our T's sometimes aren't aware of it.

When I accuse T of not being totally present - she does believe me as she says I am so hypervigilant of her - I am usually right. I also tell her when she is tired or getting sick - as I can see it / sense it.

So Liese - your instincts might be right and your T might not quite be with it - but... i think it is probably that WE aren't in tune. I think if our T's are a tiny bit out of kilter - then when that gets to us it is like a tornado. Like a ripple in a pond - when we get it on the edge of the pond it is a huge wave.

It took me 2 weeks to tell T i was angry with her. I couldn't say all the words, but I did say it. T was then very responsive. She assures me she isn't sick of me etc etc. She can say the words but the are just things that float through my ears and they don't stop the pain inside. At some point I can't stand the pain and I say something, but that then causes more pain - it is just horrible.

SD

I read through this post entitled SO MUCH PAIN, and i see this common thread of "Feeling as if my therapist has changed towards me", "feeling uncared for, feeling unvalidated and the terror of being abandoned". THIS IS SO PAINFUL, CONFUSING and almost impossible to sort through. I have felt and still at times feel these emotions. I am both intrigued, bewildered and frightened by them - i found them difficult to understand and found them interfering with my therapy to the point that therapy became about the "RELATIONSHIP" and not about the therapy. I found this book called Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman M.D. I am going to write out a long passage entitled TRAUMATIC TRANSFERENCE and i hope that it gives you some insight into why you feel this way about your said T's. I of course don't know what your history's are, but because i went through the same pain, this particular passage gave me in huge insight into my feelings and behaviour and thereby diminishing the fear, the pain and a start in understanding these reactions. "Patients who suffer from a traumatic syndrome form a characteristic type of transference in the therapy relationship. Their emotional responses to any person in a position of authority have been deformed by the experience of terror. For this reason, traumatic transference reactions have an intense, life-or-death quality unparalleled in ordinary therapeutic experience. In Kimberg's words, "It is as if the patient's life depends on keeping the therapist under control" (HC TALKING - DON'T LET THOSE WORDS "KEEPING THE THERAPIST UNDER CONTROL ANNOY YOU - JUST KEEP READING) Some of the most astute observations on the vicissitudes of traumatic transference appear in the classic accounts of the treatment of borderline personality disorder, (HC TALKING - NO YOU MAY NOT HAVE THIS DISORDER JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE FEELINGS YOU ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT - DON'T LET THIS TRIGGER YOU) written when the traumatic origin of the disorder was not yet known. In these accounts, a destructive force appears to intrude repeatedly into the relationship between therapist and patient. This force, which was traditionally attributed to the patient's innate aggression, can now be recognized as the violence of the perpetrator. The psychiatrist Eric Lister remards that the transference in traumatized patients does not reflect a simple dyadic relationship, but rather a triad: "The terror is as though the patient and therapist convene in the presence of yet another person. The third image is the victimizer who.....demanded silence and whose command is now being broken"

The traumatic transference reflects not only the experience of terror but also the experience of helplessness. At the moment of trauma the victim is utterly helpless. Unable to defend herself, she cries for help, but no one comes to her aid. She feels totally abandoned. The memory of this experience pervades all subsequent relationships. The greater the patient's emotional conviction of helplessness and abandonment, the more desperately she feels the need for an omnipotent rescuer. Often she casts the therapist in this role. She may develop intensely idealized expectations of the therapist. The idealization of the therapist protects the patient, in fantasy, against reliving the terror of the trauma. In one successful case both patient and therapist came to understand the terror at the source of the patient's demand for rescue: "The therapist remarked, "It's frightening to need someone so much and not be able to control them". The patient was moved and continued this thought: "It's frightening because you can kill me with what you say...or by not caring or (by) leaving". The therapist then added, "We can see why you need me to be perfect".

When the therapist fails to live up to these idealized expectations - as she inevitably will fail - the patient is often overcome with fury. Because the patient feels as though her life depends upon her rescuer, she cannot afford to be tolerant; there is no room for human error. HC - THERE IS ANOTHER LITTLE PARAGRAPH WHICH HELPED ME UNDERSTAND MY FEELINGS TOWARDS MY THERAPIST TO. " Though the traumatized patient feels a desperate need to rely on the integrity and competence of the therapist, she cannot do so, for her capacity to trust has been damaged by the traumatic experience. Whereas in other therapeutic relationships some degree of trust may be presumed from the outset, this presumption is never warranted in the treatment of traumatized patients. The patient enters the therapeutic relationship prey to every sort or doubt and suspicion. She generally assumes that the therapist is either unable or unwilling to help. Until proven otherwise, she assumes that the therapist cannot bear to hear the true story of the trauma. HC I ADD HEAR TOO, THAT NOT JUST CANNOT BEAR TO HEAR THE TRUE STORY, BUT BECAUSE OF WHAT EVER TRAUMA IT MIGHT BE, THAT SOMEHOW SHE WILL SEE A WEAKNESS IN ME.

Anyway, everyone, i hope this helps you a little in trying to understand Trauma, your reactions towards your therapist and maybe your perceived reactions of your therapist. I have said it here once before somewhere. YOUR THERAPIST IS NOT GOING TO DELIBERATELY HURT YOU, SHE IS NOT GOING TO TRY TO DESTROY YOU. THERAPISTS JUST SIMPLY DO NOT WORK IN THAT WAY,

Hey, thanks for all your support. It's been difficult.

((CD))

Thanks for your support. It helps to hear that you don't think he's tired of me. I am planning on going but now the problem is, only three more sessions until my vacation. I'll be gone for about 3 weeks. I don't think that is helping my sense of stability right now either. I kind of feel like, what's the point of going for the 3 sessions. It would be so much easier to detach now and resume after my vacation.

(((MONTE))

You are probably right that they don't change, that it's our perceptions that change. My vacation will hopefully give me some perspective.

(((TN)))

Yes, I am afraid he will abandon me. That fear can be brutal at times.

((CAT))

Thanks for your understanding. I do find it very hard to stay committed to this process with the unequal balance of feelings. I missed him terribly while he was gone though I didn't recognize that until this past Thursday when I saw him for the first time after his vacation. He had a great time. After I told him I missed him and he didn't respond, I said, "so, I suppose you didn't miss me". He was honest and told me he didn't miss me. After I expressed sadness that some therapists do miss some of their clients when they go on vacation, he said he could honestly say he didn't miss anyone.

Our relationship is well-established now so that I wasn't that hurt by what he said. I KNOW that he needed this vacation. He's been rundown for some time. The bags under his eyes have been very obvious. It was just hard to hear when I just wanted to throw myself into his arms and say, "I'm so glad you are back."

((Somedays))

You are so right about things piling up and rocking my world. There's his vacation, my vacation. We just started to email and, honestly, I hate it. I'm so glad he never gave me his email address before and I just want to burn it out of my memory. Unfortunately, I can't. I'm very sensitive to everything right now. It's hard.

And yes, I do think my instincts are right that he's not quite with it. That's what screws with my mind. There's something going on with him - regardless of whether or not it has to do with me. Since he's not big on disclosure, all he keeps saying is, you have to trust me, nothing has changed. I keep noticing little things that he's doing differently and I feel convinced something has changed. I just wish he could find a way to validate my perceptions and communicate it to me in a way that he's comfortable with.

((Cat))

You are right on there. Part of the problem for me is that I said emotional things in my email when he was away about how grateful I am for him that he didn't respond to. I just pictured him rolling his eyes and felt like crawling under a rock. He responded to other things I wrote and so it is still a bit of a mystery to me why he didn't respond to those statements. The one time I even asked if I was being too appreciative and the other time even made reference to me not being hormonal.

((Have Courage)))

Hi there! Thanks for chiming in. You hit it on the nose with this:

"Feeling as if my therapist has changed towards me", "feeling uncared for, feeling unvalidated and the terror of being abandoned".

Thanks for reminding me of Judith Herman's book. I love it. I was drawn to this part and have to really give it some serious thought:

quote:

In these accounts, a destructive force appears to intrude repeatedly into the relationship between therapist and patient. This force, which was traditionally attributed to the patient's innate aggression, can now be recognized as the violence of the perpetrator. The psychiatrist Eric Lister remards that the transference in traumatized patients does not reflect a simple dyadic relationship, but rather a triad: "The terror is as though the patient and therapist convene in the presence of yet another person. The third image is the victimizer who.....demanded silence and whose command is now being broken"

I've been feeling as if all of this stuff is touching on something from the past but couldn't quite place it until I read the word "authority" and thought of my relationship with my Dad. Wow, that gave me some answers really fast. Kind of filled the whole thing in.

quote:

"It's frightening because you can kill me with what you say...or by not caring or (by) leaving".

I read that part to my T a while back because I was afraid of what he was thinking about me - because there were times when he did kill me with what he said.


Honestly, what confuses me, as someone who has let herself get mistreated by others, is how do I really know? I really feel as if something has changed in the way that he is interacting with me but he insists nothing has changed.

quote:

When the therapist fails to live up to these idealized expectations - as she inevitably will fail

Is it really just a matter of him failing to live up to my idealized expectations or is he tired of me? That's what scares me.

Here is his last email. I found it a bit harsh but, then again, that's me. I'm not going to email anymore because it doesn't seem to help and actually hurts.

quote:

Hi,
First of all, let me say I'm truly sorry that you're in so much pain. I try very hard to do my best to help you not to have to go through that and I feel very bad that it's not working.

I understand that you want to have me respond in a less cognitive way and I do try, but as I said yesterday, when you don't hear me say something, or say it the way you'd prefer, it would be beneficial to you to work on not projecting feelings/rationales onto my responses. I explained why I responded that way & that it was not because I was disgusted but my perception was that there was nothing more to say. Please accept my explanation, you may not like it, but it is the truth...I didn't and do not judge you.

We certainly can talk about your feelings about my vacation or fear that the therapeutic relationship will change. I want you to express any of your concerns and we can work through them; however, you are right regarding my belief that boundaries and limited self-disclosure are important. I sincerely am sorry that that results in you thinking I'm cruel and your feelings hurt.

We,obviously, need to discuss these issues more. It will also be better to handle this at our session on Monday. Until then, I am going to encourage you to accept my reassurance that I do not have any of the negative feelings or judgements that you have felt from my lack of responses nor has the relationship changed.

Once again, I am truly sorry for your pain and hope you can use my reply and reassurances to help ease some of it. Please take care and looking forward to talking with you Monday.

that is a good email reply. He said sorry a lot!

It sounds very genuine.

(((SD)))

Thanks for your take on it. You know how hard it is to be objective when you are the one involved. I'm reacting to every little word. The overall tone could be nice but one thing at the end blows the whole the out of the water.

I wrote back and asked him, if he was able to, to call me for a minute because I needed to hear his tone. He did call and we had a nice chat.

(((SD)))

Do you think it's just the formal way that he speaks/writes that makes him feel so detached to me?

Yeah maybe. My T would say the same types of things that he did but she would not write correct sentences - hers are all over the place with errors and it looks quickly written. That is her style too.

What I liked about your T's reply is that it looks like he took a lot of time to write it and it was a very considered response.

As a stranger reading it, it doesn't read that he is detached - BUT - I really get from my experiences that you would still be feeling it. Sometimes it is the other stuff that is getting in the way - the things unsaid, the things he won't say and do, the stuff that is upsetting .... - maybe all that is getting in the way and it probably doesn't matter what he says - it will still feel detached.

SD

((SD))

Yes, you are right. It probably doesn't matter what he says when I feel like I do now. I do feel like a toddler kicking and screaming while someone is trying to offer me something that isn't quite the right thing but nothing seems to pacify me.

He is the one thing in my life that stabilizes me and keeps me grounded. When there is any change, such as his vacation, my vacation, or my perceptions that his feelings towards me have changed, i.e, he is tired of working with me, it rocks my world.

(((Liese))) I'm sorry you are in so much pain. Your T does seem genuinely sorry for it too, but I would really struggle with the formal tone as well. It's hard for me to connect to the care there. I think, if what I needed at the moment was to feel understood, your T's email would be very helpful to me. But if what I needed was to feel connected, it would come across as cold and a little distant.

I don't think my T would ever say he missed me, but he would say something kind like we are always connected, or he takes me (his care for me) with him. For me, I disconnect so easily from people when they are gone, because so many, and very important people, disappeared mostly or entirely. But my T either doesn't have a similar experience or else has worked through it, so when we have a break, I really do believe he still feels connected, does not therefore feel the absense, and has no.reason to miss me. The unrequited needing of the other person can make our missing so intense and scary, a repeat of what it was like to be a kid with caregivers who were neither caring nor giving.

I think, on one level, cognitively, you can accept that if your T is trustworthy, and your well-being matters to him, he would never: a) abandon you; b) lie to you if something was wrong or changing. That he won't say he misses you means he won't pull punches and will tell you the truth if something is off. It doesn't mean something isn't different inside him that has nothing to do with you and you could definitely be picking up on whatever that shift is, whether or not he is aware of it.

Just because you choose to cognitively accept his assertion that all is well doesn't mean your feelings will follow. You probably honed yourself to watch for subtle shifts in behavior and relationships, and however unlikely it is that our few hours a week with our Ts are related to an overall shift in their behavior, in the past it WAS made about us, made our responsibility, so it was a protective function to be able to predict and analyze the shifts. The feelings cannot just be over-ridden. That is, I think, why your T is encouraging you to try to put aside the projections as much as possible until you can discuss this in person, because what you need is a feeling level experience of this being different than your past, safe to reconnect. Breaks of any size are always like that for me.

The thing I have noticed with my own T's responses when I need connection, and not just to be understood, is that the smaller his response, the safer it feels. I don't know if it is because all that other, extra, intellectual stuff I didn't need at the moment just gives me more room to read in other stuff, or some other reason. But, if I were feeling how you are, a simple text like, "No need to worry. Still here. Not going anywhere, not changing. You're cared about." Or even any one of those short statements would give a lot of relief." A longer, more thorough response would make me feel...I don't know...scared for some reason...and burdensome. I got argued out of having my own feelings, especially if they threatened my parents (mostly mom, but dad invalidated my thoughts a lot). So, a long response about how I'm misreading things might trigger a lot of messages about how I'm wrong and bad and unappreciative for feeling upset, or simply just not allowed to be. I don't know if you have any similar experiences, but just something that came to mind.

Sorry for any typos; wrote from my phone.

((ANON))

That was great writing, especially from your phone!!! I related to everything you said. I have to leave for work now but will be back later to reply more fully.

What I hear in his email is anger and frustration. Does anyone else hear that? Or is it just me?

It's just you, Liese. Because you are angry with him you are projecting that anger.

I do it too and at times have had a good friend read my T's emails because I could not be objective about his responses.

Hang in there
TN

Hi Liese,

I read the email three times trying to decide how I felt about it. To me, it does not seem angry and frustrated but it is a little clinical and professional for my taste-- I mean it would feel disappointing if what I was looking for was reassurance. On the other hand, like SD said, you can tell he put some time and thought into composing it and I think that would make me feel better, on reflection. I hope you will feel better about it soon, too.

Hugs to you.

((((ANON)))

quote:

Your T does seem genuinely sorry for it too, but I would really struggle with the formal tone as well. It's hard for me to connect to the care there. I think, if what I needed at the moment was to feel understood, your T's email would be very helpful to me. But if what I needed was to feel connected, it would come across as cold and a little distant.

That helps a lot. When I sent my email, I really couldn't talk to him over the phone but needed to. I thought he would call me in response to my email. When I got his reply email, it really hit me hard. It felt so cold. I wasn't sure I'd be able to go to my session on Monday. Then I told myself, well, why not just ask him for what I want? I really needed just to talk to him for a minute. So I sent him an email asking him to call me for a minute if he could. He did and that was SO much better. I'm swearing off emailing.

The rest of what you wrote was right on and very wise. I would love to have heard:

quote:

"No need to worry. Still here. Not going anywhere, not changing. You're cared about." Or even any one of those short statements would give a lot of relief."

Yes. That was it. But maybe he responds the way he does because I pick apart every little thing he says. It's not like I asked for reassurance in my email even though that's what I wanted. I was looking for evidence of a shift in him and that's what I was pointing out. "Well, you said that or didn't do this and that means you must be detached." I'm not easy. I could have continued to do that with his reply email but at some point, I had to let go. It was snowballing out of control.

I do wish he would give me a little more validation in situations like this. I'm never sure if he's being defensive or trying to confront my cognitive distortions. It's hard when the words hurt and then it feels like he is invalidating me by saying he didn't mean it the way I took it. It starts to screw with my reality and I start to doubt myself. Old wounds.

He does tend to be a bit more cognitive generally and has to work at the emotional stuff. He just has a different style of communication.

(((TN))) (((HELD)))

Thanks to both of you for your takes on the email. It helps.

Not to be combative but just to "prove" that I wasn't necessarily all that off, would anyone tell their T that you showed their email to others and they felt it was a bit clinical? That sounds like a bad idea as I'm writing it out.

(((MONTE)))

Thanks for sharing that. It is such a painful thing to go through. I'm not glad that you spiral like I do but it helps to know that I'm not the only one to do it. I wonder how long my self-imposed email ban will last.

You are right about telling T about my psyche cafe validation. I just need to feel entitled to my feelings regardless of what he says. Why can't the two things exist at the same time? He can be clinical and he cares about me.

This morning I'm feeling like I just can't dismiss my feelings. I can't dismiss the fact that something has changed. It might not have anything to do with me. But I'm not sure. His verbal reassurances aren't enough.

I'm not going to go in tomorrow and pick apart everything he says but I can't go in and be the good girl either. I've done that much too often in my life and it's too much to ask of me.

Would it be fair of me to say that I feel that something has changed and I can't ignore it and I think it's unfair of him to ask me to ignore it? This is the part of me that has protected me over the years. Not well, but better than the other parts of me.

It's been in the little things over the last month or so and that I just can't ignore those things just because he wants me to. On the other hand, we do need to move on but I just want him to respect my feelings, that part of me that does not trust easily. It IS a part of me after all. I don't think it's a part he necessarily likes but it is a part of me that needs respect.

I think I spiral when I feel invalidated and I'm being asked to discount my feelings, even if they seem irrational to the other. My irrationality is being measured by someone else whose level of rationality we do not know. It's like some screwy thing goes on in my head and I have to retreat to another world, some childlike world, where I had no power and felt helpless and alone. Like I'm under water, flailing about and no one can hear me screaming.

Healing is so painful. As my T says during these times "it's important to remember these are feelings from the past..."

(((MELBA)))

Thanks for reminding me of that. It's just really scary. I knew he wouldn't miss me but I was hoping that he could embrace the fact that I would miss him. Does that make sense? Kind of like how I might be with my kids. They might miss me at times more than I miss them but I'm surely going to appreciate their love and help them with their fears.

I know he needed the rest and didn't miss me or any of his other clients but the reality is he would surely miss his clients if they stopped calling. Just because we need they on an individual/emotional level more than they need us doesn't mean they don't need us. Maybe I'm just not feeling appreciated?

The reality is that therapy involes more intense feelings on our part than theirs. Unrequited love seems to be a natural part of it. The whole setup is just one huge enactment for me and I hate it.

It's not him you want to miss you. Once your through this, everything will feel enough. Easier said I know.
I do understand your pain. I no doubt shall go through similar again no doubt.

From my recent experience, my T just returned from a few weeks' vacation and we saw her last week. While it was great to see her and the feeling of "coming home" a bit sweet, we couldn't answer her inquiry about our feelings of hurt and anger that she went away to begin with. Before she left, both li'l one and I sat with eyes glued to the floor practically the entire time. When we were able to get the words out, we said we thought we were the ones to cause her going away. She said that simply wasn't the case. The reason therapists need to go on vacation is to stay healthy so they can come back and really listen to their clients. The tears just continued to pour down my face cuz I found that hurt to know that fact even more. It hurts now, even as I type about it. The adult me gets it but li'l one ain't convinced. It also doesn't help that T is leaving again for another week soon. I absolutely hate the months of July and August.

I guess what I'm trying to (unsuccessfully) say is their leaving for no matter what reason feels like abandonment and I wonder if that excruciating feeling of emptiness when they do leave will ever, ever heal. The way T explained it to me is because it's my deepest and biggest trigger as a eesult of losing both my parents in a car accident when only six months old, it's going to take longer. Wish we could believe her....

The Kid and li'lone

Hi Melba and The Kid,

Thank you both for your understanding. I read a while ago that pain is pain and that advil helps with emotional pain. So, I took some a little while ago and guess what? I feel better. I can't believe it. Maybe it's all psychological but who cares, right?