(((TAS)))
it is all very confusing, and i honestly don't think you'll find a person here that does not think you're trying. it's obvious you're fighting for your life and you struggle but you stick with it for all it's uncomfortableness.

when you ask why you can't just STOP it i thought of the Bob Newhart clip. LOL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mw

yeah, it would be nice to just magically "stop it"! the trouble is our minds are indeed hard-wired to believe the things we believe. it takes a long time and hard work to redirect this hard-wiring. but it IS possible. and i think therapy is your best bet for that re-wiring.

TAS, you might have a hard time swallowing this, but it's not something you are "doing" to your T. is it a conscious "doing"? i highly doubt it. do you consiously think "i'm going to equate T with my past abusers"? of course not! it's a subconcious going-on and you can't THINK yourself out of this. you have to experience with your T that he is not the abuser, he is safe. and it may take 50 or 100 or 269 times before the re-wiring is complete to where you no longer believe that about T or any other figure of authority.

what i read so often in your posts is that you are trying to "figure it out" or "wrap your brain around" this stuff. the thing is, it's not a cognitive function. all the stuff that you're experiencing is a FEELING function. of course, that is foreign to you since you learned early on to shut that stuff off because it was either too painful or wasn't listened to by important others, and you learned it was safer to ignore the feelings.

the function of therapy is to help you undo the projection (transference). that's the stuff to work through in therapy and come out the other side so it no longer affects your life now.

you can't hide it, TAS. please don't even try to hide it! this really is the work of therapy. TELL him about what you're feeling. don't sugar coat it because you think you are unwarranted for feeling this way. your feelings are real! no, they are not logical. but they are there for a reason. they DO tell you stuff in order that you will react accordingly. trust your feelings and talk to your T about them. you said "how can i expect him to understand". well guess what? he already understands!!! he knows! so you're just beating yourself up by trying so diligently to "understand". you may NEVER understand it, and that's ok. just go through the feelings ... talk to him about them and don't worry about protecting him. by doing so you are in effect protecting your past abusers. they don't need your protection. you needed theirs.

lastly, i think i sent this to you on a different occassion, but i really think it's relevant in your case, and i hope you read it and take it to heart. from AG's blog:

http://boundaryninjatales.com/...zy-but-really-arent/

therapy most definitely is not easy, but i think it's made easier by not trying to out-smart it, and just bring your feelings in to session with you and overcome the fear of expressing those feelings, and actually expressing them. i'm not quite there myself yet, but i'm working at it.

TAS, try to get out of your head and into your heart, and conquer the irrational fear of expressing what you feel.

P.S. good point TAS

quote:

You project because of the atmosphere you grew up in...always scanning the terrain looking for danger, you are supported, through experience, in not trusting anyone...and then, the way you see things has been constructed through the abuse...over and over again...and then somehow, you are supposed to undo the projection, even though it very much feels like reality.

you didn't learn this stuff from a one-time experience ... you learned it through repetition. so it makes sense that it's going to take repetition to undo this wrong-doing. and nobody said you're "supposed" to undo the projection. nobody has that expectation of you, except maybe you. and the fact that you are working towards this goal is admirable at the very least. keep going. i think you're doing really good work!

Muff: Yes indeed, two different things. Thank you for replying.

CD: I feel like I am bad for feeling what I am feeling towards him. When I do try to "approach" him, he tells me no.

A few weeks ago I asked him if I could look at him with my sunglasses on. He stated he didn't like talking to someone with sunglasses on...he wanted to see me. I explained that it was my way of trying to look at him as he truly is...as opposed to not looking at him, and thinking he is just like them.

I know why he is doing it...he is trying to push me past my comfort zone...but I am so scared to really look at him.

This is so hard. I keep telling myself that I am smarter than this. Apparently not. I should be able to at least understand on some level what is happening and why. I have always trusted my intellect. It won't fail me.

I will definitely read the links and watch what you suggested I hope you are doing well...and thank you for your thoughtful input.

By the way, yes, I am fighting for my life. That is exactly how I feel.

T.

Muff: Yes, those are qualities of an abuser...it goes a little bit further than that...he was born in the same state as the man and his wife was born in the same state as the woman...both abusers...that REALLY messes with me.

(((TAS))) I know projection is hugely hard to deal with. And it feels so unfair to be doing it to a person who hasn't really earned it, even if some of the ways they behave remind us of people who injured us. But, a good T will know exactly what's going on (as yours seems to have picked up on) and won't be personally offended by it.

The others are right in that you cannot think or understand your way out of it entirely. It takes experiencing that this relationship IS different. But the caveat there is that if you sabotage or interrupt that experience, because you get triggered into some sort of fight or flight in the relationship, it will be really hard to take it in and allow it to process through and make changes.

I struggle with this myself. I have accepted for the most part that my T is not THEM. He doesn't act or talk like them really at all. He is one of the most caring individuals I have ever known, and I do believe in his positive regard for me. But, even without quite so many projections (at least to the point where I can ask him about what I fear instead of presuming), it is a very confusing and painful experience. Every time I experience his deep caring, and what he offers me, and try to receive it, there is this giant, "Why?" inside of me. And that is because I built my entire world view and self view to make sense in a toxic, insane environment. So, when you put healthy boundaries, safety, and love, into my head, the program created with "bad code" to survive the past "bad" environment, keeps returning some sort of error, "invalid result." It does not compute. It feels like my brain is going to crash and reboot. It's basically hell.

The only way through that I have found so far, through the projections and through the "why?" that is loaded with the message that I am not human, not worthy, is to take what feels like a terrible risk. And that is to show up. And to talk. About everything. Every single pained reaction and projection. To say to my T, "I still need you to explain it again...why is this OK that you extend yourself to care about me?" And I listen. Not listen to decipher and make sense of it intellectually, but listen to someone else speaking the truth about my intrinsic value, about their experience of me...different from my parents' experience of me as a burden or something to be used.

And every time I lay myself out there to be seen, the horrible shameful person I feel like I am, and T responds with compassion and care and consistency, it forces my brain to challenge the programming. And even though it is terribly confusing to me and I sometimes wish he would just be mean, because then the world would make sense again, slowly, I approach this grief of knowing that there was no reason inside me, no subhumanity, no single thing I could do to make myself into someone worthy of being cared about in the way every child deserves. I was powerless. Helpless. Alone. Unprotected. Unloved or at least loved less than I needed. T has pointed out, all over the world, children experience this sort of thing. I would never imagine there is something wrong with them as I do me.

I've gone off on a tangent here, but the connection I need to make, along the lines of what muff said above, is that there is transference, sure, where you are comparing your T to past abusers. But there is also projection, and that is, you have thoughts and feelings and a basic self-image inside of you about yourself, and when your T does or says things that are difficult for you, because you don't see your own value, you feel like they are his message to you that he does not care, does not value you. But, as we've seen with others on this forum, bad Ts are perfectly capable of throwing away a client. Your T says he will be there. He asks you to be there. He sees that you fear him and isn't offended. I don't think he is the one who feels like you can't be cared about or accepted. Like me, it is probably you who learned to feel that way.

And I'm so sorry for that.





And when you finally realize that you were, as my T and another wise friend have termed it, "poisoned," the grief and rage you will have to expel will be unimaginable. I wish there were another way out except going through it, but I really don't think there is. But...for my part...it is easier with someone there along with you. I was going to write more, but I just triggered a memory (not a bad one, but one that is causing denial that anything bad ever happened) and I'm dissociating pretty badly right now. I may write more later.

Just wanted to say that CD that was a great response and I agree. Also.. that Bob Newhart clip is hysterical. I have seen it before and laughed so hard. And AG's blog is great too.

(((Anon)))) I think you made a great explanation, especially how the brain cannot compute. I tell this to my T a lot. My brain takes it what he says and then spits it out as an "error message". Yet he is ever patient explaining the same stuff ten million times. Some of it is starting to makes sense after 3 years.

I hope you manage that past memory ok. Sending you hugs Anon. You are doing so well.

TAS these ladies are smart. You got good answers from them.

TN

((TAS)) your posts continuously depict someone who is so strong. Sorry if this isn't how you feel...but that is how I see you. You keep going back, keep pushing through the horrors of your past despite all your pain.

I think you got such amazing advice. (wow CD, muff, anon, TN, Blu - your advice is so right on) TAS, I think you have to keep going, keep feeling whatever it is you feel, keep expressing this to T. Your T has shown, time and time again, that he is sticking this out with you. Don't worry about offending him. He's not offended, at least his actions do not suggest he is taking this personally. But you have to do your job...which is to continue to show up and express it. Express it all. Keeping it in to protect your T does not serve you well. You will start to feel so much freer if you can start to let all this stuff out.

You say that you are smart. I have NO doubt you are smart. But this stuff..this emotional journey does not have anything to do with one's smartness or intellect. I am trying to remember this too, as I judge myself for being so stupid all the time in therapy. But it's not about that. It's a different pathway of the brain that has to be rewired. And like everyone has said, that can take a LONG time. How long does not relate in any way to one's intellect.

I am really hoping you can get some relief soon TAS. You are fighting so hard. Your determination is palpable in your posts. Thinking of you.

Hey there,
I am out of town...will be returning this evening.

Thank you so much for your replies. I promise to reply to each of you individually. Thank you for being so kind and generous with your comfort and experience.

T.

Muff: I think the more appropriate question might be: "What will you see in T's eyes?"

Anonymously: Thank you. It is horribly difficult right now and I honestly don't know how to navigate through all of this. I honestly am tired. I am sorry my words don't match the length of your kind reply...I just want you to know I appreciate your thoughtfulness. CD: The thinking vs. feeling, again. I keep telling myself if I can understand WHY I am feeling what I am...then it is okay for me to feel. It is as if I am not allowed one without the other.

TN: You are absolutely right! Very smart ladies, indeed

Blu: It is definitely a bumpy ride. It is interesting you used that analogy. Yesterday, while out of town...map quest led me to this dirt road...parts of it were not even...very hard to travel on...I kept telling myself to go slow...lots of unevenness along the way...but if I went slow I could handle it...then I thought of therapy...

Erica: Thank you for saying I am strong. As for rewiring the brain...when I try to think about this...it's as if my brain turns off...it will take time...I hope I get some relief soon, too

Thanks to all of you All the best!
T.

Note: Please see my PM to you for explanation of edit. Thanks.

on rewiring:
"The Brain that Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge, MD

I am another thinker. I spent years feeling as if I was banging my head repeatedly against a wall, trying to force myself to stop behaving in a certain way (not towards my T, as it happens, but towards my husband). It was projection all the same and horrible to experience.

I over-think. I tell myself that if I can rationalise what is going on then I can figure myself out and change. The trouble is that the deep, feeling part gets left behind and remains exactly where it is; stuck and hurt.

I am curious... when you react to your T in-session, could you talk some more about how he responds? Does he encourage you to talk about how you are feeling towards him, express those feelings? Is he accepting of them?

quote:

He knows. That is the worst part. He knows I see him this way, he told me so last week. I was trying to at least hide it. I wanted to hide it because he doesn't deserve to be seen in this manner.

It is understandable to want to protect our Ts and I think this is also often related to our past experience with parental figures - often it was dangerous and threatening to express how we really felt. This is one relationship where it is counter-productive to try and shield the other person from what is going on though.

Ts spend years working on their personal and professional development, working on how they respond to their clients and have ample resources to protect themselves. Being the recipient of projections is in the job spec - it's going to happen and it is often beneficial if it does and you are able to talk about it honestly together.

One of the things I do is spend ages figuring stuff out on my own and then rock up at therapy to tell my T that I've finally figured out what's been bugging me for the last x many months about our relationship. Think how much misery I could have saved myself if I'd trusted myself to go in without it figured out! It is a stubborn bit of behaviour I wrestle with. Very frustrating!

Muff: I think the more appropriate question might be: "What will you see in T's eyes?"

I probably should have wrote this differently...I worry more about what I will see in his eyes and face than what he will see in mine.

CD: Definitely will check it out.

Mallard: Thank you for the reply.

"I am curious... when you react to your T in-session, could you talk some more about how he responds? Does he encourage you to talk about how you are feeling towards him, express those feelings? Is he accepting of them?"

This is another fiasco. I see/hear meanings he doesn't intend. Last week, I was telling him that people who join the military and are sent off to war, it's a choice they make to serve their country. There is a chance to go to war, even though they may not personally want to, it is possible in their line of duty. I went on to say that children who live in a war zone (trauma and abuse) don't ask for it, don't sign up for it...they don't have a choice.

He then says, "They don't have a right to complain..." I said "No, they had a choice. Children don't." I was so offended by this because he thought I was saying they didn't have a right to complain. I thought it was a very mean thing to say. What I was saying was the difference was in choice. One has a choice. The other doesn't.

I told him I already had cut him off. To stop talking to me because he doesn't understand. This really is exhausting work. He said, "When you clarified, I let it go." I said, "You thought I was saying they didn't have a right to complain. That was not my point at all." He said, "When two people are talking about emotions, misunderstandings can happen." He then went on to tell me my expectations are not realistic in relationships.

Anyway, I have told him at times I feel he is talking in another language and I can't understand him.

I just feel he doesn't understand. Maybe that is projection as well. He tells me to put words to whatever I am feeling. He does encourage me but not in a soothing way. He pushes me because he says I have been stuck.

This sounds very hard to endure, TAS. I'm sorry that you're locked in this struggle. As far as being stuck is concerned, the way I'm inclined to see it is you are both stuck.

When I read your posts, I get this impression of you both struggling against each other. I don't think it is just you - or just him. It's a dynamic you both seem to play a part in.

Someone once said to me "If you want things to stay the same, just carry on doing the things you've always done". I think this holds true for Ts as well as clients.

Ts are experts in the sense that they should have a strong grasp of their own particular school of therapy - but they are not experts in what eventually will work for a client. It's messy and complicated while you bump up against each other, trying to figure out how to form a decent therapeutic alliance. Sometimes you can't manage it.

Explaining to the client what might be going on is only so helpful (you're projecting, for example - my response is often "well, gee, thanks for that. And we deal with it how?") Sometimes people cannot always take enough from being explained to to make their own changes. The change often happens not through any cognitive rational understanding but through feeling secure enough in the presence of the T to consider different
alternatives to life. It is a process that I do not fully understand.

It sounds like, for whatever reason, you guys are having a hard time working out an alliance that feels secure. I don't know if it is helpful, but perhaps going back to basics and talking about that might be a way forward?

Mallard I have been thinking about this for a while. I think I approach him with an attitude of 'You are not going to break me...' I think that is how I relate to him...it's as if I admit I have feelings of any kind towards him, about him...etc., he has the upper hand.

I haven't discussed this with him...just another thing to work through. It seems I am always on the defensive, perhaps when there is not even a reason to be.

Talking to him about feelings about him requires me to be vulnerable...and then when I do that...I have a meltdown because I feel as if I have betrayed myself by opening up. It is convoluted, but very real to me.

I truly think I am a bad person for seeing him the way I do...and I just feel if I can't get past it...I have to go because it is the only answer. I can't keep viewing him in this manner. It's not fair to him.

Thank you. By the way, love your name T.

*nods* showing vulnerability is a massive thing for me also. Despite rationally 'getting' that my T is a safe person, all my protective stuff screams at me on a regular basis that to show vulnerability means handing someone a weapon with which they can hurt me - and why would I be stupid enough to do that?!

She has said that being in T with me has been like being very subtly tested. When I heard that I was, like, OMG I've been rumbled. Run, Run! Because it was absolutely true. I had been trying to work out how safe I felt and thought I was doing a great job of hiding it.

If it's okay to ask, have you had any situations in your life that mirror this at all? Where you have felt a certain way about someone (angry, hurt let down, etc) but then felt guilty about it?

I guess from the outside it's hard for me to understand why you feel so badly about the way you view him. I mean, therapy is such a unique relationship. The echoes of the past almost always show up, whether you want them to or not and neither T or client have much control over what ends up in the room (I don't mean what is said, but what is felt). Feeling some of the powerful echoes of the past means you're in good company with a lot of people here. This kind of feeling is normal - it unfortunately gets amplified in therapy, which can make it so hard to tolerate.

That you can admit that you feel this way... I don't feel that you're terribly awful person at all.

Mallard
(And thanks, I love ducks - one turned up outside my front door the other day, which prompted the username)