But wait, there's more! (Sorry)

So then I'd say a year ago, I started to feel closer to T and better about him and I started to rely on him more. He really leaves great voicemail messages. I was able to call and ask him to leave me a helpful message every once in a while, and he always did. I started to get some of the good relationship ideas like about feeling safe and connected and accepted and so on. Then this summer I had an issue that didn't involve him at all, and he was really there for me and supportive. Then after a while somehow the crisis in the summer led to a sort of spiritual awakening/growth spurt for me. Something definitely changed for the better. I talked to T about it some, but he didn't quite get it all the way, but that was OK.

At some point I felt good enough and more comfortable with having good feelings and enjoying closeness and mutuality with people IRL. I started feeling more desires for connection with T and the ideas I had really hit me hard emotionally. Like one time I was thinking that I could lean on him like a bannister (I imagined the bannister knob from It's a Wonderful Life, actually, like when George is frustrated with the knob because it comes off in his hand all the time, but after he gets his life back when he comes home and touches it and it comes off he kisses it because he is restored to life) and it made me so dizzy I had to sit down in the middle of the woods. Like I would cry and hyperventilate (like in the car or in the grocery store or while hiking)even though I knew the feelings were good. T knew about how I sometimes reacted to good things this way. I started to tell him about these thoughts. (Please do not think that I am saying I wanted to kiss him like George kisses the bannister knob. I've never had any erotic transference with him, not that there would have been anything wrong with that, but it's just not accurate). He liked the idea of seeing him as a bannister. He referred to it later and encouraged it.

One time I was in the grocery store feeling good and I had the feeling that I'd like to do something different with T...just something different...like something different we could do together on purpose after 3.5 years. I sort of felt like it was OK to want that and that we had enough history to sort of celebrate our relationship somehow and that it would feel good to figure out something a little different to do together on purpose. Of course there were a lot of limits. Like we are not friends so we wouldn't be meeting for coffee or going to a movie, and I already knew that he would not be willing to go for a walk outside of his office because I had suggested that on a nice day one time. But I just felt so great thinking of things that we could possibly do. I told him this story of what I was thinking and how I felt at the grocery store and how I really felt emotional about it at the time. He told me that it seemed like a very normal thing to want to do with someone you have a relationship with.

In addition, we had been talking about how I could be more comfortable with wanting things from people. So those ideas continued off and on. Finally one day I was ready to ask him if we could go ahead and do it, think of something different together to do on purpose. I was just brainstorming things and suggested that we could sit in different places or we could each bring something in to share (like a quote or a picture) or draw something or play a game or do some kind of an exercise or whistle or we could both wear blue on that day or something. To be honest, I'm not sure I mentioned all those choices. I know I mentioned sitting differently and a couple of other things. The thing that stuck out, though, unfortunately, was the idea of us both wearing blue (favorite color for both of us).

So I guess I never said directly Can we do that? So then I started to sense something wrong as I had done before when we had issues. He seemed kind of evasive or uncomfortable. I had also asked him in a message, which is not as good as in person, I admit, if he could remember a story about me or our history. Like the first time he thought I was funny or what he thought the first time I called him and bitched him out when I was unhappy with him or if he could tell me a story about some time when I said something that surprised him or something like that. I left it open ended so that he could share whatever he wanted and there would not be the pressure he sometimes feels from me when I ask a question because often I don't like the answer. I was aware of the risk myself, of me not liking the answers when I ask him questions. Often I am disappointed or frustrated. That's why I decided to just ask him to tell me any story he thought of.

So after the message when we met that week, he didn't mention the story thing. So the week after that, I mentioned it. He asked me to explain what I wanted again, so I did. So then he said that he wasn't sure he understood and he wasn't sure if what he had in mind was what I wanted and he was hemming and hawing a lot...so I kind of shut down and said Nevermind. So technically I didn't let him tell me whatever story he had. He didn't try to get past the "nevermind" either, but technically he had something. So I let it go and we met and talked about stuff as usual. Then the idea of doing something different came up again and he wanted to clarify why I wanted it, was it because I felt something was missing in the relationship? I said No, it is becasue I feel like it is good. But it was clear that he was hesitant about that topic, too. Mixed in was the story about the story, too. Even though I had supposedly let it go, at the end of one of our sessions, I gave him an example of a story by telling him just a snippet about how I had quoted him to one of my friends. The next week he said he still wasn't sure what I wanted with the story idea and he asked me if I could tell him the example again. So I shut it down again because I was frustrated and disappointed. Then he told me that he felt trapped. He said "I feel trapped" because he wasn't sure he was comfortable doing the things I said I wanted to do, but he didn't want to hurt me. So I shut down again. I was upset. All I could hear was my therapist telling me that I made him feel trapped, A. And B. that an intelligent trained professional somehow was unable to understand after repeated attempts what I wanted when I asked for a story about me and/or our relationship. I just really meant reminisce, but at the time I didn't think to explain it that way. He suggested that I might be ashamed of my feelings that led me to ask for these things. I told him that I was not ashamed of my feelings but ashamed that the things I want are things that either make therapists feel trapped or are apparently incomprehensible. I think I emailed and texted him that week and tried to explained what I wanted and told him that I didn't mean for the story or the something different to be a big deal, just little things to do and I gave a range of possibilities for both things.
Then later he told me in session that the wearing blue thing had stuck out in his mind and that it was just too intimate for him. Then that set me off because in my mind saying that what I wanted from him was "too intimate" was even worse than him feeling trapped. It sounded like "Ick, please get away from me!"

We have talked about all this stuff for a couple of months in one form or another. He told me that I was right, that he was encouraging me to be comfortable wanting things from him and that he did say when I first mentioned the grocery store do-something-different-together-on-purpose idea he did think it was a normal way to just want to share with someone. But then he said that the problem was that at the time he encouraged me he didn't realize that he would be uncomfortable later with it. See, like how he has been telling me and telling me that he is human. And yes, that people disappoint each other in relationships all the time. And then at another session he added that yes, it is good to ask him for what I want, but that doesn't mean that I will get it. I am crying at the time and he starts to tell me a story about how his dad told him he should ask for more things from him and when he did ask, his dad said No and he was so mad. So on and on with this and it has been upsetting and educational to varying degrees literally for a few months.

At one point I mentioned that if the wearing blue thing and the other things made him uncomfortable, could he have said something like "I'm not sure I'm comfortable with some of those suggestions, but I'll bet we can come up with something together that will work." He said yeah. I guess he was unsettled by the whole thing. He never did that. Instead he followed up "I feel trapped" with "too intimate" the next week.

So I went to see the Consult T again about this. She talked to him because she has done it before and he is very receptive to it. A few weeks after they talked, more of this same issue came up again and this time he told me that he thought that I wanted to wear blue with him because I was trying to merge with him, even though he had never before thought that I was trying to merge with him. He told me that Consult T told him that from how I explained it, it sounded more to her that I just wanted mirroring and connection, not merging.

Well, I don't exactly know what he meant by me wanting to merge with him, but it didn't sound good. The way he explained mirroring sounded like what I had had in mind. I went home and resisted the temptation to look up what merging means.

So, end of story because sorry, he thought I wanted to merge but now he knows that I didn't want that? So now that's all cleared up and we are good? No.

(((Quell))) i will come back and reread everything, but there is alot, and that's okay, but i'd like to reread before i respond. just wanted to say that i read all of this, and you sound pretty level-headed and reasonable. and i think you were pretty implicit that you wanted mirroring, NOT merging. ((((Quell))))

hi quell,

you write really well, i hope you don't mind me saying that i 'enjoyed' reading your post, but it did make me feel for you too. if i may be blunt, your T sounds rather thick sometimes, or a lot of the time. also, any time something points back to him, he sorts of freezes and doesn't know what to do, it makes him uncomfortable, and that shouldnt become the focus of YOUR therapy. it must be really hard because he seems to be a good T in lots of other ways, but this issue (of you wanting something from him/ asking something from him) will obviously come up again and again and he's not dealing with it very well. he doesn't have to do something he's not comfortable with, but can he either focus on HOW YOU FEEL or if he thinks it will be helpful for you, suggest something else he would be comfortable doing.

you sound like the dream patient, insightful, taking risks, coming up with all these wonderful ideas, its such a pity he's not more open to it and doesn't respond well to this.

i'm sorry i dont have any advice or anything useful to say, i just wanted to say that i read your story and i'm on your side (not sure if that's helpful). i hope you can move forward, either by talking to your T more or the consult T.

puppet

So last week I told T that I wanted to take a break for three months. It was the best I could do because although it could be a good idea to just quit seeing him altogether, I just can't bring myself to break up all the way. I am half hoping that by the end of the three months I will be over him and all this. Of course the other half hopes that we can start together again and it will be easier and better.

It has been so hard with him for so long, though. Even with all my admitted transference, there are so many issues from his side too. Just this week on our last day together he said that so often he is perplexed and panicked because although he thinks he is smart and he knows that I am articulate, he just doesn't understand what I am saying or what I want. We met twice this last week, and both times we had really good conversations about our experience with each other. (No it wasn't the nice reminiscing kind, but almost).

The problem now is that I feel so unresolved and I am so confused about what I want to do next and this baggage with him is making me feel like I am in the middle of something and I would rather start with a new T without this long story behind me. But I know I am hypersensitive now about Ts understanding me or misreading me or being uncomfortable with me. T has told me that I am intense. One of the other revelations over the past few months is that he said he has had to work so hard on himself and think about what he does in his work so much and he has learned so much from me. I did ask him if he could tell me anything specific about what he thought or learned, so that what he was saying would feel more real to me, but we never got back to it. He told me that he can "phone it in" with most clients but that he seems to never be able to "phone it in" with me and that has been challenging to him. He has also found it challenging and he feels pressure from me because my "bullshit meter" is so tuned in that it's hard for him and he gets anxious about saying or doing anything wrong.

And then there is the shame and humiliation. I didn't expect that to be what came up after I left him, but that is what I have been feeling. I am sensitive about having asked for things that maybe I am not supposed to expect from a therapist. I also feel that this thing about wanting to wear blue is my new label. I'm the woman who wanted her therapist to wear blue with her.

If the things I wanted are really OK, though, then I feel a little humiliated. So why this big problem?

I know that there is a way to hear things like I heard from my T and not be crushed by them. Like for some people the phrase "too intimate" is not loaded and they would not take it personally. I get that it would be healthy to see it that way. I'm just not there yet.

Meanwhile, I am seeing the Consult T next week. She told me last week that there are therapists who are comfortable doing what I wanted T to do. I think that is what set off the shame. I never planned to be someone who needs a T to do special things with them and be touchy feely and what I see as needy. I feel a little bit like he led me on with that and I am now embarrassed and ashamed and humiliated. I feel like it's not fair because it was never my idea to get to the place of wanting stuff from my therapist and now I am the woman who needs her T to wear blue with her.

I have talked to a friend about what the shame is connected to in my history, and that helps.
I also know that it would be easier to start with a new T if I had quit therapy with him altogether. I also know that I am really sensitive right now and now I am trying to figue out if Consult T is uncomfortable with me or thinks I am too intense or that I wanted weird things from T. Or if she wants to work with me.

So I should talk to her about these feelings next week. I am very glad to have the opportunity to do that, actually. I appreciate therapy overall, very much. I also appreciate this forum and being able to occasionally write all the things I want to write here, so thank you, forum peeps!

Thanks!

Quell

I agree with what Puppet said about your T and there are definitely T's comfortable in what you asked - I didn't think you asked too much at all.

Your T seems unwarm, inflexible and not that aware of himself. You definitely don't seem intense to me and as Puppet said you sound like a dream client. You really do. It seems that the point has come where you seem to have more insight into this process and the relationship that what your T does.

Your T really bothered me. The things you wrote freaked me a bit and my radar would have been up very early on, I think you have been incredibly tolerant and forgiving and yet you still forged ahead with great therapy with him - I wouldn't have had half the qualities, patience and dignity that you have shown.


SD

ahh!! Phone it in? He really said that he phones it in with his other clients? And the fact that he has to think outside the box with you or even think at all makes him anxious?

I'd say it is very good of you to take a break with this T. I'm happy you have another T you can process this stuff with. I'm sorry, but after hearing your T say that, I would leave and not turn back. I know how attached one can get to a T, but seriously Quell, you deserve more than what your T can give. What you have asked for should not make a T anxious. You seem to be articulate and clear in your intentions. I'm not sure where your T's disconnect or misunderstanding is coming from? How and why is he just not getting it?

He does not sound like someone I would want to continue with. I'm sorry for your experience.

((((QUELL)))

Your T reminds me quite a bit of my T in that they have very rigid and definite ideas about therapy. What I've come to understand is that it's because it's the way they need to live. They need things to be black and white and have difficulty with shades of gray in therapy. It also sounds like your T might have an avoidant attachment style and that is what is going to trigger and set off your shame to a greater extent than is necessary. There is actually an article that talks about T's attachment styles and how they interact with their clients. It's all very predictable. It's NOT you.

quote:

I am sensitive about having asked for things that maybe I am not supposed to expect from a therapist.

Since I've read so much about the therapeutic boundaries, I too get worried about asking for things that I'm not supposed to expect from a therapist. However, probably many of their clients do not know about the therapeutic boundaries. We ARE more aware of them than most. I read this stuff and just assume my T has the same boundaries as the ones I read about but the truth is, he may not.

For instance, it was his bday this past week. Last year I cried all week because it would be inappropriate for me to give him a card or a gift. I never asked him if it would okay. I just cried for a whole week. This year, I said "f it". I gave him two very small gifts and decided that I wasn't going to feel bad about it. I also emailed on his bday and wished him a happy bday. I don't know if he appreciated it or not. I hope so. But somehow, I've decided NOT to stress about these rules that someone else made up and sometimes almost seem inhuman.

Between last year and this year, I've decided that while some of the boundaries are for our benefit, other boundaries are for their benefit and comfort level. I also decided that I was going to treat my therapist the same way I would anyone I've known and worked with at this level for six years.

I think you should be able to "play" with all your need in therapy. Tied up with the needs is the shame, which is why we fail to ask for them in the first place and then why we suffer from these awful, intense attachments to our therapists.

quote:

I also feel that this thing about wanting to wear blue is my new label. I'm the woman who wanted her therapist to wear blue with her.

Personally, I find this quite endearing. I hope you can forgive yourself for wanting this.

WAY TO GO LIESE!!!

Reading your post, I found myself agreeing and remembering that I have taken some steps and thought F it about some of the so called rules. Hey, a lot of the rules I MADE UP just so that they were there !!! So who says they are right?

My T tells me that long term therapy like mine (and ours) is different, there are no rules and we are making them up as we go. As long as we keep reviewing and negotiating and discussing.

She has said this same speech for 2 years and I am only NOW actually understanding and embracing it.

SD

(((quell)))

wow, I am sorry you have had to go through all this One thing I can empathize with, is feeling very conflicted about a T, even when they aren't holding up their end of the bargain. When I left mine, I had quite the amalgam of emotions, and it is hard to separate the grief over what good they did in reality, what ideal person you wished them to be, and anger over what they did horribly wrong.

So I want to first say that again, it will be tough to sort through those conflicting feelings. Of course you have very warm feelings of gratitude for him, and attachment to him, even alongside the frustration. But for me there came a point I had to step back and objectively look at the big picture of 'is this more harm than good?' Because the whole point of being there is to cope with harm that already exists, not add more to it.

To be honest, the biggest things that stand out to me are him not remembering things, falling asleep (that line about helping him get more rest made my blood boil!!!! ), and his reaction to you asking for things.

FWIW it sounds as though you have been remarkably patient with him, and willing to go the extra mile to understand both yourself, him, the process of therapy, and what you are trying to accomplish in your work. I see nothing out of line with any of your requests, and I'm truly sorry that you doing such a healthy and wonderful thing of asking for closeness was frankly mishandled, causing you shame. It's very inspiring to me that you have put so much effort into everything you've done.

It is of course your decision how you proceed, and if you proceed with this T. It sounds like he has had moments of helpfulness with you, and been there for you through some difficult times.

But the bottom line is, are you really getting what you need from this situation any longer? Is he showing you that you come first, your needs are the only important ones in the room? Is he showing by his actions that he is willing to put whatever his hangups are to the side to consider perspectives other than his own? Is he as invested in this as you are? And even if he is putting forth effort, does he really 'get it'?

This is your time, your journey. Your finances, blood sweat and tears. I came to a point where I asked myself, if I was having heart surgery, would I trust that process to anyone less than 100% committed to understanding what a serious responsibility they were undertaking, someone who is going to do everything to make sure they understand what's going on?

Sending support and hugs, sorry it's been such a tough road

I just adore how you write Quell!
From a much less articulate lucy...your t kinda gives me the heebeejeebee's I'm sorry.
I really, really think you deserve so much more.

Well, it really helped me to write that all out. It helps to be able to say these things and know I have an audience to hear me, but to receive all of your responses, too, is even more satisfying. I DEFINITELY very much enjoyed reading everyone’s input. Thank you.

CD—a lot to read! I wonder if there is a record for longest post on here. Thanks for reading it all and thinking of me.

Puppet—I am glad you “enjoyed” reading it. Exactly what I like to hear. It’s also why I said the same thing about reading all your responses. Good point about how the issue of me wanting things will come up again and again. That made me feel more assured about what I am doing.

SD—thanks for your support, too. It was good to see your list of adjectives for your assessment of him. Unwarm, inflexible, and not that aware of himself. I think you are right. It helped to see that.

Erica—yeah, lol about phoning it in. Not a good salesperson for himself is he? Also true about not really being able to think outside the box. All of the text on his website is 100% from some therapy website template, including the phrase “I offer a highly personalized approach.” Thanks for saying that I deserve better than that.

Liese—I almost PM’d you after T told me about how much of an impact I have had on him and how he has had to think about what he does and how he has learned so much about himself and his work from me. I thought immediately of you and your T. I didn’t want to gripe about mine too much to you, though, since I know you have found a way to work well with your T. I know what an effort it has been for you and I am SO glad that you finally decided to just do what you wanted for his birthday!! Good job. Keep doing what you want why don’t you?

And thanks for thinking of my wearing blue thing as endearing. Maybe I’ll try to turn the label around in my head and picture myself proudly wearing blue. Maybe I’ll wear blue to my first appointment with new Ts.

Armored Heart—I know that you have been thinking of me through all this. I am really hopeful for you as you meet again with your previous T and even if not her, move on to someone good for you. I have hope for me finding someone great for me, too. I appreciate your perspective, your validation, and your hugs.

Lucy—I like to write and I confess that I like to hear that people like to read what I write, so woo hoo! Thanks.

You all most importantly validated my thoughts and feelings and reactions.

I don’t post often or respond to other people’s posts very much, but I read all the time and it helps me so much. I appreciate everyone who shares on the forum because you help me learn and feel better about myself.

Quell