Mac,

This might be way off base and it might not be a popular opinion, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. If it doesn't fit just let it fly right by and land in a big trash heap somewhere.

First off, I'm sorry that you have experienced these traumatic events in your life. That is something you should never have had to go through. I understand not wanting to start over with someone else. It is so hard to get all of the history out there and learn to trust enough to share these things with a T. If it is possible to repair with your T and he can handle the trauma work then I think staying with him might work. The groups you mentioned sound like they could be good adjunct therapy to working with a T as well.

Having said that, I'd like to reply to a comment that you made:

quote:

ones that focus on the future, not rehashing trauma.

I understand where you are coming from here in terms of group therapy. I don't really think group is necessarily the place to "rehash" the actual trauma, but is a good place to develop skills to deal with what you've been through and receive validation and not feel so alone with it. You said you had already told your T all of your traumas and it sounded like to me you were saying since you had already told all of them that they should be done and over with. I think if the trauma was really resolved that you wouldn't be experiencing the symptoms and issues that you are now. For this reason, I would strongly encourage you to at least interview these T's that are specialized in trauma. It takes more than talking (in my opinion) to truly resolve the trauma and the resistance that you describe in not wanting to work with a trauma T might just be wanting to keep your current T or it might be more about resisting the trauma itself which says to me that it isn't resolved.

Again, I could be wrong here and feel free to completely ignore what I'm saying. I'm just concerned about you and what might happen if you stay with your T who has pretty much said he's in over his head (which is ok if he's willing to learn) or if you decide to just focus on the future and not delve into the trauma.

(((hugs)))

PS: Oh crap, I just realized I quoted you a tiny bit. Let me know if you want me to delete that little snippet. Sorry!

Mac,

I'm sorry that you are going through this messy termination at all. I think that working through trauma takes more than talking about it though we often think and wish that talking about it once was enough. I think that the things that are preventing you (or me) from living life to the fullest or getting the future you want relate to the trauma or more importantly what the trauma experience taught you about the world, yourself, safety, trust, etc.

I think that you can work with a trauma T on things that focus on the future without rehashing the past. The advantage of a trauma T would be that they hopefully would be aware of the common effects of trauma on people's stories about the world. They also might see symptoms or stumbling blocks (resistance to change) differently because their perspective is trauma based.

I certainly don't want to suggest you see a T if that is not what you want to do but I would invite you to keep an open mind about it. You have had a huge destabiling event happen and I'm sure you are still shaking. You don't have to decide anything immediately and you can certainly hold on to the names and numbers for awhile and do nothing.

If this offends or upsets you please accept my apology in advance, I hope something I said helps. I want you to know I am thinking of you.

That's fine what you quoted, STRM. Thank you for your response. I have so much to think about I'm actually glad I still have several more days before I see my T.

When I said that I already told my T all my traumas, I had originally said processed but then changed it because I think he thinks I did… which is one of the things I'm really really confused about. I had no idea it wasn’t okay to process any trauma with him. He always complimented me on how good I'm doing and how hard I’m working. One time I asked him on Wednesday for a Thursday session and told him what I had been doing (I did a book called “Recovering from Post Traumatic Stress, not because I think I have PTSD but I liked a lot of the activities and arts and crafts type stuff in the book) and his text said, “I would be happy to process these feelings with you tomorrow. See you at 10.” And we had a really good session… I guess he lied.

I don’t know, I guess I have to wait and see how I feel after grieving my T and our relationship, but I’m not going to do more classic talk therapy right now, maybe after I finish school, figure out what I’m going to do with my life, and maybe when I’m at least 30 I can start another therapeutic relationship. All three of the therapists he gave me practice client-centered talk therapy, even though they do have trauma on the list along with depression/anxiety, self-esteem, communication skills and more.

Thank you for your response also, Incognito, I'll think about what you said.



The first therapist has tons of stuff about Christian Counseling on her website... ummm my T totally knows thats not what I would want. I think he didnt even actually look at these people. When I was asking some really basic questions about them in my session, like "are they old or young" he kept saying he doesnt remember.

Mac,

When I had a really awful ending with my old T, I looked into and did group therapy and it really helped me. I wasn’t ready to trust yet. Being around Ts and other clients struggling with trauma really helped me get through the grief, and how the grief stirred up old hurt and the trauma itself. It helped me trust Ts too. I didn’t expect that to happen, but it did. After awhile, I was able to trust my regular T in a new way, one I don’t think I would have been able to do without the group therapy. In the end, it helped me trust her individually. That was just my experience - but I don't think you are totally off or wrong in considering group therapy right now.

One good and hard and challenging thing about therapy is that there are a lot of ways to reach the same goals. The hard thing is that different ways of reaching that goal will work for different people.

Part of healing is taking back your voice, your say. You have a say in your health!

I think considering your T’s input is important. But if you are not ready to do what your T suggested (or required) then you are not ready. It may or may not even be the right thing.

Is the T that is suggesting/required this the same T that you are in limbo a little bit with right now? That is terminating with you right now? If it is, it might be more tempting to ignore your own sense of what you need right now and do whatever it takes to make that relationship work. That happened for me with my old T. It ended up not helping me or the T. In the end, it should be a mix of considering the T’s input and considering what you feel you need, AND what you are READY for.

There is another way to look at this too. The intent of your T was probably to get more help outside of what they felt they could provide. Your T saw very accurately that you are struggling with trauma, and it’s really appropriate to consider someone who specializes in it. It may or may not be the right thing, but it’s a good thing to consider as an OPTION, and a possibility of something that could help. And it doesn’t HAVE to be one of the Ts your T listed. Most T’s that do sexual assault groups have experience in trauma. If you are struggling to trust, a group might be a good way to work on various trauma related issues, without requiring so much trust in a T, and giving you more room to heal and grieve what isn’t working in T, and figure out what will.

This part is tricky to say – but if there is any pull for you to call the Ts just because your T wanted it, and you want the relationship to work, whatever it takes, or you are doubting yourself because it didn't work - and I don't know if you are… this might be a good way to do something that meets what your T intended, and in a way that fits what your heart and mind might be telling you that you need. If there is any possibiliy you would stay with your T, it might also be a good way to tell if your T is willing to consider other ways of meeting the same goals – and if your T isn’t, as hard as this is, it actually would make it an even better thing that you are moving on past that T.

It also would be a great way to have support for things you are struggling with as you also go through the termination and the grief that comes with it.

If I remember right, I think you are younger… and I want to say that you are wise beyond your years to even consider these questions and reach out for support and feedback and to keep plugging away in this process. (Heck, even if you were 90 you would be wise beyond your years!) You are doing so much good work even in the middle of tough stuff. Keep hanging in there…

~ jane

Thank you for your thoughts Jane, and thank you for the compliments. That was really nice of you to say that I am wise beyond my years. I feel so stupid and young and childish and I feel like it was ridiculous to think that I could handle therapy at this point in my life. I don’t know why I even attempted this; I should have just gone to college and worked part time, lived my life, partied, and did normal things for normal teenagers. Instead I tried to “change”. Whatever.

Mac, I don't know if it helps, but I often wonder if I'm cheating myself out of my college years by going through therapy and drudging all of this stuff up. I also wonder if I'm stupid for going through therapy now, especially because it has definitely made keeping up with my classes a lot harder. But if I didn't go through therapy, I'd be lying to myself for many more years - I'd be convincing myself that I'm fine, I have no problems, I am the only cause of my problems, etc. I wouldn't really be living my life at all, I would be living what I *thought* should be my life. Granted, I'm still not sure if that's what I'm doing, but it feels like I've kind of gotten myself on the right track. At least as far as a major goes.

For the record, I also think you are very mature and it's a breath of fresh air. I think so many people go along with what they think they're supposed to do at their age that they don't even try to figure out who they are. I'm sorry for how horribly your T has treated you. I know that you know what is best for you. You really have amazing strength.

Big hugs, Mac.

Hi Mac,

I tried to delete a message I posted because I just found the thread on your termination. I hope it deleted. I am just as dumbfounded and outraged as the others. I don't have anything profound to add. It does sound like you are a really strong, intelligent person and you are thinking much more clearly than I would be in the same situation. You sound like you have your wits about you despite all the craziness around you. And, that's a really good thing.

All I can say is it would be a good idea to get help from another therapist to help you process all this termination stuff with T. It would be smart to choose someone who works wtih trauma but IMO, I'd forget about the trauma stuff, per se, for now and just focus on getting the support you need with this current situation.

(((((HUGS, REALLY BIG HUGS)))))

Liese

MAC, I'd just like to throw some of my feelings and opinions in here for what they are worth...

First, I think you are doing a really good thing by doing therapy at your age. I wish I had done it much much sooner. Right now I'm grappling with the feelings that it is too late for me. I also think that by working through some things now and becoming more self-aware you will perhaps learn to lead a fuller more peaceful life.

Something else.... the current situation you find yourself in IS a TRAUMA. Your T abandoned you in a harsh way and that causes TRAUMA. A person is more likely to experience further trauma when they have trauma in their past history. So, I do think you need to find a new T to at least... at the very least... help you work through this new trauma. You may be in shock right now and not fully experiencing all the effects and emotions of the abandonment and when it does hit you it would be good to have a T in place to help you process it. I told my newT that I didn't know if we could even work together beyond my abandonment trauma caused by oldT. I could not think that far ahead and I desperately needed relief from the horrible grief I was in. BUT I did take the time to find a T I could be comfortable with if I did change my mind. I think that my newT is working out so well that I find myself feeling able to go on with the therapy and continue to work with him on the other stuff.

My last point is that I thought I told oldT all my trauma too. In fact, the last month with him I divulged a big trauma and then announced to him... that's it I have told you everything. Now you see you HAVE done all the trauma work with me and there is no more to worry about. So you can stay being my T. I don't need a special trauma T. Well, it does not work that way. Trauma gets processed slowly and needs to be talked about more than once and integrated to the point where it does not adversely affect your life and you don't resort to unhealthy distractions and coping mechanisms to avoid the unresolved trauma.

Mac I think you are a smart young woman and you will eventually be okay but the recovery from this is not easy and is not fast. I wish you the best and if I have said anything to upset you I am sorry. I am only speaking from my first-hand experience. If I can help in any way please let me know.

TN

quote:

First, I think you are doing a really good thing by doing therapy at your age. I wish I had done it much much sooner.

I totally agree with this statement by TN.
I wish I had done some therapy 30 years ago and then maybe I wouldn't be in the position I'm in now. I have repeated some of the same behaviors causing the same trauma and situations for myself over the years.

Holding On

Thank you for your thoughts Holding On, TN, Liese, and Kashley. Totally hating myself for trying therapy, but I’m trying to read your words.

TN-

quote:

My last point is that I thought I told oldT all my trauma too. In fact, the last month with him I divulged a big trauma and then announced to him... that's it I have told you everything. Now you see you HAVE done all the trauma work with me and there is no more to worry about. So you can stay being my T. I don't need a special trauma T. Well, it does not work that way. Trauma gets processed slowly and needs to be talked about more than once and integrated to the point where it does not adversely affect your life and you don't resort to unhealthy distractions and coping mechanisms to avoid the unresolved trauma.

What I'm wondering about this is if your T ever said that he's not a trauma T or doesn't have experience in working with trauma or whatever, or did he just go along with it?

And I know I have not fully processed my trauma at all, I was just expressing how physicall and mentally worn out I am, and I cant handle telling another T about any trauma for a long time.

Mac... of course you are physically and emotionally worn out. This was a traumatic event for you. Do you have anyone IRL to help you with this? Does anyone know what happened with your T?

And the answer to your question is yes. My oldT mentioned now and then that "this" meaning working with a patient with complex PTSD, was not his area of expertise. I told him that it was not a problem for me because the relationship we had was solid and good and I was improving and getting better. Then he would say things like he was going to get up to speed on trauma, or he was going to step up to the plate or he was going to work on getting familiar with what he needs to know to help me... but he never did. I gave him books he never read, I gave him on - line resources, I gave him notices of seminars in our area, I gave him my trauma CDs by John Briere. He never stepped up to the plate on this and in the end...well he just started yelling at me that I needed to go to a trauma T. My newT says psychology is psychology and all Ts should have a working knowledge of trauma and that I was not in any way an extreme case where I needed specialized therapy in any way. In fact, he says I'm so easy to work with and he has NO idea what was going on with oldT but he suspects that this was his excuse to cover up feeling threatened by my knowledge, by feeling too emotionally involved with me, or dealing with whatever countertransference he was not handling well.

TN

My mom knows, and she's pissed and wants to sue him... she really didnt help my intense guilt in how much money i made them waste on my therapy. But she was really helpful with the cops, because i called her while they were there and she talked to one of them and told them that they can leave because i am not suicidal, just traumatized.


So I guess we did have two different experiences in that but they were both equally confusing. My T never hinted for a second that he didn't work with trauma patients/I couldn't process trauma with him/he was out of his expertise- nothing. Every time we did any trauma work he really did seem knowledgeable. One thing I might bring up is that I wished I had known from the start that I cannot process trauma with him, and the first time our therapy turned to that (which was probably like a year ago) I wish he could have told me that he doesn’t work with trauma, instead of accepting and encouraging it. I totally hear what you are saying with being an extreme case and needing specialized therapy… I don’t have any type of PTSD or any CSA, I really don’t even think my traumas are severe at all, and I thought (and my T always told me) that I was healing and processing very well. Ugh, confusing!

DF-
Thanks for the suggestion on negative changes. I am feeling like right now that all progress I made with my T is gone. I dont believe a single thing he ever said to me. I dont know how long that will take to feel differently? We'll see.

Hey Mac,

That's so great that your Mom is on your side!!! I am so glad you have her support. That has got to help at least a little.

How are things today? Any luck finding a new T?

Mac,

That's great your mom is on your side and has your back. I know its hard not to see your therapy with T as a waste of money given how it ended, but I do think its possible that it was beneficial to you at the time despite how it ended.

Liese, no I wont be finding a new T right now.


The T that I saw once never emailed or called me back yesterday, and he still hasnt today. Even if he does I dont really care anymore, the only reason I called him was to have a little support right after getting home, and he was the only person who already knew a lot about my T and our relationship so I wouldnt have to explain as much. Oh well.

((((((MAC)))))))

Wish there was something I could say that would be helpful. Just here and listening is all I can think of.

((((((HUGS))))))

Liese

(((Mac))
I'm sorry that T didn't call you back. I know that when I feel like I don't care anymore, it usually means I've stopped letting myself care as a protective mechanism. I think it is a good defense mechanism. I also wish there was something I could do to help. I am thinking of you and wishing you the best.
Di

No email from that T. At least I really dont care anymore. Not in a bad way, I just dont need him to talk to.

I overnighted Resolving Impasses in Theraputic Relationships and i'm "enjoying" it. I put that in quotes because I'm not really enjoying it, it’s painful to read, even though it's given words and validation to feelings that where there but I had no words to explain. Thank you, TN, for the recommendation

I think this quote explained what I was feeling at the beginning of this thread with not knowing if I have my own say in my health or if I have to follow my T's demands of seeing the 3 T's he gave me: "Therapists often unwittingly put patients in a dilemma, asking them to renounce infantile wishes for perfect caretaking and bear the realities of adult life, at the same time asserting with parental authority convictions about what is best for them."

One second he was saying, “You knew this relationship was going to come to an end. It was professional all along.” And the next second its, “You don’t have a choice about contacting these therapists.” WHATTTT! That’s messing with my psych... Am I a child who must obey you or an adult who doesn’t need their parental figure anymore?

When I read this I just got a bodily feeling of comfort: “I have learned that each of us as a therapist, even with adequate ongoing consultation, no matter how well respected, well trained, or experienced we are, can behave unconsciously, either because of life circumstances or because of who we are, in ways that profoundly wound our patients.” That sounds nice...

It’s only the weekend and one day till my session…



I just realized i'm probably the only one who that quote sounds "nice" too! It would have freaked me out before all this!

Hi Mac, I'm glad you got the book. I had been mulling over recommending that you order it because it has been the only real resource I could find that addresses abandonment and why these things occur. Interestingly enough, what the author does is consult with the clients (and the Ts if possible) and that is exactly what you did... you called in a consultant to help you with an impasse but in your case it got you abandoned by your T. Obviously he was threatened by another T knowing what was happening in your therapy with him.

There are some passages that really resonated with me in my situation and how I felt. I will try to post some here soon. I have had to put the book down at times and take a break because some of the stuff is very triggering to me, even now.

I'm glad you are reading it though and i hope it gives you confidence for your session next week.

TN

quote:

Interestingly enough, what the author does is consult with the clients (and the Ts if possible) and that is exactly what you did... you called in a consultant to help you with an impasse but in your case it got you abandoned by your T.

I know, exactly what I am going to talk to my T about on Tuesday.

I would like to hear your favorite passages. I think the only reason why I'm not having a mental breakdown while reading this book is I'm trying to stay in a very analytical and logical state, at least till Tuesday because I need to be able to communicate to him clearly and logically for at least the first part of the session to clear up any miscommunications.

My HOPE is that we can talk clearly left brain to left brain on Tuesday, and then I can have another session where I can sob my eyes out, be angry and hurt, and feel guilty and abandoned, betrayed and heartbroken. But WHO KNOWS what my T is thinking!