River,
I'm sorry, I really get everything you're feeling because I've struggled with all the same feelings. If you can figure out a way to take a break, please, please share. I'd like to figure that one out myself.

You know what I'm going to say, right? The only thing to do is talk about it with your T. Your feelings for her are causing a fog in the therapy because they're hampering your ability to talk about what you need to. You can start by telling her just how scared you are to talk about what you need to talk to her about.

You're living in fear right now and to quote "Strictly Ballroom" "A life lived in fear is a life half lived." You deserve to be free of that. And I'm am sure that your T will understand and be able to reassure you so that you will feel freer to speak. How you're feeling is normal and natural. This is a person vastly important to you, that you are scared to lose, so you edit yourself. But don't you see that was the problem in the first place? That you weren't allowed to be who you were? That your emotions and feelins weren't welcomed or understood? The relationship with your T is your chance to experience something different. A place where you can express ALL of your feelings and ALL of who you are so you can learn that all of you is acceptable and worthwhile. I've known you long enough to know that who you are is a wonderful person, who need have no fear about showing herself or being seen.

And you could stop spending so much energy editing yourself. Sorry, I know I sound like a broken record, but I do believe it would be for the best. And please know that I say it because I care, not because I am insensible to the pain you're in or the horrendous difficulty of doing what I'm suggesting.

AG

quote:

I am just tired and want a break.

River

Do I ever understand this! The thing is though, if you take that break, it won't make those intense feelings go away. It may just even make them more intense. All of the things you are saying are so normal! And yes, I know that may not make you feel any better. But, I've been there and still am. My T doesn't bring it up either. (So, how do you feel about me today? Still in love with me? Want me with all your heart?........ ) But she does listen to everything I say and when I bring it up and she sees that I'm struggling, she helps me along and things come out of my mouth that truly surprise me. Your T is probably waiting for you to open the door. And when you do, you won't believe the relief. You don't have to say it all at once. Just let out a little. Start by telling her you have some strong feelings about her and you don't know how to start to tell her. It sounds like you have a really great T and she will be happy that you have finally brought it up. None of this is easy and it is all very scary. It is up to you whether you take a break or not, but do you think that will really resolve your feelings?

I hope this helps. Now that I look back at it, it sounds a little preachy. It wasn't meant to be.

PL

quote:

Start by telling her you have some strong feelings about her and you don't know how to start to tell her.

Oh I have told her - more than once - there is no mystery in the room as to what I feel about her. And even though we have talked about it I don't feel much relief. I guess I am not done talking about it but I get so nervous every time I bring it up. I would rather endure the questions I think. But even when I tell her it is easier for me to answer questions she still doesn't bring it up.

The relationship still confuses me even though she has tried explaining all of this to me several times. I am still confused because I haven't been able to ask all of the questions I want to ask yet because of being afraid of the answers.

Oh, and by "break" I didn't mean a break from seeing her or therapy but just a break from the intensity of the feelings I have about our relationship.

quote:

Anyone else had any success taking a break from intense, almost-obsessive type feelings for their T? (Or I guess anyone else if applicable?)

River, my direct answr to that is no. It seems to be picking up velocity the more time goes on. But I CAN say that I HAVE succeeded in breaking through the beariers of intense fear of beleiving she is going to leave me because she is disgusted with my neediness and transference. I so want her to like me and LOVE me and I I think I have finally learned that no matter what I say and no matter what I do she will never stop liking me and never stop loving me. It was by revealing the most shameful experiences and emotions that finally proved it this to be true.

You've shared enough about your T River that I truly beleive you have the same discovery waiting for you.
JM

quote:

Oh, and by "break" I didn't mean a break from seeing her or therapy but just a break from the intensity of the feelings I have about our relationship.

When you figure this one out, could you tell me how you did it? I would be in awe of you!!

PL

quote:

I HAVE succeeded in breaking through the barriers of intense fear of believing she is going to leave me because she is disgusted with my neediness and transference

I have never been afraid of her trying to get rid of me but I do fear hitting the proverbial brick wall that keeps the relationship at a safe professional level. I don't know exactly what I want or need or how much of it I need and I don't know exactly what it is she is willing to give or how much. I've tried asking but it always seems so vague. Human interactions in general are a mystery to me and I need illustrated step-by-step instructions to navigate through relationships with any confidence at all. I want to ask her for some very specifics answers without being disappointed by how little there probably is really available.

I am sure you are familiar with the saying "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but teach him how to fish and you feed him for life." I guess what I want to know is therapy just about learning how to fish? I don't learn well on an empty stomach so is is possible to just get some actual fish first so I can then start to learn how to fend for myself? It just seems that any time I try asking for something from her what I get is a reason why I should learn how to do or be this for myself. I guess I thought before that I might get some fish first but I think I misunderstood or imagined it something.

quote:

Sleep is the only thing that seems to keep my mind off of it for any length of time.

Me too. But then sometimes I even dream about her.

In re-reading my last post it seems that I am angry too.... oh she'll love that! T's love it when you get angry with them. Probably won't last until Monday though.

quote:

In re-reading my last post it seems that I am angry too.... oh she'll love that! T's love it when you get angry with them. Probably won't last until Monday though.

Ok River, would you stop reading and publishing my thoughts?

I was so angry at our last session and I really took it oout on her and YES, she did seem to get a charge of delight in my being able to do that. She finally tapped into that unearthed anger. But I so hear the "Probably won't last until Monday though." -sad truth sometimes huh? But things have a way of working their way in as they need to.

quote:

Anyone else had any success taking a break from intense, almost-obsessive type feelings for their T?

No. I thought since I wasn't seeing my son's former T anymore it would get easier but it really hasn't. Every time I do see her all the feelings come flooding back.

quote:

Human interactions in general are a mystery to me and I need illustrated step-by-step instructions to navigate through relationships with any confidence at all.

I know exactly how you feel. It would be so much easier if they just gave us a manual with all the rules and boundaries all laid out for us. Does your T know this about you?

I think it is possible for you to get your fish, maybe you already have gotten a little? You can talk to her about things you didn't think you ever could. She has accepted you and your feelings regarding her. You don't have to worry about her trying to get rid of you. And, you are able to be angry at her (and maybe talk to her about that?). I know you want more, but sometimes we have to take the crumbs when we can get them.

Have you asked your T about her boundaries? I was always afraid to ask my son's T, because I didn't want to hear them either. I really wish I knew what they were, especially now. I don't know if I could really be getting more from her than I am now and I'm just missing out because I haven't asked, or if this is really it.

OW

quote:

Have you asked your T about her boundaries? I was always afraid to ask my son's T, because I didn't want to hear them either. I really wish I knew what they were, especially now. I don't know if I could really be getting more from her than I am now and I'm just missing out because I haven't asked, or if this is really it.

You're absolutely going to hate this answer.
But the pain of NOT knowing is probably much worse than the sting of hearing the definite answer and then being able to accept where you stand and where you DO belong.

Boundaries can make me feel like such a dissatisfied child kicking a can down the street, but before I know it I see a bunch of kids at the end of the block motioning me to come play ball where I do belong.

I think we're better off knowing and we may have to hear it repeatedly, but that's ok.

quote:

But the pain of NOT knowing is probably much worse than the sting of hearing the definite answer and then being able to accept where you stand and where you DO belong.

JM

I have been thinking about this for quite some time. I want so badly to ask her for a hug, but I'm afraid of the answer. I think I need to ask her what her "general" policy is, so I don't take the answer personally. Which is something else I am working on.

I agree with you that knowing the answer is better than yearning for something I may never be able to have. I just need to get up the courage to ask. I know that she will handle it in a gentle way, I just don't know if I can handle it.

PL

quote:

I have been thinking about this for quite some time. I want so badly to ask her for a hug, but I'm afraid of the answer. I think I need to ask her what her "general" policy is, so I don't take the answer personally. Which is something else I am working on.

I agree with you that knowing the answer is better than yearning for something I may never be able to have. I just need to get up the courage to ask. I know that she will handle it in a gentle way, I just don't know if I can handle it.

PL

Hi PL....

I would encourage you to ask her, and ask her why or why not. Make sure you understand it clearly. If it is her policy to have no physical contact with her clients it is far better to hear it than to experience it. I say this because I actually did it. BIG mistake. BIG disappointment. I will NEVER do it again!!!

I didn't do it because I was yearning for her to hold me...but because I wanted to feel closer to her and deepen my trust level with her. And because I have been with her for so long it felt incredibly unnatural to not have any physical contact with her.
Well...she had absolutely NO response to my giving her a hug. She was as stiff as a board and in no way returned my gesture. (A gesture that took enormous courage and all my ego strength) I am still trying to regain some of that back.

It has effected my trust level with her. And I fear that she is going to hurt me further.
This is clearly a backfire for me...and I suppose for her too. I don't think she expected me to react that way.
What she said to me was this: "this is the gift I am giving you." (The gift of not touching me, because I had been so harmed by touch.) She was clearly working from a transference point of view...I was not. For me...it had nothing to do with a transference. My response was something like this: "well...we seem to be giving each other gifts that neither one of us really wants." At that point I tried to laugh it off. But it wasn't funny...it was very painful and has caused me much damage.

I don't feel that she handled the situation very well...this is an area where I think that therapy needs to meet the needs of the individual and not follow a general policy. It was meant to bring us closer together (nothing more...nothing less)and it has only driven a wedge between us. I still have trouble with it. And wonder how I might have done it differently. I basically knew she didn't want to touch me...but I had to test it...for whatever reason...there are many reasons.

I guess my main point is that it hurt me and damaged my trust level with her. It also embarrassed and shamed me. It seemed to confirm all those terrible things I believe about myself. I am not worthy...I am ugly...I am dirty, untouchable and bad to the very core. This is where I took the rejection. So it became a transference issue for me. I'm angry about that...it was not a transference until she made it one...this is probably why she responded the way she did. She does seem to love to work transference. It is also possible that I knew this was going to happen and that I wanted to hurt myself.
I am not sure how to repair this damage. It is a nagging pain for me that I am unable to shake. And it is a part of the reason I am considering terminating with her after 18 years of work.

Be very careful around this issue, it really depends on the T and how she handles it. But I can tell you that it can hurt in ways that you can't imagine. I feel incredible vulnerable just writing this post. hmmmmm....
Anyway....I can tell you not to wait 18 years before you work on this!

SD

Thanks SD

I have been with her for over 2 years and it just seems so odd that we have never had any physical contact what so ever. I guess in thinking about this, it parallels my relationship with my mom. We cared very deeply for each other, but never hugged or kissed. I imagine that maybe that happened when I was very young, but I really have no memories of it.

I'm trying to get up the nerve to ask her at my next session, but I know I have to word it in a way that it does not become a rejection of me. If she says it is her policy, I will still be disappointed, but I will be better able to move on without all those feelings about myself that you mentioned you are feeling. I can so understand the way you feel.

She knows how strong my rejection/abandonment issues are, so I guess it would be interesting to see how she responds. I'm afraid that it will also go into a conversation about my feelings about it. That could be good or bad.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It gives me a lot to think about. I just know that I have to resolve this sometime soon because it is starting to consume me. It distracts me while I am in session and I guess it would be best to get it off my plate entirely.

PL

Just want to jump in here. I saw my T for just over a year when we finally had real touch. It would drive me crazy that I couldn't touch him. I felt that I needed to touch him just to know tht he was really real. We had a few "hand bumps" over the year... like one time when he handed me a bottle of water and other time when he dropped something and I picked it up and handed it to him. And those very brief touches were like an electric bolt. Then one time while sort of reviewing the relationship... this was probably about 10 months into it I remarked how he never even offered to shake my hand when I met him (at my son's session) and I thought at first he was a very cold person. At the time I had no idea about boundaries etc. And he told me he had no real hard and fast rule about handshaking and that if someone offered he would shake their hand. Hmmm....

So at the holidays in December I was walking out after a session w/my son and at the last moment I turned around and offered him my hand and said "I hope you have a very happy holiday". He took my hand without hesitation and smiled at me and wished me the same. And it was not so much a handshake as he just held my hand for that moment. There was no up and down shaking part just my hand in his. His hand felt warm and safe and really good. That feeling stayed with me for a long time. He never mentioned it and we never talked about it. But I have never offered my hand again either. After one really brutal session where I had a sort of re-experienced trauma I so longed to touch him again or have him hold me just to sort of ground me before leaving the office but alas that did not happen.

There is a Ph.D. T who writes a lot about boundaries and about the role of touch in therapy that I found very interesting. His name is Zur and here is a link to his website:

http://www.zurinstitute.com/articles.html

and to an article on touch in therapy:

http://www.zurinstitute.com/touchintherapy.html

BTW, you will note that my avatar is a handshake

TN

quote:

There is a Ph.D. T who writes a lot about boundaries and about the role of touch in therapy that I found very interesting. His name is Zur and here is a link to his website:

http://www.zurinstitute.com/articles.html

and to an article on touch in therapy:

http://www.zurinstitute.com/touchintherapy.html

BTW, you will note that my avatar is a handshake

TN

Hi TN...

I've appreciated your posts very much. You write very well.

I found this website too...quite some time ago. I even printed out the VERY long article to take to my T. Well...I still have it. It seemed insignificant after I actually made "first contact" LOL...(what a bonehead!)

I've been thinking about digging it out of my files and taking it to her. The "hug" issue is still bothering me quite a bit. I could feel it in my last post. I feel like I should just shake it off and go on. But I've tried....and it won't go away. It is still an issue between us. I am most miffed about the fact that I am sure that it was not coming from a place of transference with me. And now that is all it is about. Why can't some things be taken at face value and left there?

SD

Hi SD and thank you for the compliment.

I read about your experience with the hug and was frankly shocked that your T reacted that way. After all you had known her a very long time and I would also think it unnatural never to have any touch w/her for all that time. I'm so sorry you suffered such hurt over this. I would feel exactly the same way. I would immediately think that I was so horrible that my T couldn't bear to touch me. It would just confirm everything bad that I feel about myself, while a brief, non-sexual hug would imply that I was okay and worth hugging and that my past had no bearing on who I was and what my T thought of me.

I have not gotten past the handshake stage with my T but I have seen him high-five my son and squeeze his shoulders affectionately so I know he does use touch in therapy... at least with the kids. I guess adult women are a different story LOL. I often thought to tell him that I would not be adverse to non-sexual touch if he felt that it would be appropriate at the time. A touch on the shoulder or pat on the back would be very calming and comforting to me if I was emotionally upset/crying.

As you mentioned, they really do not spend enough time on this in graduate school and it should be addressed more thoroughly.

TN

Thank you HB for the kind words.

TN

quote:

The idea of talking about something is always worse in my head than the reality turns out to be and i hope it is like that for you.

HB

You hit the nail on the head right here. (or maybe the nail hit me on the head ) Anyway, this is so true and my T and I had some of this conversation just last week. It has to do with my fixation of what people think of me, always thinking that they are thinking the worst. She reminded me that many times I come to therapy and project what I believe she will think about something I'm saying or feeling, and she is nowhere in the ballpark of what I thought. Does that make sense? She always says, "Well thank you for letting me know what I am thinking." Of course then she laughs and tells me that she is not thinking that at all.

I'm trying to muster up the guts to ask this. I have played several scenarios in my mind, actually many more than several. I guess I won't get it out of my head until I do it. I really do trust her and I know she won't make me feel bad about asking. I just know I'll feel bad if it is not the answer I want, but at least I'll have an answer.

Sometimes I get so obsessed with things!!!

PL

quote:

surprisingly the judging and criticising turns out to have had a lot more to do with me than him.

Oh yeah! I can relate to this. A few weeks ago my T asked me a question, wondering if I thought about myself in a certain way. I answered honestly and said that I didn't see myself that way. Well that evening my mind went crazy and I called and left her a VM asking her if that is how she sees me. If she thought other people think that of me because that is not how I want to portray myself. When we talked, she said she should have known better than to ask me that question. What she meant is that I have a track record of assuming that others will judge me as harshly as I judge myself.

I think I really need to ask her. My brain says, "Why would she want to hug me?" But my heart wishes she would. Which is another issue I am dealing with. I have this habit of wishing for things in a relationship instead of asking for them. Then I get ticked off when the other person can't read my mind and give me what I am wishing for.

I hate that one issue always leads to another. Sometimes I think there will be no end to the issues I have stored inside me.

PL

quote:

I have this habit of wishing for things in a relationship instead of asking for them. Then I get ticked off when the other person can't read my mind and give me what I am wishing for.

PL... I do this ALL the time. I sometimes drop veiled hints about what I want and when the other person does not pick up on it I get angry with them. It comes back to the problem of not being able to ask for what I want because I never learned to do this as a child. This need was never met as a child and sometimes if I tried it was met with harshness or punishment and so I just learned it was better not to ask. In fact, I was praised to others by my parents for not asking for anything. As in "my kids NEVER ask for anything!" As if that was something to be proud of and it just reinforced my belief that it was wrong to ask. This is a huge part of what I am working on with my T, who is ever patient with me. And when I do ask for something and he gives it ... we look at how it was the right thing to do and that if I didn't ask I would be sitting there suffering.

As I look back onto my life this not being able to ask damaged my life in a lot of ways. So many times not being able to ask for help (especially) caused me to try to do it all alone and there were times that I messed up because I didn't have the tools to do it all alone. Sometimes ya just need some help with stuff!

As for the hug... I think you could ask your T if she has a policy on hugging without making it so personal. That may be easier for you. But as a wise friend once told me "don't ask unless you are prepared for a no". I am not prepared yet for a no so I have not asked.

Good luck

TN

quote:

In fact, I was praised to others by my parents for not asking for anything.

TN

My T and I have talked about this at length. My mom especially always praised me for being so "tough" and being able to do things on my own from the age of 2. When I was 3 my mom had hepatitis and I had to take care of her during the day because my dad had to go to work. People were so afraid of getting it from her that no one would come into the house. I made her peanut butter sandwiches for lunch every day and entertained her. I always remember feeling that I could and should do everything on my own.

Since my T really understands this, and knows about the wishing thing, I think she will put 2 and 2 together if I ask her this. Do I want her to say no? Absolutely not! But the wishing is killing me and I think I just need to get past it. I'm actually telling myself that she will say no. Therefore, if she says yes, I will probably freak out and then get major anxiety about that! There is just no easy answer in any of this therapy stuff is there?

PL

quote:

Originally posted by True North:
As you mentioned, they really do not spend enough time on this in graduate school and it should be addressed more thoroughly.
TN

This ^ is why it is called Gradual School!


Thanks TN...and everyone....

It's nice to know that SOMEONE understands...and feels the way I do. I've been afraid that what I did was totally inappropriate and off base. When in reality (I know)...it was not. I have even asked her if she had a personal issue with casual touch. She did flinch a bit...so I may have hit a nerve there. hmmm.... Anyway...she denied having such an issue, which I thought was really strange. After all...I had just offered her a very convenient out, and she did not take it. OK...so she is either really dumb, wants to work out the problem, or just can't admit that she has any problems. hmmmm....I don't know. And I don't know if she will work it out with me or someone else...but I do hope she eventually understands what happened between us. And...if I live long enough...who knows...maybe I'll hear about it.

SD