LL,

I will have to come back to this later as I'm going to be heading out to T, but wanted you to know that I read and I hear what you are saying.

Hugs,

LL

So it goes on...poor you

quote:

The experience with the T that I talked about in my unbelievably bad session thread has really damaged me infinitely more than I first realized in so many ways. Because of her (that she rejected me as a client) I’ve totally lost the belief I had that a T is there for ME, to help ME, which let me go in and feel that I could be honest about things and not be so afraid that I was saying/doing something bad and wrong,

I really think that was so damaging for you, it was a horrendous experience that must have knocked your confidence and your trust enormously. But you so mustn't blame yourself LL, what you experienced was someone else acting badly, that doesn't make you wrong or too bad to ever find a T for you.

You should be able to say what yyou think and feel - that is the whole point of therapy surely? The T should be professional enough to deal with that and in a way expect it. So if you can't be yourself and be totally honest in therapy - then where can you?

Oh am sorry about the ex-T meeting too. It sort of rubs salt into the wound a bit doesn't it?

quote:

I’ve totally negated myself by going crawling back. No, no bravery there. I’ve never been brave I’ve always been a needy grovelly crawly coward that’s one of the things I positively loathe about myself - and then loathe myself for loathing myself on and on and on...

LL whatever you think, it WAS brave to go back, whether it was helpful is another matter, but definitely brave and definitely NOT grovelly one little bit. I am so sorry you feel so badly about yourself and know there is so little I can do that will change any of that because you are feeling it so strongly right now, but know that the poeple here do not think you in any way shape or form bad or wrong. This situation is not your fault, I am so sorry that there is no sensible T out there who can help you. Please take good care of you right now LL, I am glad there is more to post, I hope it helps a tiny bit.

Huge hug ((((((LL))))))

starfish

((((((LL))))))

I wholeheartedly agree with everything Starfish said. Everything that you need and want, LL, you absolutely deserve. And you are not asking for too much at all. I mean, jeez, it seems like you have experienced human civility at its worst.

You say you won't be able to start "properly" with this other T until August/September. Does that mean you might be able to have a session here or there with her in the meantime? Does she know all that you've been through in this search? And the toll it's taken on you?

Please keep posting, LL - and even though it may seem like your specificity has been a major problem, I admire you for being so clear in what you need. And just the fact that you do know what you need. When you do find a T (and you WILL, one way or another), it will no doubt be someone that will be able to help tremendously.

Hi, LL...I am so glad to see you are still posting. and I am gald to see, that at least you have found a T. She may not be perfect, probably not-time will tell, but at least she is something, someone, who can listen and hopefully, help.

What I'm going to say next might really offend you- or it might help- I decide to take the risk, because you sound so desperate, LL.
I was wondering, why you call your thread, the 'self-destroying' process of looking for a new therapist- because you are surely, not trying to destroy yourself by *looking* for a T? Please just knock my block off if this is out to lunch, or out of place- but is it possible that you could be looking for reasons in each therapist that they cannot help you, are not good enough, because you do not feel you deserve whatever care they can give, so it is mcuh easier, to think their care is not good enough? I do not say to criticize, or make feel bad- just, I have been there, over and over again and still and continue to be, with my T. the search for perfection...alas. And he has said often enough that I try to find ways to prove he isn't good enough or doesn't care about me, that I have come to believe it in spite of it initially feeling like that wasn't true, was just an excuse on his part, etc and etc. Now I can see it, a bit. I made a conscious decision to stick with my T no matter what or how little I could trust him to help me, when I got in a real bad place like you describe. Not always but a bit, now I can see, oh, he was right- that it is partially at least, me who will not accept his care for me. I was just never brave enough to leave him and look for another T- he is my first real T- but, if I was as brave as you, then, I would be doing the very same, yet maybe, to my detriment- I don't know. You are brave LL, but maybe, that isn't what you need to hear, anyways. I just think it could be something importnat to look at, perhpas, maybe, maybe not, with your new T when you go, this self-destroying thing about therapy. What do you think? eek, I am scared to post, but please do be honest if I have insulted you- I will not hate you or not want any longer to be your cyber friend even if you are horribly angry at me, LL! So go for it, say what you really think of my post. I do agree that T's are not capable of going to the depths neccessary with people like you and I who have this type of problem, (whatever it is??) but I finally have come to realize that something, is much better than nothing- though it is very painful and lonely to be in therapy most of the time, I do hope to poke my head out of the hole and enjoy at least a bit of the sunshine one day! It will be ok, LL. You'll be all right...maybe it's not ok to say it, maybe it sounds invlaidating, but I just really want to say it, nbecause I mean it, I think it will be ok, I know you are scared- Big hug for you, (((((((LL)))))))))

BB (squeezes eyes shut and hits "post now!" )

LL I read this post last night and spent quite a long time thinking about it. It really 'got to me' in some way as your posts often do and because I'm moved I too want to speak directly about that.

You blow me away, you really do. You have this incredible ability to go way down deep into the darkness and to articulate what is going on down there. It's scary and incredibly valuable. You put words to the horror and fear that goes on inside, that so often evades language. Things inside me that are so often without words. I know these things are in others, too. And you have a way of writing it so the language itself evokes those incredibly powerful feelings - your sentences are almost stream of consciousness, and they reflect so perfectly how those feelings operate, the way they spiral and snowball and merge and thunder.

You say you are an expert at controlling feelings and I think you are quite right, in a very particular way. Last night when I was thinking about you I was thinking about Orpheus in the underworld. Today I have a different image - I see an extremely expert sailor on a small boat on a raging sea. I don't think you control the feelings in the sense of having the sea under control, but you are actually aware of all these feelings - the rage, the self-loathing, the hatred, the alienation - and through great skill you navigate that in such a way that somehow you survive when so many others would be pulled under. I see you as a boatperson who has lived for so many years in this raging sea - your language is part of your expertise, finding words through writing to identify and express some of what is going on. I know there are other, deeper currents under the surface that are just on the edges of your awareness - but you are aware of that too.

If I can take the image further I'd say I do hear that you are desperate to get out of this situation, to rest, to have someone take over the tiller and/or get to easier seas and explore the deeper currents. I also think that the incredible expertise that has allowed your survival so far is key to that. I actually don't have any doubt that you are going to make it. But I know the boatperson in treacherous seas doesn't necessarily have time or space to step back and say "gee, I'm a good sailor! Look how I've survived!"

I see it though. I bet others do too. It is a gift that you give to all of us. Hang in there, Lamplighter.

Wow thank you so much for your replies STRM (I’ve read your update about your session, I’m so sorry it was rough), Starfish and Kashley. I so didn’t expect responses to my rant. And Monte your reply started the tears it talked directly to me thankyou. BB I so appreciate the thought you’ve put into your post - I do understand what you’re saying but I guess I have to disagree (sorry!) I used to be like that in other years when I’ve gone into therapy taking for granted that my stuff is getting in the way and that Ts really do care and know what they are doing. Well ended up in hospital (twice!) as a result of that trust so even if I didn’t want to I have to be pretty mistrustful now. Please don’t feel bad for posting what you did it’s your heartfelt response and I really appreciate your support.

Oh Jones, Monte’s post brought the tears yours just let them out I’m still sniffling now writing this. That is such a powerful image you’ve painted for me it’s like you’ve taken my experience and given it form substance something SO positive it’s the first time anyone has ever let me see myself my bloody mind set up in a positive way I mean that I can actually believe. It’s gone right into my heart you know that’s exactly how I feel like I’m bobbing about on a raging ocean but boy do I have control of that tiller and for once my god for once it feels like it’s ok a good thing something positive about my set up. Thankyou is so totally inadequate.

So much more I could say want to say about your reply but I’m really freaking out all the time I have really flipped out over this thread I’ve never deleted a post on any forum I’ve been on before but I feel so I don’t know what, exposed? Out of control? Whoever invented the delete button knew what they were doing that’s for sure.

Dear Lamplighter,

For now I just want to say don't you dare delete this. Your message has made me cry too and is incredibly special to me. Thank you so much. And thank you for showing us your process as you live through this, navigate those hellish waves. It's awesome in the truest sense, and a breathtaking, beautiful generosity.

More from me soon.

Jones

LL,

Your comment about feeling like you can't criticize a T or really say what you feel struck me. A good T will be able to take this and you should be able to bring things up that aren't sitting well with you even if they are about your T. The inability of the T to handle that isn't a reflection on you, it is a reflection on HER and her need to do her own work.

Everyone has provided you with such thoughtful responses and support. I know that this process has just cut you to your core and I can see why. I have to believe that there is a T out there for you because you deserve that. I can only imagine how frustrating this process is for you and how alone in the dark you must feel after each failed attempt. But you know what? The most inspiring part of all of this is that even though you keep running into closed doors you keep searching for another or at least an open window. Your perseverance will pay off and I truly believe you will find the help and healing that you deserve to have. (((((LL))))

That was a beautiful poem Starfish! Thank you for sharing.

LL- thank you very much for telling me, my post was not helpful to you...in all honesty and from my heart, I mean that. My first instinct of course was to immediately delete it, but you know what...if you can be as honest and forthright then I will leave my post there, just because it is part of the story. LL, I think this is an amazing thread. What you wrote above is incredibly powerful, and I with Jones, beg you not to delete it. I think you are creating a really important thread here. There is something going on in you that is really important.

LL, I do not know if it is the same for you, but I have for many years squashed expertly any anger that might be under there, because I am truly, afraid of the kind of person I might "really" be. I am afraid that the real me, is this angry, hateful cruel person with no love to give, and that everything I have ever done has been in an effort to cover that real me up and hide it from the world in order to fit in and survive in it. I used to think, geez, I could have been like Hitler Stalin or the rest of them, if I had had their smarts. It never helped that I was told at a very young age that I had a criminal mind, which has bben for me a constant verification of that the real me is really bad and evil, which is so scary. Please leave your post there, LL...it speaks volumes for the anger and fear, part of the human condition and seems magnified somehow in you- what is happening in you, LL, it NEEDS to be heard, it needs to come out. Jones post says it all. I want to just quote the whole thing!

Starfish, your poem is amazing, and how apt that it captures also what is being said here. And I really hope you can find the courage to leave it here.

BB

LL

Really want to delete as it feels not good having it there, but can't work out how. Can you tell me anyone?

starfish

oh worked it out - sorry folks, it just felt too scary seeing something from me there - I just wanted you to read it though LL cos I think I was in a similar turmoil to you at the time.

starfish

Well, I think BB is right, this is a really amazing thread... & it's happening because you are showing us so much of what's going on inside you, LL. Thank you - it's because of what you've shared that I was able to 'see' that image, and it's special to me too; it will stay with me for a long time.

LL, I love your courage in leaving this material up, and BB, your lovely courage too in leaving up your thoughts too. SF, I got to read the poem before you took it down and wow, what resonance - thank you for sharing it! And even though I wish I could read it again, I'm glad you acted to feel safe when you needed to.

quote:

I am angry I am so so angry and it’s really really threatening me. It’s not a rational reasonable anger sparked by something specific that actually warrants being angry it’s like the anger of a child who is impotently raging at the universe ME ME ME who doesn’t understand and doesn’t WANT to understand why or how or see anyone else’s point of view it’s so dare I use the word narcissistic that’s how it feels like it could so easily become pure global hatred of everyone no matter what they’ve done or not done. And that if I dare to even think about expressing it the whole world is going to turn on me and judge me and punish me for being so evil. Wow this is scary to even think about posting but I’ve hung in there long enough to keep my original post up maybe I can risk posting this too. I can’t believe how freaked out I’ve become these last few days now it feels as if I’m doing something psychologically lethal by daring to talk about some of what’s really going on in me. Damn and blast being T-less. I tell myself this is all to the good that I’m seeing things I’ve had to keep hidden away even from myself all these years but I can’t sustain this kind of emotional insight I’ll just shut down on it all and go back to being the ‘normal’ disconnected cold pedantic know-it-all me who is not really me at all. Why is it so dangerous to be who I really am? Why is anger such a big no-no in the real world? I wish I was a nice person with good thoughts and good feelings towards people I really wish I didn’t have such hugely negative feelings and thoughts about everything it eats me up knowing that I can’t be who I really am because of this huge threatening mass of blind powerless rage - I hate being strong I hate being determined, stubborn, obsessive whatever it’s called.

LL, there's so much in what you've written here - it's incredibly rich and is bringing up a lot of thoughts for me. I hope you are taking care of yourself as you write this stuff - eating, sleeping, comfortable things, cups of tea. I don't mean to patronize you at all here, but I see what you are doing in writing these things as very, very intense work. I think the level of your fear reflects that - that sense of it being psychologically lethal. It's like looking right at the heart of the vortex, or close to it.... It takes huge emotional resources and physical resources too. So please look after your body, so you can keep your hand on that tiller, keep the boat above water, & keep going with the writing when and as you are able....

I would say it is normal to 'shut down' on the insights given the intensity. But I don't believe they will disappear at that point. I suspect they are coming to you because you are ready for them, despite how incredibly difficult this is. But it seems to me that we face new thoughts like this - like maybe some kind of flash of (terrifying) lightning at first, and we have to back away, and then come back, and what we see changes a little, we back away, we come back, it gets clearer and clearer. If you are committed to healing (without doubt, you are) and if the thoughts have value, they won't disappear.

The rage... god, so frightening. Sometimes I feel this in me, and when I (feel forced to) tap into it it is horrible. Feels out of control, absolutely blinding. Part of what is so valuable to me in what you are writing is that I can't access that unless I'm in specific situations (not of my choosing). And I don't have language to describe it. I want to understand it but I don't. I do not envy you in the way you have this present inside you now, and in no way can I make light of what you are going through. BUT I believe you are in contact with something really fundamental to human experience, and your ability to BE in contact with it, and to find words, is enormously valuable, a very particular skill.

"Narcissistic"... that's a really interesting one, and I don't have the qualifications to know all of what that word means or could mean... but I know that I've wondered often enough about how it applies to me! My understanding of it is that in one sense it's a developmental stage, so it's interesting that you connect that with "the anger of a child". How do you see that word? What does it suggest to you?

Only answer if you're feeling up to it, LL - and above all, take care. I hope you are able to find times of rest in amongst this incredible work.

Ah, LL, we cross-posted. I'm sorry you have deleted, but as with SF's poem, I think it's important to act to protect yourself when you have to and I understand that. The work remains inside you regardless.

I quoted a bunch of what you wrote above, but I will delete the quote if you'd like - just say the word.

Nah it’s ok Jones no need to edit your post (but thanks for thinking of me!) I kind of worked out since deleting my stuff that I was treating this place as a substitute therapist and maybe expecting way too much both of others and of me. First time I’ve deleted stuff and I’m going to make sure it’s the last. I think I’d better stick to writing what’s going on in me in my journal.

But I do want to thank you heaps for your previous post - I would have loved to go on about the anger and stuff. Maybe I’ll put up a less personally fraught thread to have a discussion on anger - it’s something I so need to understand and it would help to know how others experience it and deal with it. I’ll just add that to the growing list of things I’d like to post about lol.

Thanks again Jones you have really really helped me with this.

LL

lamplighter, i hate that you erased your post, but i understand. i do think it helps, the snipets i have read, to hear other people feel that way (like me!). i feel so afraid of this dangerous world, and though i 100% believe in God, i have gotten to the point that i think (just last night) that God hates me. I don't feel that intense now, but wow, sounds like you have that same RAGE i do, that maybe is a source of strength, but is REALLY SCARY TO CONTAIN.

please know others feel like you must have posted. there is great comfort on this site. we all care about those on 'our side', and really hope that no one on here is judgmental as we all are carrying a lot of stuff on our backs.

i know that God loves me, now, but last night was that bad, and keeping it 'inside', what i felt, didn't hide it from God, so i confided it to my husband and to y'all. i (and you, it sounds) could just certainly use a bone right now! i pray it comes.

Hello Jill

Welcome to the forum! And thank you so much for posting in this thread - I’ve read your posts and yeah I related SO much to how angry you’re feeling and what you’re feeling angry about. I’ve been doing a LOT of thinking since I first put up this thread, am going to post about it later I think.

I’m sorry you felt hated by God last night - I’m not a believer myself but I think I can understand just how bad the pain must be to so profoundly doubt the love of God. I hear the pain in your rage I so hope you too can find a therapist who understands you and can help you with it all. Anger, rage, hatred whatever they are called are such societally unacceptable feelings that it’s really really scary even thinking of feeling them let alone actually expressing them.

I almost smiled when I read your first posts because it reminded me so much of me - maybe we could get together and stick pins in little dolls of all the lousy therapists we’ve come across!

Will reply in your other threads soon. Thanks for your support.

LL

lamplighter, it would be fun, i'll bring the pins AND the dolls!! how many dolls you need?? i think i am just at two, one T doll for Dr. Sleepy, and one psychiatrist doll...they were both liars, and i am not wrong on that account...know it seems like i am the problem, but i am living in truth these days, and they haven't gotten the memo!!

Ha ha Pin Dolls Forever! Let’s see I need one for my stepmother (a BIG one there) and oh let me count - three for the worst of the Ts and at least two for the Pdocs who should have known better oh and there’s another one for the in between T who got angry at my tears calling them waterworks and spent the entire session telling me how intelligent he was and oh yes another one for... hm I think I’m going to need a lot of dolls lol.

Jill whether you are the ‘problem’ or not it’s their JOB to help us - so yeah you keep sending those memos

Dragonfly I will gladly hand-make you a very special doll for your mother and find you some shiny new LONG hat pins just for her. :hug:

LL