BB, I think this is a topic long overdue, and also one which is difficult for me (and I suspect many others) to open up and explore.

quote:

I don't like feeling this angry at my spouse. It is extremely uncomfortable. But I can't make it go away. It feels like I hate him, that is how bad it gets sometimes.

I can sympathize with these feelings. You wrote many insightful observations about your marriage, and I believe that shows you deserve credit for working hard on the issues you mentioned. I am more in coward mode where I don't want to face the issues head-on but rather stick my head in the sand as long as I can.

I personally think no marriage can escape being affected -- whether for good or ill -- when one partner gets serious about therapy. That's because therapy is life-changing, and if one partner changes, that in turn has a domino affect on the dynamics of their marital interactions. For me personally, the end result/impact on my marriage is not yet clear to me. I do know I am learning to establish boundaries which I have not previously or consistently enforced before. I am also seeking to achieve greater independence. My spouse will have to adjust to these changes. I believe this can be difficult in part because often our spouses need their own therapy. And yet if they are unwilling or cannot adapt to accommodate our personal growth, it may mean the relationship is harmful to us. So in some cases a client will become healthier even though a side effect of that could spell dissolution of certain relationships. On the other hand, many relationships are salvaged only because of therapy. So I believe its not that therapy itself is the big, bad threat; it is all about the choices we become free to make.

Wow, BB...there was so much I could relate to here, and also in the "Struggling & spinning again!" thread concerning this topic...I started responding within that thread, but decided to post here instead because it's more about this topic...hope that's not too confusing. Just to clarify: I responded to your post in this thread first. Sorry but I think I must have quoted most of your post because there was SO much I could relate to. After that, the rest of the references are from the other thread.

And thanks for starting this thread, I agree that it's become a needed topic! Sorry but I've written a book. Funny how that happens...I'm quiet for a while, then suddenly BOOM the floodgates open. Ah well, not the first time...won't be the last either.

Blackbird:
(by the way I loved Jones' reference to the song...used to know how to play it on guitar and I LOVE the song)

quote:

For example, now that I am a bit more aware of unpleasant emotions than I used to be (still a long ways to go) I am dealing with a rage at my husband, that is out of proportion to his actual concrete offences, which are few. I can't help wondering if this rage is really more about my father than my spouse, because my husband is a lot like my dad in his passivity. So my new awareness of his basic setup which seems to be passivity combined with a real stubborness about allowing another (me) to make a decision without his resenting it or avoiding it in every imaginable way, has in turn made me angry at him- where before therapy, he was "the good guy" who loved me so much, and everything that was wrong in the marriage was my fault because of my own issues neediness and failings and whatnot.

I am also dealing with rage toward my husband, who is also passive and avoidant like my dad. There have been times lately where I am acutely aware that I feel EXACTLY the same way as I did with my dad, just as angry and wanting to run just as badly because everything gets so slippery that I feel helpless and stuck to do anything to change the dynamic. Haven't really made any connections yet as to what to DO about it, though...it's just beginning to dawn on me that he has a part in this too. There must be a reason he's staying, I just can't imagine what it is when he obviously isn't getting anything good out of this. And as for being the "good guy"...it is becoming apparent that he has "stuff" too, it's just that his stuff looks better than mine. Which makes it harder to see, harder to confront...and when I try, he does that slippery eel thing where he claims to have just been doing what he thought I wanted, etc...and then I feel like a heel, again, and yet at the same time so frustrated knowing nothing's been resolved, again. Lately he's taken to "thanking" me for correcting him when I tell him I don't like what he's doing...for some reason this is really getting on my nerves. I can't tell you why but it feels like phony BS...like he is still reading from some version of a "good husband" script and not BEING REAL.

quote:

I don't like feeling this angry at my spouse. It is extremely uncomfortable. But I can't make it go away. It feels like I hate him, that is how bad it gets sometimes. I want to go back to taking the blame for everything, but the more I have thought about a few things my T has said, the more I see things differently and realize how angry I have been at him all along for his blindness and inability to love me in a genuine way.

Yep. I feel like I hate mine too, lots of the time. I really don't think he does love me in a genuine way...it feels more like he gets to look like the "good guy" BECAUSE of my problems. Like, what a great guy, too bad he has such a bitch for a wife! Like he uses my badness to make himself look good. Probably all of this is unconscious, of course...I certainly don't think he set out with a plan to do this...probably has to do with his own attachment issues (emotionally unavailable mother). Which is why I was so excited to see that this couples T knows about attachment, hoping he will see my husband's issues too. Not sure if that's actually going to happen. But I don't know where else to turn right now.

And from the other thread (still Blackbird):

quote:

Now I just want him to leave me alone. I prefered the needy feelings to this. It hurts to feel unable to give the one you love the love ydou know they need you to give them. I hate it. Wish soneone would wave a magic wand over my head and change me into an unselfish, giving, affectionate mature and loving wife. It just ain't happening.

I have no idea if feeling needy would ever change to this, if a guy I "loved" would stick around long enough...but I can say, I'd rather "want" a guy than not want him.

quote:

I am currently confused because I too feel the problems in my marriage are all my fault, my husband is this a sweet man and the victim in all of this...

Yes, I feel awful about this too, knowing my husband deserves better, but feeling utterly unable to give it to him.

quote:

Confusing for me, because my husband does everything for me. But part of me knows he just wants to be on my good side. another part of me says that is normal part of any marriage realtionship. And then a third part chimes in that it wants to be loved by a man, and not a person who just needs to be loved by ME in a motherish, he wants to please me and never oppose me and yeah, smother me kind of way. I wish he had friends. I wish he had interests besides just me. It makes me feel icky. Under a microscope all the time. Then I wonder if this is just normal marriage, and I am the one who can't take having a normal relationship without feeling icky.

Bing, bing, bing...you just copied that string of thoughts straight out of my own head, dear BB. I wish I knew the answer...but thank you for sharing this, it helps to know I'm not the only one who feels this way...but then just saying that makes me feel like crap all over again, because I wouldn't wish anyone else to feel this way, and you obviously do. And I'm sorry you do.

One thing I've tried to do is believe that God is the one who chose this man for me so there must be a good reason, and to try to trust Him that he chose a better man for me than I would have chosen for myself (and the evidence certainly is right out there, that the men I prefer certainly don't prefer ME). Oh how I have TRIED to make that work. But...then why am I so lonely? Is it supposed to be that way? I AM committed to my marriage...but right now it feels like a prison sentence. I feel despair thinking of spending the next however many years I have left on this earth feeling so unsatisfied and lonely.

And it's not like I think I'll find anything "better"...not at all. On another thread someone asked something like, what do you do when you get what you want, just not from who you want it from? I don't know...I can't stop wanting it from someone else. Even though I know I'll never get it. So right now, my answer would be, I'd rather not have it at all. Stupid, I know...wish I could change who I want it from!! Grrrrr.

Another trick I've tried is trying to focus on giving him what HE needs, instead of focusing on getting what I need (which works in other areas), but then he seems to push away or ignore my attempts...and so I'm left feeling what's the point?

MTF:
It is interesting how some T's will do individual therapy AND couples therapy with the same person, and others won't...I think the reason many don't is for exactly the kind of thing you described when you say you hate couples sessions. There must be benefits too...such as I wish our new couples T understood me as well as my individual T does. I feel like there's a lot to catch up on, that overwhelming feeling of "starting over". But I'm sorry for the way it makes you feel in couples sessions. I think I would feel really weird, too, if I had to "share" my individual T with my husband.

And I can totally relate to this:

quote:

We lack a lof of affection, communication, warmth and genuine caring in our marriage, so it is a lonely feeling relationship. It's mostly my fault too, as the emotional deprivation I suffered in childhood caused me to feel smothered by the affection my husband was giving in the early days of our marriage and I pushed him away in many ways.

Yup, that's me too. But I've always been this way toward men who are available to me, I push them away. I can only be attracted when they are unavailable, even though it certainly doesn't feel like that's what's attracting me. *sigh* And you talk of "re"-building your marriage...for us it is trying to build something that never was. I don't think I want him to be everything for me...but I wish I could have a husband who was something to me, a friend I could feel close to, at least sometimes. But I never do, I've always just wanted to get away as much as possible. Even though I know I "shouldn't" feel this way. *sigh* again.

Forgive me for the ranting, everybody...I'd better stop for now and give these fingers a rest. Also, tomorrow is Father's Day and I need to take our girls shopping...at least I'd like to give him a good Father's Day, he really does deserve it despite all this ranting of mine. Sometimes I really do need to take "CBT" approaches to things when nothing else works...meaning, do the right thing even if I don't necessarily feel like it.

Thanks for listening...
SG

oooh, I have so much to say to you guys...(surprise, surprise!) But I can't just now, so I'll have to chime in on this thread later on...

BB

hmm, I have a lot to say on this too, but most of it will have to wait till later. I do want to say that after a year each of steady individual therapy for me and my H, and 9 of 10 couples sessions, it feels like we have really turned the corner and are working together with some closeness and communication and love. Trust will take a while, but the difference is amazing. I know in our situation my h NEEDED to come to the party with his own therapy for us to get here, but I have put a lot of work in too, and it is actually starting to pay off.

So hang in there- we have been in some dire places in our relationship - for years and years, even - now we are finding the skills that actually allow us to live like we love each other, instead of just clinging on. I hope it keeps developing this way, but we are both committed and the therapy seems to work for us, so it seems like it should.

Okay this is hard.

My dh (husband) does not even KNOW I'm in therapy and I have sworn my T to keep this confidential (he would anyway as it's my right to privacy). The problem is that my dh does not believe in therapy and would not approve nor understand WHY I do need it. This all began when my son was struggling badly with his own issues and my mother was also dying from Alzheimers. I was a total mess of anxiety and stress and was becoming a horrible parent who felt ineffective and powerless and confused. I had a meeting with my son's teacher and guidance counselor with regard to his problems and his guidance counselor offered 3 names of Ts for us to see as a way of helping my son. My husband came with me reluctantly to see T1 who really didn't treat children as young as my son was but offered to help with parenting. He was nice enough but I decided to try T2. T2 who is my T was WONDERFUL with my son. We saw him with my son for a few sessions and then my T suggested my dh and I come in for parenting sessions as a way to learn to manage his behavior and parent more effectively in the way my son needed. We had maybe 3 or 4 parenting classes and then my son came back into the therapy. By this time things were getting somewhat better for my son and my dh did not see further need for therapy but I convinced him it was important and so he decided that I should go with my son and he would stay home.

About 6 weeks after my son began therapy I called my T one day because of my own extreme anxiety. I was barely functioning, my mom was near death and I had NO time for me. It was work, childcare, housework, running to see and care for mom and back to work again. My T said he normally does not see 2 members of the same family I told him I would not go to another T if he would not take me on. I already had a level of trust and safety with him and I had NO idea at the time how critical that was.

So to make a very long story short...I have grown a lot and my son has improved. My dh and I get along fairly well, except for parenting but we no longer have much in common and I can get very frustrated with his crazy beliefs and ideas about how things should be done. A lot of it is cultural as he is from another culture. But, I need a challenge in my life and someone who is supportive of my growth while he is threatened by me doing things like going back to school or becoming a bit more independent.

The other part that is so difficult is when I'm really sad, or struggling with what is going on in therapy. I have to hide it and bury it while I'm around him. Or sometimes when I cannot I just use the excuse that work was hell and my boss has been extra cranky. My dh has no idea about what abuse I suffered in childhood and when I try to broach the subject (okay very timidly) he does not act receptive to it and avoids the discussion. So I back away.

My dh is a very helpful dh in many ways. He helps around the house and with childcare. He puts up with my shopping vice and pretty much lets me do what I want to do. We talk but not about anything too serious as our views and ideas are SO different. I try to find connections to him through his culture and his favorite sport but it seems very superficial.

The problem that I encountered just last week was that my T asked that my dh come back into parenting sessions. It seems that my son is needing stuff from my dh that I cannot provide and my T thought it would be a good idea to review some stuff with my dh. So the two of us went to a session...as I thought, to discuss parenting issues. Well, the session was horrible for me and I had a really bad reaction to it. I felt very threatened and betrayed by my T and he did not stick to just parenting and I felt he was treading really really close to marital issues and that totally freaked me out. I did not sign up for marital counseling with him and I would NOT. It makes my own therapy with him feel unsafe now. This has caused a real rift for me with my own T that needs to somehow be repaired or I feel I have to leave him for someone else. I'm feeling very trapped right now and very scared. I love my T, I am very attached to him and he has done so much for me but I feel backed into a corner. Either put my son first or my own therapy first.

And so, that is my spouse and therapy story.

TN

{{{{{{{TN}}}}}}}

What you described sounds really, really tough. I can't imagine what it's like for you to have to hide so much. My H knows I go to therapy, but doesn't ask questions, so I don't have to work to hide anything - I can jump up and down in front of him waving my arms and he won't "see". It took me a while to figure that out, though. When I first told him what was going on with me, I was so afraid to hurt his feelings...but time and again, he has had no reaction. Now I've gotten kind of used to it, and even wondered if that's an indication that he's not into our marriage either. Well anyway, enough about that. I just wanted to say, it would be so hard to have to actively hide things. It sounds like you're living kind of a "double life" but also that maybe you've accepted it on those terms? If that's the case...how did you get to the point of acceptance? I'm really having a tough time with it.

I'm sorry for the horrible couples session with your T. It is pretty tough to completely separate parenting and marital issues, though...I mean, some things are obviously separate, but each relationship unavoidably affects the other in many ways. The session must have been very bad for you to even mention considering leaving your T for someone else! When did this session happen? And when is your next individual appointment with your T? I'm sorry you are feeling trapped and scared. I very much hope the two of you can repair the rift that has happened. Please keep us updated on how it goes...

Hugs,
SG

wow, MH, I have to congratulate you on a post that is so concise and well written that it conveys everything I was trying to say in just a few sentences...that is a gift itself! Thank you for what you have said here, it resonates with me in a way that puts onto words exactly what I have been struggling with.

quote:

I personally think no marriage can escape being affected -- whether for good or ill -- when one partner gets serious about therapy. That's because therapy is life-changing, and if one partner changes, that in turn has a domino affect on the dynamics of their marital interactions.

Yes, yes, yes. My husband is freaked out by the fact that I can see things about him and myself now that I could not see before. It has the potential to draw us closer...if he can accept as I am learning to do, the strong emotions that are involved in this kind of reflection. That is where he and I depart. I think boys are sadly, traditionally raised in our culture to reject strong emotion and fear emotion as dangerous to their well-being and even, theior basic masculinity which is understandably, their "treasure." So therapy can threaten all of that. It is painful for them in the extreme to be potentially put into a place of vulnerbility by the one person that they have come to think of as the "protector of their masculinity" that is- their wives. If only they could see that their masculinity would be enhanced and not destroyed by becoming more vulnerable to one they can trust....

quote:

I do know I am learning to establish boundaries which I have not previously or consistently enforced before. I am also seeking to achieve greater independence. My spouse will have to adjust to these changes.

amen, MH! My husband seems to want to retain the staus quo of our marriage...m,y serious need for interaction with him...and I am looking for independence, now, space, room to breathe. For example, my husband wakes me up with coffee, every morning...it may sound very sweet...it IS sweet- but I've had a sleepless night so often...and he needs me to spend some time with him, like a child...oh, and how I want to sleep. and I cannot turn him away...boundaries, like you say, I need to learn them.

quote:

And yet if they are unwilling or cannot adapt to accommodate our personal growth, it may mean the relationship is harmful to us. So in some cases a client will become healthier even though a side effect of that could spell dissolution of certain relationships.

Ugh, this is what I fear, MH. That at the end of therapy, we will have nothing left, and that even that could be "blamed on therapy." That beinbg said, I do intend to stick it out whether I am "happy" in the relationship or not...because I do believe that marriage itself is more importnat than my own personal fulfillment or happiness. Many may disagree with this, but that is how I feel, believe, it is just my own thing.

quote:

So I believe its not that therapy itself is the big, bad threat; it is all about the choices we become free to make.

I am afraid of making the choice to to leave my husband, that really freaks me out. And yet, if I am not free to leave, than am I really free to stay?

Your post is really thought-provoking and thanks for the insight, MH...

BB

Monte-

quote:

I expected him to be all things early in the piece and the poor guy - suffering terribly from Knight-In-Shining-Armour-Syndrome - strove to be just that. It filled his dysfunctional need to be a rescuer - to be desperately needed. But it wasn't possible to fill all my needs and it was unhealthy all round that he should be trying.

ST DOESN'T GET IT!!!! I need him to be bigger than me. But he isn't. He's much smaller. It sucks.

quote:

I was still suffering terribly from depression and anxiety but went from clinging frantically to him to barely asking him for anything. He had 'let me down' you see, by not meeting my needs, so I wanted nothing from him.

I think this is where I am now. possibly.

quote:

One other thing, which is probably an extension of what I just said, when I haven't seen my T for ages and I'm starting to suffer from things, my husband will casually say, "When did you last see _____ ?" which is kind of funny, but I do get a bit of a feeling of being passed along.

Th9is is the kind of thing that bites the most. Oh this bites. WHY WON'T YOU BE THE ONE TO MEET MY EMOTIONAL NEEDS!!!?? Dear husband of mine, you could easily get what you need by just being willing to accept me and meet me where I am at like my T does. If husbands and wives would act as therapists act towards eachother, than there would be no need for therapy except for the unmarried. Will it ever happen? I long for my husband to love me. He never will be able to, so I go to therapy for what I need. Thank you dear mother in law. Yet I do not meet his needs either. sigh. What my church calls "original sin." I wish I could die and just get it all over with. What my SD would call my tendency to "embrace the darkness."
sigh.

BB

SG-

quote:

Funny how that happens...I'm quiet for a while, then suddenly BOOM the floodgates open. Ah well, not the first time...won't be the last either.

We are glad of it, because your posts speak so much to us of human experience...and we learn so much. Thanks, SG.

Sg, I think there is something is passiveness and avoidance and whatnot, that is more rage-provoking than anything else. honestly, if my husband hit me or abused me, it would feel "better." At least it would be the honest expression of how he feels, instead of this nice guy crap. Oh, I detest his dishonesty about how he feels. He is "THE NICE GUY!!!!" In capital letters. As was my dad. Meanwhile everyone suffered horribly while he dealt with somehow getting his own needs met. Unsuccessfully. And I for one just think this is different for women. Men are SUPPOSED TO BE THE "GIVERS." It is even, the way they are biologically created. Anyone read "The Theology of the Body" by Karol Wojtyla? Profound stuff. Very profound, very life changing stuff. Not sure I understand the whole of it, but I think we are created in specific ways, to give, to receive, and that by filling those roles we profoundly reach fulfillment. You don't have to be a Christian to understnad and appreciate the basic meaning and signigicance of this work.
Oh, marriage is hard. It is just hard.

BB

quote:

Oh how I have TRIED to make that work.

I feel like I've been posting to this thread all afternoon. Trying to find some answers.

SG:
But...then why am I so lonely? Is it supposed to be that way? I AM committed to my marriage...but right now it feels like a prison sentence. I feel despair thinking of spending the next however many years I have left on this earth feeling so unsatisfied and lonely.

Oh, SG.. I get you here. Have you ever seen that movie, "the Horse Whisperer?" Wow, Usually that kind of thing makes my eyes roll so much they get stuck in the back of my head, but that one really spoke to me. what a powerful movie. I totally related to it. Ironically, I'm not sure I was even married yet at the time it was made. If you have seen it, let me know waht your thoughts on it were. It was sad. I think the Horse Whisperer was every woman's dream husband.

quote:

But I've always been this way toward men who are available to me, I push them away. I can only be attracted when they are unavailable, even though it certainly doesn't feel like that's what's attracting me.

Oh, and this. Yeah, and it is even this way with sex, The only way I can get interested in *relations* with my spouse is when it somehow feels like *I can't have it.* Or even *it will be forced/unpleasant.* I know, abnormal. But why is it? Does this relate to the past?

TN, your story is so sad. I really relate to the sense of having the kind of relationship with your spouse that you feel your emotional needs have to get met elsewhere, like it is too much for him to be able to deal with. and I am sorry that your boy is kind of in the middle of the situation, that must feel awful. I often feel like my kids are hanging in the balance of our relationship and it just puts that much more pressure on getting things right, which also, feels impossible.So hard.
Thanks for showing us, letting us get to know your siruation better...it means a lot. I hope the rift between your T and you can get repaired...let us know how that goes, please, because we will be concerned about that, and wiating to hear how it goes.
TN, it soudns like you and your spouse have some secrets and secrets are never good. You might be surprised at how your husband could react to your becoming vulnerable to him? I know it is bold to suggest, but I thought I'd throw out there, and you of course know best in your situation, TN. Just know BB is koo-koo, (but still love me? ) if you know yourself that I am off base.

Hug, TN, so sorry to hear that things are difficult.

BB

quote:

I think the Horse Whisperer was every woman's dream husband.

I've heard of it but not seen it...but now I will watch it and let you know what I think. Judging from the title, and from your remarks, I can probably predict what will happen. I will bawl my eyes out wanting what I can't have.

BB, I think what we want is the Woman Whisperer. (I was going to type Wife instead of Woman, but then I thought, oh no no no...I don't want to whispered to like a wife. I want it like a woman.)

Phew...is it warm in here?
SG

quote:

I'd cry myself to sleep with my head under the pillow, or in the shower...couldn't let him know the full truth.

Oh, FOT, how many times have I been there...crying in bed alone, or in the shower, not wanting my husbadn to know...praying he doesn't hear me... and wishing it could be ok to tell him. then, sometimes I would tell, and find he can't make it about me, somehow, it always turns into something about him in some odd way that still seems like he is being about me, and then, feeling guilty that that should bother me... I should always be the one to give him what he needs and if I can't/don't that is bad on me. Oh it is useless for myself to try to talk to him about myself, or my needs exclusively... that hurts, though... but the only thing that has use for both of us, is to talk of him, and that hurts anyway, whether it should or not. It's so hard to give and feel that even the recieving you do is for the other's benefit...I will dry up before long I fear. FOT...I hope your relationship will become more give adn take soon. I am sorry it si so lonely for you.

BB

STRM-

quote:

I feel immense guilt at not being able to meet his needs both emotionally and sexually. I find that when I get insecure in the relationship and feel him pulling away more that I then have to have sex with him to get him to stay. This is not the case, but it is the dynamic that plays out for me. He never pressures me at all, but I know that he wants it and then I feel like I have to give it in order to keep him loving me.

Oh, ugh, STRM when I started this thread I was scared that someone would say the sex word, but now I find, I am so glad that you have said it. This is the biggest problem in my narriage, or the one that is the most "illustrative" of our problems. I often find myself sobbing unctrollable when we have realtions. It makes my husband understandbale feel like **** and he is sympathetic, but he does NOT understand. Last time he said "You are SO courageous! Did you know it would hurt that much?" I hate him for this commetn, I really do. I think, oh, he is trying so hard to be kind and understanding, but it is ALSYAS about HIM. And I just rage at him. Sex sucks. I hate it, I resent it, and I think it is all about him and his needs rather than any bonding. But I KNOW this is not the way it is supposed to be. I stay away from sex most of the time which makes my spouse very angry at me most of the time. I can't do something that feels like a lie. If their is no emotional intimacy, what is the point of engaging in realtions? Isn't it supposed to be a reflection and expression of the love you feel for eachother? So confusing. Guilt producing.

BB

DF-

quote:

I too feel guilt at not being a normal loving wife and about the fact that i cant give him what he needs on a regular basis...........things have got better for us, but they are by no means normal..

How did you get ot somewhat normal? Was it through T? Because I am NOT BALE TO DO WHAT I AM "SUPPOSED" to do at all. I think fuck him and his physical needs, I'm not there. Bad of me, I know, very, very bad. wish I could even be like you all and feel bad about it, but I don't, I just think "ALL HIS FUALT SCREW HIM" which isn't even the truth.
No love in this blackbird's heart. Very bad wife.

BB

SG, yeah, let me know... I may rent it again, myself, just to see it "with you." We'll tawk.

BB

OK, I promise to let someone else post now!

UPDATE on T situation. Thanks to all of you who have offered empathy, understanding and hugs. BB I certainly don't think you are koo-koo... I think you are very insightful and smart. Unfortunately, I don't have the courage to do what you suggest. Yes, I have secrets and they are so deeply entrenched I don't know any other way... because that would involve trust and that comes hard for me. I've only just really started experiencing that with my T.

Okay as for T and I...we are okay. I saw him Friday at a sort of social event for his summer camp where my son attends. I was really scared to see him there and when I spotted him I became frozen beside my car. He walked over to me and offered his hand. I just stared at it for a few seconds before taking it and shaking hands. I had my sunglasses on so he could not see my eyes...he would have seen a lot of fear there. When he shook my hand he said in a really gentle and soft voice, "there now... that's better". It sort of broke the ice for us. He was not angry with me and he very quickly and efficient broke down my defensive walls of protection. He knew exactly how I was feeling and he reached out to me and in doing it the way he did, he reached inside of me to the hurt child. After that we spoke a few minutes at the end of the function. He teased me about something we sort of have a private joke about and we bantered back and forth a bit. He shook my hand again when I was leaving and I wished him a happy father's day.

Over the weekend I started to feel really anxious and as my next session (individual) was not until Thursday I thought I'd go crazy waiting to talk to him. So I emailed him Saturday and asked for a half session today. He emailed back with a time and we met today.

I told him exactly how I felt about our "joint" session on Thursday. Actually, he made some comments first about what he thought he did to upset me and he was pretty much on target. He had also moved our joint meeting to a neutral office and when I asked why he told me it was to protect "my" space (which is his office). It didn't upset me I was just curious and thought perhaps that was the reason. I was actually quite happy he did that. He also told me that because of the seating arrangement in that office, which he neglected to consider, he could not look at both me and my dh at the same time. And he ended up spending much more time looking at dh because he was the one who had to be brought up to speed and T felt he needed to establish some kind of working alliance to get him to accept the parenting strategies. And because he was focused on doing that he didn't realize I had "gone" from the room and that he lost me or why. He apologized for that and gave me his thoughts on what in retrospect he should have done differently.

We were pretty connected in the session, even though it was short, and he was very focused on me. He congratulated me for standing up for myself, telling me that it was taking care of me and that I had previously had trouble doing that. I made myself known to him and how I saw things. He was happy that I could come talk to him about this. I told him how it was hard for me to see him doing therapy with another patient (my dh) and that it made me think that therapy was fake, that he was playing a role and I was no one to him and my therapy was very inauthentic and fake. He looked surprised and said he could never operate that way and he was surprised that I would think that because he feels that our relationship is very deep and unique. He told me he was thinking over the weekend what happened Thursday and what went wrong that I looked and acted so upset when I left him. I told him that I stared to feel better after seeing him on Friday at the function because of how he was able to reach inside of me to the hurt, young child and when he does that I find it so healing. He said he knew that.

At the end of the session I asked him if i could hug him and he said yes certainly and so we hugged and I told him he is wonderful and he said no you are wonderful and wished me a good week. So while we need further discussion about this and about my dh joining us for parenting, we have at least made a start and he knows more about my level of discomfort with the whole idea.

He really is a wonderful caring T and I don't want to lose him. He's just too important to both me and my son.

TN

Hey, TN, I am so relieved and happy that the things worked out between your T and you. I love how he approached you like that and offered his hand...it speaks volumes for the honesty and authenticity of the relationship you have. In other words, he can do that outside of therapy, it shows that what you have is areal and not some fake therapeutic approach, kwim? I am really really glad to hear it.

I was really out of it all yesterday, and I was just posting and posting on this thread and now I'm considering deleting everything because I wasn't myself when I was posting, in fact I'm pretty sure I was completely out of it. I don't remember sitting her so long, and I would have to re-read what I wrote to remember it. So in short, I hope I didn't trigger anyone, and I pray I wasn't insensitive or hurtful with what I wrote. I will get brave and re-read later on.

I have to go now. Hug, everyone.

BB

Blackbird, I agree with Monte...please do not delete! You made me laugh yesterday when you said "OK, I promise to let someone else post now!" after all your other posts...your genuineness and spontaneity just really shone through and I LOVE that. Your posts are always helpful and comforting and insightful, but I've noticed something special in this particular thread...these posts are obviously coming from a place of great pain and passion, and judging from all the responses, you have tapped into our hearts by so generously sharing your own. I know it's a little scary to have our hearts "out there" but that is how healing takes place!

BB I'm wondering if you are especially concerned about how the topic of sex has come up...but you've given a safe space for others to speak of great pain, and you've shared your own, and that is hugely important. How long have you and STRM and DF and how many others silently endured this pain alone? My heart just cried out to hear of your uncontrollable sobbing, STRM's and DF's vomiting, DF's passing out and flashbacks...and I do not mean to slam on anyone's partner, not at all, but your needs for safety ARE important and need to be heard and respected, IMO. Not just disregarded as an inconvenience to your partners' needs. I do not even understand how their needs can be so great as to ignore your obvious pain...I am actually kind of trembling with anger at the thought of them "continuing" as you are sobbing, passing out, vomiting...how is that possible? Again I am not trying to say anything against your partners...just wanting to say you ARE important, I think this pain absolutely MUST be addressed and not ignored! You've all been through WAY WAY too much pain already. Forgive me if I've overstepped. I just wish I could hold all of you and protect you from further pain and harm.
{{{{{{{{{{BB, DF, STRM}}}}}}}}}}
SG

You guys are funny. Monte, you crack me up! Thank you for always getting me to laugh. I Guess I was worried about triggering anyone. I was worried about DF because of what happened. SG, thank you for your kind words, re: sex. It freaks me out to talk about sex. I don't even like the word- how immature.) My problem with sex is that I do not know why I have a problem with it. I wish I could say, I was abused and that is why, but instead I just think I am a bad person. I think my husband thinks that too, thinks I am selfish, whatever, I just have to get over it. His basic attitude to me on just about everything is "just stop it." Like that video. So it gets painful because he doesn't realize how much I am hurting until it is too late and I am in very bad spot. He thinks I'm all good, and that none of this is any big deal, doesn't realize how incapable of carrying out decisions I feel, and treats me like I am a normal, rather highly functioning person, of course I have to live up to this expectation and try hard, but sometimes it just breaks down. It's not really his fault- it's my own fault for taking on more that I can handle. It makes me very sad that I can't seem to handle the basics.

BB

BB, yes step away from the delete button! There was nothing wrong with your posts yesterday! I'm sorry about the "just stop it" attitude. I think men just get so fed up because they can't fix it and then they feel like less of a man and end up lashing out. ((((BB))))

TN: I am so pleased at the interaction with your T at the social event and that you were able to reach out and ask for the extra session. I'm glad that you felt heard and that some of the issue is resolved. Your T sounds wonderful.

SG: I think I might have been unclear in my posts. My partner is VERY tuned in to my feelings and how I am reacting to sex. The vomiting and crying always happen either afterwards or when I have had to stop right in the middle of having sex. My dh will stop immediately upon my request or even if he senses that I'm "leaving". In fact, what triggers me most is him finishing (trying to find a non-triggering word here) so he has actually NOT done that in ages. He intentionally holds back in order to stop at a point where I am not triggered. He says he would rather skip that and have it be a positive experience. I do still sometimes feel pressured to have sex, but it doesn't come from him. It's my own issues that cause me to feel the pressure. He goes months at a time with no sex and he doesn't get angry with me. He says he just wants to be close. The problem is that I get freaked out because the physical act of sex is very detached for me, but the emotions of being "close" and really letting him in freak me out!

quote:

The problem is that I get freaked out because the physical act of sex is very detached for me, but the emotions of being "close" and really letting him in freak me out!

wow, you just put it in words for me too, STRM. I don't like when sex is emotionally intimate, it totally freaks me out, and yet that is what I want it to be the most. So weird.
I too want to clarify that my spouse isn't cruel about sex, it is just the way it works out sometimes. He tries very hard to be caring about it, just doesn't really know how, and I can't really express what it is I need. So the problems are two way street. I also want to clarify that my husband never alshes out at me...all of this stuff is felt strongly by me, rather than expressed by him, and I'm never sure if my perceptions of it are true or not.

Hard going.

BB

STRM and BB: I'm so sorry I got it wrong, especially so you had to go into more details about such a painful and triggering subject, but thank you, it was very generous of you to clarify this.

STRM: Your partner sounds like a gem, in fact it sounds like both of you are going to great lengths to find a place to meet in the middle where you can both enjoy intimacy as much as possible without completely denying him or re-traumatizing you. In fact I am a bit in awe of how much you are both making no small sacrifice of your own comfort in order to find that middle ground...you've given me much to think about and reconsider in terms of my own marriage. Thank you for that.

BB: I'm so glad you decided not to delete. And I'm sorry for implying that your spouse is cruel or that he lashes out at you. I hope you can understand my reaction was coming partly from feeling protective of my Psych Cafe friends.

And naturally the other part was coming from my own stuff. My spouse and I also have problems in this area. Not sure I want to go into it here, because there is so much that's conflicted just in me, but I agree it is a two-way street with my husband having his own issues. I continue to discuss it with my T, and I wrote about it at length on the intake forms for the couples T that we won't see now until end of July, so I'm anxious to know how carefully the couples T read those forms, and how much of it will be brought up while we are there so we can get some help talking about these things with each other. Thank you all for being so open about your experiences, like I said you've given me a lot to think about.

SG

quote:

BB: I'm so glad you decided not to delete. And I'm sorry for implying that your spouse is cruel or that he lashes out at you. I hope you can understand my reaction was coming partly from feeling protective of my Psych Cafe friends.

Oh, SG, I really appreciated feeling "protected" by you for that little moment in your post. It was sweet and genuine, and meant a lot to me! Just very nice to feel cared about in that way. And clarifying it wasn't triggering for me, I just wanted you to know my husband is a decent man. Sorry it came off the wrong way, but glad too, because it makes it clearer to me that when I have to explain this stuff at some point to my T I need to tread carefully and choose the correct words so that it doesn't look like I'm a victim of horrible abuse within the marriage. He'll need to see the truth if he is going to help with it. Gah, I don't want to talk about it with my T. Oh, help. Guess that's why I was practicing here a bit, cause I know in the not-so-distant future I'm gonna have to talk about sex....ooo, I'm so proud of myself, I typed "that word" again.

BB

DF, are you reading this? I just wanted to thank you for what you said above, and like Jones said in another post so well, just say let us care for you awhile if we possibly can. Thinking of you.

BB

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
DF, are you reading this? I just wanted to thank you for what you said above, and like Jones said in another post so well, just say let us care for you awhile if we possibly can. Thinking of you.

BB

Just wanted to say ditto to this! Thinking of you DF!

I've been away from this thread for several days and just now catching up on all the heartfelt contributions. Some of the experiences courageously posted here about sexual intimacy challenges hit home to me, but like BB I find it difficult to open up about that "S" word. I am trying to make myself discuss it with my T, but even with her all I feel is shame, so I hold back being fully honest about the difficulties. The last time I brought sex up in session my T said she thought I was being sexually abused by my H. Now, I know I may experience it that way, but isn't it more in my mind than reality? So then I found myself wanting to defend H, but not sure if I should because I do want things to be different between us. This issue is part of what I was alluding to in my first post on this thread about establishing boundaries - something I am obviously still learning. This post isn't adding much to the discussion since I am being vague, but I just at least want to say thank you to so many for sharing here. It is giving me food for thought and just helps knowing I am not the only one with these kind of issues.

Hi MH,

It's really good to see you around these parts again, if I didn't say that already.

I am so sorry to read that you're in any kind of situation that your T might see that way - that your H is being sexually abusive. I understand the desire to rationalise the experience ('it's just my interpretation') and to defend your husband. A couple of times my T said something like 'that sounds quite abusive' to me about stuff in my relationship, and basically I just tried to ignore her because of those feelings. I wasn't even sure who she was saying was abusive and I didn't want to know. I was also scared that if she thought that about my relationship that she thought I should leave, and I didn't want to. Or that she would start seeing it as either all his fault or all my fault and I knew it was neither of those things.

But actually she kept supporting me in working on the relationship and working on myself in the relationship. For me it was really important to me that I could see how I was contributing to those situations, because I guess I wanted to feel like I had more control over them. And she helped me with that, and things are much better at the moment. But that is partly because my H has been really committed to improving things too. Anyway, part of what I'm trying to say is that acknowledging the strength of the feelings (hurt and fear and intrusion) in those situations has been essential too, in ways I can't really explain, because I sort of don't understand yet.

Anyway, I don't know if all this is relevant to your situation or not. I just sort of want to say if you are feeling abused, that IS your experience and those feelings are valid and really really really important. Acknowledging the feelings doesn't necessarily determine the outcome, if that is something you are scared about. In any event, it's an extremely painful thing for you to be going through. I'm glad your T is supporting you, and I hope you can give yourself a lot of space and care as you work through acknowledging and dealing with what you are experiencing.

Take care, MH.

Jones

Thank you, Jones, for your thoughtful and sensitive reply. I really don't deserve it because my support for others here, including yourself, has been almost nonexistent for quite awhile. I am sorry about that. So many posts seem to be triggering to me that I find it difficult to respond, but that's a lame excuse because its probably true for everyone here.

quote:

A couple of times my T said something like 'that sounds quite abusive' to me about stuff in my relationship, and basically I just tried to ignore her because of those feelings....I was also scared that if she thought that about my relationship that she thought I should leave, and I didn't want to. Or that she would start seeing it as either all his fault or all my fault and I knew it was neither of those things.

This part is relevant to me. My T has hinted two or three times before about the possibility of me leaving my husband, but then she always covers it with, "You know that I would never tell you what to do." I think I'd rebel if she did. I know I contribute much to my marital difficulties, that its not all him. It's hard figuring out how much responsibility I should own.

quote:

Acknowledging the feelings doesn't necessarily determine the outcome, if that is something you are scared about.

It sounds obvious, but it hasn't sunk in yet! Maybe it's that all or nothing type of thinking that gets in the way. One thing I don't understand and worry about is how far I should go to enforce or protect a boundary I have set? Are my boundaries worth preserving if it means I have to leave him to do it? Because that is why I keep sacrificing the boundaries. It's not worth the trouble it causes.

{{{{{{{{MH}}}}}}}}

Hi MH...I don't have much to add, Jones' reply was beautiful...but I just wanted to say I'm sorry you are in such a difficult place right now with your husband and the boundaries, and also sorry to hear that so many posts are triggering and make it difficult to respond. IMO it's not a lame excuse at all...and if it is, well, I've been there, too (feeling so triggered by posts that I can't respond)...so anyway I'm just really glad you reached out and said something so you could get some support. I don't know if there's any relationship more difficult to determine where the boundaries need to be, than a marriage. And the fact that those boundaries will be different from marriage to marriage makes it even more complicated. I hope you can come here and get as much support as you need to as you work through this.

Hugs,
SG

MH, you don't need to 'give' anything by responding to 'deserve' a response. You already give by sharing yourself. And if you don't think that's a gift, think about how much you learn from reading other peoples' stories. I'm learning from reading yours, too. We respond when it feels right, and that's just fine.

I struggled with the boundary question a lot. I'm sure I will again. SOmehow a lot of it seemed to resolve itself when I focused on other stuff - really feeling what I was feeling, expressing it, not blaming or pushing it elsewhere but owning it deeply inside myself, understanding what I want and need.

Again I'm at the edges of my own understanding here, so I can't exactly explain how this worked, but it did. Not in the ways I expected. Like - I used to get really really anxious about certain things my husband would do or not do, and that would trigger terrible fights. I noticed whenever I was feeling anxious about that stuff that very often there were other anxieties underneath - about what *I* was doing or not doing. I started to address those more directly, to admit them to myself as soon as I was feeling them and to share the feelings with my H. The number and intensity of the fights just shrank. Your situation may require different stuff, I don't know. It's just that that made me think really differently about boundaries - I didn't have to *police* anything in the way I thought I did, I just had to seriously attend to how I was feeling.

I agree with SG - just reach out for the support if you can.

By the way, my T shared with me in our last session that she didn't know which way I was going to go in my marriage - that she hadn't led my direction at all. Your T may have an opinion, or she may just be trying to give you space to explore different thoughts about it - in any case, the choices will always be yours, and you are entitled to choose the process you go through to get to some feeling of resolution.

J

quote:

MH, you don't need to 'give' anything by responding to 'deserve' a response. You already give by sharing yourself. And if you don't think that's a gift, think about how much you learn from reading other peoples' stories. I'm learning from reading yours, too. We respond when it feels right, and that's just fine.

I didn't think of it that way, but Jones you are so right that I learn much from reading others stories. That thought helps me feel less guilty.

quote:

I don't know if there's any relationship more difficult to determine where the boundaries need to be, than a marriage.

Yes, so true, SG. Which is why I think this thread is a good idea, to get feedback and perspective. If we can get it right in our marriage, those skills should spill over to our other relationships, right?

quote:

I too have had the "oh that sounds really abusive to me",speech about my husband.Thing was....he was being abusive! But where I have been abused all my life, what he was doing , just seemed like the 'norm'!

My T said something similar to me when I kept insisting that things were OK because they "weren't as bad as what I had growing up." She said, "I wonder if you would know how to recognize abuse because of how you grew up. Just because it isn't 'as bad' doesn't mean it is acceptable."

quote:

because of my past i didn't even know what a boundary was! let alone how to enforce one!
IF I did try to enforce my boundaries, he dug his heels in even more and then started threatening me that he was leaving.....it was awful, so i let him get away with stuff, just to keep him and keep the peace.....somehow he'd make me feel guilty for asking for him not to keep upsetting me!

Oh, this definitely hits uncomfortably close to home. What scares me, DF, is the part that happened next, where you threw him out. Even though it is good to know the end of the story, that things got much better in the long run because of it. But such a scary step when you don't know how things might end. I'm not ready for that, but I think my T is trying to help me get ready for that step so that I will have at least the option to leave, if necessary.

J and DF, if I get brave enough to broach the subject in T again, would you mind if I share your replies with her as food for thought?

MH, you'd be very welcome to share my reply if you think it might help. I love DF's reply too - it says so many of the things about boundaries that I can't get to, because they are not part of my experience in such a clear way, but they sort of are still part of it too - e.g. my H is in therapy partly because I've said that's a bottom line for me, and because of that his working with me on stuff comes from his own impetus a lot of the time. I don't know, all the couples stuff is incredibly tricky because there's not only one incredibly complex person involved, but two....Two sets of resources, too (three, plus the therapist). Keep us posted.

J

I have a question that I think belongs in this thread. For those of you who have done joint-therapy with your spouses, I wonder how many of you used the same T for the marriage counseling as for your own personal counseling, and if you had to do it over again would you use separate Ts for that? I have read various posts here on the forum which have mentioned the difficulties in "sharing" a T, and how different it feels not to be the center of attention. Also, if your spouses have had their own personal therapy, was it with your T or another T? I just don't think I could handle my husband having his own private therapy with MY T even if he were willing. In addition to jealousy, I would feel that my space with T wasn't safe and protected anymore. If H and I ever do joint counseling in the future, I am leaning towards using a different therapist for that than my own T.

Hi MH,
My is technically both my husband and I's individual T as well as our marital counselor. There are very few Ts that would so this, I know, but it has worked well for us, although it hasn't been without its challenges.

My husband went to our T for individual therapy, VERY irregularly for about ten years before we started marital therapy. When we started going to therapy together, we went to see his T because my husband didn't trust my T at the time to be neutral because we had been working together for a long time. We had been in together to see his T a 2 or 3 times over the years when my husband asked me to come in to discuss something. I didn't have strong feelings either way about my T at the time but I did trust him to be neutral and it was a lot easier than having to hunt for another T we trusted. So we kind of fell into it.

As we started working through the marital stuff, I was still seeing my first T for individual therapy, and I started pushing for my husband to go back to doing individual therapy as well as the marital therapy (our marital therapy had essentially replaced his individual sessions. It's tedious to go into, but the only time my husband can make an appt is at 5:30 in the evening, and they're tough to come by so it was just easier to take over his sessions and he didn't mind.) Every time I mentioned it in a couples session, our T would say things were fine as they were. He later said in one of our couples sessions that my husband had started doing better work when I started coming also so I think our T saw it as a win-win. A year after we started working with him as a couple, my first T retired. My immediate thought was to switch over, but when my husband and I discussed it, he was (very understandably) pretty uncomfortable. We mentioned it at our next couples' session and our T pretty much agreed it wouldn't be a good idea. So I decided to do without individual therapy for a while and see how it went. Especially as towards the end with my first T I was actually feeling a little guilty because I was getting more out of the couples sessions.

How then, you ask, did I end of seeing him? Flash forward a year and I had developed an attraction to our T to the point it was getting distracting. Not to mention making me feel like an idiot. Just didn't seem that brilliant to develop feelings for the man trying to help me save my marriage. . I struggled for a while and ended up reading this great site on psychology (SG has linked to it in the past) where the psychiatrist highly recommended that if you developed feelings for your T the best thing to do was to talk to them directly about it. Which I struggled with for a little while because it was so terrifying. A lot of the attraction was based on the fact that this man was making me feel heard and understood in a way that hadn't happened in a while. It was being a sponge in the desert and having someone pour cold water over me. I didn't want to lose that and part of me really believed that if I told him I felt that way about him, he was going to send us to another marriage T. But the feelings kept getting stronger and were actually starting to interfere with my paying attention in sessions so I finally broke down and asked him for a session alone (I told my husband that I needed to go in alone) and told him how I felt. He was amazing and wonderfully understanding about it while being very clear about the boundaries. Making that connection with him kicked up some stuff and I didn't have anywhere else to turn, so I made another appt with him. I went along this way, seeing him every three weeks or so (and feeling terribly guilty about it since I had agreed I wouldn't see him individually. BTW, I told my husband about my feelings for our T the morning after I told my T and we had all discussed it together. My husband has been extremely understanding through all of this.) Then I got scared and tried to run, to the point of seeing another therapist for about four sessions. All the "I want you desparately, I have to get the hell out of here" behavior clued my T in on the disorganized attachment. Things finally came to a head in a couples session where we all discussed it and my husband agreed to my seeing our T individually as long as it was clear that if anything happened between us where we didn't work out (which at that point was looking like a VERY remote possibility, things were considerably better between us at that point) he got our T. Our T agreed, saying that he really didn't see it happening but if somewhere down the road things went south and I was suing him, my husband and the doorman then since my husband had been his patient first, he would work with me to transfer me to someone else, and he would remain my husband's T. And my T made it clear that he thought it was important I stay and work through this.

I wanted to work with him so badly at that point that I agreed although I must admit that the provision haunted me for awhile.

The setup has worked well for us for a couple of reasons. We're all very open to discussing anything that's going on and if my husband is feeling uncomfortable about anything, he brings it up in a couples session and my T is more than willing to discuss it. I also think the fact that my husband HASN'T been seeing him alone while I have been (except for an occasional session. One of which sent me into one of my worst meltdowns and longest emergency calls to my T ).

The downside to the situation is that I went through a period where couples' sessions could feel really threatening because I came convinced that I was going to do or say something in a couples' session that would make my T despise me. I used to have these horrible scenarios running through my head of my T turning to my husband and saying "wow, she's really horrible, why would you possibly want to make this work, you need to leave her" and having them both walk out. (I hasten to add this was in MY head, based on my abandonment worries and not on anything either my T or husband said. Actually they were both very reassuring that nothing of the kind was going to happen. My T with a little more patience for repeating himself. ) As hard as that was though, those worries and my jealousy of my husband (another doozy of an emergency call) were another window in my psyche and how I felt about my attachment figure. The setup ultimately led to a very significant breakthrough when I finally dealt with my feelings of guilt for being there (which had persisted over 2 1/2 years of working with my T) so although it has been difficult, it's been very useful.

But I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I think the reason it has worked so well was because both my husband and I were able to be very open with each other and my T is SO good at what he does and was able to keep a very clear balance, hold his boundaries, treat us both fairly and still be able to hear all my feelings non-defensively. I can definitely see where it would be a situation you'd want to avoid and I understand why for some Ts it would absolutely NOT be a possibility. It has worked out well for me but it could have turned into a really bad situation.

Sorry, I meant that to be a quick reply. Bottom line, I think finding another T for marital counseling is a good idea.

AG

Hi MH,

We have a somewhat unusual experience with this. We had a number of sessions with a couples T some time ago, and that ended disastrously, with my husband walking out because he felt that the T was biased (he had fairly good reason for this - she wasn't listening to him). The walk-out and what happened for us afterwards were pretty traumatic for us both.

Later we both worked with different individual Ts in the same practice, and with these events in mind they suggested we see them for couples work together, so that we both had the security of someone who knew us in the room. My T tells me this is not unusual in some places.

It worked very well in lots of regards. We had the benefit of *all* the knowledge of our individual work together in the room, and between our two Ts the sessions felt very well planned. There were still some times when each of us felt like there were uncomfortable allegiances, or that we were unfairly spotlighted, but because we had the back up of processing with our own Ts each week as well that never got out of control. Often my T was pretty quiet in the sessions but just having her present for the 'whole story' accelerated both the individual and the couples work.

The big drawback was the massive expense, but aside from that it was an excellent way to work. We managed it because it was for a limited period only, but I would recommend it for anyone in the right situation.

MH, is your husband at all willing to contemplate seeing someone (else) on his own? And does your T work on her own or in a practice? If he *would* contemplate it, perhaps it worth be worth seeing if he can get someone she knows or could work with in some way, so there's potential for working together in future. Just speculating here.

Hiya,

BB asked me this in another thread, so I thought it would be good to come plonk it over here and respond in the 'spouses' discussion.

quote:

Jones:

quote:

Since we've been working on this pattern I notice that I'm more inclined to actually go to my H with the feelings, good and bad, and we've cleared some of the dead wood so that doing that doesn't make such a conflagration. The result is some beautiful intimacy. Via a lot of risk and wrong steps.

This really gives me some hope, and I love hearing about the changes in your relationship, Jones. It gives me such a feeling of hope. I for one would love some tips or just to hear, how you managed to clear some of that dead wood away, at some point, if you were ever comfortable to do so.

Well BB, it's a really tough question! And I don't by any means want to come off sounding like we have it all sorted or that we now have a perfect marriage. Still SO much to work out, but we have recovered our friendship and deep appreciation of each other, and we are getting much better at processing conflicts so that we're not constantly adding to the woodpile. Given where we've been (and the relationships we each grew up around) that feels like a wonderful achievement. I'll try to list some of the things that worked from around the time I think of as a 'turning point'.

-When things were at their worst, I felt I DID NOT want to be in the relationship any more, and also that I COULD NOT leave. I had to somehow come to terms with that feeling of 'could not' as really being a choice of mine. It seemed like a crazy illogical choice that I didn't understand and couldn't even admit to, but I had to accept it somehow enough to stop fighting it all the time and try to work with it as being from some deeper part of me that I didn't understand. Some part of me WAS choosing to be in the relationship, so I decided to at least try my hardest to get to the point where I understood what that was about.

-I decided there was a bottom line, and the bottom line was that my H had to go to individual therapy, and he had to go consistently, and that was it. I had to communicate with him consistently about it. It was a source of great conflict, even though he'd communicated some willingness to do this. Just insisting on my bottom line didn't work. I had to get to a place where I could say 'this is still the bottom line, and I'm still sticking to it' every time he faltered (a lot, for months), but also HAD to really genuinely HEAR how scared he was by it before we got any traction. I had to understand his faltering not as him undermining me or our marriage, but as an expression of great fear. I had to find ways to really communicate that I understood how scary it was, and I had to make the basis of the bottom line not control (it had become a power struggle) but care for him and for us and for getting us to a place where we were safe.

-Once he got into therapy consistently I was no longer carrying 'the whole relationship', which is what it had felt like for a long time. Ever since that point he has consistently brought more and more to the table, so I want to give him great credit for the speed of the improvements between us.

- The first point sort of indicates this: I had to understand a lot of my husband's actions as coming from the damage he's suffered, and I had to allow myself to feel about that - not fix or parent or anything like that, but just really genuinely hear his pain.

- It sort of seems paradoxical to the point above, but actually it was essential to it, and possibly the most important thing: I had to start really noticing and admitting how lost and confused and powerless and scared I was feeling. We have this pattern where he's the scared/freaked out one and I have everything under control. I was exhausted because I always 'had the answers' and he was always turning to me for them, and was taking less and less responsibility for himself. And yet my answers always had to involve what he had to do (which is sorta reasonable, because it's a two-person relationship, right?) and I had NO way to actually make him participate in that stuff. He would get anxious, I would soothe his anxiety and also at the same time kinda tell him what to do and/or blame him for the situation, he would calm down but not do anything about the situation and then we'd have a fight.

At some point I had to start saying - 'I don't know, I don't know what the answer is or what to do about this and I'm terrified'. I sort of gave up, and actually really started hearing him and accepting it when he said how powerless he was, instead of arguing with him. It WAS terrifying, because what do you do with a powerless husband? It's sort of like having powerless parents. It's horrible and I felt really like everything was futile.

But that was a real turning point. Because at some point when I started doing that I stopped instructing/blaming, and my husband actually started to feel heard. We became just two scared, powerless kids sitting in this situation together. Instead of trying to make each other fix it we started acknowledging we were lost together, and started taking comfort in each others' presence. And actually started giving each other genuine, deep comfort - really listening and feeling together.

-And THEN we got to work on the dead wood - in the calming/regulating presences of our Ts.

Well, I'm sure there are lots of other things, but I'll throw this out there. I don't know how helpful it is, because I don't know how much your relationship might be alike or different, BB, but for what it's worth, there it is.

xxJones