Thank you, Jones! I really love the sound of you two just caring for eachother and being friends and seeing eachothers soft spots...I think that is what needs to happen for me, too. It is so hard to open up to my spouse, when he is an emotionless wall with no weak spots...kwim? Whenever he has opened up just the teensiest bit, it has felt very good, like we have some real hope. But rest of the time, I am stuck. We need counseling. I just need to find the courage to make it happen... so hard, for some reason. I really don't wanna talk about this stuff with him and my T. I just really don't. ick, ick, ick...! Oh, but I have to! (But I don't WANNA!) But I HAVE to! You get the picture. So I'm just sitting on it for now. My T, like the awesome t he is being lately, has said it's ok, to wait until I am ready. He even admitted to "pushing" me but said he's backing off on that now. But the inevitable is getting closer...and I just feel like I'm digging my heels in, and why?

How were you able to overcome the fear of being vulnerable to your spouse like that? Did you just DO it, or did you wait until you felt right about it?

I'm just loving how this is turning out for you...one thing that touched me so deeply, was that in another post, you sounded just so heartbroken that your husband was going to be away during some time when you need him...and I thought, wow...you really found a friend, right in your spouse, even just since I started posting here, because I remember it wasn't always like that. Good on you Jones. I am so glad, and I just want to congratulate you, I think the whole thing is just beautiful. I know, of course it's work in progress , all the time...but you are using the tools, not just letting them sit in the corner, and that makes me wonder, can I do the same? Very encouraging stuff.

BB

You're welcome, BB - I'm glad it touches on that hope-string for you. It's true, I have found it really hard this time without my husband and that is (sort of) a new thing, and a lovely thing. Usually any separations for us are just filled with anger, conflict & resentment before, during and after, and I sort of secretly enjoy the opportunity to be undisturbed in my private self, and to indulge in my internal connections with outside attachment figures. This time I *genuinely* feel the separation, and the missing, and it hurts. Part of that has been clearing away some of the anger, and part of it has actually been starting to understand I am having abandonment feelings. I normally just switch them STRAIGHT off. I didn't understand/admit before that I am actually attached to my husband, and the reason I run to those other attachments is because I am feeling very shut out/disconnected/hurt at home. Instead before it felt like - foggy/numb feelings at home, powerful intense roller coaster connections elsewhere. Because the disconnection & hurt was unrelenting, so I didn't recognise it constantly. But BOY did I protect my private world. I still do a lot of the time.

I hear a couple of things in what you're saying about resistance to the counselling. One is anger and one is that protectiveness - protecting your private emotional world. Yeah, I agree it's a fear of being vulnerable, a fear of being hurt.

How did I get over it? Well, it comes and goes, but at some point in this recent series of couples work, I could see how switched off I was, how I was basically waiting for the relationship to die and set me free. (Which it wouldn't, but that's another bit of the story.) I sort of had to intellectually take it on faith that that deep resignation was the same fear you are talking about. That I was resigned because I didn't believe my husband could actually love me adequately, and so I was sure I would be hurt if I opened myself to him YET again (I felt like I had been let down endlessly).

So once I contemplated that it was fear (which is where you're at now) I had to basically choose whether to give it another serious try. Could I survive being hurt again? Actually, despite all my feelings of misery and exhaustion and getting too old for this and not deserving it and it's stupid and unfair etc, I decided I could survive it. I did actually take a vow, and so if I knew I could survive it it was worth trying. And trying means opening yourself to the possibility of that hurt.

And from there it's just been a case of really trying to close my eyes and step out over the brink and trust the process of therapy, really. And mostly that's about just really really admitting how I'm feeling, to myself, to my husband, to the therapists. And when I feel/say something that hurts my husband, I look at it a bit deeper, and I ask for help. And when he hurts me I try not to jump into a reaction, but to say how I feel deep down, and I ask for help. It's all I can do but for now it seems to be enough.

xxxJ

PS BB the thing I mentioned about hearing anger in your post. For me when I feel angry I react by withdrawing, switching off, turning my attention elsewhere. Deciding to BE in my relationship has not been about squashing or vanishing my anger, but about learning how to be angry and stay (emotionally) in the relationship. Still learning. It's involved at various stages noticing my anger, admitting to it, finding safe ways to express it ("I'm leaving you!" was my fave, but it's not safe or smart), staying with the feeling till it subsides, working on it on my own (trying to sort out what is old stuff and what is current stuff), FEELING it, talking talking talking, admitting I might not be 100% right, even though I'm angry, but that I can still respect how I'm feeling, learning to listen while angry... among other things!!!

Put it this way - anger is RICH ground for learning. I already see you doing at least some of that stuff, so if this is one of the things you have to work with, you are already on the way....

J

What, me...anger? Never! I have some kind of problem with anger. My anger never feels "real." It always feels like some made-up emotion I'm trying to feel in order to be a "normal" person who stands up for herself the way I see lots of women do. Like I stamp around and make a lot of noise about how unfair I think his treatment (or what I actually seem to feel as complete neglect) of me is, when deep down I don't really feel that it's unfair treatment at all, rather I feel no way, I do not deserve anything like what I *want* from him- love, tenderness, and deep respect, cherishing...no way do I *really* feel that I should be standing up for myself in communicating those needs...it's like asking for *too mcuh.* Way too much. The material equivalent: "Darling, will you please buy me a BMW with some Tiffany diamond stashed in the dashboard for me to find there as a surprise?" But every so often, (too often) I have this rage towards him that comes out of nowhere, and *that* feels real...no denying that. It's usually over something incredibly stupid and insignificant, like anything that shows up on my radar as him being "helpless" or incompetent. This helpless and incompetence just triggers my *rage* every time, and for that I feel really guilty, because it is the *one* area he is the most sensitive about, and the most easily wounded (from the past)himself. So I need to steer clear of this...but I know it needs to be looked at and dealt with...but I'm just not sure my T understands. I'm still dealing with a lot of fear that my T will shrug his shoulders at me or just pass off what I say as something unimportnat. I'm still dealing with a lot of fear that he is bored with me, bored with my problems, and thinks I am just the world's biggest whiney baby, always whining about all my insignificant problems, why can't I just get it together, can't I see how good I have it, other people are the ones who are *really* suffereing and are the ones who *really* deserve his care and attention...certainly not me, for my puny, pathetic little problems. I guess I need to bring all this to my T before we start marriage counseling together, because I really don't *want* to hurt my husband here...until I get into that triggered place of rage...then I actually do... And I need to just get away from him fast before I will say something terrible that I will regret (if I ever let myself think about it) later. So, yeah, anger...rich ground for learning, that seems like a pretty helpful way to view it, instead of my fear of being angry...hmm, maybe that is what it is...maybe I am actually afraid to be genuinely angry.I think my rage could easily annihilate my husband, and I'm not so sure it is even about him

Thanks Jones, again...You're giving me a LOT to think about and ponder...sorry this is such a musing kind of ramble. I've been in shut down space-out lately, so it was very good to read this, and connect with what you are saying here.

BB

Jones, I too am intrigued by what you are saying about anger being rich ground for learning...just not sure how to apply it yet, but I loved reading these posts because it sounds like where I need to go with it. Currently I react to anger the way you did, withdrawing, switching off, turning my attention elsewhere...but the anger just seethes and bubbles under the surface. Every once in a GREAT while I erupt and spew anger all over the place. SG, the toxic volcano. Isn't my husband such a lucky man?

And BB, I could have written what you wrote, especially this about what seems to trigger the anger, and what the dilemma over expressing it feels like:

quote:

This helpless and incompetence just triggers my *rage* every time, and for that I feel really guilty, because it is the *one* area he is the most sensitive about, and the most easily wounded (from the past)himself.

quote:

maybe I am actually afraid to be genuinely angry.I think my rage could easily annihilate my husband, and I'm not so sure it is even about him

Things are really getting worse between us...the silence, the distance, my anger and annoyance and contempt...this weekend is tough. On the positive side, though, I've had several good moments with my daughters the last couple of days...moments where I've behaved like the kind of mom I would have wanted, and I've seen my girls respond. So things are not all bad.

Now who's rambling? Think I'll stop here...thanks again Jones and BB.

SG

I am so confused and frustrated...I hope no one minds if I vent about the communication problem in my marriage. This is long, but I don't think it is triggering...there is nothing like violence or abuse going on...it is the pain of what is missing that is driving me crazy. And of course it is hard to tell if the "what" that's missing is something that can be reasonably expected in marriage...reasonably expected in this marriage of these two people in particular...or if I'm expecting a kind of connection that I missed with my parents and now must grieve to get past it. Anyway most of this is stuff that needs to be addressed in therapy...and I know this isn't a replacement for therapy...I'm just feeling hopeless right now because it seems this week we both have reached a new low in shutting down and giving up...and we have a family vacation coming up next week, right before our next appointment with the couples T. So thanks in advance for letting me vent here...I'm just trying to hang on until the 21st.

The best I can describe the problem is that we do not understand each other at all. I know facts about him, and he knows facts about me, but there seems to be a complete lack of depth or feeling or passion. It feels two-dimensional. This is how it has always been between me and my husband. I mean from the first date. It's like there is no bringing us together, absolutely no natural rhythm to the conversation, as if we're dancing two completely different dances. And when we try to step into each other's, all we do is crash into each other.

I've been describing it like this to every T we've seen and so far no one has said, oh, I know what the problem is. They just look at me funny. And this problem we have, this is just when we talk about logistical topics, like what did you do at work today, what are we doing this weekend, did you make that doctor's appointment, etc. Talking about more complicated topics like parenting and money management is extremely difficult and generally avoided, unless it's to decide which one of us will address a certain issue - and then we address it alone. Talking about anything abstract or spiritual, ideas, dreams, etc. is just not possible, there is not the depth of understanding there to make it possible. Attempts just result in confusion.

And it's not that we "disagree". Disagreement would imply some sort of connection, some sort of understanding, from which to offer a contrasting viewpoint. It's like we don't even know what the other person is talking about at all. We apparently have such different ways of thinking that we might as well be speaking two totally different languages. It is profound confusion. Not even emotional, just frustrating. I'm not even sure what each of us is looking for, to tell you the truth. I have said to T's, for us to have an argument would be considered progress.

We've even been to a marriage seminar that focused on the differences in communication. I've read lots of books. Right now for work I'm putting together a class on listening skills. And I understand what I'm reading and hearing, at least factually. I can identify these characteristics in my relationships with other people. For example, when listening, I can see pretty easily that my ex-T is a "splitter" and I'm a "lumper", and it is probably one of the reasons we were not communicating well. It has to do with how we organize incoming information. Lumpers look for similarities and "lump" like things together, while splitters look for differences and set things apart. So a splitter might sound to a lumper like they disagree with almost everything that is being said, when really that may not be true (and he really did sound like that to me...but seemed surprised when I brought it up). And a lumper might sound to a splitter like they are agreeing with most of what is being said, when really there could be serious differences of opinion that go unchallenged because the lumper misses or minimizes them, being focused more on the similarities...which can result in big misunderstandings later on (and I know I did this, thinking we were on the same page because I was seeing similarities, and obviously we weren't).

Anyway it strikes me as really weird that I can identify this dynamic between me and my former T, based on conversations that took place almost one year ago! So why can I not even begin to comprehend the problem between me and my husband?

When I've been away from him for several hours, my good intentions start coming back, and eventually I will try again. But when I call, like I did just now, I get "talked at" instead of "talked with". There is no room for me in the conversation. He just gives me a rundown of whatever, and if he asks me a question, he guesses at the answer, then continues as if I'm the one who said it. When he pauses, he fills the spaces with meaningless sounds as if to "hold his place" until the next complete thought comes.

I thought I had the answer when I identified the same pattern in his communication with his mother. She does exactly the same thing, talks non-stop, just kind of a running commentary. And my husband literally has to struggle and fight to get a word in edgewise. She does the same to me, and I've really got to push if I want to be heard, because she'll run right over our voices otherwise, as if we hadn't even said anything. I've spent years listening to this (and just for the record - this is no judgement of my MIL, simply a fact - I adore her and am incredibly indebted to her for so many things - so don't think I'm trashing her here, I'm so not). And I've spent those same years getting frustrated and shutting down when my husband and I try to talk, because he does exactly the same thing to me. To make matters worse, I am not by nature an aggressive conversationalist (the only reason my posts get so long is because there is no one to shut me up! IRL I'm very easy to interrupt). So I've resorted to the answer of "fine" when he asks how I am, because I know that's all the time I have before he takes back the conversation.

It's only recently I thought of these two things together...and the light bulb came on.

Now I have told him before that the reason I shut down is because he cuts me off, but recently I included the connection I thought I saw, that he's developed this pattern with his mother, and is using it with me, where it is not needed, so I'm getting run over. I didn't do it calmly...the volcano of frustration was spewing again...but I didn't say it unkindly, either, just really expressed my loneliness and pain and frustration at not feeling connected or heard by him ever. The next couple of conversations were a really nice change...one day he came home and I was gardening, and he asked a few questions, and he let me talk, and he seemed to listen. It felt great. I told him the next day how much that meant to me, that it was exactly what I needed to feel an emotional connection, that back and forth listening and talking, not just one-sided. And the first couple of half-hour talking assignments seemed to go well, too.

But somehow we've backslid, and now we're back to the same thing on all fronts. We only talk when absolutely necessary. I listen, he talks, I shut down, he walks away. And for the last several days it seems like he doesn't even care anymore. Why does he forget so easily? And why does it take me blowing my stack before we do something?

The couples T we started seeing evaluated the current state of our marriage using John Gottman's "Sound Relationship House" model. There are seven levels that need to be built from the foundation up. The foundation is to build "love maps" of each other's inner psychological world. I listen and try to understand him but I can't seem to do it. I know he sees things I do, and things I like, but I do not feel listened to or understood on a personal level at all. I know he likes being married, but I really do not see any evidence at all that he likes being married to me in particular. I feel like a placeholder, a cardboard cutout wife. I am just feeling really hopeless about this...if we can't even lay the foundation, how will we build the other six levels of this "house"? And this is ten years into our marriage.

Jones, you said at one time you felt like you were "carrying the relationship"...oh can I ever relate to that, when my husband sees it faltering again, and does nothing...and I know if I did nothing, it would be over, and he would let it be over. And sometimes I am so ready for it to be over. You also said something about having a bottom line of your husband going to his own therapy, and really having to push him to keep doing it. That may become my bottom line too, I really wish my husband would get his own therapy, not because I think there is anything terribly "wrong" with him, or that everything is his "fault"...I certainly don't think that, if anything so much of it I see as my fault. I just wish he was working on his own stuff too, whatever that is, so we could both be in this together, we could have a common "language" to work from. I admire you for having the perseverance to keep pushing. And for having the compassion to see where your husband's resistance was really coming from, his fear. I don't see that in my husband, yet...in fact sometimes I don't think he's really into me at all, and what I'm seeing isn't resistance due to fear, but lack of motivation due to apathy.

Hopefully resuming therapy will shed more light on this. That one video the couples T recorded was very illuminating, and I know he plans on doing more of that. Thank you for listening...

SG

SG want to give you a big hug because you’re in such a shitty situation with your H right now. Just about everything in your post about the whole communication/miscommunication thing resonates with me - right down to seeing how patterns of communicating run in family members.

On a positive note - it sounds as if your H does take on board things you tell him and the things you’ve both learned in couples therapy and makes an effort to adjust how he talks to you. But it’s like he hasn’t quite understood the reasons behind it - that he’s doing things differently at times because he accepts he ought to, without knowing WHAT it is he’s doing (not doing) that’s causing the problems.

This reminds me of an instance with my ex-T where I had been going on and on and on at him about not asking me questions, about not letting me even finish sentences before he jumped in with (usually irrelevant or annoyingly general) very wordy comments. At one point he finally said he got what I’d been on about, that he’d identified it as something in HIM that was causing this bad communication and he started modifying the way he was with me - started asking me questions, would stop himself when responding to me and checking whether I’d actually finished talking etc. BUT it took him all of about two sessions to revert to previous pattern and at the same time it was so obvious that his modifications were not natural, he was doing it because he thought he OUGHT to do it and it was clear that he hadn’t really understood how and why what he had been doing was making communication between us so difficult.

What I’m trying to say is that your H is obviously aware of needing to modify how he talks to you, but is not clear on why or how and therefore reverts to his normal patterns because he has no internal sense of how the way he does talk to you is affecting you. I wonder if you can put your head down and hold on until the couples therapy starts again? I suspect that the longer you go to that therapy and the more you have the couples T directing your ‘homework’ and checking on how it’s going, the more your H is going to become aware of the dynamics of your miscommunications (trying to find a safe word to use there lol I’d like to say, become aware of his massive failures in listening to and hearing you!)

Oh I’m talking too much again - really just wanted to say please hang in there, you’ve been making so much effort to sort things with your H, it’s bound to be difficult for him to become aware of his faulty patterns yet it does seem as if he’s been willing to try and change - that’s something to hold onto?

((((( SG ))))

LL

Thanks, LL, it helps a lot to be understood (although I'm sorry for the reason you do - I remember when you went through that with your ex-T). You've got it exactly, the changes are in response to what I've said, he's just "following directions"...I feel in some ways like I'm training a puppy. And it is this way anytime I ask for what I (think I) need...he changes at first, but then reverts back soon after. What I really crave is intimacy and emotional connection. I could put up with a lot in the way of disruptions and repairs, if only I had the sense that there was some kind of true desire or affection or connection on some level. But this...I don't know.

Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to make him into someone else, trying to change him too much. Which is why I'm wondering if I'm expecting too much, if some of it is what I am still looking for from my parents...that sense of being seen and understood without having to try so hard.

But yes, I will put my head down and hang on until the couples therapy starts again...I just felt like I needed to vent this somewhere...thank you for your encouragement LL.

SG

I'm so glad that you felt able to vent about it here, SG...and there is SO much in your post that I relate to and would like to comment on. Unfortunately, it will have to wait until tonight or tomorrow because my h is hanging around making me feel guilty for spending time on the computer this morning.
So I better go right now, sadly I don't have time to respond right now. I am so sorry that things are so hard right now, SG. It is the worst thing in the world when the person you live with, who is supposed to be a support and help and love you, is instead consumed with getting their own needs met, and can't even see you. SUCH a difficult, confusing, guilt-inducing situation. I am in the middle of it too and it is truly awful. I said to my T "I can't make him love me, I can't ask him to love me as much as I need him to, it is too much." He said I need to remove the words "too much" from my vocabulary. Of course you and I are different, come from different situations, backgrounds, etc, but I suspect that these problems play out in marriages in similar ways. I think it is so, so hard to ask for "more" when we feel like we do not deserve *anything.* I guess that is probably one of the main things we are in therapy to overcome. Ok, I better go, but I will have more to say later....

hug,SG, prayer,

BB

Hi SG,
What you were saying made me think of one really strong element in my marital therapy which ended up being key to our communication and marriage getting better. I really think you're on to something noticing a historical pattern and how your husband's behavior reverts so quickly.

One of the most surprising things both my husband and I learned (slowly, painfully, and with much confusion I might add!) to our shock, was how much of our reactions were NOT to each other but to our pasts. Patterns of communication and how we reacted were triggering each other so that we would see our spouse as thinking, feeling, and believing things (based on expectations from our pasts) that they really weren't doing and we would react to those. And the other one was doing the same thing. Hence the confusion. It was like four people were talking at once, me and my past, and him and his past but each of us could only hear three of the people at a time and could NEVER hear one of the participants. And it would get so confusing and as we affectionately call it "swirly" where the conversation would go around and around, and become more and more confusing until we couldn't remember what it was we were actually talking about. And neither of us would feel heard.

That's where our therapist was key. He would listen to both of us and help us tease out what was from our pasts. And we had to learn (again painfully) that we were both doing a LOT of assuming about what the other person was thinking and feeling instead of listening and believing them. I mean, there were times, especially in the beginning where we would ask the other person how they felt and when they answerered, literally say, "no you don't, you feel this way!"

Now the thing is, it's really hard to change these patterns even when you understand them, because like all our dysfunctional behaviors, there was a good reason for them at one time. We were both desparately trying to keep ourselves safe, but often at each other's or the relationship's expense. If your husband hasn't yet looked at that, he can only hold your needs in mind so long before being overwhelmed by whatever need it is that drives him to behave that way in the first place. It's like an alchoholic trying to stop drinking without putting anything else in place to help handle the pain that was being held down with the drinking. The problem isn't so much the drinking as it is the need to deal with the underlying issues. I think the same thing may be happening with your husband. He needs to understand what need of his is being met by NOT listening to you, and figure out how to take care of that need so that he is free to listen to you. I just wanted to throw that out there in case it sheds some light on your situation. But as usual, feel free to toss it out if it doesn't fit.

And last but not least, can I send you hugs? (((((SG)))))). What you are describing sounds so incredibly lonely. I've felt that horrible loneliness that is made worse because you're in a relationship so you're not supposed to BE lonely right? I have immense respect for how hard you're fighting for your marriage despite the considerable difficulties you're facing.

AG

Ok, I'm back...SG, AG said it all so well, and I'm not just stroking you AG, it's the truth!
We in the Shrink Forum salute you, our fearless leader! (Just teasing you AG, cause I know you feel shy about us feeling that way, but seriously, it is true that we feel blessed to have your insight here )

quote:

there is nothing like violence or abuse going on...it is the pain of what is missing that is driving me crazy. And of course it is hard to tell if the "what" that's missing is something that can be reasonably expected in marriage...reasonably expected in this marriage of these two people in particular...or if I'm expecting a kind of connection that I missed with my parents and now must grieve to get past it.

I used to try and provoke my husband because now I think I wanted this missing connection so badly that even anger from him would be preferable to feeling the neglect. Sometimes what is missing can hurt even more than outright abuse, I have found. (I do not say to minimize the terrible pain of any kind of abuse in marriage, no, not at all, it is a very terrible pain and must be dealt with as a matter of utmost priority) But there is just something about having no emotional impact on a person at all or only a kind of clingy or helpless emotional impact that tends to suck us dry in a really insidious, subtle and harder to recongnize way, perhaps. And yeah, I guess it needs to be dealt with in therapy, and I really applaud your committment to working on your marriage, SG. That takes tremendous resolve, and That is so good of you not to give up.

quote:

Talking about more complicated topics like parenting and money management is extremely difficult and generally avoided, unless it's to decide which one of us will address a certain issue - and then we address it alone.

Yeah, us too...sometimes we can talk about stuff like this, but only if I initiate, lead and then end the conversation, all while quietly encouraging and validating his input...almost as a therapist would, come to think of it. I do this as a matter of course, but I am starting to find, yuck, it just makes me feel yucky, because I'm not getting anything back interms of him saying "Well, what do you think? I want to hear your thoughts." Unless it is for him to be told how he is supposed to think, by me, then he wants to hear my thoughts. So, I guess, is that carrying the relationship? Ugh for lack of a better way to say it, I would like to be married to a man. A grown up one who can sometimes, tell ME what to do in a kind and loving way. hm. I wonder if that is that asking for too much? I suspect it's not, but I don't really know.

quote:

one day he came home and I was gardening, and he asked a few questions, and he let me talk, and he seemed to listen. It felt great. I told him the next day how much that meant to me, that it was exactly what I needed to feel an emotional connection, that back and forth listening and talking, not just one-sided. And the first couple of half-hour talking assignments seemed to go well, too.

Well, if this could happen once, than it can happen again and does seem hopeful. He Was willing to meet your needs in this case, at least this one time, so that means there is something good here...maybe you just need to find the right "combination" to make this happen more and more frequently. My T always says I need to ask my h for what I need "humbly, from a genuinely needy heart." But I have not found the courage to do such a thing very often at all, I am quite afraid of receiving a loving response from my h, I realize...to become so vulnerable, oh I am freaked out and it feels icky, wrong. hm- is it love I fear? Is this just me, or do you relate at all to this, SG?

quote:

I just wish he was working on his own stuff too, whatever that is, so we could both be in this together, we could have a common "language" to work from.

This makes so much sense...then you can be together in dealing with whatever pain you must endure in life...together you can deal with anything that comes your way! I hope this doesn't trigger you, but I have to tell you that the reason I know this works beautifully is that my h and I have on occasion had this sense of connectedness even in painful things, and it is really wonderful, anything is possible in such a state of love. But it is so hard, we plummeted out of that again and again, to very low placeds, only to peek occasionally at what might be possible for us, if we could find that magic combination that opens the door to love. So hard, I keep losing the key. Right now I feel like I don't even want to find it, and I can't figure, what that is all about, and I feel ashamed of myself for that. I admire your resolve to work on your marriage, I seem to just let it be whatever it is and hope my husband will do something to rescue it... but I know he won't so I will soon have to make it happen just rationally- even though emotionally it is hard to care about doing something to save it. SG, it doesn't seem like you are just venting...you have some serious things that you are considering here. I hope so much, you get the answers and learn the tools to connect and find the love you deserve in your marriage...it is no hopless, SG. There is always hope, no matter what level of the house you are on, well, you have just begun to build, maybe only the first shovel of dirt has been scooped out of the foundation...yet little by little you and your h can dig the foundation and then lay it, and slowly build, and then add electricity and plumbing...soon you may even begin to decorate the interior! But it has to start someshere...hm, I think I just gave myself the pep talk, too...maybe I should email my T and ask for a couples session...what am I so afraid of? If you can do, that maybe I will try. too!

Hug, sorry so lengthy,

BB

I have found this to be very interesting. We tried couples t for a while but it was a disaster. First I picked the t and my P thought they were biased. Then I let her pick and she basically picked a "momo" who just sat there and let us argue for 30 minutes. I have resolved myself to knowing that I don't think I am the relationship type. I want one but not really. Could take it or leave it. I guess there must be a deeper reason for it but I figure it would just make me feel worse if I started digging again. So, I kind of go with the flow, try to keep everything calm, and just be there.

(((((BB))))) Actually, thank you, I really needed to hear that right now.

((((BB)))) ((((SG)))) and ((((all who need an extra hug in their marriage/relationship))))

starfish

I've just come back to read this after a few days with other things and it's so full of interesting stuff. Thanks to you all for sharing about these relationships. So much to say and I don't know where to start.

Yes, that feeling of 'carrying' the relationship, taking all the responsibility is terribly terribly lonely. For me it is a hotline to the rage. It feels like I am little, all alone in a really dark world, trying frantically to figure everything out and make it all work and make everything safe and okay and no one will ever come and help me and no one CAN come and help me. And then I turn around and this person I thought would be my partner, my helper, is just *riding on my coattails*, cruising on all this frantic work that comes straight out of my panic and fear. The rage in those moments is blinding.

BB, I understand you saying you have to get away at those moments of rage because you're scared you'll say something terrible. I have been there, also very, very frightened that I will physically harm him, I have to just get away as fast as I can, and this totally triggers deep abandonment things in him which is a really unsafe blend for us, because he can't/won't let me get away. I am not usually a self-harmer but I have once or twice hurt myself in those states in trying to stop myself hurting him. That feeling that you could annihilate this person is very strong, powerful, real and terrifying. SG, hugs for you in this really rough time with feeling this rage too.

This has shifted a lot for us. I wish I could give the ABC of how we shifted it, but I'm actually not sure. Certainly we both understand a lot more of what's going on with ourselves and each other in those times when we're being triggered - he KNOWS now that I want to get away from him because I'm scared of hurting him, not because I don't want him, and that makes him less likely to push me.

But I think something that has really been important for me is making the connection - emotionally, not intellectually - between my rage and my deep fear. That black world of being responsible for everything and it's way beyond me, like being a little kid and having to drive the car home. Terrifying.

I was listening to us talking today (we've had my mother with us) and I heard how much more of that fear I bring to him now, how much more of my doubt and worry and anxiety about little things I express. Stuff in my working life, not even necessarily couple stuff. I say it *early* and I tell him the feelings, rather than buttoning up, 'coping', and burying those waves of fear, turning it into grumpiness and toughness and resentment and loneliness. And lo and behold he is doing SO much comforting and reassuring and supporting, just incidentally in our day to day. It is truly amazing to me how much this has changed. In incredibly tangible ways - as in, he has just got a job for the first time in a looong time - so suddenly that burden is no longer mine alone too. I wonder, BB, if this is the kind of thing - I mean going to him like this in the hard feelings - is part of what your T says so beautifully about asking for what you need "humbly, from a genuinely needy heart.""

Obviously my H has been doing so much growing for himself, too, and I know I am really lucky in that. And it's been such a complicated rollercoaster to get this far. I can't explain all the communicating we've done to get here but I do want to write about it to say it is possible - and also to quantify it for myself.

Something else that's been really important for me is actually really seeing he is another person, just as hurt and needy and lost as I am. I'm ashamed to say I have plenty of times got into the habit of just seeing him as what he does or doesn't do for me. That is how I was treated as a kid too, as just a function, and it made me sick when I saw that I was doing it myself. I don't want to imply that anyone else is doing that - we are all different - but I HAD to see it for myself. And although that was painful (and still is every time I catch myself doing it) it also was beautiful because it actually restored my partner to me. Another person.

It hurts a lot to feel like you are the one carrying everything, but it also hurts a lot to feel useless, to feel unnecessary and unimportant and trapped in your own worthlessness, and unable to even speak about it. Most of us probably relate to those feelings and I know that when I started to really hear those unspoken feelings in my husband, to understand the potency of those child-wounds and to relate that to my own experience, my heart thawed. Painfully. And then I could give him my tenderness. And then there were times when he looked at me and I knew he felt HEARD and I felt things shift in him.

BB, I'm proud of you for braving the idea of couples work again! Good for you - it really does sound like you are ready.

SG, I feel a lot for your pain in this. It is SO hard to get through. I want to back what LL is saying here - that you ARE on the way, you ARE putting the work in - something will give, one way or another. And there is some reason that the two of you are hanging in there, even though it's so rough. You fulfill something for each other, and whatever that glue is, it is a starting point. It is an absolutely vital starting point.

Love to all. I second SF's hugs above.

Thank you, Blackbird, Attachment Girl, Smiley, Starfish, and Jones. There is so much here I want to respond to but I've been running around the forums tonight trying to respond to all the great threads people have been starting and now I am just out of time. This one is taking me longer to absorb and process but I deeply appreciate your responses (especially since I really do feel I was just ranting) and just wanted to say thank you so much. I'll be back!

SG

Hi AG,

Thanks for the hugs!!!

quote:

AG: Patterns of communication and how we reacted were triggering each other so that we would see our spouse as thinking, feeling, and believing things (based on expectations from our pasts) that they really weren't doing and we would react to those. And the other one was doing the same thing. Hence the confusion. It was like four people were talking at once, me and my past, and him and his past but each of us could only hear three of the people at a time and could NEVER hear one of the participants.

Yes I will bet this is what we are doing, too. Only it's very "quiet" because we both react by isolating. I think that couples T is going to have to practically drag stuff out of us...at first, anyway.

When you said you could never hear one of the participants, did you mean the other person's past, or did the one not being heard vary?

I KNOW I'm doing that assuming thing about what he's thinking and feeling. But it looks real to me. I'll see him behaving a certain way, and it seems so obvious to me what it says about how he's feeling. So sometimes I'll ask him if he's feeling that way, but he'll deny it, and then change the subject. So I've just decided I must be seeing his unconscious stuff. But if he won't talk about it, how do we get past it?

He definitely assumes all kinds of things about what I'm thinking and feeling. He's told me about it several times. I really hate it when he does that and wish he would ask me. I would tell him if he asked. And I don't know he's assuming until it's way after the fact and there's an obvious misunderstanding. It's like he puts more value in being able to "figure me out", kind of like the resistance many men supposedly have for not wanting to ask for directions when they're lost.

I hope our couples T can "tease" all these assumptions out of both of us like your T did.

quote:

AG: He needs to understand what need of his is being met by NOT listening to you, and figure out how to take care of that need so that he is free to listen to you.

This really got me intrigued and I think you are right. Ever since I read it, I've been watching him, trying to figure out what need is being met.

Thanks for sharing all this, AG, it gives me a lot of hope right now. Only eight more days until we see the couples T again!

Sorry I have to go right now...I will be back to respond to everyone else later.

SG

This might be the completely wrong question to ask, but is it worth it??? I separated from my ex husband about 4 ago and this year the divorce finally came through. I had so wanted to find a resolution with him, and that could have included separation, but not a drastic closing off as he did. Now I find myself deeply longing for male company and somebody I can be intimate with on all levels. Do you think it's really possible, or am I just chasing after an impossible dream and past needs? After all it's not about having kids. Might just be better to stay single and not invite more heartache and trouble into my life. Or at least wait until I'm further down the therapy road. My T has been telling me not all problems end in disaster but I can't feel that. What do I do?????

Sorry, it feels a bit selfish just asking this without contributing to your stories, but I'm clueless.

SB

Hi all,

We FINALLY had our next session with the couples T and it went great. This is a long post, just so you have fair "warning".

We made a little small talk at first. DH (Dear Husband) asked T about his vacation. He spent the first three weeks at a conference/seminar/class on infant attachment ( ) and talked a little bit about how much can be inferred about attachment at such an early age. Then the last week his daughter had her tonsils and adenoids out so he was at home comforting her, and in-between coming into the office to do some work. I didn't say this, but I was kinda thinking, and the "vacation" part would be where??

Then T asked how we've been doing. Silence. Then I mentioned about how the homework had gone well the first few times, but then came to a grinding halt. Said I felt immensely irritated right before we would sit down to talk, but could not figure out why. DH said he felt frustrated because he thought we were supposed to talk about whatever we wanted, I said I thought we were supposed to talk about ourselves. T said it was good that we tried but maybe it was too much to start with. But he wasn't mad at us, just said good job for trying.

Then he asked what we wanted to talk about today. More silence, long one this time. Then he said he could take charge if we wanted him to. Now I am feeling stupid, here we are wanting marriage counseling and I can't even talk. I was thinking there is so much to talk about I can't decide.

Then DH jumped in and brought up an incident that happened on our vacation. He said he knows this isn't about me and him, exactly, but it bothers him when our oldest daughter gets so emotional over things that don't go her way. And the example he used was something that happened when we went to IHOP.

Our daughter had suggested going there because she wanted to try these Cinna-Minion things (and we had seen the movie Despicable Me the day before). But when we ordered, the server told us they didn't have any. Now to our daughter, this is a BIG DEAL because she was really looking forward to this. I told the server we were going to need a minute. Now if our daughter had gone ballistic with a screaming fit, that would be one thing. But that's not at all what she did, in fact that's not really her style ever. What happened is she just got these really big tears in her eyes and hung her head and quietly said, but I was really looking forward to those.

Now this type of thing, I can totally handle. And I think I did handle it, really really well. And I really think our daughter did, too. I put my arm around her and comforted her, said yes this really is disappointing, I know how much you were looking forward to these, and so were the rest of us. Then the server actually came back with the manager, I think because she felt so bad about our daughter's tears, and he explained very very nicely how these things have been so popular that the place that makes them can't even keep up, and they've been out of Cinna-Minions for three weeks.

After he left I proposed to my daughter, you know I bet we could make our OWN Cinna-Minions at home, make them just the way we want, with extra cream cheese frosting, etc. And then she really perked up at that idea and totally accepted the situation and everything went great for the rest of the meal. Now I know maybe it sounds ridiculous that she was so upset over something like no Cinna-Minions, but I think what was important was how we helped her handle her feelings. And I know I didn't do it perfectly...but I think it's a lot better to recognize them and help her through them, than to tell her what DH wanted to tell her.

Which he said in our session, he wanted to say, just order something else, it's no big deal. And how he gets frustrated with trying to deal with her emotions. And our oldest daughter is VERY emotional, very passionate and dramatic. But I don't think she does it for effect, her emotions really are very big. And her personality is extrovert all the way, baby, so she is GOING to express them.

DH also talked about how he got frustrated with our girls in the pool. I was not able to go swimming this time, so it was just him and the girls. He said he got frustrated because they kept jumping on him and wanting him to throw them repeatedly, when he would rather toss a ball back and forth or something like that. He feels overwhelmed sometimes because they always seem to want more, more, more. They often seem not grateful for what they do get.

T started asking him more questions, trying to understand and pull more information out of DH to find out how he was feeling. And I could see DH was struggling to define that, and also feeling a bit attacked by T for feeling overwhelmed, which he thinks is at least partly justified. So I jumped in and said, you know, I feel overwhelmed too by their demands sometimes. In some ways I do think this is a boundary issue, in that we don't clearly define expectations or limits. I happened to handle the IHOP crisis well that time, and I wasn't in the pool, but I think I understand what DH is saying about feeling overwhelmed, I feel that way lots of the time too. It really does seem that they are always asking for more, even jumping ahead to "later today" or "what are we doing tomorrow", trying to pin us down and make sure there is a lineup of entertainment for them. Maybe they need more structure, more expectations. I said I do think we need to help them develop a sense of gratitude and limits but I don't think we know how to do that in a way that does not seem punitive.

So then T tried to bring it back to what does this mean for us as a couple. He brought up the Circle of Security diagram on his screen, and explained the "dance" of attachment as seen in children. And he explained it really well I thought, lots of the finer points. And then it was easier to see what he had been trying to get at with his questions for DH...he was trying to point out the girls' need for connection, and how we were reacting to that from the dances we learned as kids. But I think it was too big a leap for us at first.

First he explained the attachment dance in relation to some of what we are seeing in our children, going out to explore, needing to be welcomed back, needing to be delighted in. And then he drew the connection to the dance that DH and I learned as children, which is a result of this dance going wrong with the caregiver not responding to our needs the way we needed them to, and that we are still doing that dance today. Then he showed us another diagram, this time of the "avoidant" dance, which I recognized IMMEDIATELY. That we want to be welcomed "back" but we don't think we will be, so we send out a message that we are going back out to explore when what we really need is to be welcomed. I wish I had asked for a copy of it so I could explain it better. Anyway what I really loved is to recognize these finer points in what we are actually doing.

In fact what was SO COOL is that he gave us new and simpler "homework" this time and when combined with what we talked about this has already made a very profound shift in how I am seeing and interpreting this. Actually it has injected a whole lot of HUMOR into the situation and it is a relief. He said whenever we "meet up" again after having been apart (even when we've been in different rooms), we are to stop what we are doing and welcome the other person with a big hug and a kiss. He even made us practice this once before we left our session.

When we got home, I started doing this. And I noticed very quickly that as SOON as DH would hear me coming into the room, he started moving away...as if to AVOID contact with me!

And here is what it made me realize. When I am away from DH, I definitely develop a yearning to reconnect and be welcomed back. But he SUCKS ROYALLY at welcoming me back. In fact most of the time when I initiate contact, he actually starts to physically move away, AS HE IS TALKING TO ME. And if it is on the phone, he moves away from me intellectually, shuts me down, speaks for me, and then dismisses me. And it would totally completely piss me off, and my instant reaction would be, fine, a**hole, move away, I'll move away from you first, f*** you, I don't need you either, in fact I'll move away MORE, how do you like them apples. And I totally believe we engage in this ridiculous competition where we try to outdo each other in terms of not needing each other. I was thinking we don't fight...oh yes we do! It is the very quiet fight of two avoidants...but the silence is very misleading, it is cutthroat, baby.

So far I have been the only one to initiate the "homework" (except for just a minute ago, DH initiated with me - Yay!!). But it's not pissing me off like it normally would, at least not yet, because now that I see it as this silly kind of "fight", I'm thinking it is hysterical and really fun to tease him about it. And our kids think we're going crazy, BTW. But they are getting in on the hugs and kisses too so it's okay.

So...I think I am really crazy about this T. He has a very kind and gentle way of explaining things, a way of guiding the conversation without being manipulative...it is pretty wonderful to have someone else "steering". Especially after feeling like we have been casting about in the ocean for so long with no one at the wheel. And I think he is losing his wariness of me. I think I scared him when I asked him about attachment, like maybe I would be a really obnoxious and boorish jerk who would already "know" everything and try to tell him how to do his job. And I work with someone like that, in fact just last week I was ready to punch his lights out, I even pulled my boss into a conference room so I could vent about it...so I have been REALLY careful not to give any indication whatsoever that I have ever heard any of this. No smiling or nodding when he is explaining, no jumping in to say I've read anything, nothing at all, just paying attention and letting him be the therapist which is a RELIEF because that's exactly what I wanted and needed! And it isn't hard anyway, because a lot of it, I haven't heard, and I haven't had anyone point out for us where it is playing out in our relationship. I just really love how this is working out. And now we are on the schedule every week for a while.

Thanks for letting me give you this really long update!

SG

SG that is great! I really like how what was a dance of deadly serious intent (you and H enacting avoiding each other) has now become so clearly a past pattern that you are able to recognize and be aware of it as it happens. That’s no mean feat!

I know for me it makes it so much more manageable and comprehensible if I have some kind of theoretical framework within which to see my actions, thoughts and feelings - makes it seem less of something personally wrong with me and more of something I can accept as ‘damage’ and find ways to undo. Lol it’s funny that your couple T was pointing out avoidant attachment styles with you - I’m in the middle of chapter 5 of Attachment in Psychotherapy and what you were describing I actually understood (as I bet you did too - I like that you’re biting your lip and not letting on that you’ve read the entire library of books on psychology - so you can let your T just do his job (unfortunately for me, because I’ve read so extensively I can pick holes in what Ts do and say too easily - like - but that’s not what they say in such and such a book no T you’ve got it wrong there ).

I’m also pleased you like and trust this T - that bodes really well for your marriage. It’s great that your H is involved in this too - I should think that with you both having an avoidant style if it was just down to you to do all the repairing and trying to resolve things you’d really have a hard time of it.

(I liked the idea so much of kissing and hugging whenever you come back together after a separation even from different rooms, I was tempted to suggest it to my H - but of course he wouldn’t see the point of it, at best he’d just do it to humour me and it would be me the one always having to initiate it. But I love the idea! Hope you can keep up the fun part of it).

Way to go SG

LL

SG:

Wow! Sounds like you've got an excellent T for your marriage counsellor! I'm so happy for you. You and your DH sound so much like me and mine I could have practically written a lot of the stuff in your post about the avoidance issues. And how you have boundary issues with your kids? Us too. Tough stuff. I feel like things will never get fixed because I can't even fix stuff with myself. Anyway, I'm super happy that you are getting somewhere now, and going every week should help move things along quicker. Yay!! Good to read such a positive post!

MTF

Wow. SG, sounds like progress is being made...that is so awesome!!! I am glad to see the way it seems you and your husband are able to approach eachother like this, that is great...and tha tyou are able to see what is going on with him, and it seems, be less hurt by it because you are able to see where it is coming from? Well, that is the stuff of healing, I'm pretty sure. Keep up the excellent work, SG...and keep us posted on it too, as it is immensely encouraging!

(((((SG))))

BB

Just an update...

The couples therapy seemed to be going well. We’ve been going weekly, getting new “homework” each week, practicing turning toward each other according to the “circle of security” I mentioned on another thread. In one of the earlier sessions, I tried to bring up some on-going problems in our relationship, but the couples T said we were just working on getting us really good at comforting each other, putting “deposits” in our relationship “account”, and that we’d get to the problem-solving later. But the last two sessions, our couples T ended 15 minutes early and I’ve been feeling worried about that…feeling not welcome, afraid he wants to get rid of us (or maybe just me?). Also hearing other indications that he feels the therapy is almost over. I talked to my individual T and a close friend about this and they were both great about it and said I should definitely bring it up in today’s appointment. But before I could do that, it came up by itself…and I’m feeling really upset about it. I have an email in to my individual T for an extra appointment, but wanted to share here too. So thanks for reading if you are reading this, I really appreciate it!!

When we got there today, our T asked us how our relationship was going. We said it was about the same, we were still doing our "homework", but we'd gotten into a tiff on the way in (we had been talking about the weekly dates we’re supposed to be having, and DH had made another “joke” about how he doesn’t like having to take the lead on setting those up, and I felt hurt about that). So we described it, and then worked it out with our T giving a lot of coaching on how to do it along the way. It felt very unnatural, and I still don't think we addressed how DH actually feels about taking the lead...but we did confirm that he wants to spend time with me, and we had some nice hugs, so it was definitely a good thing.

Then our T said, well, that's such a positive note, what do you say we end today's session on that? That was the 20-minute mark, at 3:30 (it was 3:10 when we sat down).

I just sat there, stunned. The look on my face alone was enough for him to then backpedal and say, it's just a suggestion, not written in stone. So is there anything else you want to talk about?

I could not speak for a while because I was trying not to cry. He made some other reassurances. Then DH brought up something he had mentioned on the way in, how we have difficulty bringing up and discussing issues that need to be discussed. So he brought that up and we discussed it. Many times when he tries to bring things up, I'm flustered or frustrated and in the middle of something, which accounts for my "face" that tells him it's not a good time (something like this ). Along the way we talked about how we always seem to be more "in sync" after sessions, where we've "made an appointment" to be together. So the solution we came up with was to make an "appointment" to talk to each other and maintain a list in the meantime of what it is we want to talk about.

That led to a discussion about the circle of security and how we are doing with learning to turn toward each other, seek each other out, when we need connection. I do see a beginning of improvement in "real life" but lots of times when I still don't. But overall things are definitely beginning to get better.

Our T complimented us several times on how we are doing. He said we've really surprised him, that he's not usually wrong about his prognoses, but in this case, he's even thinking about asking us down the road if he could videotape us so he could use it to show others as an example of a "master couple". He said that's "later on", after we're able to carry on most of the session without him jumping in and helping. But then he said, he wouldn't be surprised if in another, say, three sessions, we are ready to say good-bye to him. But then my face gave me away again...so he reassured me that we will all agree when it's time to go, he never knows for sure how long it will take, he's still "learning", every couple is different. etc. etc.

So I tried to talk a little at this point about how I'm feeling, but we only had a few minutes left so I didn't say it very well. All I said is, the reason I kind of panick when says three more sessions or ends early, and says we're doing so well, is that I know we are on our "best behavior" when we're there, and that reality doesn't look nearly as "nice". Then he jumped in with more reassurances.

But I’m not buying them at all. They sound empty after the other things he said. I feel like he is rushing us through and wants us to be done now. Ending after 20 minutes, when our drive in takes 35 minutes one way? All we had done at that point was resolve a tiff that came up on the way in. It really feels like he just began to help us change our behavior and that's all he thinks we need to be able to go forward from here to solve our own problems. As long as we are turning toward each other. But he said we were going to work on problem solving later in the therapy…???

The upside of today’s session is that DH and I had a nice talk on the way home...actually I talked, he listened...because I started crying and he asked why. I was able to tell him I just feel really hurt that I'm not "welcome" there. Then I basically tried to do my own interpretation of where this is "really" coming from. Also I do think there is a bit of a “daddy” attachment happening…not anything I can’t recover from…but I was hoping to learn from it.

Don’t get me wrong…I do appreciate our couple T’s help. It’s a very practical approach, CBT really (which is what his profile says), using attachment theory, although I’ve never heard of it being used quite this way before (the circle of security is for infant/toddler attachment – I don’t know of any application with adults outside of this therapy). It’s given us lots to work on from here, behaviorally speaking. I guess I just thought he was going to continue coaching us until we got more “steady” and didn’t need his help as much. He tried to say that today, after he saw how upset I looked…but after that is when he said, maybe only three more sessions. So I’m hearing conflicting messages.

And what scares me is that I was hearing the same kind of conflicting message from my former T. I am really scared something is profoundly wrong with my perceptions. But then, I love how my individual T gives me all the time I need…I don’t hear anything conflicting from her. I would like the same thing to be true of our couples T. So confused…

Maybe we really are doing so much better than most of his other patients? Maybe my expectations are too high?

Thank you for reading…any feedback, insights would be appreciated.

SG

Aw SG...I just want to say that I'm working on a reply to you...but it's taking me some time, so I'm kinda logged on and picking at it, in between doing other stuff... and I'll post it when it's ready. Hugs, SG. ((((((((SG))))))))

BeeBee

So, here it is...

SG, it is good to "see" you...I've missed everyone here over the summer.
The sense I get from what you are writing here is that you are ultimately dealing with a long term attachment injury, as it is put on this forum. Please understand I have done no reading besides on here, about attachment injuries, yet, it seems so clear to me that what you are longing deeply for always, (like myself) is "the father." Well, you have not developed such an attachment, from what I have read of you, to your female T. Please take what I say with a grain of salt, wince, I am no T, and I don't know a lot about this kind of stuff except from my own experiences and perceptions.

So, you are hurt, that your marriage T is wanting to cut sessions short, and that he thinks you maybe done in 3-4 sessions or so. How I have suffered in the same kind of thing with my T. I think there is something deeply going on here, that you must examine with your primary T. Well, here is a man, deeply interested in YOU, in your marriage, and in helping. Perhaps you have never had such a thing from a man. I know that I haven't, and that it also hurts me deeply, badly, when my husband does not want to "take the lead" in loving me, loving our kids, or making things work. To think, how can I help, in the way that I think. To be there, sacrificially for me. Not just want to be, but to BE. And I want that badly, from my T, from any man who will give it... How badly that does hurt, SG. I think as my T would put it "that is "just " the longing for daddy." grrr, how FURIOUSLY angry I can become when I think of those words, "just." How could he not understand, how deeply and like a canyon in the heart, that longing does run? How, he is a man like all the rest, unwilling to give of himself- with such a statement? But, think...you say you are a Christian, so I will use, the example of the Fall of Man. How did Adam react when God had discovered, they sinned? He did take Eve, and say "It was the woman YOU gave me, that made me do it." What a weenie! So, that was the first sin. Not Eve's...his. If he had "taken the lead" and accepted responsibility for not being there to protect her, speak to her- while she was being seduced by a brilliant demon- well, maybe we would all, not be in this mess. But he did blame her, and hide initially- and we are all left with this kind of "genetic" sin. Maybe, the "first" sin of women, that we have been left with, is a tendency, IMO not as deeply serious- not to ASK Adam for his help, but rather think, we must do it all alone without him- because he is so "stupid." well, I think it's not so serious, maybe because I am a woman.

The big problem in my marriage as I see it, is this...that I do not (cannot in ways because of my deep experineces with being sinned against in such a way in the past)) ask for help and assurance, and be humble in such a way...and that he will "hide behind me" and let me decide everything, rather than "take the lead." Now in therapy, you are in a situation that each woman is deeply longing for...for a man to "take the lead" and tell us, gently, and lovingly but with authority, help us, love us...what to do? So you feel attached, perhaps (?) once again to this *man* who is showing the way. Somehow we women must "make it possible" for our men (in our marriage) to take the lead...emotionally as well as physically. It is the great, and the terrible -perhaps the most painful- challenge, and an agonizingly painful one. Well there is much written about this in "The Theology of the Body" by Karol Wojtyla. A very difficult read, yet, an intelligent person like yourslef will be able to get through- should it interest you.

Now, I ask, how can I put into my marriage, what I long for deeply, from my T...when my husband is NOT such man, like my T is? Something my T said once, resonates deeply..."love requires it of us." We must do this somehow for our spouse...help them to become the person (Man) they are meant to be, in God. Help them to become a man, by becoming deeply, more of a woman. Well, how is this possible? That is the answer I still am searching for myself...the journey...I look for it in T and elsewhere... It is clear to me, that you are also on this strange fantastical search...the search for God, and for God IN us... how we are made, in His image not as individuals but as man and woman. and that woman is deeply, vulnerable, and needing to be filled. But must somehow, ask.

Well, and this is the best I can do...in terms of my own crazy, kind of philosophical thoughts on all of this. Science and Thrology and Spirituality all have much to say on this kind of thing...if we can find the connections...which is most difficult to do in our secualr world that sees God as some kind of superstition...well, it is just how we are made, as man and woman... we each have needs, our sexuality is deeply, mysteriously, HOW WE ARE MADE, and WHAT WE NEED- and anyone who appears to meet those needs will be longed for as deeply as we long for God. The trick is probably, how to meet those needs for our spouse, and in meeting them, we will get our own needs for God met-within our marriage. I suspect, that for women this involves a LOT of vulnerability and the "receiving" kind of love. As manifested, yes, in sex...but also in our daily lives. Very painful....strangely receiving love can be more painful, I find. But maybe pain is NOT the awful thing we think it is.

Well, I hope some of this will help, I know it is crazy sounding and kind of deep.

Thinking of you, and praying for your marriage...

BeeBee

Dear BeeBee,

You ROCK. Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully! Every syllable of what you said resonated with me. I am still giggling at your calling Adam a "weenie". Thank you for this historical perspective! When put in this context, the weenieness I've been experiencing isn't such a shocker anymore. It's all part and parcel of God's fallen world. And even as such, He still has a part for us to play...and we can't do it unless we rely on Him first. Thank you, thank you for putting it together like this.

I also saw my individual T this morning and she helped a bunch, too. She asked a lot of questions, one of which was why didn't I stand up for myself in the session. We talked about what that would be like and eventually I got to because it's terrifying, I'm afraid I'll be squashed, and what's the point anyway if he doesn't want to be our T? She said that fear sounds an awful lot like the fear I expressed when she suggested I try to speak openly about my feelings with my mother. And that totally fit, it's the same exact terror that I'll be squashed like a bug. She suggested that maybe the goal here is to step into that and speak anyway, remembering it's not the past now, and it is okay for that "little girl" to respectfully speak up for herself, to want full sessions, to want the kind of therapy where WE decide when we're done...understanding that I probably won't get it from this T, but it's still okay to want it. And not necessary for me to slink off with "what's the use".

I don't know what we'll do next week...but I'm going to try to put it aside for the weekend because my DH and I are going on a little vacation with another couple and I want us to have FUN. We just had our 10-year anniversary so for a surprise I bought an online game called Bliss that we can play when we are alone. It's supposed to be a lot of fun and help a couple build intimacy.

Thanks again BeeBee...that was awesome.

SG

Well...I'm personally falling in love with your primary T.

I hope your weekend is wonderful! Thanks for bringing this thread back...I might need to post on it myself! and thanks for letting me wax all philosophical...Adam really was a weenie, wasn'st he? grrr.

Beebee

SG what you’re describing sounds quite worrying - I too would be freaking if a couples T wanted to cut short sessions, seemed to think things were going tickety boo and therefore nothing further needed working on, and dropped comments about finishing soon.

I guess the question is - do you think that you and H need more counselling, and if so, could you discuss it in detail with the couples T - with a view to getting him to clarify his overall ‘game plan’? I know that couples T is usually quite short term (compared to individual therapy) and maybe he’s working to that end, rather than looking at deeper individual issues? Also that he’s CBT maybe it isn’t his approach to dig beneath the surface, but rather to give you ‘tools’ to change behaviour as an ongoing thing?

I hope you are able to sort this out though - it certainly doesn’t sound as if what you’ve done with this couples T is enough to improve your relationship with H to the degree you both need. Hope you feel strong enough to broach all this with him next session.

(((( SG ))))

LL

p.s. I wrote most of this yesterday before BB’s reply, sorry that it doesn’t pick up on what you’ve since discussed.

Hi LL,

Thanks for what you said! (And I've got a big silly grin over the term "tickety boo"...never heard it before...very cute!!! )

He has definitely discussed his "game plan", which is that we will end when we all agree that our marriage is "good enough"...not perfect, of course, but good enough that we can move forward without his help. It said both "CBT" and "Attachment Theory" in his Psychology Today profile, and I can definitely see the CBT approach at work in how he is helping us. He's making attachment theory very practical by basing our homework on it. And I really appreciate that part, because my tendency is to get lost in theoretical abstractions, while nothing actually gets changed.

I guess there are two areas where I feel disappointed. One is that when I saw "attachment theory", I expected him to also "dig beneath the surface" along with the CBT. DH and I are quite the "people pleasers", me especially when it comes to authority figures, so a lot of what our T is seeing in session is motivated by wanting to be a "good patient" and please HIM, and little to do with DH, at least so far...I hope that makes sense. That's why I want him to really dig deeper and make us get more real with him and at the same time with each other. I was hoping this would be a safe place to do that. Right now it feels like all we've done is apply a huge band-aid to the situation. Also we aren't really doing all that well with the homework, and I'm especially annoyed with part of it that my DH isn't doing, and I've brought it up a couple of times...but our T isn't pursuing that or asking why or holding us accountable, etc. I guess what I wanted was stronger guidance and to go deeper, and it doesn't look like that's going to happen. And I don't know if the surface changes we are making will really "take" without going deeper to the root causes.

The other thing that really hurts is his ending early, without explanation, and without our indicating that we wanted to. I just think it was plain insensitive for him to do that, especially when he is supposedly knowledgeable of attachment theory. I think it shows that his understanding of AT maybe doesn't go much past the surface. Which certainly isn't a crime, for goodness sake...but I was expecting his understanding to be more than mine, you know? So I'm kind of taken aback, to put it mildly. Like not knowing, apparently, that a patient with attachment issues will see the T as an attachment figure. On that Circle of Security, someone with the avoidant pattern (which he has identified in both of us) will move away from their attachment figure if they feel unsafe or scared, when what they really need to do is to return. That is EXACTLY what I want to do now, is RUN away from him. He explains this very well when it comes to each other, so it's kind of strange to me that he doesn't realize we might do that with him. And LL, I swear, I AM working as hard as I can on my marriage, and I thought if I did that, I wouldn't "attach" to this T. But my reaction to his ending at 20 minutes was awful...I cried all night, having that visceral terror and literally feeling like garbage, JUST like I did with my former T. And I HATE that I'm having this reaction. I didn't want to have it...but it is there just the same.

Your advice about broaching this with him is right on the money...that's exactly what my individual T and a close friend of mine suggested, too. Can I tell you that I am no less than completely bone-shakingly terrified to do that? What I would like to do is calmly explain what my expectations were and how I am feeling - kind of like I did in this post - and then let the chips fall where they do. And I want to do it without the expectation that he will do anything differently. Because he's already given us these great tools, and I AM appreciative of that. If I can manage to do that, I hope he can hear what I have to say without getting defensive and dismissing me or making me feel like I've got it wrong because I'm just a patient, what could I possibly know, etc. That is what happened at the last clinic, which he doesn't really understand because he hasn't asked any more about it, and it would REALLY hurt if that happened again. But if I can hold it together and just explain this respectfully, I don't think he will react that way.

Thanks for what you said, LL. Along with what others have said to me, it helped me clarify what it is I need to say.

SG

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to give another update. Sorry, Beebs, I seem to be taking over this thread! But you love me anyway, right? Right?

I described my chickening out of our next couples session, and my subsequent emails and letter to our couples T, in Mayo's Honesty (or honestly) thread. I was sweating it over the weekend wondering how to take his short response of "See u soon ". Did it mean a) "I didn't read your letter yet"; b) "I read your letter, and everything is cool, but there is WAY too much to respond to in an email so I'll respond to it in the next session"; or c) "You're toast." Of course my mind was gravitating toward c) so I was already trying to think of creative excuses not to show up this week. And much of my session with my primary T today was spent fretting about this (although she was great and kept taking it back to what it resembled...not having anyone I could rely on growing up...it turned out to be a really good session ).

So then this afternoon, I got an email from our couples T saying he had JUST read my letter (so it turns out, a) was correct). And he is very open to talking about all of this at our next session. It was very positive and reassuring. He even called my letter "delightful". That REALLY surprised me. I was hoping for "not too offensive" or maybe even "acceptable". He said he is willing to look at what I've read about attachment and talk about what is, and what is not, attachment. Also we can look at my letter and talk about that, and also look at the problems my DH and I listed at the beginning and talk about how we want to proceed...and he said he has some ideas he wants to bring up too on how we can do that. So I am feeling REALLY hopeful right now.

Peace,
SG

SG,

That is great!! I'm glad that he responded and cleared up the a,b or c issue for you. I hope that the session is productive and that you leave there feeling heard and hopeful. Keep us posted!

Hooray, SG! I'm really glad that this is looking up for you - it was brave and strong for you to put your feelings out there, and it's awesome that you are getting validated for doing that, and that it sounds like you will be getting more of the support you need from this couples work. But most importantly - this great thing happened - that something went awry, you had strong feelings about it, you made them your feelings and your needs known and asked for help - AND - you have been met with welcome for it!!! Woohoo!!!!

Bebe I just caught up with your amazing post about Adam - I loved it, thank you for sharing this perspective with us.

xxJ

Go SG!!!!!

sometimes it's great to be wrong! yay SG!!! Way to be courageous by sending the letter, talking through the deeper matter of not having anyone to rely on growing up, and yay for great response by your t!

SG...first of all, please, no apologies are needed, since in all sincerity I started this thread for the sole reason, for anyone who needs to, myself included, to post here as much as they need to about their marriage issues. I'm really glad that you are doing that! second, I'm learning alot from what you are posting about, and I thank you for it! Thirdly, I'm sorry that I haven't had a chance lately to read all the threads or posts, so I missed this one. Sometimes I stay logged on here, and it probably looks like I'm always here...sort of my life-line right now...yet, I'm not reading here as much as I wish I could...I'm in and out..so lots of threads are passing unread right now...which is kinda frustrating, since I'd like to be able to read everything, all the wonderful things everyone is writing......and fourthly and most importantly...I love you very much, SG!!! You are a very dear cyber-friend! I think it's so great the work you are doing in T...and overcoming these "imaginary" boundaries that seem to stop us up in relationships, asking for what we need...good for you!

My kids are calling so I can't say more...I hope to be back and read some of this thread more in depth later on.

(((((((SG))))))

BeeBee

So when is it the depression and when is it the marriage?? I'm really struggling with this right now.

((((((((Echo))))))))

Hey there! I'm sorry to hear that you are struggling. BUT I'm glad you said something so you don't have to be alone it in.

When we're in those downward spirals I can't really tell which one it is, either. The marriage problems seem to cause the depression, and the symptoms of depression seem to make the marriage problems worse, which makes the depression worse. etc. I think the only way to approach it, when you can't tell anymore, is to get help for both. Which is probably why I have both an individual T and a couples T.

Can you tell us more about what is going on with you so we can give you as much support as we can?

Big hugs,
SG

Dear SG,

You are working really hard at this and I am deeply impressed with your persistence so far in identifying and communicating what you want.

quote:

My individual T has told me that I read criticism into things that are said when none is meant. And she's totally right, I can see that. I'm thinking I must be doing something like that with male T's. I am seriously thinking maybe therapy is not for me. I really do think I mess it up with the way I think about it too much and the things I do with it. I wanted to learn how to relate to men, but I think maybe I am just too far gone. I think I piss them off before they can help me. I hate that I am like this. But I am lucky in a lot of ways to have the husband I do. Maybe it would be better to cut my losses and just stop trying to make things better with therapy.

You know, the only option I don't see you mention here is that this couples T isn't right for you. He has done some great things so far, and you guys have made some useful progress. But what if he just doesn't have the right skills to take you guys further? What if he IS stuck on doing things by the book, and kinda avoidant about the non-book stuff?

I don't know, I guess it depends what is still on your list. I suppose it's possible that the rest is work for the two of you to do between you... but from the way you're crying out here (utterly legitimately, I believe), it seems to me that you have some deep needs still not being met in the relationship, and that you don't have enough evidence yet that these will get addressed between you once you stop the couples work.

Persist, I say. You have the ball rolling, you have your husband there with you and some good ground gained in being able to welcome and comfort each other. Don't retreat into saying it's enough if it's not.

Here's how it is in my couples work: our Ts work together in the session, so they both know us and know what we're reporting individually. My husband's T tends to take charge. I know she knows how rough things get between us, and I don't have any sense that she's pushing us out the door or making us conform to a programme. She encourages us to do as much couples work as we both can handle, and doesn't let us 'slip away' if we have to have breaks for whatever reason. She attends very closely to what comes up in the session and manages the emotion level so that things don't spin out of control.

But when I work on my own with my (quite new) T, I have similar kinds of feelings to what you're describing here. In this case there's no push to go past the surface, little structure, little overview, and I come away feeling like - oh, so all there is is for me to just accept my situation and stop making such a big deal out of everything. It's a defeated kind of feeling.

I've come to the conclusion that this T is not for me. It makes sense in the abstract that not every T is for every client, but in practice it is very difficult to put aside one's self-doubts and decide that it's worth actually sticking up for what you need until you get it - or going where you can get it.

Stay strong, SG.

xxJones

Thanks, Jones. Sorry for deleting. After I deleted I didn't see anyone's post so I thought I'd gotten away with my post not being seen. I was feeling really guilty for criticizing our couples T when at least he is trying to respond to what I said I needed. I started thinking, maybe I am being too picky expecting him to act in such a way that I'm 100% convinced he is being genuine.

Thank you for introducing the idea that maybe he's not the "right" T for what's left for us to work on. I think I'm having a hard time considering that, because I attached a lot of expectations to his "attachment theory" description. Something like "attachment theory" = "AG's T". And I'm having a hard time letting that go.

I also really want to retreat because I start thinking there is something wrong with what I think I need, I'm asking too much, I'm just looking for attention, maybe I'm trying to be too dependent on T's and not taking enough action...maybe I'm just doing this to distract myself from the fact that I just don't want to be married to this man, so therapy can't help and I should just stop bothering T's,...the negative list goes on and on and on. In general just trying not to have these pesky needs. Like if I had made a better choice to begin with, now I would not be so needy, so I don't deserve to ask for help. And of course this doesn't apply to anyone but me...I wouldn't say that about anyone else's situation.

What feels "wrong" does feel exactly like this...you put it really well:

quote:

there's no push to go past the surface, little structure, little overview, and I come away feeling like - oh, so all there is is for me to just accept my situation and stop making such a big deal out of everything. It's a defeated kind of feeling.

And you put this perfectly, too:

quote:

It makes sense in the abstract that not every T is for every client, but in practice it is very difficult to put aside one's self-doubts and decide that it's worth actually sticking up for what you need until you get it - or going where you can get it.

You sound like you've moved beyond your own self-doubts and are at peace with the decision that this T is not right for you. I'm really glad for you, then. Thanks for passing on the hope and strength. For now I think I'll ride this out and see where it goes...but just allowing for the fact that maybe this won't be "it" takes a lot of the disappointment potential out of the equation. Thank you again. And I hope you find a T who is the right fit very soon.

SG

I read your post before you deleted, too, but didn't have time to respond. (so don't think you're getting away with no one reading it! ) And for the record, I didn't think it was too harsh. You have a right to question your T's methods and say what you don't like!

My first thought when you described your couples T and what he was doing was that he is a CBT-type therapist. He's focusing on method and skills ("research") and not on the specific issues. My ex-P was like that. He didn't like me going on and on about my husband and whatever mean thing he had said to me. He would kind of cut me off and say, "OK. So you're married to an asshole. What can YOU DO about this situation to make it more tolerable right now?"

Maybe your couples T is looking at you and your DH and thinking, "OK. They know what they were doing wrong with their communication style. They've learned the skills, so now they can go home and apply it to whatever comes up." And then he pushes you out the door. "Next!" Which I can see must be super frustrating for you, since you want to hash out specifically what happened the day before or whatever. I really think some therapists like to quit while they're ahead, before any new problems come up that they don't know how to fix.

And as for everything you said about being a people pleaser and reading criticism into things when none was intended (my H says I do this all the time) and the issues this causes with having a male T... all I can do is empathize. I SO understand what you mean about that. When you figure it out, let me know.