Liese.. how do you know he's scared of you loving him or loving him more than he loves you?

TN

((TN))

We know he used to be scared of it. He's not anymore. I actually told him that I had a "spiritual love" for him in a card I made for him and he was fine with that.

I'm thinking about people outside of therapy. People I've liked or loved more than they loved me. If I was the other person, the object of someone's affection, why does it have to be so weird?

Pops,

Don't zip the lips. That was such a great thought. I think you are onto something there.

Thanks for the hugs.

((Liese))

I'm inclined to agree with you that Pops is right.

quote:

maybe its cos of the whole taboo thing and worrying about erotic transference and the crazy things that might go on if that happens.

quote:

all i know is that its a sad world when you cant tell people that you love them.It doesnt matter who it is

Couldn't agree more with what pops said there.

For my part; it took my T a full 13 months to accept that I do love her. Ironically it was during my session on valentines day she finally said she accepted that I love her both as a person and as a friend. Until then, i'm sure it was her concerns over transference and ET that prevented her saying that previously.

I don't know what's changed; maybe I do no longer see her or love her as anything but a friend, IDK; but I'm surmising she's seen something to allow her to accept it. Not only has she accepted it, but she's comfortable enough with it now to tell me she loves me; again I guess; as a person and as a friend. Having read so much about almost all 'dual' relationships between T's and clients being seen in a negative light; perhaps I'm simply happy that I have a friend for life and that we can openly say we love each other.

Whether I love her more than she loves me (which I do ) is immaterial really, simply knowing and accepting we love each other is enough.

quote:

He may or may not love me too but that's something I'll never know.

I used to think that way too Liese!, so never say never

((((AV))))

You make a lot of good points. I know my T has spent his life building his practice and his reputation and I can't imagine him doing anything that might risk that. But aside from our T's, I was wondering more about how other people feel, how other people look down on those who love them when the love is not returned. Maybe it creates a feeling of obligation? Who cares really. I'll never figure this love thing out.

quote:

I used to think that way too Liese!, so never say never

I hope you are right.

((((Liese))))

I doubt that many 'loving' relationships are truly equal; truly 50/50, even secure long lasting marriages.

I'm guessing there is some sort of healthy range,say 60/40 either way that allows for a solid loving relationship; but once you start to move away from that to say a 70/30 split you're entering 'unrequited' love territory and that would be likely to create the feelings of obligation you mention,and perhaps resentment even. Love has to be one of the hardest things to quantify don't you think? Even so; I'll bet there's plenty of research been done, we just need to know where to look!!

Hi AV,
Can I ask a question? Well I hope so cos I'm going to
You said above about your T being your friend for life and about dual
relationships...can I ask how you got to that point? I'm going to be ending
with my T in the summer, having worked together for 2 years now and I'm
currently stuck in this desperate place where I want to be friends with her.
It hurts so much that we can't be but she is clear on the limits of the therapeutic
relationship and that we will only have therapeutic contact. I've told her I
love her and she has told me she loves me and she said she's sure I would be a
lovely friend to have but it can't be. I'm really sad about it and don't want to
end because I hate the thought of not having her in my life anymore.

I don't even really know what I'm rambling on about here...I just read your post
and felt hopeful that it could happen if you and your T can be friends, then
maybe me and mine could be too...

Sigh...this love lark is complex it seems...

Searching

((((SEARCHING)))))

Thank you liese...need those hugs...Feel very tearful about it all!

Hugs back

((((SEARCHING))))

I would be very tearful about it all too. Is it your choice that you are ending?

((((Searching))))

I so wish I could give you a step by step guide as to how we reached this point; but unfortunately I can't!!

I've been seeing my T for around 15 months and i suppose in that time the 'real' me has started to emerge from the wreckage; and the more T sees of that the more she has begun to like me as the person I really am; IDK. It must all depend on the two individuals concerned; a large degree of mutual respect and trust?; again I don't really know.

I do know that I am SO lucky for this to have happened. I wish I could wave a magic wand for you Searching; I really do.



AV.

Not really my choice...she brought it up. My mum pays for my sessions and they
are £80 a session so I know I can't go forever. I am so very much better now
than I was and I accept I probably don't NEED to go anymore but I WANT to
still. I know I can go back if I need to but I'm scared of going it alone.
Worried I'll slip back without her and yet I get that I can go it alone.
I don't know....it's all a bit too painful to think about right now. We talked
about it in my session today and it's hard to not fret about it.
Arrrggghhhh...I drive myself nuts!

Just saw your reply AV...thank you!
Will you/do you see your T outside of sessions?
I wish I had a magic wand too!

((((Searching))))

Yes I have seen my T outside of sessions; JUST once. She drove me home after a session and came to see my new place and we sat on my sofa drinking tea and chatting; just as friends would do. She has mentioned the possibilty of us attending some 'life' lectures together at some stage also. Apart from that we had one 'session' in a coffee bar in London as she had a social engagement right afterwards.

AV.

Wow AV...you are lucky to have such a flexible T. I'm jealous (but not in a
nasty way) I'd like that kind of thing with my T!
It hurts that she won't be friends with me. I do have very good friends and
the relationships I have now are much healthier and not co-dependent so
I need to figure out why I want T as a friend too...it just seems so sad that
all the love in our relationship just comes to an end. Sure, I will have
her in my head and heart in the future, but it saddens me so much that that's
it! We always hug at the end of sessions and today she kissed me on the
cheek...just like a friend would. She's never done that before! Made the
longings to be proper friends worse. Guess I know what's on the agenda for
next week's session!

Hi Red,

From this point of view, do you think that knowing about your T's lives caused you to think about their needs? I'm just curious about this. My T doesn't disclose at all. At times, I've found it really difficult but think I would have tended to worry more about him and his needs.

The whole relationship is unlike anything IRL and at times, it really messes with my head but hopefully it'll be worth it.

I do know for me, though, that the less accessible he was to more, the more I desired him. I wonder the same thing too, that if he became available to me in the way I think I want, I might not like his as much. LOL!

(((RED TOMATO)))

Wow. That must have been intense. I can see how and why it became difficult. Very sad.

quote:

I have known therapists, social workers, psychologists and counselors, in contexts other than therapy, and they are people just like you and me.

I used to be terrified of therapists - of meeting them socially. Terrified that they could see right through me. It's not like that for me anymore now that I've been in therapy. There are a couple of therapists in my exercise classes and, yes, they just come across as real people. Not superhuman. Not perfect. Just people. Part of the problem there is the non-disclosure. If we got to know them well, we just might not like them. The other part is that maybe that's what we all really want deep down, someone who is superhuman, strong and invincible? They have modeled their healing art around this stronger, wiser other figure.

(((SEARCHING)))

quote:

Made the
longings to be proper friends worse.

Here is my fantasy: What if they just did (and could) make themselves accessible to us whenever we wanted/needed them? What if we could walk away from them because we found out we didn't like them or that they are more messed up than we are?

((Liese))
((RT))

I totally agree with what you said about holding the boundaries during
therapy-I don't want it to be about anything other than me and my needs;
it's costing a fortune and I want my money's worth! But I long to be friends
after therapy ends...not even straight away, just at some point in the future.
Maybe I wouldn't like her in real life, maybe she wouldn't like me...awkward yes,
but it seems like I could handle that now. Maybe I'm just kidding myself...
I'm not sure...
Much to reflect on, it's good to have somewhere to talk about this stuff-thanks y'all!

(((SEARCHING)))

So I think my question really is, is it therapeutic to leave a relationship when we are in that longing phase of wanting more? Is there healing that can and should be done?

(((Liese)))

quote:

is it therapeutic to leave a relationship when we are in that longing phase of wanting more?

finances definitely played a part in my leaving therapy, but your question hits the nail on the head as far as the relationship is concerned. that is the one thing that really baffles me about therapy. you have to lower your defenses and be vulnerable and get attached to this person and you depend on them for so much that it's so hard to explain, all the while knowing that it can't last and won't last. is it really therapeutic to uncover these longings that are so difficult to express and explain, and then end that relationship that caused those longings to be revealed? what's the point of having them be revealed? how do you resolve all of this?

i feel you pain ((((Liese))))

(((POPPET)))(((CD))))

quote:

liese, the sad thing is that no t can fill that void.we will always long for that love. it will never be enough , until we have grieved and filled the void ourselves,

I'm just wondering here, though, if there is a difference between staying in therapy until we have reached the point of not longing anymore vs. having to leave therapy when we really don't want to, when we haven't gotten to that point yet?

The longing I feel for my T now is so much less intense than it was a year ago or so. If I had to leave him now, I think I could handle it. If I had to leave him last year, I would have been devastated.

I was thinking about Searching (hope you don't mind me talking about your experience here.) and the longing she feels for her T and having to end therapy. She sounds okay with it on the one hand, knowing she's made a lot of progress and is doing well IRL but those feelings of longing don't seem to be resolved and her T actually perpetuated them by kissing her on the cheek. The kiss was a promise of something more although her therapist might not have meant it that way. She might have meant to say, "I love you but it's time for you to fly now?"

When I get stuck in that longing loop now, I am able to step back from it and realize where it's coming from and know that I am not powerless anymore, I am not a slave to that feeling anymore. But it took me a long time to get there.

Learning to deal with those feelings of longing seem to be a very important piece of the puzzle - regardless of how well things are going otherwise IRL. Although maybe that's the work that Searching will be doing with her therapist over the next couple of months?

Thank you poppet for my hugs...hugs are always welcome!

I also agree with what you say about needing to fill the void ourselves...I'm
sort of on that page but now I'm such a super-duper, self aware, good self-esteem
kinda girl...why won't T be friends with me?

I'm a nightmare-I agree with what you're saying, I know it intellectually, but I'm
so not willing to let go of the fantasy of being friends. Liese-I'm hoping I can get to
grips with it and work through it in the next few months. I certainly wouldn't want
to end until it's been looked at and hopefully worked through. If I get to that
point CD, I'll let you know the point of it, but right now I'm right where you
are-I could have written your post!!
I've emailed my T today with all my thoughts and feelings about this. She replied
really quickly and said to trust I would be ok. She then phoned me and was
very reassuring, said she understood how I felt and we would work through it
together for as long as it took for me to be ok with ending. She said it was
good to be upfront and honest about my feelings and she was glad I'd shared.
She's only ever called me once in between sessions. It was reassuring to hear her
voice and have her be totally normal with me as I'd jumped in to a big shame pit
for being so needy and wanty and telling her exactly what I wished for.

Lol liese...cross posted!
Don't mind at all you using me as an example!
Complex this stuff isn't it?

Thanks Searching!

Oh, hey, and your T sounds nice.

Thanks liese...I think she's awesome! Have worked my way through a number of
T's and never got as far as I have with this one! We're a good match

(((SEARCHING))) Anytime.

(((BLU)))) What did your T say?

((((BLU))))

What is the context of the stigma around loving our therapists? Just the relationship itself?

BLU, At least you are trying. That takes a lot of courage.