TAS,
Averting our eyes is a shame reaction. We turn away because we are scared to see the other person's expression because we are so scared it will be contempt or anger. FWIW, it took me a number of years to look at my T and when dealing with really intense feelings I still cover my face and close my eyes. Hate to tell you this but the only way to get past it is to look and see that despite your feelings of shame you are still accepted.

AG

quote:

FWIW, it took me a number of years to look at my T and when dealing with really intense feelings I still cover my face and close my eyes. Hate to tell you this but the only way to get past it is to look and see that despite your feelings of shame you are still accepted.

exactly...

I've become increasingly able to look at my T (intermittent eye contact) in completely insubstantial or at least neutral situations only recently. If it's about something serious or has any emotions involved, super-shame-based hiding of various sorts.

Actually, making eye contact with ANYONE can at times (especially if I'm aware of it) get so overwhelming I feel dizzy and sick and need to look away. I don't know if anyone has ever had an experience like that, but I'd be interested to know.

quote:

Actually, making eye contact with ANYONE can at times (especially if I'm aware of it) get so overwhelming I feel dizzy and sick and need to look away. I don't know if anyone has ever had an experience like that, but I'd be interested to know.

Yes, anon, I have this experience all the time. And can't look at T at all

AG, do you know anything about the shame reaction that occurs if/when you look and see acceptance? I feel shame almost every time my T says something positive, so I can't imagine how hard it would be to see positive regard in her eyes...

I thank each of you for your replies and encouragement. It is like I don't want to be seen. When I do look at him briefly, he always seems to be mad at me. I can't bear that and I can't tell him, either.

He will be on vacation next week...I asked him by letter if he would consider allowing me to touch base again (not while on vacation)...I asked him if he got the letter and he said yes...he would let me know if he had an appt available before he left on vacation.

This is going to be an excruciating two weeks. :/ :'(
I hope I am not overwhelmed and I just don't see the point in continuing.

TAS - I don't know about your T, but mine as heard the "Are you mad?" question from me or half a dozen other parts probably about a thousand times right now...and I'm really not sure that's much of an exaggeration. It really opens some doors to talking about where that "reading" of my T comes from by being willing to ask him. And the few times I was actually able to look at him as he responded were so reassuring. Sometimes I mistake his serious, concerned, T-face, for rejecting, mad (probably parental) face. But when I ask him outright and risk to glance so slightly out of the corner of my eye, I can see him soften. Something to think about.

One time I asked him via text if he was mad (sorry if that's a sore subject, I know it's hard not to be able to do that) and he sent back:

"Yes, very mad. GRRrrrRR! "

I LOL'ed so hard and realized that if I really tried to imagine him really mad like that, mean face, scowling and growling, and saying yes he was mad at me, it was literally impossible to see it. I don't know if that will help at all. When you've been wounded and your trust has been injured, there are so many little cues you might pick up on that don't represent how your T feels about you, but how someone in the past did, and how they expressed it. It's REALLY hard to get past. (Edit to add: if my T doesn't send a smiley face when he updates me with the schedule of our next session, I immediately freak out that there is nothing he wants less than for me to show up to that appointment, so I REALLY get how impossible it is to take in your T might feel positively, not negatively about you).

I hope you do get the extra session before T goes. When my T did his first vacation and before we were doing extra sessions or communicating out of session at all, I wrote a journal every single day while he was gone, just about what was coming up for me during the break and about my feelings about therapy. I wonder if you could do something like that. Set aside some time each day to just dump it onto the paper and kind of leave it there?

(((TAS)))

Sorry I didn't acknowledge your post starting this thread. I like your idea about the sunglasses Once I wore a hat, which made me feel sort of "undercover" and safer. I had a really good session too, but still did not look at T I know she would not allow sunglasses, unless I faked an eye condition...?

I hope you get to see your T before he leaves on vacation. When he looks mads, have you ever asked him if he is?

Just when you don't see the point in continuing is when you probably should go...

(((TAS)))

When we go out on walks for therapy we both have sunglasses on. I find that I do look at my T's face A LOT when we have sunglasses on. I feel ok in looking at her face. The up side is that I am looking at her, the downside is that I can't see her eyes and I don't know if she is looking at me / watching me / paying attention to me. So while it works that I am brave to look at her - I can't guage what she is doing / thinking / and I think most of my issues are that I am always preparing myself for the other person's reactions and when i can't see her - then I can't prepare. It replaces one anxiety with another type.

TAS, I wear a ball cap all the time. I hide under it and she knows this. The only time I haven't is after her mom passed away. I told her the only thing I could do for her to show that I cared was to come to therapy and not hide or be a problem. She seemed touched by that.

It actually makes it easier for me to talk if I feel safer with my hat. She is ok with that. Her motto is what ever works. I am sorry your T is such a hard ass. Don't even ask but try a cap, it might help.

Anonymously, he has heard that over and over from me, "Are you mad?" I think I have said it to him once over the last two years, in person, and many, many other times via text. I always say, "Please don't be mad at me..." I don't even ask...I just KNOW he is. He is not the warmest, he feels so cold to me... and I wish he were more warm towards me...it would make things so much easier.

Thank you for replying, it really helped

RabbitEars...no problem I wish he would have said yes...but I think he just likes to say NO to me...I think if he said YES to anything I asked...I would wonder what happened...

I have not asked him, except once...and he said, "I'm curious why you think that..." He didn't say no or yes...and after he asked me that...I didn't elaborate because I wasn't in the mood for psychobabble...I just needed a yes or no answer...

SomeDays...I can't ever imagine going for a walk with the Therapist...I totally relate to what you are saying about preparing yourself for another person's reactions...I understand the anxiety that comes with that...

Becca...Yep, he is a hardass. Hats for some reason bother me...I will try it and see how it works...maybe I would feel a little more comfortable and not as exposed...

Now I have to figure out how to get through two weeks with no contact...I am already hating him.

Good Day to All

My T allows me to hide from her, in the room. I usually actually don't do it (because I would feel even more exposed than when I pretend to accept normalized communication, even though I never look at her, or very rarely). So... I share your 'shame problem'.

I struggle with eye contact too though I have never talked about it to T because for me it would make it even harder since then I would be even more self-conscious and under pressure because if we talk about it it becomes a "thing" in the room now. Does that even make sense?

Anyway I push myself to do as much as possible but I never talk about it. It is very hard. I think I manage a few seconds every session. I try to at least look at her face but usually end up studying her feet. I am very familiar with all of her shoes.

Thank you for replying

About...I try to hide behind a pillow regularly...he will gently say, "Put the pillow down..." or he will say, "Look at me..." I will say it's too hard and he will say, "I know, but you need to."

River...I know exactly what you are saying when you speak of being well acquainted with the shoes...one time he came in and I hadn't looked him for the entire session...went to pay him (always an awkward exchange) and noticed he had a sunburn on his face...

Normally I just don't look and I find if I push myself it activates me even more...for some reason, not sure why.

I could totally do the old fashioned way of therapy...lying on a couch and NOT looking at the therapist...

T.

Tas that's how I do my therapy.....laying on the sofa but sometimes I really want to look into my T's eyes but I just can't bring myself to do it

How reassuring this post is. I thought there was something wrong with me because I couldn't make eye contact, and yet in every other walk of life I have no problem. I also work best when my back is facing my T, and I also wear a hoodie, which has to come up and over my face when the going gets tough. I actually have therapy clothes, and even though I have tried to go wearing my work clothes, I have to get home to change first.
I am in my 6 th year with this therapist, and have gone deeper than I was even aware of, so I don't worry about the eye contact thing now, though I used to a lot.
When we have breaks she has offered me phone calls, but I can't do those because the part of me that goes to T is only able to be present within the T room.
Sometimes, I think I am just making things difficult for myself, but now I have read all these posts I feel a massive relief.....it is 'normal for therapy' and I am glad that this forum allows us to share some of our experiences.

Crootie Thanks for sharing your experience...I like the idea of a hoodie...I may have to try that...

One of the hardest things for me about not looking him in the eye...is that I am an adult but I swear when I go in there I feel so little and childlike...

I hate it.

T.

I totally get that....and it's really hard not to give yourself a hard time for it too. I reckon I have just enough adult to drive me there, and by the time I have walked from car to her office I am speechless, more a truculent adolescent, with a f##k you attitude, which eventually softens to small child.
But somewhere in the small child time I also get really critical voice telling me what I look like sitting on the Floor and crying or raging. It is such a conflict to want to get the comfort that being a small child brings, but also to be given such a hard time for it ( and its all in my head)
I have begun to remove the hood about ten minutes before the end which helps me to get grounded again. And sometimes T actually helps me to pull on hood if regression happens too quickly. She totally respects my need to hide.

Crootie:

I normally will bring a flannel with me and hide under it...he will say, "Do you realize you are hiding?"

I can honestly say therapy is the hardest thing I have ever done.

I can also relate to the f*** you attitude...I feel that towards him and the 'process' constantly.

T.

Thank you all for sharing. Reading everyone's experiences reminds me that it is okay and normal and we are not alone in struggling with eye-contact.

quote:

AG, do you know anything about the shame reaction that occurs if/when you look and see acceptance? I feel shame almost every time my T says something positive, so I can't imagine how hard it would be to see positive regard in her eyes...

RE,
Sorry I missed this question before. Looking up to see acceptance and attunement is actually what breaks the power of shame. The whole point of shame is to keep us from doing things that we perceive would make us an outcast(for much of human history and for every child, being an outcast means death). So shame always causes a sense in us of broken connection. The attunement and sense of acceptance are what breaks our sense of shame.

But it of course tends to be more complicated than that. If we have learned to fear close relationships, then being restored can simultaneously feel good and threatening. The good feelings can also be difficult to regulate. We know how to deal with rejection and abuse but what do we do with love and care? I know for me it also gives me a sense of "great now I have something to lose." Because of my history, I carry a belief (I now know to be false, but it can still feel pretty strong) that to accept something good was always followed by losing it.

I was struggling with these feelings in therapy and my T shared with Aldonza's song from Man of La Mancha that totally nailed it

quote:

You have shown me the sky,
But what good is the sky
To a creature who'll never
Do better than crawl?

Of all the cruel bastards
Who've badgered and battered me,
You are the cruelest of all!
Can't you see what your gentle
Insanities do to me?
Rob me of anger and give me despair! Blows and abuse
I can take and give back again,
Tenderness I cannot bear!
So please torture me now
With your "Sweet Dulcineas" no more!

I have literally experienced times in therapy when my T is being especially gentle and accepting of wanting to scream at him to stop it. It is the hellish bond of healing from early abuse. We long to go towards the other, but it feels like the most dangerous thing in the world to do.

AG

TAS, grrrr I am mad at your T on your behalf. I think the sunglasses idea was brilliant. I don't know how you go about not looking at T, but I turn my head way to the left and I'm not even focusing on anything. I'm just thinking that if you look down or away like I do, T can't see your eyes anyway so what's the big deal? Even if you could have just done it for one session, I think it might be good to be able to look at him and be able to adjust a little to what it feels like, see if he really looks mad or judgmental. I know some T's are very strict, I wonder if being that way really helps some people? Also condolences that he's on vacation, mine is on vacation too.

Thank you Peanut I was really being sincere about trying to look at him...I thought the sunglasses would truly help me 'look' at him...study his face and try to tease apart what I think I see and what is actually there...his no was firm...that he couldn't talk to someone with sunglasses on...

I even explained to him why I was asking...the rules are always in his favor...

I hope you are doing good and feeling better...

T.

TAS,

I'm sorry your T was such an ass about the sunglasses.

I have worn my sunglasses in sessions probably twice in the years I have been with my T. She never said a word to me. Still never has.

It's not hard for me to have eye contact with her anymore, unless I am crying, which seldom happens. When it does, I don't like her staring at me.

I hope things become a little easier for you soon, TAS. You are very courageous.

Blu

Blu: Yes, he was such an ass. I think I shall refer to his office as "The Land of NO."

I thought he would say I understand why you are asking and if that is what you need, go ahead. But no, he wants me to struggle...

Thank you Blu. I like your quote about change...it is so true!

T.

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
If we have learned to fear close relationships, then being restored can simultaneously feel good and threatening.

Thank you, AG! This is exactly what is (or was) happening with me. I was having such intense shame reactions (an almost physical reaction) whenever T said something kind or "tender" or discussed the "relationship" between us. Now, for reasons I don't understand, T does not speak of any of this at all, and even though I was uncomfortable and ashamed before, I am feeling destroyed by the absence of it...

The song lyrics are amazing. Thank you for including them.

quote:

I have literally experienced times in therapy when my T is being especially gentle and accepting of wanting to scream at him to stop it. It is the hellish bond of healing from early abuse. We long to go towards the other, but it feels like the most dangerous thing in the world to do.

Yes, it seems to be a choice between danger (going towards) or despair (moving away, in fear). It is hellish. I have experienced moments of T's attunement and caring that made me literally try to wipe the feelings of shame off of myself, the way you would use your hands to wipe something awful off your skin...

I'm thankful you understand but sorry that you do... Thanks again, AG

RabbitEars