Hi Kashley,

I am sorry to hear that you are having such a hard time. Hang in there.

I can't help but wonder if ther is a trust issue between you and your mom. You do have the right to your privacy, but perhaps she is feeling left out of your life. Then again, you might need her to be on the outside for a while. Only you can answer this.

My T reminds me that it is very important to have my needs met, but if we can do this in love, then all the better.

I hope it gets easier for you kashley as you sort things out.

Hi K,

Been MIA myself lately. I'm sorry you're having a hard time right now. I was hoping you were getting things sorted out with your T. Are you doing the every-other-week schedule with your T, too?

I agree with BB that your mother sounds like she's saying two different things here. You can't tell someone you respect their privacy but then tell them that it's bothering you that you can't know what's going on in their life. I pretty much say ditto to what BB says in the rest of her post, too. I'm sorry you're in such a bad spot. It's hard when we love our parents and want their approval, their love, their acceptance, and we want to make everything right for them at the same time that we want things to be right for ourselves. It's unfortunately not always possible to have your cake and eat it too, ya know what I mean? I wish I had some great words of wisdom but I am the last person to be able to give you good advice here. I really just wanted to let you know that I agree with BB that you deserve a break, girl. You're struggling and working at making things turn out for the better, and it's hard when they get worse instead of take a turn in the 'right' direction. I'm sorry. Hang in there, and please keep posting about your feelings and thoughts until you can get in to see your T. We're here for you!!

MTF

Thank you so much for helping me out. My internet has been very sketchy, so I'll have to respond with more later, but I just wanted to thank you all.

Hi Kashley,

I'm sorry that you are finding yourself in such a difficult position with your parents. You were extremely courageous to bring this up with your mom at all, IMO. It sounds like she is afraid of how you are changing and just wants things to go back to the way they were. But like others have said, it is okay for you to move on and have your own space. I thought everyone else's responses to you were really good, but I especially liked this from Blackbird:

quote:

the parent child relationship is not supposed to be a batlleground where we have to defend out rights to be autonomous at the expense of their love and respect for us.

Negotiating boundaries with our parents is incredibly difficult work...maybe only slightly less difficult than, say, nuclear physics...and what is "healthy" for one parent-child combination may look very different than what is "healthy" for the next. But I just want to encourage you by saying that I think you have every right to whatever privacy you feel is healthy for you. And I also think it is okay to "let go of the rope" (as in The Bridge that AG posted) by choosing not to take responsibility for how your mother chooses to react to your setting boundaries that are healthy for you.

But I know how incredibly difficult that can be to actually carry out, especially considering how parents can make you "pay" for making that choice. I had to wait until the trade-off was really obvious before I could do it. I have had to set some pretty strict boundaries with my mother after years of really toxic behavior toward me and it is still uncomfortable, and I still wrestle with guilt over having let go of the rope. And as far as I can tell, she still thinks I should have kept hanging on. So I really understand how painful and confusing this is.

I'm sorry to hear it's so long until you see your T again! Please keep coming here and talk as much as you need to so we can encourage you and remind you that it really is okay to take care of yourself.

SG

Hello Kashley I’m so sorry you’re having a bad time with your mother (and family!) I read your posts in the other thread (can’t remember the title now) and was going to start a new thread devoted to Mothers with a capital M - but sort of got sidetracked by other events.

Your situation reminds me a lot of mine in previous years - where to take a stand for myself involved effectively rejecting my stepmother and father altogether, because between them they ganged up on me to such a degree that nothing I said was heard or respected (but different from your situation in that I was trying to get from them and being rejected, whereas here it sounds like your mother is trying to get from you.) I also had the same experience with my own mother, which involved (and still involves) endlessly trying to get her to notice me, take an interest in me that sort of stuff - and that to stop myself disappearing into her needs I effectively needed to reject her totally.

Not a good or even effective long term solution so I do understand the incredible tension and pain caused by the whole push/pull dynamic you’re in right now.

Sorry I haven’t any useful advice just want you to know you can rely on us for support and feel free to talk about it all as much as you feel able to.

Lamplighter

All of you have really hit on some valid points. Thank you for the insight and support. You all know how to help me keep my sanity..at least for the next week and a half!

The biggest thing that bothers me is that I just don't know if I'm doing the right thing. I don't know if I'm lying to myself when I think that I shouldn't have to apologize. I don't know if I did anything wrong. Heck, I never accused my mother of anything - I just tried to explain how I felt. But then again, I consistently come back to thinking that I must have done something very wrong to warrant a reaction like this and that it would be unfair and irresponsible of me to not offer an apology.

What this all stems from is a very sensitive subject for me, I guess you could say it has to do with a coping strategy of mine. It's not too serious, but I'm terribly ashamed of it. So I feel so incredibly vulnerable whenever the subject is brought up. It is what fueled these fights in the first place, but they kind of stemmed off from there. But, regardless, I know I need to discuss this with my T, but I'm so scared to bring it up. I don't know if I have the courage because I'm so ashamed. The huge catch with this is that I can really only honestly explain everything that has happened with my parents if I tell my T EVERYTHING, but it makes me sick to my stomach to think of doing it.

And my T is pretty booked up...I think I'm lucky to have gotten a spot in with her. Right now, it looks like I'm meeting on the off-weeks of two other people, like I'll meet on a Friday, Monday, Friday, etc. But I haven't met with her in any less time than 10 days in between. It's pretty frustrating. Hopefully Monday will come quickly...

Oh Kashley this sounds like you're in a really stuck place and that you're spinning out about feeling you ought to apologize to your mother - I'm so sorry you're going through this.

10 days is a LONG time between sessions especially when you have something weighing you down so much. Is there any chance you could ask your T for a sooner appointment? And generally see if she won't fit you in on a more regular basis?

I so hope you hang in there with this without negating your own sense of what's right for you, that's got to be your guide in all of this.

Lamplighter

Hi Lamplighter,

Luckily today is Thursday, and my next session is on Monday. So at least I've stuck it out this long. I hope that I can get more regular sessions though, because this is a sort of torture.

Yesterday my father called me again to see if I apologized to my mother - it was an awful conversation. Some of the worst things he's said to me. I know that knowing what is right for me should be my guide, but I don't know if I'm doing that right now. I don't know if I've created a mountain out of a molehill. Especially considering I'm so sensitive about the subject matter that started all of this. I think it's possible that I overreacted, which makes me wonder if I even have the right to be upset, considering I'm the one that probably caused all of this to get so bad.

Sorry for being so negative and self-pitying. This is all just weighing down on me so heavily because if this is my fault, then I should apologize. Ugh.

Hi Kashley,

FWIW I don't think you are being negative or self-pitying at all. You have a right to have boundaries with your parents, and I'm sorry they are giving you such a hard time about it. I'm glad to hear your next appointment is coming up relatively soon. Hang in there!

I don't know if this will be relevant but what you are describing keeps bringing to mind something that happened between me and my mom several years ago. I was just out of the military and living with my mom and her boyfriend temporarily until I got my own place. During that time I saw a T for a little while to treat panic attacks, and I also talked to him about a few other things along the way, including how much I didn't like my mom's boyfriend. My mother had noticed that I didn't like him all that much (I wasn't actively rude, just went my own way and let him go his) and asked me about it. I said I had been talking to my T about it, but I didn't want to go into any details (because I didn't want to hurt her feelings, and also wanted to avoid a confrontation). But she got irritated at that and said "Well, what did your therapist say about it?" in a really nasty, sarcastic tone...which triggered immediate meltdown in me and I ran out of the house crying.

I think the reason my mom reacted that way is because she felt threatened by my talking to someone else (instead of her) about how I felt about her and her boyfriend. But it really wasn't any of their business because it wasn't about them - it was about my feelings regarding them and the whole situation, and what I needed to do about it to take care of myself. And my feelings and what I do to take care of myself is my business. It's about where I stop and other people begin.

So anyway I just thought I heard some similarities (in principle, anyway) between this and what is going on with you and your parents, although they seem much more aggressive in their insisting that you apologize (although my mom's got a look and tone that causes complete amygdala meltdown in me - still today - so you might say her aggression is more concentrated...gets a little more bang for her buck, maybe? ). Sorry I don't have any more examples but I avoid any possible confrontations with my mom because of how easily I melt down when they happen. Awful stuff.

As far as apologizing...I had a friend once who told me she only apologizes when she's done something wrong. Have you done something wrong? Or are you being asked to apologize for how your mother feels? Because you aren't responsible for that. And you really are not hurting her by having boundaries. Having boundaries is healthy and keeps people from getting hurt, namely you in this case. And that's nothing to apologize for IMO.

Take care, Kashley...

SG

That's a rough situation with your mom, SG. My dad tends to give me some of the same behaviors as that. More of the passive agressive kind of thing, but he also sometimes openly criticizes the fact that I'm in therapy. Honestly, I would never have chosen to tell him, but my mother told him several months back in some sort of revenge kind of thing, I think. Kind of like, "your daughter is in therapy because of what you did."

quote:

It's about where I stop and other people begin.

I completely relate to this. It's the biggest thing that I'm trying to figure out in regards to whether I should apologize or not. At this point, I feel like if I apologize, I'll be doing it just because I feel like I should, but not because I need to. Honestly, I don't want to apologize at all, but I feel like that's just me being inconsiderate rather than me standing up for my boundaries.

I normally speak to my mother at least every other day, if only for a couple minutes. But I haven't spoken to her for nearly a week now, which is no doubt making everything worse. I feel so helpless right now. My father is now ashamed of me as a daughter (he actually said that), and he also said that he wanted me to go back to being the nice, considerate daughter he thought I was. All because he said that I wasn't being fair and I said that I felt like it wasn't fair that I couldn't express my opinions. It was a futile argument with him, but after everything that's going on with my mother, I guess I was exasperated enough to tell him that. I just don't know what I'm supposed to do.

Kashley everything you’re describing rings big bells for me. You are being bullied and the things your father has said are really hurtful and so so so... uhnn I can’t even find the words I’m spluttering so much - UNFAIR. More than that, really quite nasty. Like - you’re only ok and acceptable if you be a ‘nice, considerate daughter’ - read - thinking only of your parents and keeping your needs and wants out of the relationship.

It sounds like you are really struggling with not apologizing and as you don’t feel ok or on your side in this, maybe it would resolve this awful state you’re being put in by kind of ‘giving in’ temporarily, apologizing just to make yourself feel better and then looking at how it all affects you and what their reactions are to it so you can get a clearer idea of just what’s going on here? My own reaction would be to dig my heels in and say NO WAY but I don’t get the sense that you feel angry enough on your own behalf to do that - so maybe doing a bit of strategic surrendering might actually help you get through this specific bad situation without feeling as if you have betrayed yourself?

You’ve got my support, no matter what you decide to do in the end.

Lamplighter

I think I would have apologized before under "normal" circumstances. But I really don't want to apologize now. But what's messed up about it is that I'm feeling more hesitant to apologize because I feel like my parents deserve sincerity from me if I do apologize, and I know that I can't give that. It would just be a few words coming out of my mouth. I actually get the sense that I may feel worse about myself if I apologize, because I'll berate myself for saying something that's a lie.

I am just repeatedly amazed at the support you all have given me. I know I say it in nearly every post, but I just can't get over it - I would really be in a bad place if I didn't have this forum to air out my thoughts.

quote:

I'm feeling more hesitant to apologize because I feel like my parents deserve sincerity from me if I do apologize, and I know that I can't give that. It would just be a few words coming out of my mouth. I actually get the sense that I may feel worse about myself if I apologize, because I'll berate myself for saying something that's a lie.

Kashley...I think what you said here is really important, and what's more, really beautiful. You want to be genuine. But you sense deep inside that you are being asked to do something that will betray what your real feelings are, in order to make someone else feel better about themselves. It is deeply unfair. To be asked to apologize under any circumstances is always kind of goofy, anyway, even if the person really did do something wrong. Because an apology by it's nature has to come from the heart or it is just a lie meant to soothe the other person temporarily. I wouldn't apologize, unless you really believe firmly that you did something wrong AND you feel really sorry about it. Anything else is not beiong true- to both you and her. An apology over what may not have even been wrong (I don't know because I don't see the circumstances here of the perceived injury) and that you cannot feel sincere about is just adding fuel to the fire. It's the buy now, pay later program...Be true to yourself...and if you have to suffer for it at the hands of your parents, that is really agony, I know that one. Many sustaining hugs are being sent your way.

BB

Thank you, BB. I guess I'm just feeling overloaded with crap right now, because it feels like both of my parents view me as the enemy. I'm not going to apologize - but the next conversation I have with my mother is going to be a biggie, I can already tell. I feel so emotionally drained, though. Hopefully I can work through some of this confusion and hurt in my session on Monday...

Hi Blackbird,

You're so kind to ask. I was super anxious going into my session, and I had trouble getting my words out straight when I was explaining everything that happened. I didn't feel connected to my feelings at all the whole session - I was just telling a story and figuring things out (intellectually). Immediately after I left, I felt very dissatisfied. I couldn't remember anything that went on during the session that helped me really process any of this. It actually had me pretty depressed for the rest of the day.

But, laying in bed that night, I started thinking and I remembered saying that I felt like it was going to take so long for me to ever feel that my feelings are real and true and that it is okay for me to have them. My T responded by saying that I could take as long as I needed, and we sat in silence for a few minutes while I thought about everything. There was a lot of silence, and the more I think about it, the more I realize that I think my T was just giving me time to come down from being so nervous and anxious and think through everything. She also emphasized that I never had to tell her, or anyone else, anything that I would rather keep private - that it was a right of mine. So, I think the whole session boils down to that...she was giving me the opportunity to sort through my thoughts and share what I wanted and only what I felt ready to share, and she also wasn't pressing me to figure out what I was feeling and be able to articulate it to her, because that's one of the things going on with my parents.

There was so much left unprocessed, but it's so impossible to be able to touch on everything that needed to be addressed. So, I think that that is what got me down immediately after I left. There was so much about the whole situation that was weighing down on me, and we only hit a fraction (a very small fraction) of it. But, the thing that has still got me spinning a little bit is that I'm not 100% sure about this T. But it's more just a feeling...she really is a fantastic T (although she has asked me my age every session because she's forgotten..? Not that big of a deal, I don't think..), but I guess the jury is still out as to whether she is the right T for me. Should I know by now? I feel like comparing to my last T isn't good, because she was the first therapist I ever met with, so it was so nice to have someone to talk to. And I wasn't thinking about long-term, since I knew I only had a limited amount of sessions.

I feel like I'm jumping around, but I've been having trouble thinking straight the past few days. Anyway, it will be another 10 days (8 by now) before I see her again. We still haven't set up a permanent schedule, and I'm not sure whether she's waiting for me to tell her that I'd like to or if she's waiting for her schedule to clear up (which she said would happen in a few weeks...but that was a few weeks ago ). She asked me if our next session time was okay, and of course I said it was fine, but immediately after I walked out, I wish I had asked if I could meet with her sooner if she had the opening. And I know there is no way I could call and ask, simply because I don't have the guts to do it. Heck, I don't know if I could have asked her if I did it in person. Ugh.

I'm feeling crappy after the session also because I guess I'm dealing with feeling worthy enough of a therapist's time and energy. I guess some of that feeling as transferred here, too. Also because it seems like reading some of the posts keeps triggering my feelings of insecurity about my T, which causes me to feel helpless and all sorts of dumpy feelings. Anyway, sorry for being MIA the past few days - I guess it was my partial attempt to run away from my feelings.

I probably should have been clearer...it's actually the posts I read about the very good experiences others have with their T's that set off my chain of thoughts/feelings. However unrealistic it is, I can't help but wonder if I will someday get to this point with my current T where I can feel attuned to my T and vice versa. I know a lot of it has to do with me, though...on some level, I wonder if I've been talking more about my thoughts in therapy, rather than how I feel. Hopefully, I can do some of that next session, which is a week from Friday. I wish I could have a session now, when I'm feeling more, because I guarantee that by next Friday, I'll just be going through the motions, thinking but not feeling. It's so frustrating.

Kashley I wish I could send you some cyber courage or something that would help you feel safer to contact your T to get an earlier appointment (not that I’m brave, just that I could be brave on your behalf!)

I know so well the sense of having a real feeling (for me, unusual) and wishing that I could see T there and then because by the time therapy comes around I will just have a memory THAT I felt something and I end up thinking about it so much that all I bring to therapy are my thoughts ABOUT the feeling and not the feeling itself.

I caught myself pretty early on doing this, talking and talking and talking with T about my remembered or perceived feelings, and coming away wondering why I felt like therapy wasn’t helping me. I decided then that unless I did something about my pattern I was going to grow old and die still thinking and talking about my feelings instead of actually being able to have them - so my gameplan was to try and get T to help me access whatever I was feeling in the moment whether that was me being anxious, uptight, paranoid, or plain not knowing. Good plan, bad T lol. I had found myself a T who talked just as much as me and who didn’t seem to understand what it was I was asking for.

For what it’s worth, I assumed any T would know to do this anyway so I spent a lot of time trying to work out what was wrong with me that I couldn’t come into therapy and just feel. I know you have only just started with this T so maybe you want to give yourself more time to trust her before beating yourself up for lack of attunement - that really isn’t down to you to have to work at getting closer, that’s her job (though obviously it helps to figure out what it is you need and want in order to get that trust and closeness.) Hm I’m lecturing here aren’t I - sorry!

I have to say when you described the silences in your last session that if that were me I would be dissatisfied with precisely that (though yeah silences and space are important too) - it’s just that at that point if I were feeling as you describe, that I would WANT my T to actively intervene, to ask the right caring questions, to give me the permission and reassurance I need to feel safe enough to be able to say what’s going on in me. I don’t need time in therapy to think about it I already do that every other hour of the day lol.

And I also relate to your saying that some of the posts on here can be triggering about relationships with Ts - I’ve often read about the good (and even bad) experiences people have with their Ts and sit there going, wtf is wrong with me that I can’t find a T who can help me, I am so unfixable there is no hope here’s everyone finding good Ts no problem and I’ve spent decades with different Ts and haven’t ever felt good about them haven’t ever felt attunement or attachment that sort of background stream of thoughts that makes me feel so useless and hopeless. But what I have found is that by reading about everyone’s experiences in therapy, I’ve learnt so much about what is possible to get from therapy, about what a good T is capable of -without the amazing stuff people share on here I would still be stuck in blaming myself for not getting the help I need. I hope Kashley that you don’t keep blaming yourself - it’s so easy to take responsibility for what feels wrong in therapy when I’m more inclined to think now that a BIG part of that is down to the Ts approach, who the T is as a person.

And finally (phew) your comment

quote:

I guess I'm dealing with feeling worthy enough of a therapist's time and energy. I guess some of that feeling as transferred here, too.

Wow bells ringing in my head I also relate very much to this - especially about posting on this forum. Every time I write a post I scuttle off the computer thinking god they are really going to judge me for talking about myself how selfish of me who am I to think anyone gives a toss about me and my petty problems (or that whatever I’ve written in trying to be supportive or helpful could possibly do any good). I’m not sure if that’s what you feel (I hope not!) just wanted you to know that I have real fears about posting and so that comment of yours really jumped out at me.

So please don’t feel afraid to post here, look on it as good practice for therapy. That’s how I see it anyway lol.

Lamplighter

This is really interesting. I sometimes feel as if I shouldn't post about my experiences with my T because they are nearly always very positive and she is incredibly supportive and we have a good relationship. And I figure that must be hard for others to read if they are struggling with their relationships with their Ts, so it was helpful to hear LL you say that sometimes that can be helpful to read positive experiences, to help you learn about what it's possible to get from therapy. I do feel bad sometimes, guilty almost - yes I know not my responsibility to feel guilty for others!! - but a great relationship with your T doesn't mean that you are exempt from other sorts of therapy angst lol!

And that same feeling of posting insecurity often stops me from writing here - why would someone possibly be interested in what I have to say, when others can reply so succinctly? So maybe it's common to us all. And yet we do all seem to care genuinely about each others probems, but can't seem to accept that others feel the same about us maybe?

BB the contact thing is hard. I suppose every T has their own way of dealing with therapy time and dealing with contact time out of therapy. I would never contact mine by phone unless it was a real dire emergency - it's a sort of unwritten rule, would never txt etc but can email and be pretty confident of getting a reply. I know others have 24 hr contact and some none at all - but it's hard when others have have you want maybe and you know that it would be never possible for you. I don't think it reflects on whether you T cares as much - I think it is purely down to their training, experiences and models of working and doesn't reflect on you at all. Ever .

Yes I agree - feelings are the way forward. Can someone just point me in the right direction please? I seem to have lost my way

starfish

You've all hit on so many points that I completely resonate with.

quote:

I have to say when you described the silences in your last session that if that were me I would be dissatisfied with precisely that (though yeah silences and space are important too) - it’s just that at that point if I were feeling as you describe, that I would WANT my T to actively intervene, to ask the right caring questions, to give me the permission and reassurance I need to feel safe enough to be able to say what’s going on in me.

Thinking about it after the fact, I think my T did what was best in the situation for me, but it didn't feel like it. Honestly, I think the only thing that would have helped in that moment was a feeling of full release from any guilt or confusion about everything, which just isn't possible. But, I may just be telling myself that because I don't want to think about what I really wanted or really thought would help, since I didn't get it.

quote:

I’ve learnt so much about what is possible to get from therapy, about what a good T is capable of -without the amazing stuff people share on here I would still be stuck in blaming myself for not getting the help I need.

This is so true, and I didn't even realize that I have applied this same idea to myself. Even though it's sometimes painful to read about some of the awesome experiences other people have with their Ts, it is so unbelievably helpful to know that I will someday have a T that will be as attuned to me as other Ts are to some of the members here. So, I really hope that others don't shy away from sharing both their very good and very bad experiences, because they are both SO helpful! Besides, in my opinion, it is my choice to come on here and read other posts (maybe I'm a masochist), and I don't want others to feel at all hesitant for posting their experiences if they want to.

quote:

I kept having to stop thinking, and try and figure out what I was feeling, and then say it! wow. It took me a long time to figure out, nad then actually say it, but my T was really nice about it.

Yes, it also takes me a long time in session to figure out what I'm feeling. If I can at all, that is. I often feel rushed to think of a feeling because it takes me so long! And I have to be relaxed enough to be able to turn my attention inward. This past session, once I started to calm down a little, I began to feel a little more comfortable with the silences, and I started to allow myself to relax and use them to think about things. I wonder what our Ts are thinking during said silences, considering we would go 2 or 3 minutes in silence before I would say something, but my T, every time, had an immediate response, like she was expecting me to say exactly what I said. I still shy away from saying my most harsh feelings - I know I do a ton of negative self talk, and I try to talk about it a tiny bit, but I can never spit out just how harsh I am on myself. Maybe my T has some sense of it...I don't know.

And as far as posting on here goes - I'll just say ditto to what all three of you said. I often find that I'm trying to be comfortable with myself when I post on here much in the same way that I want to be comfortable in session with my T. I worry so much about posting about myself - I want to give more than I take. It's identical to the way I live my whole life, because I'm always afraid that if I take too much, ask for too much help, request too much of someone, they'll say "that's too much!" and resent me. When I consider asking someone for help, it's almost as if I imagine them having a bank of "helpfulness" and "giving" (only to me...I don't apply this theory to that person helping others (if that made sense)) and I don't want to empty the bank. I mean, it literally scares me when other people are generous and/or helpful to me, because I worry that that is it, that they are tired of me, of helping me, and I can never ask for help again. Crazy stuff.