Hey guys ... here I am butting in again but I just have to say I totally totally relate to all and everything said above ... Incognito, I am sorry that you are a CSA survivor .. ... In the short time that I've been in the forum, I've related to everything you've said ..... and found it really helpful ...

I've been feeling that same way about my T, too dependent upon him ... I told him and he said, that's okay .... that happens in therapy .... He made mention a couple of months ago that many people quit therapy because it is painful .... and I think he was anticipating where I was going and headed and that I was about to bolt ... which drives me crazy that he knows me better than I know myself ... but I have to let go of that I think ...

I wrote my T a letter last week and asked him to call me this past Wednesday and I was pretty freaked out all day Wednesday waiting for him to call .... Actually I was almost frozen with fear all day ... it was really horrible ... I'm lucky that I didn't have to go to work this week but sometimes I wonder when this shit is going to stop so I can get back to functioning ...What if I did have to work this past week???? . I think in my own mind that if I can learn to function in the world without needing to know that people care about me .... or maybe if I can function and feel cared about ... that would be better ... and if I have to tolerate these extremely uncomfortable and painful feelings for a time, I will but it's so disruptive ...He said he didn't get my letter and he would never ignore a request like that ... and I know things get lost in the mail, but I do find it hard to believe he didn't get my letter ... maybe that's what it is all about ... slowing chipping away at the trust issues .... sometimes I ask myself, what could he do to make me feel cared about? If he told me, I wouldn't believe him ... ... So what is it???? What will be that magic thing????

And Lamplighter, I just wanted to say that I am so sorry that you felt you had to terminate ... I know you can go back but .... ... I guess if it helps you get a handle on things ... I know how horrible it feels to feel so out of control ....

I saw a T before my current one ... and I started to have panic attacks with her for the first time in my life ... I described to her what was happening physically to me ... I didn't know what it was ... and she never told me they were panic attacks ... about a month later, I kind of figured it out on my own ... and I stopped seeing her .. ... anyway ... I was so strung out that when I started to see my new T .. he told me I should feel good after therapy was over ... that was my benchmark ... and if i didn't, I needed to call him ... that I shouldn't be in pain .... and so I am relating this to you and the pain you feel after you leave .... I feel so bad that your T doesn't seem to take your pain seriously .... or be able to relieve it in some way .... Should you really be feeling so much pain between sessions? Isn't there anything he can do to help you?

I totally relate to what you said about the feeling part .... I feel as though my T ignores my emotions ... and I want him to be more solicitous of my emotions and I'm always hoping he'll help me identify them .... but it never happens .... I know he places great emphasis on the importance of emotions so I get a bit confused as to why he isn't more "feeling" or "warm" .... why he isn't drawing me out a bit more ....

so now ... I was so strung out because he didn't call me .... but I couldn't call him because I thought he was rejecting me .... How can I seek comfort from the person who is hurting me???? And so has the benchmark changed now? Should I be in pain in between sessions? Am I causing myself this pain? Should I be able to shake it off and move on? I think that could be a good discussion .... I was going to talk about that with my T this week .... since I was so strung out this week ... (well, my father in law died and then my T didn't call - so it's been a bit stressful) ... maybe I need to see him more, not less???? maybe I need more support during this emotionally painful time? I told him that I felt as though he was my new drug ... and he smiled .... I am wondering about emotional addiction ..... but like someone mentioned above, the more I look online, the less I trust him ... and the less genuine therapy seems to feel .... although .. I thank God this information is available online because I am not sure I would have asked my T if he cared about me .... if I hadn't read online it was an important step in therapy to take ... I just kept thinking that it was so stupid to want him to care about me ... that I'm paying this man to care about me ... but now I'm finding that I need to know he cares about me if I am going to open up to him .... I need to know he cares about me ..... I am sharing the most intimate details of my psyche with this man .... is that so absurd????

Maybe the similar thread that we all seem to share regardless of our backgrounds is that we haven't thought that much about trust ..... because our boundaries were crossed as children .... and so we don't even know how to look for it in the people we interact with ..and we continually (at least me) allow my emotions to get twisted by the wrong people because the pain is the thing that FEELS familiar .... and the whole process that we go through with T is figuring out what type of behavior is trustworthy and what is not so that in the future we will be able to figure it out on our own ....

Good luck to all of you .... I hope you all (and I) can get some relief from the pain we are in .... All of this reminds me of what Dr. LaCombe posted on her site about Titration ... maybe if we let the pain out slowly .... so there won't be an explosion ....

quote:

I'm pretty sure she's trying to get me to EXPERIENCE her trustworthiness and the strength of our relationship

Hey Incognito and Deep fried ( I have not read the other posts yet, but I wanted to respond to what the two of you have said.)
For starters- I too have experienced CSA, and I relate to the idea of being in the dark when the T holds the map and the light- and he won't share the map. I used to tell him that he knows stuff- stuff I need to know, and why won't he tell me. He would ask me- "What stuff?" and I would say- "Life stuff- people stuff- relationship stuff" How does he intuitively know how to handle situations when I am always guessing? (I don't remember his answer though)
Deepfried- I highlighted your words because my T tells me that his words are only words- I have to feel - experience his consistancey and trustworthiness. We do talk about our relationship sometimes- actually he brings it up, and I ignore him. I feel most uncomfortable with this. I get quiet and deeply embarrassed when he tries to be the champian in my corner. I can not look at him or talk to him, IDK why.
Any way- thanks. Maybe I will try to bring this up with my T. on Wednesday. Feeling a bit strong today. Grrr.... Hey- Happy Halloween.

Mayo
Incognito- thanks for the insighsts from your T- I did not know that stuff about why I didn't feel liked - the secret stuff.

Liese- I think that magic thing is consistancy in how he is there for you, however that may be. That is what it is for me. He does not waver, he is not wishy washy or confused or thrown by my stuff. He holds the boundries (darn- sometimes) and he listens. Most of all he really listens.
Nice meeting ya!

quote:

It's like the getting close triggers the feelings of being afraid to be close.

STRM- Yea! that is it, that is what I am feeling. NOw - what to do about it.
Thanks, great to bring up to T.

Mayo- again.

Nice to meet you too, Mayo!

Interesting that no matter what our issues are, we all seem to struggle with this .... I too, feel that need to get closer but I am terrified ....

Hi Liese,
I am getting rather sick of being terrified, but that just about describes it. Since I am reasonably comfortable with my T, I think I will ask him what that is all about. I have someone else in my life that attempts to offer me unconditional love- and I just want to crawl under a rock and hide. I will let you (plural) know if I find out anything.
We'll see come Wednesday if I have the guts to broach this subject. I really want to.
Thanks for all of your insights.

Mayo

I'm sorry so many of us struggle with the same feelings. I am exhausted too. It takes up too much of my life. Right now I'm not angry or worried or frustrated with or about T. I don't want to go to my session tomorrow because I know it will stir things up again. I might feel great for awhile but it will change. I am starting to feel like 2 different people (at least). One good thing is I am too exhausted to beat myself up for my apathy and indecision. Mayo let us know what your T says on Wednesday.

HI Incognito and Mayo ... I have my appointment with my T too tomorrow ... I had written him a letter to call me last week and apparently he never got it and never called ... I had such a horrible fear response on the day I thought he was going to call ....I basically felt catatonic ... I had been finally feeling better about it all today and went to bed but woke up in a panic about my appointment .... part of me really wants to go and the other part, now after my experience last week, is terrified .... Please pray for me that I am able to get over this fear and go to my appointment ... I think it will just get worse if I don't go ....

Hi guys ... well I am back from my appointment and it was brutal .... surprise surprise, he had my letter .... it must have gotten delayed in the mail .... and he read it several times and he could tell I was upset .... so we talk a little and i tell him that i think i need to see him every week instead of every other week but that I don't think he has time in his schedule ... and first he says, well, you just can't assume and you need to ask, but then he says he thinks i just want to come every week so i can get closer to him .... and flat out he just asks me about transference and if i feel that way towards him ... and i tell him yes but that i try to manage it on my own ....

and then i also tell him that i was having trouble dealing with his secretary and he tells me he likes his secretary and she's really nice and she's nonjudgmental .... but he's kind of yelling at me so I tell him not to yell at me, that i know she's really nice and i know it's my issue and he kind of calms down ..... and looks a little surprised that i know it's me .... and maybe realized that it was his own countertransference ..... i hope he realized that ....

I also told him how i was basically catatonic last wednesday and he didn't blink .... he told me i'm giving other people too much power ....

and then he asks me if want him to hold my hand after a session or hug me because he doesn't do that ... and i say, well no, because i thought of that and that would make me uncomfortable ....

so then he indicates that he is glad i brought it all up because if I hadn't, he would have because it was just getting too obvious ....

Let me tell you, it was brutal .... at the end he tells me that he still wants to work with me and did i feel better ... and that I'm going to have to work through this and that we're going to have to keep talking about it ....

I do basically trust him though it was brutal (I wish he was a little gentler) and how the hell do you work through this stuff??? what do we talk about in the next session????

Wow - that sounds a really really tough session, this man does not miss a trick nor does he hold back from pointing them out back to you. Ouch. I am glad you seem to be able to handle this level of 'up frontness' and if he continues to work like this, at least you know there is some very straight talking required. I am quite stunned, though. Did he really yell at you about his secretary or did it just feel that he was yelling?

And telling you that you give people too much power - my C would have left me to see that for myself, with a little gentle nudging maybe.

/my goodness - they all work so differently. I could do with some of that oumph though.

((((((((Liese)))))))) I'm sorry your session today was so hard. BTW, GREAT job for having the courage to go in there today and say what you did. That was pretty amazing.

Question: When you say your T had the letter, do you mean he did not have it last time you talked, but received it between then and today? Or did you mean that he said he hadn't gotten it, when he really had?

I don't know if my opinion will make you feel any better...and you should take it with a big grain of salt because I've never had the opportunity to work through these feelings with a male T successfully. But the way you describe your T's manner toward you, it did sound like he was coming down awfully hard on you. As if he were assuming you were much less aware or in control of yourself than you really are...like he was underestimating you and jumping to some false conclusions. It sounds like your responses to him today, such as your acknowledgement that this is your issue and you aren't "blaming" his secretary, made him step back a little, and realize how hard you are working. Which is good...because IMO you are handling this very well, bringing a lot of willingness to learn and insight to the table, and you deserve a lot of credit for even bringing this up with him. IMO you're being very brave.

What really bothers me...and again this may be me just reading too much into it so take it FWIW...is that it sounds like he is implying there is something "wrong" with you wanting to see him weekly, something "wrong" with wanting to get closer to him...something "bad" about that...and IMO it is NOT at ALL wrong or bad simply to want these things...it is a very natural thing to WANT to get closer to those we're attached to. Your feelings really aren't about HIM, anyway...they say a lot about YOU. It is really important for him NOT to take your feelings personally. I wonder if he knows that?

The other thing I want to say is that if he has a boundary about how often he sees patients, then I would hope he could explain that in terms of his own boundary-setting policies, and NOT in terms of how you happen to be feeling or not feeling.

Bringing the two together, his boundaries and your feelings...I hope your T can create a safe boundaried space for you to look at and "work through" the feelings you are having, without shaming you for having them, and help you learn from them.

Good work today, Liese. I hope you can get some rest. Big hugs to you,

SG

I am such a spaz- and now angry!!! I just wrote a long response and pushed the wrong button- and poof! it is gone grrr...
The essence of it-
Liese so sorry your T was rough on you, and I agree with strummergirl. She has some wise insights.
I will post more carefully after I see my T on Wed. ... and Liese- your feelings are not wrong and kudos for being strong in session.

Mayo

Incognito- My thoughts are with you too. Don't be hard on your self. One day at a time- one session at a time. (((Hugs to you )))

Mayo

Incognito-

quote:

My T doesn't reassure me with words about anything relating to our relationship.

I had a similar experience to the one you’re talking about in this paragraph with my T last week. At the end of the session 2 weeks ago he said, “And by the way, I care about you too.” He was saying it in response to me telling him that I like & care about him. The thing is, I said that I LIKE and care about him. So I asked him next session, is saying that you like me crossing boundaries but caring isn’t, or do you just not like me? I really really really wanted to know an answer- an answer that had some kind of emotion. But of course, all I got was very intellectual. He said that he didn’t negate what I said on purpose. Period. That’s all he said. UGHHHHHHHH. For me, I do have this trust that my T knows what he’s doing. He’s helping me, he wouldn’t do anything to hurt me, and he knows what is beneficial to me in the long run. And it would have been beneficial to me to me to say that he likes me, than he would have said it.

quote:

Do you think it is a sign I should find a different T?

My VERY PERSONAL opinion is that no, you shouldn’t find a different T. But I might be talking to myself when I say that. Personally, I can relate to all these struggles that you listed, and for myself I think that there are all things that I can work though in therapy, and even if I did switch therapist these EXACT same feelings would pop up all over again with a new therapist. Does that make any sense? I don’t have any specific advice on what you can do to find security, except to keep doing what you’re doing… Keep bring up your feelings around your relationship and being liked to him.


Liese-

I’m sorry that you had such a tough session. I’m kind of jealous your T asked you flat out about transference. My T seems to enjoy beating around the bush, and a lot of times I want to make him just spit it out! But I know, the grass is always greener on the other side. You’re probably wishing your T wasn’t as direct, while I’m wishing my T was more direct. Your T sounds like he has a very straight forward approach, does this work for you? Also, it’s nice to meet you by the way, I don’t think I’ve said welcome!

Maclove ... it's nice to meet you ... I've read some of your posts and you are so insightful .... and well read ..I'm afraid to read some of those books .... but I do get that I/thou thing that AG was talking about ... I'm usually so caught up in my shit that I'm not that responsive to those around me .... ..I really really appreciate everyone's input .....

Incognito and Lamplighter ... I hope you two will touch base with us and let us know what's been going on .... I totally get the "spending too much of my time/life on this" feeling or the feeling that's it's interfering too much ...

And Mayo, I just did the same thing ... compiled a response, accidentally hit a button and then it disappeared ... Very frustrating!!!

Sheychen, I'm not sure he really yelled at me, but he was not talking calmly and when i asked him to stop yelling at me, he brought it down quite a bit and i felt like i was responding to him much better .... he mentioned that maybe i was sensing his frustration ... but i'm confused about that because if this is our first real conversation about transference, why would he be frustrated with me??????

And strummergirl ... about the letter ... I will never really know if he had the letter when I asked him if he got it this past thursday or if it really only came today in the mail as he claimed ..... if it really came today, it took 10 days including 2 weekends ... he claimed they hold the mail on weekends ... but I mailed it on october 22nd and he got it on november 1st .... and I live one town over ... the mail here is pretty efficient .. things usually take a day or two .... he would never ever admit if he had received it and decided not to call me ... and i just have to trust that if he did that, it was to help me ... maybe to get me to really separate out me from him ... my shit ... maybe for me just to experience my shit so i could see what i do to myself ... honestly, i totally did not function at all last wednesday waiting for him to call and i was basically catatonic .... that is not a normal response to not getting a phone call .... so maybe that was his gamble???? that I would see it finally????

And I also felt like he was coming down really hard on me .... I tried to bring up the transference stuff 2 years ago with him and go the same reaction ... and really got freaked out that I was doing something wrong ..so I ignored it for another 2 years and hoped it would go away ..... I kind of got the same feeling, maybe it's his frustration (see above) but again, if we are just starting the conversation, why is he getting frustrated with me???? Maybe I am much less aware ... or maybe it was only the pain of this week that made me zoom out, zoom away from my emotions .... .... it was only on the trip to nova scotia that i was really able to sort through my emotions and verbalize them ... all this stuff is so PREVERBAL for me ... I just FEEL uncomfortable with his secretary so i avoided calling the office and sent the letter ... i didn't really think about it ..in nova scotia i had this awful insight that i was projecting how i felt about my mother and wanting to hide my feelings from my mother onto his secretary ....... so maybe he has good reason to be frustrated .... I mean, I knew I was having trouble with his secretary but it was only on the trip that I realized that maybe i was projecting onto her .... I don't know .... I find this stuff very hard to comprehend and maybe that's why it's taken me three years .... or maybe i just wasn't ready ... (I hope it's the latter!!!!)

I wanted to address was the every other weekly sessions ... Very early in my therapy, maybe after 6 months? i was feeling uncomfortable going weekly because I didn't know if he liked me .... so i brought it up that maybe i'd go every other week and he said, "great idea" so I went every other week ... just to be a pleaser .... he does seem to have an awful lot of people who go every other week .... so it does seem to be a preference of his ... and I have noticed that he always seems to respond to what i say, rather than what i feel ....So do I have to have a legitimate reason to go back to weekly? And how do I sort out what a legitimate reason is??? That question will be on my list of questions ... for next session ....

The way we ended the session was that he told me he still wanted to work with me ... and then asked if i felt better but then also asked me if I had any questions ... and then he made a point of telling me to write down a bunch of questions for next session ..... So what am I supposed to ask???? I already compiled a list of three questions re: things I discussed above ..... but do you think I should ask him why am I like this??? We've never discussed the date rape. Is that really that important to discuss with him???? I'm guessing my fear last Wednesday was related to that trauma ... rocket scientist that I am ....!!!! See, you guys are so much more advanced than me! Thanks for putting up with me ....

And by the way, what is IMO ..????

This man is very meticulous .... when I bring up 3 things in a conversation, whether or not it's well organized, he always addresses everything ... one by one ..very carefully ... i've always been very impressed by that ... but today, i brought up the fact that he shorted me last time ... didn't give what he gives everyone else and shorted me 3 minutes .... and he didn't address that ... I have to assume that it was intentional which would only lead me to believe that the shortage was intentional ... again, maybe to push the transference issue a little .... just a thought ... I would have thought if it really was an oversight, he would have apologized ????

I'm not sure I liked the way he announced that he still wanted to work with me ...like, was that a question???? was that on the table???? it was if he was contemplating not working with me???? Is anyone else reading that????

And you know what else, guys, I am in therapy to heal .... and yes, maybe I do have these fantasies sometimes about us being friends or maybe even lovers .... but mostly I am in therapy to heal .... first and foremost ... so why do I feel so ashamed about having these fantasies ....????

Thanks to everyone ... you've been a great help these past 2 weeks ..... I hope I can return the favor ....

Liese, I’m sorry your session was so difficult. I’m glad you felt better when he told you he wants to work with you even though I share your pain at the thought of having to keep talking about it. I just want you to know I am so impressed that you could be so direct with your T. You are very brave to tell him the truth and stand up for yourself even when he was starting to yell. I am cringing at a distance.

Thanks for your response Maclove. It is good to hear someone can have a similar experience with a T and still have trust in them and the process. I usually agree that I think these feelings will come up again with a different T. When I am feeling really bad I think it is a sign that I shouldn’t be in therapy at all, like I am too damaged to form a relationship that could help me.

Today during my session I spent the first half hour in a silence punctuated with a few short abrupt answers. When I get overwhelmed I have trouble getting into the conversation. Eventually my T was talking about my fears about messing up the relationship and a blurted out that I always thought I had ruined the relationship. I admitted that I spent almost every session expecting him to quit on me. I told him I was angry that he hadn’t been able to find a way to reassure me about the relationship even though I knew I would have trouble taking in reassurance. I told him that during the summer when he had been so helpful I had hoped that it was a sign I could relax and trust him and instead things had just gotten more difficult again. We ended up laughing about it. He told me he recognized how difficult it was for me. I thought he was going to tell me how I could deal with my dilemma but instead he told me he thought I was working with my dependence and doing better than I thought I was. I think we are going to have to keep talking about it. I did feel better after expressing myself (not nearly as clearly as you Liese) and I felt better about our relationship. I hope I can hold onto that for a little while to give myself a rest from the crazy spinning thing my mind does.

HI Incognito ... I'm so glad you let us know how it went .... I was feeling the same exact way in therapy.... my T would ask questions and I would just answer one or two word answer because I didn't really feel like he cared about the answer ..... It just got to the point, I guess, where it had to be talked about or I would have to leave .... and yes it is so hard, and I'm not looking forward to the sessions to come because I know they will be hard .... After yesterday, I felt as though it was a turning point in my therapy and the focus in the sessions to come will be about this stuff and not my daily routine, as we'd been covering in the past .... I still feel as though my chest might rip open but who was it, Mayo???? someone said that their therapist said that if they could tolerate the pain, it would get less and less ... and my therapist said the same thing yesterday ....

He did tell me that this transference stuff is the reason i can't get close to people ... and god knows, i want that more than anything .... and i want to have nice relationships with my children so they learn to have nice relationships with the world and their children ....

Maybe, Incognito, can you talk to him?? about how to lesson your pain in between sessions??? It sounds like you might need to do that as a practical matter ....