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Hello Everyone,

I'm a little hesitant about writing this post, because it touches on abortion issues (the pro-life/pro-choice controversy) and I know that these are sensitive and controversial topics. However, I mean to write about them only as they are impacting my therapy right now, and I hope that anyone who reads this will be okay with looking at it from that point of view. If you think this would be a problem for you (and I totally understand if it would be) this would probably be a good point to stop reading. . . .

Anyway, as most of you know, I am in the early months of a not very expected pregnancy. I was a little ambivalent about it at first, not devastated, but not on cloud nine either. As the weeks have gone by, though, I've been feeling increasingly happy about the pregnancy and the coming baby. It will be wonderful to have a newborn again.

One thing that has helped me in bonding with my child to be is reading information about it's development and looking at pictures of how far along it has come at this point. I've been trying to share some of my excitement and amazement with T by communicating what I've learned, but I notice she doesn't seem to engage when I talk about my baby the way she does when we talk about almost any other topic. A couple times I've exclaimed things like, "It's such a little person already!" or "I can't believe how far it's developed-- already four inches long!" And she's been polite, but quite vague and non commital in her responses.

So, it occurred to me that T is probably pretty darn pro choice. This would make sense given not only her responses to my comments, but what I know of her political leanings and opinions in general (she's not very blank-slate-ish). She probably thinks of a first trimester embryo/fetus as tissue and not as a baby and maybe has a hard time summoning up much enthusiasm when discussing it. I can get that.

Well, this doesn't make me feel judgementally towards her or think less of her in any way. I understand both sides of the issue (heck, I've *been* on both sides of the issue) and although I am pro life myself, I'm not all self righteous about it (at least I don't think so). If you had asked me before my pregnancy if I cared if I had a T that was pro life or not, I would have thought the question was ridiculous. Even now, the presumed difference of opinion on the issue itself doesn't bother me.

Except. While I can accept T thinking whatever she does about fetuses in general, I find myself illogically possessed of a very strong desire that she think of MY baby as a person. The idea that she might not bugs me. It bugs me a lot and I'm not even sure why. I want her to recognize it's importance. Maybe it's a symbolic manifestation of my desire that she recognize the value of my "inner child" or something?

I guess this could partly be protective mommy hormones or something. I'm just wondering if any of you have perspectives on this as it relates to my therapy, any thoughts to share along those lines, etc?

If I don't think about this it doesn't bother me, but if I do, it does. So should I just not think about it?

Thanks for reading.
HIC
Original Post

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Hi held,

That's so great that you are bonding with your baby after feeling ambivalent. I would hope that t would be able to keep her feelings out of the room
Regardless of whether she is pri choice or not. It would be nice if she could match your enthusiasm. Have you thought of asking her why she seems a bit quiet on the subject?

I was wondering if maybe she had fertility issues of her own that are unresolved? Do you know if she has children? Well even if she does, she may have adopted and you really wouldn't know for sure.

But either way, you shouldn't feel like you can't express your feelings because of how it makes her feel.

Xoxo

Liese
Hi HIC,

I'm really happy for you that you are bonding with your baby and getting excited about it. I'm sorry your T doesn't seem to be sharing your excitement; that would be hard for me to deal with. I think you have mentioned before that your T has had infertility issues and miscarriages in the past? If so, I would think that maybe she has a hard time feeling excitement for you because of her own issues with not being able to have a baby. I can even imagine that having had her own miscarriages, it might feel like she doesn't want to "jinx" your pregnancy by talking about it.

It may well be her political pro-choice views, but that doesn't feel right to me. I am strongly pro-choice (although, like you, I am not strident about it and in fact completely understand and respect the pro-life point of view.) Most of my friends are also pro-choice, and yet I can't think of anyone who hasn't been delighted to learn about another's pregnancy or who hasn't been excited to talk about the baby, even in the first trimester.

I know you say that it doesn't bother you if you don't think about it, but I think you should talk to your T about it. If I were a T I would want to know where my own issues were coming up in a session so that I could work on keeping them out of therapy relationship.

-Bee
Thanks Nannabee and Liese for your replies and perspectives. It helps to gather some more thoughts.

It's true that my T had fertility issues (she voluntarily told me about this one time) as well as three miscarriages. However, that was all many years ago and she went on to have two healthy pregnancies/deliveries and her daughters are now high school and college aged. So, it's very hard to imagine that her own issues (that were succesfully overcome) from so far back could be influencing her attitude to my pregnancy now, but who knows? I guess anything is possible.
Held In Compassion,

Yeah, I kind of agree with you that if she went on to have 2 healthy pregnancies a long time ago, then it doesn't seem like it would bother her now. Well, what about if instead of asking, you can turn it back on you and just say, "I don't feel like you're very excited for me." And then see what she says? She just may not be aware that she's not as enthusiastic as you want her to be.

xoxox

Liese
Hi Held in Compassion,

quote:
So, it occurred to me that T is probably pretty darn pro choice. This would make sense given not only her responses to my comments, but what I know of her political leanings and opinions in general (she's not very blank-slate-ish). She probably thinks of a first trimester embryo/fetus as tissue and not as a baby and maybe has a hard time summoning up much enthusiasm when discussing it. I can get that.


I sometimes speculate what my therapist is thinking, but of course we can't read minds! You know this to be true...That is a possibility.

Liese had a good suggestion:

quote:
"I don't feel like you're very excited for me." And then see what she says? She just may not be aware that she's not as enthusiastic as you want her to be.


But there also could be some transference going on here, maybe even projection. Maybe you are having mixed feelings and you are not as excited as you think you should be?

Pregnancy definitely touches on prior attachment issues-this is something that I think contributes to Post Partum Depression. (ok I'm not a doctor but I have opinions)

Does this relate to any feelings you may have felt as a child-when your mom was pregnant with a sibling maybe? Or maybe your mother had some jealousy issues with you...

quote:
It's true that my T had fertility issues ..as well as three miscarriages. However, that was all many years ago and she went on to have two healthy pregnancies...So, it's very hard to imagine that her own issues (that were succesfully overcome) from so far back could be influencing her attitude to my pregnancy now, but who knows? I guess anything is possible.


Yes, that's possible. I don't think people 'successfully overcome' losses like that though. True, her daughters are grown, but it could still be painful for her to be reminded of that experience. I can imagine this scenerio.

It could be so many things. I think you are wise in exploring these feelings. Smiler
quote:
Well, what about if instead of asking, you can turn it back on you and just say, "I don't feel like you're very excited for me." And then see what she says? She just may not be aware that she's not as enthusiastic as you want her to be.


Thanks for the idea, Liese. I may actually try that next time if the feeling comes up again in session. Pouting comes more easily to me than being directly confrontational, lol. (Not that statement is pouty, per say, but I could see myself delivering it in a pouty manner. I tend to regress in my interactions with T.)

XOXO,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and bringing some more perspectives to my consideration of the topic. I've been pondering some of what you said a lot since last night, and now it is striking me as somewhat significant that I've been making this (in my thoughts) all about what I *guess* to be T's politics and views on personhood, when in reality there's probably a whole lot more going on.

I do think I could be doing some projecting, because I feel kind of bad that this baby was not planned for the way my daughter was. I have this sense of guilt because of the unfairness of it all-- like my daughter was the "wanted" baby and this one is the "oops" baby. I feel terrible just typing that, but somehow this feeling makes me feel in turn very protective of and fiercely committed to my unborn baby. Perhaps it's all of this that makes me want T to see him or her as somehow "special."

And it's now dawning on me, that given all the emotional upheaval involved in adjusting to pregnancy and moving from surprise to ambivalence to an increasingly strong sense of bondedness, that what I am perceiving as a lack of enthusiasm on T's part could *possibly* be all in my head. In a way it would be a relief to think that. I'm going to try to pay close attention, in as objective a way as possible, to the conversation the next time my pregnancy comes up and see if this theory holds up.

Whew. I'm really surprised that I've been able to discuss these feelings of mine so freely on a public forum. The power of anonymity, lol. I just hope I haven't made anybody hate me or think I'm a terrible mother. Frowner I really do love my children, and I try my best.

Thanks everyone for giving me a safe place to talk some of this out, and for helping me to look at my frustration with T over this in a new light.
There is not one loving mother in the world who doesn't feel guilt!! But I hope you can develop a relationship with your therapist where you can ask your question with a pout and feel ok with that too!

You are so brave for digging into those feelings!! Whether or not this is the case for you for this topic, that is why people project-to avoid painful feelings.

It seemed to be more likely to be projection because:

1. you said you couldn't 'imagine' her being sad over her past experiences as a mother-to-be. But really, i don't think you can't imagine it-i just think you did not imagine it.

2. one of the first things you said in your original post was that you were worried about upsetting people because of pro-life issues. These feelings came from you, not your therapist.

The guilt feelings are the type of things that, when worked through, patients benefit from. Getting in touch with your feelings can be hard and scary, but it pays off in the long run.

You are by far from a terrible mother-you would not feel guilt if you were.It sounds to me like you want the same experiences for your new baby as your daughter. You might be at a different stage in life now so of course it will be different. BUT-you can make the best of that too.

Hoping you can get more relief from talking to your therapist about this. This is why also psychodynamic therapy is patient directed-because the stuff you are bringing up, even if initially not direct, is likely to be what needs explored. Unconsciousness has a life of its own!!
((((HELDINCOMPASSION))))

I don't know how old your daughter is and what the age difference is between them. But I do know that when I finally got pregnant with my second after 2 years of trying, I had so many mixed emotions. You would think that because I had fertility issues that I would have been overjoyed by becoming pregnant with my second. But, it didn't happent that way. By the time my second was born, my oldest was almost 5 and there is nothing more precious than being able to give a child undivided attention for 5 years. I don't know if it made her any stronger if or she won't have attachment issues but I enjoyed the one-on-one time with one child.

And while I was pregnant with the second, I had a dream that I was with a bunch of kids walking along the road and my oldest got hit by a car and thrown a half a mile down the road. And I was so eaten up by not being able to get to her without abandoning the other children I was watching or going to her but abandoning the other children. I'll never forget that dream and what it represented for me.

I also had more trouble bonding with the second even after she was born. She was in distress at the end and they had to do an emergency C. I was in a lot of pain from the C section. My H took the week off from work when I was in the hospital and then went back to work when I got home. The house fell apart. I was up all night nursing. I sat home crying all day. It was a really difficult time.

My second daughter screamed so much in the car that I told my husband we couldn't leave our town because I literally thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown. She's always been more high strung. She'd run away from me at the beach or really anywhere we where. Even now, (and she's 12) she runs away from me when she gets mad at me. (Wish I knew this stuff about regulating the nervous system back then!)

In general, it took me a long time to bond with her and of course, I felt terrible about it. My OB/GYN told me that making the adjustment from one to two is the hardest. So, try to go eacy on yourself.

xoxo

Liese
Thanks ladies for your support.

Liese, my daughter is just barely one. She was only ten months old when I found out I was pregnant with this one. It's been kind of tough, since early pregnancy makes me really sick and I've had my baby daughter to keep track of. I'm mostly over the sickness now, though, and am just tired a lot of the time. Hopefully the second trimester energy kicks in soon. I'm about 16 weeks along now.
(((((HIC))))

Awww, I can see how it would be so hard for you. Personally, I wasn't even ready to start trying for the second baby until the first one was 2 because I was so in love and overwhelmed with the first. (And then it took me two years to get pregnant.) But my 2nd and 3rd are 19 months apart. I do remember how exhausted I was when I was pregnant with the third and the 2nd one was getting very active and needed a lot of attention. The nice part is that when they were younger, they were the best of friends because they were so close in age. And it's also nice to have them so close in age because then as a family, you can do the same things. My oldest now is 17 and my youngest is 4. And so finding family things that all four like is hard to do. Once in a while I get lucky. (The aquarium.) I hope you can find lots of support for yourself so you can get the rest you need. If I had to do it all over again, I'd be more selfish in that way. Well, it's not really selfish. I would just take care of myself better and rest when I needed rest.

xoxo

Liese
quote:
The nice part is that when they were younger, they were the best of friends because they were so close in age. And it's also nice to have them so close in age because then as a family, you can do the same things.


Yes, I do think there are a lot of potential positives in having them so close-- especially once the pregnancy and small baby stages are over. Smiler Thanks for pointing this out.

I am happy about my little budding family most of the time, but sometimes just feel physically and emotionally overwhelmed. I'm trying to make taking care of myself important so I can actually *enjoy* these years as well as be the fully present, nurturing mama my kids need. Sometimes I succeed at this better than other times, lol, but having weekly therapy has been such a big help. Right now, therapy for me is as much about emotional maintenance as it is about processing, integrating, and growing, although hopefully some of those things are slowly happening as well.

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