Oh Frog I’m so sorry your session was so unsettling and, well, crap.

From what you say it does sound like your T missed the point - you were so brave to bring up the SH and to then be given a lecture on safety and hygiene, hmmmmm.

One of my first thoughts was that he might not have much experience of people who self harm and didn’t realize how important it was, but then you say he is experienced in dealing with SH so that makes no sense.

However, psychotherapists generally are supposed to be concerned about client safety so maybe that’s part of the training - to ensure that the T does all he/she can to not encourage SH - and that might mean having to preach about the safety aspects. I suspect he wasn’t dismissing or negating your feelings so much as feeling obliged to ensure you stayed safe?

It’s very puzzling though, especially as he has responded well to your disclosures before. I’m wondering if he hasn’t fallen into the ‘daddy’ role and responded to you literally like a caring concerned parent worried for your safety? (As you pointed out to him.)

Other things it might be worth considering is that because you have such bad feelings about it - maybe you weren’t able to convey just how badly you felt about it and he didn’t realize how serious it was for you? Also, is it possible that because you were feeling so ashamed that you were (unconsciously) expecting him to be dismissive and possibly judgemental? And that maybe what you’ve interpreted as defensiveness on his part might be your own anger at him for not getting it, for not giving the response you were anticipating? These are just wild guesses though.

I don’t know what’s going on there Frog - it doesn’t sound like he’s being his normal empathic T self. And the fact that you were able to tell him that you wanted him to understand that you did it because you were upset - and he STILL went on about safety and stuff - yes it sounds like he has an issue here.

You’re so right that it now makes you feel you can’t tell him about this and you’ll feel like you will have to withhold things from him - which rather makes a mockery of having an open and honest relationship. Of course you know what I’m going to say don’t you? That you really need to talk to him about this, about how his responses made you feel and about how important it is to you that he listen to your pain and fear and shame and not preach at you.

Oh I really am sorry about this Frog - you’ve been going through quite an emotional roller coaster with him already recently, and now he’s put you in a bad place indeed. I have hope though that quite a lot of this session involves misunderstanding (especially on T’s part) and that being the good T that he is, you will be able to resolve this with him. (Hm maybe even get a bit angry at him? I know I would because I’d be expecting T to be sympathetic and understand the reasons for the SH, and it would really annoy and upset me to get a safety lecture instead.)

((((( Frog ))))) Please feel free to ‘vent’ as much as you want - this was a horrible session.

Big big hugs to you

LL

Deepfried and Lamplighter! I`ll be bacl and respond to you both- lots of stuff i`d like to ask and re-read. I have to go now and meet my mother and brother. I ended up sending this text to T: "I am very sorry if i bothered/hurtet you when telling you about the sh-stuff. I`ll thow the needle."

It might have been stupid of me, sending that. He hasnt replied- i know he`s busy with other patiens though. And maybe i am wrong to apolpgize too. yet i AM sorry if i hurtet him, telling this.

gosh: he just replied- have to go!

T replied. said i could come thuesday next week, if i could. (instead of friday)nothing regard to the content of my message though. But its ok. He`s being "correct" in that way. Thanks again so much for reply- i know my questions were hard to answer so i appreaciate your thoughs so much- ok, really have to go now, i`d love to reply to you both!

Dearest froggy, I think your T is handling this just as he should and has to...that is just my opinion on the matter. (I'm sorry if I am coming across as disagreeable) I could be very wrong. I understand you desire to talk over all the underlying feelings. And I hope and believe that you will get to do that when T knows you are in a better place and less inclined to follow up with even more sh. In my *unschooled* opinion it is quite clear from his response that he cares about you, and doesn't want this sh to become a "habit" or become something that you now identify strongly with.

That's all I really can say, without getting into a lot of (for me) speculative psychological stuff about his response that we probably shouldn't, and that I don't know a lot about- but have only just, my own suspicions. Glad your T has said to come in a day earlier than usual. Also, fwiw, I beleive you did the right thing to tell him all of it.

Beebs

Oh, now I've gone back and read LL's and DF's posts, and I think they are on the right track...

I also had the feeling thar he might be reacting much like a father would, especially how he has said he doesn't want you to hurt yourself. Hm T's are human, and have human feelings for their clients, too..I understand that they have to work very hard to keep those in check? Adn that even the best will fail at this at times..?idk.

How are you managing today, frog?

Beebs

Deepfried: Thanks for replying so quickly, - i know you have much experience with this, ( am sorry btw you have). You seem to tackle this very good with your T`s though- and it makes sense that their reaction is "stabile" sinse you talk about this often... I have only spoken about this sh-things a fiew times, for months ago with T. Id like to answer this -very interesting queston/observation btw)

quote:

The SH incident was related to some confusion last week regarding your T, right? If so, has your SH stuff ever been because of relationship issues w/ your T before? If not, I'd say that is probably where your different reaction is coming from.I think it is one thing to be triggered by life but different when triggered by T for your T to deal with.

quote:

Hmm..i dunno!? I guess its all about T, well- everything in my life, my behaviour, seems to boil down, to my relation with T..and how i cope between sessions. I didnt tell T today, that i was sad *because* of the session- stuff that came up monday, so i dont know if he knows i was triggered by the session-stuff..i dont even know if its important..Yeah, that it would be more complicated indeed, - if T knew i did sh *because* of him..yeah? Hm..maybe he catched up that.. thanks for sharing DP!


LL, - you have lots of great points and thought here..as i read through your reply, i thought "yeah -this is it!" on every point..Thanks for sharing your observations and thoughts here, as usaul i value them high and helpful. I have to quote this;

quote:

I suspect he wasn’t dismissing or negating your feelings so much as feeling obliged to ensure you stayed safe?(...)
I’m wondering if he hasn’t fallen into the ‘daddy’ role and responded to you literally like a caring concerned parent worried for your safety?

quote:

Yeah- that was actually my very first "gut'responds" to him this session too- that he was (over)worried to make sure i was safe..hmm, that makes a lot of sense, because he kept asking me about the needle, how often i used it, if it was clean,(a la the "hygiene-lection") if i knew about the risks of infection etc. Like he was gathering info and facts,in order to make up his opinion to ensure i was "safe". I didt understood that in the session though, i was too ashamed and angry at him for his lack of "sympathy" and "right questions". just thought of all this questions and "warnings" as rather "attacks"... Oh- and about the Dady- role. Thats something that has changes my veiw of T today. I have never concidered that as a posibility- that he would react like a "dady-role", yet now i do thing so. And it does make sense..Hm..you know- one part of me, would want that so much, that he would "take that role" (maybe i unconsioulsy triggered him to take on that role?)..He did indeed react like a very "grown up" whom did want to "warn" the "naiv little child" in a way.. i guess this made me very angry though, because i didnt WANT him to care like that, i wanted him to react like a therapist- whom could TAKE IT, whatever i have to tell, without being worried or even anxious..

Beebs, I` kind of like it, that you take T`s persepective here.. Seriously, because after all, i want him to be the one whos "right" and maybe you also right that he wouldnt start adressing all the underlying feelings at first, in order to not trigger me to keep doing sh.. It makes sense. Thanks so much for your opinion!

quote:

speculative psychological stuff about his response[QUOTE]

I would love to hear about those suspicions of yours though!


Blanket Girl-
Yeah, thats a good point! Hmm..i didnt think of that one. Maybe i did do that, wanted his "reward" somehow (his empathy and understanding) and that he refused "giving" it in order to stop my behaviour. Thanks BG- it helps alot to get all this different perspectives on this..

Bebs- again! I think you are all on track, btw, and i appreaciated that you have different thoughts here..The father-thing is definitly a factor here..T saying that he didnt wanted me to harm myself, was very "off" the ways he`ll usually talk to me. i just dont know what to "do with that information"..Thanks also for asking how i am now.. I am ok, i am doing lots of thinking work (lol- as usual) i am upset that i have no idea what T thinks of all this. And i am still worried that my sh- has hurtet him/distubed him, and i DO question my own underlyings motives for telling him about it too... What if i did (unconsiously) WANTET to hurt him/worry him?? Then i am a bad person. in a way. Ah..you know what i mean..

sorry, long and messy poster again. I am thankful for your responds. They all HELPED.

Hi Frog,
I don't have much to add as you've gotten a lot of wonderful responses, but just wanted to add that no matter what is going on, I think it would be a really good idea to discuss all these feelings with him about his reactions and all the fears it has stirred up for you.

Just wanted you to know that I was thinking of you.

AG

You know, it just struck me that he is human - he cares about you and it UPSET him that you are hurting yourself and that is why you got the reactions you did.
You know - like when we deeply care about someone and they tell us they hurt themselves we too would feel like 'oh!" and wish they had not because we care about them and find it hard to hear they are hurting themselves.
Just a thought.
They are human afterall. Do talk to him about all of this.
hugs

oh, froggy, no way are you "bad" *even* if you had unconscious reasons that you mention, of wanting his attention or whatever. That does not make you bad at all, but rather all of this would be good to talk through to get a deeper understanding...hug, hug, hug.

Frog I think your T was just genuinely concerned for you and just wanted to be sure that you are okay and sort of focused on your actions and maybe not so much on the feelings and emotions behind what you did... which I think it what you wanted him to focus on. He sort of chose to talk about the needle the hygiene etc and you needed to talk about the emotions behind the sh.

I do think we test our Ts all the time and sometimes we do this to try to make them self-disclose how they feel about us or to react in a way that we understand how much they do care about us. The other way we test them is to see how much they can withstand and still act very T-like so we can then know they will be there to listen to further distressing past history.

I remember testing my T when I was going through a bad week and feeling a lot of self-hatred. I sent him a song that talked about SH and a video that showed SH. It was a bit graphic and I think I needed to see what reaction he would have to seeing it. I didn't really know what he would do with this and I think it back-fired on me as he just became more scared and more convinced that he was failing me in some way. That he could not handle my feelings about this... even though I don't self-injure or cut I do have to fight the impulses to do so when I descend into the pit of self-hatred. I was feeling like that when I sent him the video and it was because I needed to know that he didn't hate me and that he cared and in knowing that he was there I would be okay because HE believed I was okay.

Instead in my situation I got... you are too much for me and you need to go. I guess I got my answer although we never really talked about it, which I do regret because it left him with who knows what kind of thoughts about me. I wished we had found the opportunity to talk it over... I do regret that.

So....my advice is to not let this opportunity to discuss this slip away from you and your T. Keep talking about it until you feel okay with everything and you feel that he understands what message you were trying to give him.

I'm thinking of you and hoping for good results.

Hugs
TN

AG, Sheychen, BB, and TN. i just waked up and saw your replies and felt all warn and thankful! Thanks! I dont have much time now, so, i`ll just leave it with a short reply, and a thanks. I have dreamed of T tonight. My mum and dad will be comming over to visit me now any minute, and i just recently got to know (from T, in last session) that they are going on a teather play this evening, with a group of therapists, where my T also will be... so, back to that stuff. I wont start that thing all over again (lol). T said i could come in thuesday for a session, and the only thing i want is to talk about this firther. Yet, i have no idea how to proceed. No way i can say "you acted like a father!" no..I rather like to pologize, that i was unsensitive and reacted with anger. I *know* thats not right. Still, as you said, he`s human and did got upset when hearing i had hurtet myself. hm.. is this the the "bakc-side of the coint"? - that after a long time in therapy- one cant say all kind of stuff, in order to not upset/hurt T...?

thanks again folks- your`re the best! you know all that...

Hey- Morning,

I did not read through all of the posts yet( but I will).

when I get mixed messages or anger from my T- usually very subtle- or dismissive attitude, it means I have triggered him. Maybe he has someone close to him who cuts, only a guess, though, and he is not managing his own feelings well.

May I ask- what is sh?

Mayo

A side note- my T has gone into caring father mode when I had my skiing accident, resulting in a concussion- He thought going over jumps was a sign of risky behavior. He started asking me about my driving habits- seat belts and other stuff. I found this endearing, and a bit funny, as although I am a bit (little bit) of a risk taker, I was not doing any risk taking that day. - Just enjoying a ski jump that I had been on all day. It was just a freak accident. He was so father figure when I told him I was medivaced by helicopter to the trauma unit. (This was 2 yrs ago)
I would enjoy sweet father figure, I think.

Hang in there Froggie!

Mayo- thanks for offoring your experience with this (lol- i surtently do not expect you to have read all this!!) i think we`re pretty much the same type in a way..i too happends to like taking "risks" and do extreem-sport stuff..And T is always been questioning my "behavior" when i have walked alone at night, in "scary" places and stuff...

Yeah- i bet you`re right about the fact that i have triggered T when telling this. Oh- thanks for asking, - the "sh" is a shortening for self-harm.. Its NOT something i usually do, i have never harmed my self seriously.. Your T seemed to ask, just the way my T did..asking all these questions. I too, found it a bit funny and sweet when T has done this before, acted over-nervous, but this time it was different. I felt so bad for "causing" him this worries, like i hurtet him...and that i forced my shame over on him. Maybe he was triggered by those projections? I still think i disgusting him, telling what i had done...its not a good feeling at all.

Froggy

I'm sorry that I'm late in coming to this. I don't know so much about SH, have never really considered it as in injuring myself, but have had moments of wishing to end my life ...not recently I hasten to add, but there have been a few times when that idea has been very much to the fore. The reason why I write that is that I can understand your T's reaction in one way. He has your interests at heart and maybe has to be firmer with you that he would usually choose to be, maybe he wonders if too much empathy might actually work against you and encourage you to SH as a way of coping, instead of other startegies? On the 2 occasions that I braved to tell my T about my feelings of wanting to kill myself, she was extremely compassionate but also very firm with me about self care and safety. Looking back I really needed to have that reaction from her, too much sympathy might have fuelled my belief that this was the way forward

Froggie, I hope this hasn't come over as being unfeeling to your original post, I really don't mean it to as I can so, so understand your sadness at how the session was handled by him. Maybe it was the compassion to how you were feeling that was difference between how our Ts reacted?? I don't know, I just wonder if his duty of care was at the forefront and somehow your feelings got left behind by him? Do let me know if you think I am way off the mark dear froggy,

starfishy

Dear my starfishy, do not apologize for comming late at all- ok? i surtently only feel honored wehn people drop in here to offor their thoughts.. And your spot on. I do understand now, (in after-reflection, and with all these inputs i got here) that T would hesitate to be too compassionate and "suppertive"- in order to not "encourage my behaviour, as you said. I believe so too. Thanks for sharing your experience- andi am sorry that you also had thoughts of ending life- endeed those things are hard enought to feel- and even harder to express to T`s. It looks like T`s react instinctivt when a patient tell about destruvtice/harmful behavior. You`re a brave one to let your T know about your thinking of killing your self. (oh- i am glad to hear thats not the case with you anymore!) And i agree that if T`S would react only with compassion, it would maybe have triggered me somehow, to keep using this strategie as coping-mechanism. That was a good point. I think BG pointed out this too. BUT: I would like that my T (at least one day) will help me to give me some tools or show me other stratergies, you know? Not just "take away" the harmful one, but replace one as well. hmm..when thinking back, i do remember he said (suprise, suprise) that talking about the pain (in therapy) and express the pain, verbalize it- is the way to go..the only way, actually. hm..thats easier said, than done aint it?? Espescially because part of the problem (or all the problem) is the fact that T AINT THERE when i would have needed to talk/express the pain.. gosh..Isnt suggesteing "to talk" in a way inconsistent, (almost heart raw)- to offer a different solution, when in practice it is not feasible?

oh- sorry for keeping this going endlessly. Thanks again starfishy, your example was clear and good.

Froggie,

quote:

i do remember he said (suprise, suprise) that talking about the pain (in therapy) and express the pain, verbalize it- is the way to go..the only way, actually. hm..thats easier said, than done aint it?? Espescially because part of the problem (or all the problem) is the fact that T AINT THERE when i would have needed to talk/express the pain.. gosh..Isnt suggesteing "to talk" in a way inconsistent, (almost heart raw)- to offer a different solution, when in practice it is not feasible?

Indeedy That is the big difficulty with therapy and the one that makes me pull back and think a lot about quitting, because ultimately I have got to manage on my own...as you say, they aren't there when we might really need them. No point in saying talk, if there's nobody to talk to, I agree. Therefore to me talking in T sometimes feels like a false security, that it's safe and supported to do so there, then I have to go and face the world again alone. But I guess being in T will help us look at other resorces....self-reliance, sharing with trusted others(like here!).....I tend to write the things I want to say to her between sessions down on paper so that in some ways they are expressed. I can then choose to share them in T or not...

Oh and you are not keeping this going endlessly - it's really interesting and really important for you I think. When do you see T again? Have you any thoughts on how you are going to talk about it?

starfishy

..we`re on the same page here, i guess. Arrrg- this is such a bomerang (you know, the thing you throw, that is determened to always return?) in my therapy...this lession; "..and now you have to go out and face the world on your own..thats the deal!" Anyway: you are of course right. lol- actually you just quoted my T here (thats a compliment btw) -about looking at other resorces and self-reliance and about the importance of sharing with trustful others..yeah- all that. I belive in this too, and i know i am "getting there". You have obviously tackled the urge to quit becuase of this too, creds to you for manage!- and to your T as well!

Yes, starfishy, i think this is interesting too, and thanks for asking- I will see my T thuesday. I am doing ALOT of thinking regard to how i shall bring up all the latest stuff. I will though - start to apologize, or at least say i am sorry that i might have worried him and distrubed him, when telling about the SH. (even though i know he doesnt need one!) And i will tell T i threw away that (stupid) needle. As he wanted me to do. And then i have (lol- its plenty of stuff to bring up) to bring up this topic; ask him to help me find another "strategie" to cope...then probably get a bit angry at him for "taking away" the one i had, (the needle) without "giving me something in return". By that, i dont mean *talking*. I bet we will end up discussing the last appt. and what happened (regard to his reaction). Oh- and one more thing: I will defenitly bring up the fact that my mum and dad was hanging with him yesterday. Again. With a bunch of other Therapists. I`ll tell him i am ok with it now. I dont feel threatned by it, nor so jelaous anymore. I dunno. Thanks for asking- it DOES help typing all this stuff..

Froggie

quote:

actually you just quoted my T here (thats a compliment btw)

Hee hee...you can see I've been in therapy too long! Pity that I know what to do but still can't seem to do it for myself!!!!!

Good luck froggie for Tuesday, your plan of what to bring up sounds almost perfect....just not sure you need to apologise for anything though.

Take care,

starfish

ooooh going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here about the policy of Ts to not be compassionate and caring about SH. Seeing as how I don't self harm I probably shouldn't really comment (but when has that ever stopped me!) I'm wondering if there are others here who do SH and what their response to a Ts disapproval is. I think DF you explained that in post above - I'm just wondering whether others also find that if a T was compassionate about it, would that actully encourage more SH?

Speaking only from my (inexperienced) point of view - it sounds to me almost like a parent refusing to comfort a crying child otherwise it just encourages more crying. Doesn't sit right with me - if i had done something self harming or deliberately detrimental to my health/wellbeing either as a means of coping with the pain or because I'd gotten emotionally out of control - I would really truly expect a T or caring other to, well, care, to try and help me with the cause of the SH, NOT to give me lectures on the nature of the actions themselves - which I would already know anyway.

Does that resonate with anyone? Or am I ruffling feathers here? Sorry if that's the case.

Frog I guess I'm saying that while I think your T acted the way he did out of genuine concern for you, at the same time I do think he missed the real point of what you were needing in that session. Maybe when you talk to him about him (Edit: Freudian slip there lol, I meant 'it'), he'll be clearer about what his intentions were. Hope so anyway - and good for you for being prepared to talk about it all with him.

(((( Frog ))))

LL

quote:

I'm just wondering whether others also find that if a T was compassionate about it, would that actully encourage more SH?

Froggy, Lamplighter, et al,

I was really ambivalent about Froggy’s T’s response, and I didn’t think my confusion (I don’t know if that’s the right word) around the topic would be helpful. But after reading LL’s questions I figured I’d jump in.

I know that my T is a big believer in that therapists should create a new therapy for each patient…. Meaning that what might be the right thing to say or the right way to act with one patient might be wrong for another. So for this situation I didn’t feel like I could say “that’s wrong that your therapist responded in that way” just because that’s not how my therapist responds to me... know what I mean? I don’t know your therapy, Froggy, and I’m sure your T knows you better than I do.

Now to go back to LL’s question.. I quit SH on my own before I started therapy, and I haven’t since, even though I have been tempted a handful of times. Every time I’ve expressed the temptation or attraction of SH to my T his response has been only sympathy, compassion, and my feelings around the SH, not the actually SH itself.

That response has been a standard for my therapy, whether its drinking, drugs, shoplifting, sex, or anything negative. He ignores the actually thing and goes straight to my feelings. I remember the session right after I lost control when I went shopping and stole a bra... (I struggled with a very strong shoplifting addiction for about 5 years) It was one of those times where I didn’t even really need a new bra, and I had the money in my wallet to pay for it, but the thrill of shoplifting is too intoxicating. Anyway, when I told my T about it he flat out said, “I couldn’t care less that you stole something, I’m only concerned with your feelings around the event.” I gave him a very detailed walk though of shoplifting, from getting in my car to drive to the store, to trying on items or sticking them in my bad, to walking out of the store and making it to my car, focusing on all the emotions. At the end of the session I remember he reiterated again that the shoplifting is really no big deal, and he’s not mad at me at all. The fact that he was so casual about shoplifting seriously took all the fun out of it. It wasn’t this bad thing that I was doing anymore, and if I couldn’t get in trouble for it, or get attention for being a bad girl, then what’s the point???? I haven’t shoplifted since I stole that bra, and that was maybe 7 or 8 months ago, and I have no intention of ever shoplifting again.

Wow that turned into a long post. Summary= For me, my T showing support around something negative hasn’t encouraged me to continue doing it. I don’t think its right for everyone though, and I know that my T knows me well enough to know what would be helpful to me.

Dear LL and Mac, i am thankful for your different view on this. And Mac- i am very glad you chose to share your experience with me. it all makes sense, and your T seem to have found his way to help you in best possible way, by focusing on your feelings, rather then blaming your actions. It makes sense. I guess its reassures and valid my first repond (anger, and more shamful feelings) at T`s reaction in the beginning- a la first poster.- That i should have expected him to be more compassionate, and i must have thought he would be, hence to my dissapointment when he didnt react like that. BUT: in afterreflection, i do still tend to believe that T reacted good. It may not be the way i WANTED him to react, but it was indeed helpful. And i understand why he would react like it too. After all- I ended up throwing that needle,as a natural follow-up to (his reaction), since i now for sure now, that T doesnt want to support or encourage this "behavior". He made that clear, and maybe i needed that, more than his sympathy this time. And *if* he had only been giving me his compassionate warm understnding, i might have taken that as a "reward" and kept going on with sh, in order to ""get" more of that empathy and warm understanding, that i always yearn for. ah.. I dunno. I think its very complicated with me. Lol, everything is! Anyway; i know this was only T`S FIRST/impulsive respons, i am almost sertain that (tomorrow) he will also start digging for the feelings behind the action, work hard to understand and figure a way to help me express the pain in a verbal way, instead of "acting out". Thats hes normal proceedure. I am also thinking that T might have reacted like that, to prove/show me that he does care! I didnt even think that T would bother care so much about it, you know, so in a way- he`s compassion/concern for me- was "prooven" in that strong reacation he had..In a parodoxal way..

oh, anyway- i seriously have to stop speculate about this now, i have to just talk to T about this. Its not bothering me so much anymore.
Just wanted to let you both know MAC and LL, that i appreaciated your view, and i can understand why you both reacted to the "thesis" that a compassionate reaction=encourage SH. Thats indeed a false thesis, and its alot more complicated than that IMO. Mac- just gave a perfect example of how it could be different, and with a great resault, too! Thanks again!

Frog,

I'm sorry that you struggle with SH and that you didn't feel like you had the response that you needed from your T. I see that you've worked that out a bit now.

LL: I think it can vary between T's. Some see any compassion or sympathy regarding SH as a way of encouraging it and others go straight the reasons behind it like Mac's T. I have had issues with SH and I remember the first time that I told my T last December when I had done it again. It had been years since I'd done it and I very casually said that I had been extremely upset and "did something stupid" and T stopped me and asked what it was. I said I didn't want to say and she guessed. I told her she was right and that was pretty much the extent of it. My T didn't react at all. Then again, she rarely reacts to much of anything. She is very empathic, sympathetic comforting etc, but she doesn't react if that makes sense. Anytime I tell her about SH behavior it's as if I'm reporting something as benign as the weather. No reaction at all. It doesn't matter since I am not doing it to get a response from her. It happens when I'm alone and totally overwhelmed with pain and she knows that. I do have an agreement (my idea) that if I choose to do it that I have to tell her about it, but it rarely happens that I actually do it. Last week I wanted to, but I sent her a fax saying I had an urge to SH and then I didn't do it.

So, I think even with the most compassionate of T's that they often don't react to things like SH beyond just matter of fact information gathering. We usually go into what it was that was causing the urge to begin with and don't talk much about the SH itself.