Jones
I have only been with my one T so can't answer your question about gaining ground quickly with a new T (and I gained ground oh so very slowly with my present one too as was happily in denial about nearly everything important in my life!)so please don't ask me

But I feel for you with your dilemma as I try to imagine how I would feel if that was me now. I might be hesitant to start EMDR work now with such a small amount of tme left. I know it can be done on a short term time scale, but I might worry about what it might bring up. But then it might be better to be with someone you know and trust than a newer less experienced T (would a less experienced one do EMDR work I wonder?)

I don't know what things you want of course, nor how realistic your goals are with the things you want, but read on your other thread

quote:

there are other memories that I still really want to be heard on. I want someone to know my experience and to help me integrate it into some full, rich understanding of my life and myself, instead of carrying the wounds around like little crosses.

which makes me think you've got a little bit more work that you could do if you wanted to. Perhaps we've all had too long carrying around our crossses. Jones I hope you can come to a decision comfortably about what to do. I guess whatever you decide it won't be easy for you but hope you will still find support as you do decide.

starfish

Jones, sorry to learn of what you are facing! I don't have any experience gaining ground with a new T. That would be a difficult choice to face, and I imagine if it were me that I would have some anger simmering somewhere under the surface about not having control over the situation. Quick question: when your T says she is leaving the country, does she mean permanently? Or is she just going to be gone for a few months?

My therapist takes extended vacations, 3 or 4 weeks at a time. He's a world traveler. This past year he has been gone 3 times and is leaving in a few weeks to go to the Himalayas.
So, it will be 5 weeks probably between sessions for me. We are doing EMDR work, which will be interrupted once again. When he is gone, I experience set backs, and I really struggle with the feeling of loneliness. I do depend on him to keep me grounded. What should the obgligation be for a doctor to their patient in terms of being there. Obviously everyone deserves a vacation, but should they make arrangements for their patients to be seen during their absence. And is there really any sense in doing so, starting over with a therapist pinch hitting for just a period of a month seems like a waste of time, money and mental energy to undertake. Yet, while they are gone, we suffer dont we? I do see a psychiatrist for med reviews, so he is willing to see me when my T goes away which helps get me through.

Now, my T mentioned to me a while back that he might travel to Asia and Africa for a year in the Fall. Well, I obviously will need to find another T in a few months. This will be very difficult for me to make this transition. I would need to find a T that is willing to support me between appointments. We email each other, and sometimes talk on the phone. How many T do email? Its too depressing to think about right now, maybe he will change his mind about the year long sabbatical, and I feel selfish for even thinking this way. He is living his life to the fullest, unlike me.

Hiya,

Thanks you guys. Starfish, that does sort of sum up what I want (thank you for the forensic work! ). And I want to feel settled and fully engaged in my relationship and my work, though both are under control they still feel kind of fraught and fragile - at some level I still feel like "I don't know what I want and I just can't do it!!"

MH, what you wrote about anger made me think 'oh yeah, I DO feel angry!!' That is good to know - but I don't know what to do with it - seems futile *because* I can't control the situation. What are we supposed to do with anger that can't change anything?

She is going permanently. I live somewhere where ex-pat T's are the best match for me, because I'm an ex-pat. That also means there's a high likelihood of T's moving on - but even the locals here tend to move around/leave a lot. The turnover rate at the practice my husband and I have been at in the last year has been quite remarkable. My husband's had to change T's. But I thought I was relatively safe because my T is a director.

Lizzygirl - how frustrating. I know there is research on couples where one partner travels a lot, and it tends to show a huge amount of relationship strain as they each go through abandonment stuff over and over again - breaking attachment and re-establishing it. It must be the same for clients of traveling Ts. I think I would really want to throw in the towel - unless I felt really supported on processing all that feeling.

I don't think you should feel selfish. I think finding a new T for the year could give you an opportunity to start something more stable with someone else - or at least to get some consistent support with the absences. He's living his life fully, but part of you living your life fully might be getting a stable, deep relationship for healing.

For the record, at my T's practice we are told we have access to the other Ts if ours is on holiday - it's just a little safety net, but I've never used it. But we have no contact at all with the Ts outside of appointments. There are times when I've wanted email contact but not having it has definitely helped me to feel LESS bonded to her! And that helps right now.

quote:

Does anyone have any GOOD experiences of gaining ground quickly with a new T?

Hi Jones,
I'm really sorry for what you're going through, for the record, I would find the lack of stability to be very uncomfortable and I can understand your hesitation starting a new treatment when you don't know how far you'll get before having to switch.

On the upside, I can answer your question yes with the possible exception that my idea of "quickly" is probably a LOT longer than other people's. I saw my first T, a woman, on and off for around 20 years and developed a pretty deep relationship with her. It was while working with her that I recovered the memories of sexual abuse and we did a lot of trauma processing together. She also did a lot of work on my self-esteem and learning to find my voice. And getting in touch with my anger. Forgive me, but I'm going to tell the long version of this story because it makes my point better that way.

My husband saw my present T on a very irregular basis for around 10 years and about four years ago when we decided we needed couples counseling we decided to see his (then) T. I was still seeing my first T for individual sessions. Things had been kind of stalled for awhile with my first T, there seemed a point past which we couldn't go because I was getting too scared (I later figured out why, but that's a post for another day). At the beginning of 2006 we went on a rollercoaster ride. My MIL, who lived with us and was deeply loved by the whole family went into the hospital for a three week stay during which we were told at one point to prepare ourselves she wasn't going to make it. She pulled through, but it was a tough three weeks of worry and hospital visits. Just after she got out of the hospital, we went on a family vacation (which has been planned for awhile). We arrived home late on a Sat night and on Sunday morning, I got a call from my best friends' husband. She had been having health problems for the last several years, but had recovered really well after a heart attack, was in better shape then she had ever been and had talked to me right before vacation about how excited she was to be getting back to her life. Her husband called to tell me that when him and the kids came back from church, he found her dead in her chair. She had a heart attack. This woman was a second mother to my children and a sister to me. It was devastating for my family. There were other complications to the situation that made it even more difficult to deal with her death. Let's just say I don't like her husband. A few weeks later, my sister called to tell me our mother had Hodgkins Lymphoma and was starting chemo. (She has since made a full recovery.) A few weeks after that, my father-in-law died of advanced Alzheimer's (he didn't recognize anyone by then, including his wife of 55 years). So we planned a funeral.

To say that at this point, I was feeling at the end of my rope doesn't quite describe it. I was desperately trying to get my balance. So I went to a session and my therapist told me she was retiring in August (this was early May). I literally started sobbing BEFORE she finished the sentence. I remember literally screaming at God "what are you thinking?!?" I could NOT believe after what I'd been through over the last four months that on top of it I was losing my mainstay. I wrestled with God for ahwile but finally made the decision to trust him. At the time I felt trapped because I couldn't believe that I could ever form another relationship like that with another T but at the same time I still felt like I had issues.

During the couples counseling, I had started to trust my husband's T (and he was one of the few people who really got what it meant to me to have my first T retire). So my first thought, looking for security, was oh I'll go to him. When I discussed it with my husband, he really wasn't thrilled and we talked to our T about it and he'd agreed it wouldn't be a good idea, so I decided to just do without an individual T for awhile. As we continued to work together, I found myself developing feelings for him and eventually scheduled an appt alone and told him how I felt. This eventually (with my husband's consent and after we had all discussed the situation togheter) to my working with our T individually.

OK, here's the good part. As amazing as my first T was, and for all the progress I did make, I have gone to a whole new level with this man. I have made more progress in the last three years (remember I said it was MY idea of quick? ) than I think I made in the previous 12 and have broken through and healed in areas I had despaired of EVER getting through. I then had to apologize to God. So the thing that was so awful when it happened, having my first T retire, turned out to be the thing I needed to move on and be led to this man to finish my healing. We're working on my leaving therapy now (talking about leaving kind of kicked up a lot of stuff we're working through) and I can honestly say that it was all for the best.

So if you feel like you still have things to work through, I would look for another T. It sounds like your options may be limited but if you can find someone who has trauma/attachment experience I think it would be really helpful.
AG

Hi AG,

Sorry it's taken me a while to come back to this. I really appreciate the sharing - three years is actually fairly quick in the grand scheme, I think, for the kind of healing I've seen you write about with your present T. And being reminded of that I think yeah, I do still have aches inside for understanding and contact and healing, and even if I can't have that now, I can acknowledge the feeling of need. I guess I've learnt that for me if I don't acknowledge it it pushes me towards unhealthiness in my relationships - seeking out the closeness wherever I can find it, isolating myself in the process, if that makes sense.

We had our first couples session today, so I saw my T and felt really glad she was there, and that she knows me. Now I'm starting to *feel* about her again and about her leaving. It's confusing but it's a relief.

Although I don't have a belief in God I have this belief in the total amazingness of the universe. I feel like for the moment in that belief I can quit fighting the loss that's coming and let the universe carry me through to the next thing.

I really feel for you for the story of that nightmare time in 2006. I've had a few years like that, where death and illness and disruption just kept on piling up. This last year hasn't been the worst but it has been a tough one. It's sometimes hard to remember that it's NOT normal, that it affects us, and that we need extra care through that stuff. I think it's too easy, coming from a difficult or abusive background, to lose the connection between the events and the feelings, to lose sight of the fact that it's not always like this, and that we DIDN'T cause it.

I'm so glad you got through it.

J

Hi Jones,
No worries about taking a while, we all have lives. I'm so glad that you're able to be compassionate with yourself and give yourself permission to seek out healing. I'm glad the feelings are coming back, even if some of them can be painful, they're your feelings and you should be able to have them.

I totally agree with what you said about forgetting that those kinds of stressful times aren't normal. I remember when we were going through it, I would continually catch myself thinking "what's wrong with me, why aren't I handling this better? and having to stop and REALLY think about just what was happening. It helped me slow down and take care of myself.

I'm glad I got through it too. Thank you for your kindness.

AG

So I now have just three more individual sessions left before my T leaves, though I had a bit of a freak-out yesterday and booked an extra appointment for tomorrow. I'm feeling weird and scared about that at the moment so I wanted to write about it.

The big issue for me with my T leaving has really been fear about who I will be 'left' with. My T was really good about this at first, and assured me that we could work together on who I would be transferred to, so that I could have some choice on that and her support with the transfer. That was really really reassuring. We talked through a list of priorities for what I want (someone experienced, experienced with their own therapy, psychodynamic, older than me, can work with language & imagery). Then we left that question for a while and dealt with other stuff (EMDR, etc).

Week before last I was getting worried about it again so I asked at the end if we could discuss it the next week, she said we could. Then last week we took about ten minutes towards the end of the session to discuss this and her leaving. She told me the name of the person she wanted to transfer me to, and also said that leaving was the hardest thing she'd ever had to do. She was tearing up (but sort of about the gestalt of leaving her clients, not me in particular). She said she was really aware of how betrayed I felt by my mother, and that she really didn't want to repeat that, to mess it up for me, because of how the therapeutic relationship is necessarily parental. She told me that if she were my mother she would put a big sticker on my mirror saying "believe in yourself".

Well, all that was sort of really nice in some ways, but also not the sort of thing I connect with easily - like it came from the relationship we could have had if she was sticking around, but she's not, and I just don't feel that openness of connection to her, probably because I DO associate her with my mother.

Anyway, part of the emotional background is that we had also been talking about how deep down (but disconnected) angry I feel with my mum for trading my OK dad for a really shit step-dad, and then never acting to protect me. She is encouraging me to feel all that anger but I really feel like it's not the right time, with her leaving.

When I got home I looked up the practice's website to read up on the person she is transferring me to. At the top of the page was one of the other T's currently available too. This other one looks significantly older, more experienced and qualified, works specifically with art therapy, attachment, psychodynamically etc. The one I'm being transferred to is younger, doesn't seem to be especially experienced, has no noted creative interest or specialisation. (One of my explicit goals throughout has been to open up my creative practice.)

WTF? Suddenly slammed with major transference hurt... she said she was looking after me but she's not... I feel like my needs have been asked for in lip service and other factors have actually determined the decision. My head's been racing through all this stuff, I feel sure that the other therapist would be better for me but that she is being given to more needy clients, or that I'm being given to the less experienced T because I'm an 'easy' client, or something. I don't understand. My T didn't say anything to describe the new T or why she was referring me to her, but has already set up for the new T to come meet me at the end of my next couple's session. I know that part of my hurt and panic about this is that it feels so familiar, that on the surface I'm being looked after but actually my needs have nothing to do with the decision being made, and I don't have a say in it.

I couldn't sleep last night so about 5 in the morning I wrote to the practice to ask for the extra session tomorrow. They fitted me in, but my T didn't know about it when I mentioned it to her at the end of our couple's session today.

I know it was the right thing to do to ask for the extra session. I feel really horrible about the situation and I know we won't get time to talk about it otherwise. I know by now that when I feel horrible the only chance for repairing it is through actually talking about it.

But holy f*ck I feel scared about going in tomorrow. I feel like I've stolen time I'm not entitled to, and that I'm going in there to raise all this yucky stuff, hurt and anger and betrayal, just when she's about to leave anyway, and when I actually really need her on-side to help me figure out what the hell is going to happen next.

So, as I'm writing this I'm making all these connections to my mum... I think with my mum I never felt angry at her because actually I needed to keep her on-side for her protection and so she didn't disappear. I think I was really scared that she would start seeing me how my step-dad saw me - sometimes I felt that hate from her too, so I would just try to be as loving and lovable as possible so as not to set that off. And I felt like if I got angry at her she would just give up, give up on parenting or on life in general, she would have an excuse, because I knew she didn't really want to be doing it anyway....

Ugh, well, all of that is really informative and interesting to see - but I still feel really really scared about tomorrow!! What on earth am I going to say?!

Oh Jones. Sorry you are in this difficult place right now. I am guessing the fact that there are connections to your mother further complicates things and is making it all feel more intense. I think it would be difficult to avoid feeling like your T isn't caring for you because of that connection to your mom. (I mean MUM ) From what you described it really sounds like she does care deeply and is concerned for your well-being. I hope you are able to tell her what need her know about your hurt and betrayal in your session tomorrow - you deserve to have her hear you and you ARE entitled to your time with her. The experience may give you a chance to feel a connection with her before she leaves, and maybe let you 'celebrate' how far you have come. I hope you can work through it with her and feel better.

Oh Jones no wonder you are feeling overwhelmed that is really heavy stuff you’re going through right now. I’m so glad you did make an extra appointment this is all stuff you have to be able to talk about with T and the sooner the better.

From what you’ve already explained about your T she sounds like she would know exactly (and be understanding of) the kind of upheaval and doubts and fears and anger that you’re going through so I really hope you CAN confront her tomorrow about the T she’s transferred you to. There may well be an explanation that is ok with you but you’re right it is YOUR therapy and YOUR needs and to not be consulted or included in a major decision like that I know I’d be really enraged (and terrified at the same time). I get exactly what you mean about not wanting to show any anger in order to keep her on-side - but I think that as a T (and a good one at that) she’s highly unlikely to take it personally and anyway it is important that you make it really clear what you are looking for in a replacement T. You need to come first.

So maybe it is raising past connections for you but that doesn’t mean that what you are feeling and perceiving now is ONLY about the past - this is a real here and now shit situation all round and needs to be dealt with in the here and now. You have all the time in the world later to look more in depth at what’s going on in you in regards to the past (it’s not going to go away!) right now you need to do whatever you can to make yourself safe and certain for the immediate future.

I’m inclined to agree with you about not going into the anger about the past right now because she is leaving so soon and who needs to have to deal with those kinds of dangerous feelings when you’re going to have to start again with a new T and go through it all again. BUT I really think you need to be able to express some of the anger you are feeling at HER while she is still around - I suspect you won’t get that connection for closure you’re needing with her so long as you’re having to control totally justified and legitimate angry feelings.

But wow do I relate to that awful tearing stuck feeling of impotent anger and need colliding at the same time - the way you describe the set up with your mum and step-dad - having to be good and biddable and loving and stuffing your own needs and wants and feelings so as not to lose what scraps of protection and caring you were getting…

Jones I so hope tomorrow’s session will let you get some of these things sorted - just want you to know I’ll be thinking of you and backing you all the way.


Lamplighter

{{{{{{{{{Jones}}}}}}}}}}
I'm so sorry to hear about the hurt and anger and betrayal you are feeling after reading about these two T's. I don't know if it helps to hear this but I would have drawn exactly the same conclusions you have. This one is especially familiar with respect to my mom (mum ):

quote:

that on the surface I'm being looked after but actually my needs have nothing to do with the decision being made, and I don't have a say in it

I'm really surprised your T hasn't mentioned anything to you yet about what this T is like. You deserve to know that ahead of time before you are introduced, and you deserve to be part of the decision-making process. It makes tons of sense that you need extra time and attention to process this. You are entitled to that, so you are not "stealing" your T's time.

But it is such a scary thing to do, letting our attachment figure know we are feeling angry, hurt, betrayed...because so many times in the past it just brought down more hurt on us, so we learned to bite down on it, crumple it up and swallow it down like they do with secrets written on paper scraps in those really bad spy movies. I was never able to tell my former T how angry, hurt, and betrayed I felt in response to things he said and did, even though I felt that way very strongly several times. And I've never been able to do it with my mom either without being backed into a corner first, and then when I do, I melt down and become practically hysterical (not real effective). My current T once asked what it would be like for me to talk to my mom about my feelings associated with her and how her behavior is still affecting me...and everything in me still says "nothing doing!" So IMO, going in there tomorrow with so much inside you screaming "do not do this!" is a very courageous thing to do, and I really admire you for it.

I hope the case turns out to be that there are qualities this T has, which are not obvious from the description, that in your T's mind might make her a better fit for you. Whatever it turns out to be, you are so right, the only way to resolve this is to go in and talk about it. So "great job" for making that extra appointment right away! I'm really glad you did it, and will be pulling for you tomorrow. I hope you get some answers that make sense and show that you really are being cared for in the way you deserve. Please let us know how it goes.

Hugs,
SG

Wow. I can see where all of these feelings are coming up for you. I think making the extra appointment was absolutely the right thing to do. I think it is all you can do. You deserve some answers about your T's choice and certainly some more info about this new T. I hope that the appointment goes well and you get some closure and some answers. I look forward to reading your update.

Hi everyone,

Your messages all really helped - thank you so much. It's just so good to have a place to come where people just 'get it'.

Well, I just got back from the extra session, and I'm SO glad I made the appointment - I got so much from it. Stand by for blow-by-blow.

I started by saying I hoped it was ok to make the extra appointment - I felt so nervous saying this that I literally choked on my words and had to repeat myself!! But my T said it was absolutely okay, that I was reaching out for something I wanted and that was a 'woohoo!' moment. That was really nice, made me feel really welcome.

And then we slowly teased out how I was feeling about the transfer, about what it was bringing up for me. I started by saying just that I was really anxious about starting with someone new and that I wanted to hear more about why she'd picked this person.

She said the new T is a really curious, gentle, language-oriented person, and she had a really strong instinct that we'd work well together, because of her manner. That she likes to find out stuff, rather than judge, and that she's good at noticing dissonance and working it out.

Eventually I worked my way around to saying everything - about having read the bios, and feeling like the other person would be a better fit, and feeling angry about that, and how I connected it with feeling like my mum didn't take care of me in her decisions. My T gave me LOTS of subtle encouragement with all that - saying how anger was a normal part of this process, and she hadn't heard anything about anger from me yet, etc... (ok, not so subtle! ).

As soon as I knew she had had me in mind when she made the choice of person, I felt much better, and it was easier to work through the rest of the stuff - and some really interesting things came up.

She said she felt like she and I have very different rhythms - that I am very ruminative and she bounces round like a pinball - and that my 'rhythm' was part of what guided her choice. She said she had been very mindful of this difference as she and I worked and thought it had caused some dissonance along the way. That's true, and it was really good to hear her perspective on it - that my feeling of us not being a perfect fit was grounded in some ways, but also not a cause for judgement either way. I was able to tell her how much it meant to me that we had been able to repair the dissonance. And not just do the big drama of an apology/reconciliation (which is what would happen in my family) but that she then was really attentive to what had happened, and never forgot it, but integrated it into what we talked about and the way she was with me. She pointed out that actually there wasn't a very good 'fit' between me and my mum & stepdad, either, so the experience was really layered for me, and the chance to repair it and be taken care of was really important.

Anyway, there was lots and lots of other stuff, but it was just basically a really special session. A big new insight for me was about my creative work. I told her how I'd learned from her that my relationship with this work was really my relationship with myself, and that I could see how much there was to do still by the way I feel about that - uncertain, erratic, can't trust it, don't understand it, don't have permission, etc. She then hit me with how exactly all of that is my relationship with my mum!! I hadn't seen that before & it got me between the eyes.... We had been talking about how knowing that I was being triggered about the transfer was what let me make an appointment to sort it out. She said knowing past stuff was being triggered about this would let me work with it the same way - to fully engage with it, move forward into it with agency.

Oh, AND we talked about language, and how I'd realised that keeping silent was a really safe position for me, allowed me to love and be loved because in that space I have this really amorphous identity - it can change or adapt any old way. But maybe this holds my work in a really limited position - because I can't express a whole bunch of stuff that would define me more definitely.

ZOMG so much stuff... & all sort of coming together.... I'm so glad I made that appointment.

Thanks heaps to all of you for tiding me over with this.

(((((((((((((((((everyone)))))))))))))))))

J

Hi Jones

Sorry I am late coming to this thread. But wanted to say how pleased I am to hear that you had a really positive session when you went back and raised your concerns. It seems that your T has chosen your new T with care, to try and get that 'good fit' that is so important. I like also that she says your new T is gentle and curious, both brilliant T qualities and balance each other.

I know what you mean about the safety of silence

quote:

this holds my work in a really limited position - because I can't express a whole bunch of stuff that would define me more definitely.

Oh yes, indeed. How true. My T says silence gas been my friend, I am always scared to speak out about the really tough things in my life, even do it here for the same fear, even though I know this is a safe place. I'm glad that your new T is language-orientated, that might give you the confidence abnd encouragement to learn to break out of the silent mould.

Well done Jones, I am so glad you had that conversation and made that connection with your T.

starfish

((((( Jones )))))

That is so good to hear! All that (understandable) angst and fear and doubt and it was really worth it! Are you happy about the new T you are being transferred to? It sounds as if your T really was thinking of your needs in that case and it's so good that she could allay your doubts so that the session became really productive. From your description of the new T she actually sounds great.

You've had loads of insights isn't it wonderful when things occasionally click into place in a positive way? Makes the pain meaningful.

I find it interesting that she commented on how you two weren't a totally good fit - even though you sensed it all along it must be good to have it validated by your T. Just goes to show though that Ts can be a not good fit for umpteen different reasons - I guess I just assume they are adaptable and flexible enough to adapt their style to what the client needs rather than stay fixed in the one way of being. But then they wouldn't be as spontaneous and natural as they could be and that too might get in the way. Gah this therapy business is so complex.

That is really interesting the connection between your creative work and the relationship with your mother - I wonder whether your creative work is always underpinned by its being done to get approval from her (or the world as representative of her?) Just a random thought because that's how it is for me. I also get the having an amorphous identity - having to adapt who one is in order to get - don't know about you but I absolutely hate it, there's this huge drive in me to just be me, authentically no frills ME which sets up enormous conflict between that and how I feel I have to be in order to survive and get scraps of what I need.

Anyway well done you - it sounds like you're in a really good place now to deal with your T leaving and starting with a new T. Big hugs to you.

Lamplighter

LL,

I'm happy *enough* about it, just from knowing that it was a conscious choice with me in mind - not just the default because of everyone else's needs, which is what I was scared of. My T has arranged for the new one to come in to meet me for 5 minutes at the end of my next couple's session, and she says if it feels wrong then or if I'm not happy with it after about a month of trying her out, I have the freedom to change then (or any time, I suppose, but that's what she suggested). She said she's not infallible, but she had a good feeling about the match.

My fears are still there. I find the transfer/starting again just basically frightening and stressful - I have to be on guard to figure out what this person is like and whether they will be any good for me or not. That feels really in conflict with all the child-like feelings of being in therapy. I feel like some of the weight has been taken away from me by my T's thoughtfulness in this - I'm not totally on my own in it - and it helps too to know that the new T will have the old T's capacious notes, so all that work isn't lost. But it is hard.

As for loads of insights - the whole process of finishing is doing that, we're doing quite a bit of looking back, summing up, seeing where I've come from and to. It's really interesting and after a year feels like a good time to consolidate.

The 'fit' thing - she has adapted herself, slowed down to my rhythm, which has helped a lot. But it's actually really nice to have that instinctive feeling of our difference acknowledged. I guess it's one of those things that can make therapy trickier but is often so intangible it never gets spoken of or defined.

SF - are you finding you're able to say more from working with your T? For me it's incremental - though at first with this T I could hardly say anything, and it wasn't till she gave me permission to be silent that I started finding words.

Thanks again, STRM, SG, LL, Monte & SB.

J

Hey Jones,

That was so awesome to read about your session with your T. I could literally feel the relief oozing out of it! It is completely natural, no matter how confident you are in your current T, to be nervous about the transfer. I think I'd be absolutely petrified.

Just in my last session, my T mentioned how I relied on silence (or, my self-doubt that helped me keep silent) for so long in my childhood, because that was the best way I knew how to be accepted. It's completely the same thing that both you and Starfish struggle with.

I hope your couple's session goes well and that you feel a little better about the new T. It will probably be impossible to be completely relieved of any doubts, but I hope it helps a little!

Take care!!

Jones,

I am so happy to hear that your extra session went well and that you are feeling better about the choice of the new T. That is great that you and your T were able to work so much out.

Hi Jones,

Sorry I'm so late in responding...but I read about how your extra session went, and just wanted to chime in that I was thrilled to hear it went so well! I was so happy to hear that she really did carefully consider what would be best for you. What a wonderful affirmation of her care for you.

SG

Hi Jones,

I'm late at coming on board here too, but wanted to also say that I'm glad you're feeling better about the situation with your T and the new T. I don't envy your situation, but it sounds like your T has done her homework in considering a new T for you, and I'm crossing my fingers for you that this new one is a good fit for you and that it goes well. I look forward to hearing about it! Thanks for keeping us updated on this. Best of luck!!

MTF

Thanks K, DF, STRM, SG and MTF. I think this leaving process is going to be multi-layered. I hate the thought of all the knowledge that she's accumulated about me and my situation just vanishing. I see her this afternoon and I think I want to talk to her about stuff I've never asked her before - I want to know the clinical stuff, how she would describe what is going on with me and my relationship and what she thinks the course of treatment should be and so on. I don't know if I will be able to ask any of this, I've always felt like it was 'none of my business' and would insult her in some way if I asked, by showing that I didn't trust her.

But now I feel like I want to be able to look ahead and see what is coming. How long am I going to be in therapy? Is my relationship ever going to improve? I know she's not a fortune teller, but she must have developed some ideas about this stuff over the year.

I keep thinking I should feel grief at her leaving but I don't exactly or directly. Truth is that I've done so much moving around in my life that most of my relationships have been temporary, and I rarely feel that grief directly. It seemed inevitable and predictable when she said she was going. But I know it's there somewhere too. It's confusing. There's a sense in which I've never really attached to her or any other therapist - they are just doing their job, so it doesn't feel like a bond to me.
And yet I feel destabilized somehow too, like it requires a lot of work to process this. I don't know, very confusing.

quote:

I hate the thought of all the knowledge that she's accumulated about me and my situation just vanishing. I see her this afternoon and I think I want to talk to her about stuff I've never asked her before - I want to know the clinical stuff, how she would describe what is going on with me and my relationship and what she thinks the course of treatment should be and so on. I don't know if I will be able to ask any of this, I've always felt like it was 'none of my business' and would insult her in some way if I asked, by showing that I didn't trust her.

Jones, at the point you're at with her leaving, I think you should just ask her whatever you want to! What have you got to lose? I would think she would understand, given the situation you're in. I say go for it! There could be a lot to be gained in finding the courage to ask such questions! Good luck this afternoon! And let us know how it goes, if you're up to it.

((((Jones))))

MTF

I think those are very valid questions to ask, whether you are ended therapy with her or not. I think any person in therapy is entitled to their diagnosis and a treatment plan. I know I have a copy of mine that my T gave me. She had a harder time stating exactly how long T would take, but was able to give me generalizations based on my diagnosis. I hope you are able to ask the questions and get the answers that you need.

Hiya,

Thanks for the encouragement, you guys. I didn't ask my questions yesterday - it didn't feel like the right time, but I'm hoping to next time.

It was a really weird session and I don't know how I feel about it. My t got really teary almost as soon as I came in, and told me she was having a rough time with the thought of leaving me, and recreating 'bad mum' experiences for me. She said it was a very uncomfortable experience for her. She said we had had some really close times and she felt a wrench at the thought of leaving me.

I don't know how to feel about this, it just confuses me. Writing that above makes it sound like she was sort of laying her feelings on me, but it wasn't like that, I didn't feel like she was trying to get me to make it better (though I did feel that impulse to try and make it better, and I didn't know how). It was just like she was sharing her feelings. I was really surprised and confused and then I started to get really upset.

Anyway, I don't know quite what to think of it, but wanted to update you guys.

Hi, Jones...I can understand how that would be really, really confusing and hard for you...I notice that you said you haven't had the really strong attachment issue, or almost like you can' go there... and now she lets you know right at the end what her real feelings about you are...(((((Jones))))) I don't want to put thoughts of my own that might not resonate but might make sense just because you are feeling vulnerable, so take out your salt-shaker here while you read...but if it were me, this behavior of hers would be triggering a lot of attachment issues...being allowed to see her affection and care for yourself on an emotional level- but right at the end? It is either something she carefully calculated and decided to let you see based on her knowledge of you and what you are able to handle and process, and that ultimately she thought it would be more helpful than less...I tend to think this is the case. Or it was an error in judgement. If this is the case, then all I can say is, oh, Jones... -. Take care of yourslef, Jones, and please be very gentle to yourself right now...because this is a really big deal whatever is happening here, imo- and of course, try talk about it with her next time.

BB

Jones

How very difficult for you - and I find myself in 2 minds now. My first reaction is that she shouldn't be putting her (counter)transference on you. That she should deal with that in her own suoervision sessions. So no wonder it felt a very uncomfortable experience for her, as it would go against everything that she had probably been taught and would feel difficult.

Oooops, pressed 'post' too soon!

Jones

How very difficult for you - and I find myself in 2 minds now. My first reaction (my head I think)is that she shouldn't be putting her (counter)transference on you. That she should deal with that in her own suoervision sessions. So no wonder it felt a very uncomfortable experience for her, as it would go against everything that she had probably been taught and would feel difficult for that reason.

But my heart tells me differently. I always appreciate it when my T shares how she feels a bit, makes me understand her and how she might understand me. Does that make sense??! And my heart heard what you said about how it didn't feel as if she was layering her feelings on you, even though that might have happened. I am glad in a way that she was able to share that you had close times and that leaving felt a wrench, that might go against the grain, but you have obviously shared a lot and she is being true to herself. It's just unusual I guess, but probably harder if you had finished seeing her without any feedback whatsoever.

But I can well imagine how confusing it must have been and why it would have been upsetting to hear. Maybe you realised as she spoke, what you are leaving behind, and that's going to be a loss for you when it happens.

So if you don't mind I'll borrow BB's salt shaker and hand it to you with this post as I press 'post' at the correct time....((((Jones))))

starfish

Oh (((((Jones)))) that is so hard. I agree with what BB and Starfish have posted here. I can see where hearing this revelation at the end would trigger attachment issues and make the pain of losing your T so much stronger. At the same time, I have found value in hearing my T express that she has feelings about the importance of our relationship and that she thinks of me outside of T. I'm not sure how that would sit with me in the context of having to end the relationship, but I imagine it would be both upsetting and validating at the same time. I'm so sorry for the pain and confusion that this transition is causing you.

Hugs,

Hi Jones. I hope you don't mind me responding to your story.

It can be really precious when our Ts share a feeling with us. When I finished my therapy, my therapist made it clear that he was sharing some of my sadness with me, and it helped me to realize that the connection that I felt was real and mutual. Your T's emotions certainly indicate that your relationship has been important to both of you. That being said, however, given the language that she used (e.g., that it was a very uncomfortable experience for her) and the fact that she was visibly distressed, I can definitely understand why you would get upset. It sounds to me like she was letting her own needs get in the way of your needs. As a therapist, it's her responsibility to make sure her needs are met outside of her practice. Whether she was trying to get you to make her feel better or not, you still ended up feeling like you should try to make it better, which is not your job and leaves you in an uncomfortable and unfair position.

Obviously, this is just my impression, and I could be totally off. But in any case, the main thing that I wanted to say is that I'm really sorry that this already difficult experience has gotten harder for you. I hope you're okay.

Hi all,

Thanks, I'm still processing this one and it's good to hear some other perspectives on it, helping me sort out what I do and don't feel about it.

When I reflect on it I think she is sharing this stuff with me with my needs in mind. She is inviting me to feel some stuff that I find it hard to connect to. But I think it is probably there anyway. I think she is trying to help me process it with her, directly, before she goes, rather than indirectly on my own.

The best example of what I mean is that when she first told me I didn't really feel surprised or shocked or hurt or anything, didn't feel like I would miss her or wanted to hold on to her, it just seemed normal and predictable for a person doing a job to need to move to a different place. but that night and in the days following just got flooded and flooded with feelings of worthlessness and images of hurting myself that didn't seem connected to anything.

I don't know where the missing connections are or why they are missing but when she shares these feelings with me I feel really confused and like more of the connecting stuff sort of sparks a little bit. I started to feel like - you were supposed to HELP me, you were supposed to help me resolve these things, we haven't finished. that feeling flashes then disappears again.

I feel like it's 'normal' for her to move on - I've had loads of Ts and no extended relationship with any of them - but she is saying it is painful, this isn't supposed to happen in therapy. She is saying that it hurts, that leaving her practice is one of the worst things she's experienced, and that she has made a resolution with herself that she is never going to do it in her life again.

When I think about that I feel first so puzzled, and a bit like I want to take care of her, but actually I know that's not why she's telling me. It's like she's telling me that it's NOT a throw-away relationship, that whatever is happening now, it shouldn't be like that and she never saw it like that and I shouldn't expect it to be that way or resign myself to it. That we felt things together and it was real and in the normal course of things we wouldn't be finished with that.

I guess I did have a secret hope when we began that this would be the therapist I could work with for longer & deeper, get past some of the surface stuff. To acknowledge that I hoped for that and wanted it is painful. I'm starting to understand why I don't really want to start with someone new, and why I want to know how long I'm supposed to do this for. I don't have any guarantee that the next person will stay longer.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and comments, they each helped.

(((Jones)))
Good to hear you are sorting out some of what is coming up. It helps so much when you can process and stop it from swirling around in your head. As painful as this sounds, I think it is good you are ending in this way with her - and I am glad she is sharing her experience of it with you because it seems to be helping you feel important things that might not have surfaced until she was gone, or at all.
I am really feeling for you though. You say it feels normal to you. Maybe because you have gotten used to it? I know things happen and sometimes T's must leave, but they aren't supposed to leave. Feeling sad for you.

Hey Seablue. Yeah, I think I've gotten used to it. I've had lots of short-term therapy, often in situations where only short-term was available because of my financial circumstances (ie free or cheap treatment with community organisations). Other times I've been on the move myself. Not so much the Ts leaving, though. I've done lots of moving around in my life so letting go of people does feel 'normal'.

Anyway, I just got back from meeting the new T and I'm back to square one. Feeling really awful about it. My T said we would take 5 minutes out at the end of our couples session today, but instead we did it at the beginning for some reason. And it REALLY didn't work for me, which made it very difficult to tune into the couples' session.

I was so worried that the new T would be too young and inexperienced for me to feel comfortable with, but after talking to my T last week I thought it wasn't going to be an issue. We didn't even address the issue of age/experience, I don't know why, this was the thing that worried me most and it was THE thing at the top of my wish list when I wrote one with my T. I do not understand why I didn't address this directly with her when I had my freak-out about the new T.

Anyway, I met her today, and as I feared, she looks really young and really inexperienced. Younger than me. I really don't think I can deal with it, it's totally throwing me. I'm back to wondering what on earth happened to my wish list, didn't my T hear me at all? Did she just forget that we'd done that?

Because of the community-service-therapy thing, and also just by luck, I've had lots of therapy with new therapists. For me it's about as effective as writing in my journal. I do NOT want that now!!!!! God, I feel awful....

We only spoke for a few minutes but she said some kinda dumb stuff. I guess she was maybe a bit nervous/uncertain/unused to the situation/unprepared, whatever. And my T said 'transfers are hard for the client, and they're hard for the new therapist too.' Yep, this is PRECISELY the situation I don't want to be in - keeping an eye out for the T to make sure she is okay, trying not to throw anything too tricky her way, letting her learn on me.

Far out. I don't see my T again until next Thursday and we have two sessions left. I don't want to have to deal with this now!!!! I just don't think it's going to work for me, and I feel really hurt that she didn't understand it would be wrong for me.

((((Jones))))

I'm so sorry that the new T seems to be exactly what you DIDN'T want. How frustrating and disheartening. Can you maybe talk to your T about having a back-up list of sorts? It's kind of pessimistic I suppose, but maybe it would help if you knew that you had a few more names that your T recommended to fall back on. I know it's got to be rotten to feel like this with only two sessions left. I wish I could be of more help.

(((( Jones ))))

Boy that sucks big time! I am really really sorry about your experience with the new T and sure it would be easy to put your negative sense down to all sorts of things and maybe she really is as good as your current T has told you BUT that she appeared nervous and unprepared AND that your T had to justify it to you says to me oh boyo no way! You haven’t come this far and gone through a pretty shitty time with your current T leaving in order to have to deal with the inadequacies and inexperience of a newbie T.

I remember you posting earlier about experience being right at the top of your wish list and from my now considerable experience of meeting new Ts I have to say that for someone of your depth and understanding of yourself and the whole process of therapy ONLY someone with a good track record of experience is going to give you what you need. As you say, who needs to have to be looking out for their T, helping them to do their job?

I’m really sorry I wish I could send you more concrete support in this because I’m feeling so much how I think you must be feeling right now - finishing with a T is bad enough but not having the security of knowing you have a GOOD replacement T is so groundshiftingly scary. I agree with Kashley can you try and prise a few more names and contacts out of your T? Or even start a search yourself maybe make a few appointments? Or could you push to get to see the T that you originally thought might be a better fit for you?

Arrrggh we just had a thunder storm and it clicked out the electric and the backup only saved half my post. Hm. Ok what I was going to say was to do with your comments in your earlier post about having flashes of connecting stuff in response to your T’s disclosure about her feelings on finishing therapy. Damn I can never say things as well the second time around.

When I read what you’d written I suddenly had a sense of your needing something from therapy, a deep emotional connection, that this current T hasn’t been able to provide - something that maybe you yourself are not very consciously aware of. This is me presuming so if it’s bollocks just say so. But I thought, if that’s the case maybe now is a good opportunity for you to really look out for a T who is going to give you that connection - take your therapy to a deeper level. I define connection as being emotionally understood, on an intuitive and spontaneous level and it’s one of those things I know almost immediately when meeting a new T whether they’ve got it or not. So instead of going along with what your current T recommends (considering she may not be aware of all your needs in therapy) maybe it is worth your while to take the time to work through as many new Ts as you need to find the one that WILL last the course, WILL be there for the indepth and longterm support and understanding you are looking for?

Which kind of comes back to my reactions to your description of the new T - every instinct in me is saying NO she’s not the one. Sorry, I’m really reading a lot into your post and have to admit it’s coming from where I’m at the moment, I hope what I’ve said hasn’t been too off the wall or presumptive.

I really hope you are doing ok, you do not need the added pain of being at best uncertain about the calibre of your replacement T, on top of everything else that’s going on. Big hugs to you Jones :hug:

Lamplighter

Oh, Jones....I'm so, so sorry you are going through this. It would be so awesome, if you could have a peaceful and emotionally connected albeit neccessarily sad, goodbye with your T. It really stinks that so far, it doesn't seem to be playing out that way- that you have all this last minute crap stuff to address with her instead. But can you ask her about the other T you researched with more experience and attachment background? Can you just ask her, Jones? Pretty please, for me, just for your little fluffy feathery friend??? One question never hurt anybody, did it? Seriously, I'm only saying this because at times you have so wonderfully challenged me in my own posts- that has helped me so much-(it wasn't a soapbox, Jones, it was honest, heartfelt and very helpful, your hand of friendship extended to me in very difficult times, and I thank you for every word of what you wrote on my thread, there- I just wanted to say that to you now, because I seem to having hard times responding to what you and the others wrote there, I just get all choked up) Anyway, as I was saying, it helps to see things a bit clearer, from your perspective- and to think, yeah, maybe I can do that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I imagine, it would just be so hard to admit that you researched the available T's on your own...it would be like admitting to her, that you don't entirely trust that she has your best interests at heart...but the reality here, seems to be, that you in fact don't feel yet, completely able to trust her, on this issue, at least- and whether that has it's origins in the past and has no basis in reality or the truth (i.e. maybe she truly does have your best interests at heart and has put a lot of thought into the right T for you) or if she is being thoughtless/misunderstanding your very real and legitimate needs- it is still very painful stuff either way, and must, unfortunately, be dealt with. It just really sucks that it has to be now at the end.
Just know, you absolutely, without any qualification at all, need and deserve to be directed towards the T who has the experience and expertise to help you with what you want to acheive. I think I get it Jones...your issues dictate, that you need someone "bigger than you" that you need not feel the need to take care of yourself since you will probably always be feeling like you have to take care of to some extent, even of a T who is very self-possessed, until you get over that hump. This is a very real, very legitimate need. My T is totally experienced, very self-possessed, lots older than me, a man, somewhat intimidating even, in some respects- and I will *still* bump into this problem with him- with a T my age/gender/and inexperienced, it would be a wash, I *think*- however...your T know you best, and it could very well be that she *really* thinks and has good reasons of her own, to think this new T relatiionship is what will help you the most, to be on more equal footing. They are pretty smart in their sneaky ways, I've noticed- they know or suspect stuff about us sometimes that we don't understand ourselves. That being said, this is what worries me most in your post:

quote:

And my T said 'transfers are hard for the client, and they're hard for the new therapist too.' Yep, this is PRECISELY the situation I don't want to be in - keeping an eye out for the T to make sure she is okay, trying not to throw anything too tricky her way, letting her learn on me.

I think it seems absolutely important to talk about this before she leaves. Of course you know that, but I want to support it. It really seems very reasonable to want a T that isn't made nervous in any way by the transfer, is used to and capable of handling such a tricky thing very well, Jones.

I'm so sorry it is so hard right now.

Wish I could give you a million hugs. ((((((Jones))))))

BB

Jones

Aw that sounds really hard, especially as she'd been billed as being picked for you as potentially so good. I know we shouldn't go on first impressions, but they do seem to influence us a lot and I agree that I would also find it ard to have a much younger T, though I'm not sure why. Is it the inexperience or the age or a mix of both??

This is made even harder I think because you only have 2 sessions left, which has its own pressures and sadness. What you really want to do is to be able perhaps to concentrate on those sessions, making the closure as good as possible and not have to put all your time and energies into thinking about the new T instead. Sorry Jones for your hurt, take care

starfish

So many thanks to you folks. I will come back to respond later - just want to say how much I appreciate your care & listening & thoughts on this situation, which SUCKS. You each help me a lot.

Hi all,

Well, I'm feeling a little better, but basically bummed out by this situation. So lovely to get these notes and have support and validation about what I'm feeling.

Kashley - hug back to you my friend, you do help. My options are a little limited, but there are options. The situation is that I need to stay within this practice, for various reasons - coordinating with the couples counselling & my husband's T is one of them. But there are numerous Ts that work there, and there are a couple of others that might suit me. One is the art therapist I mentioned above, with the attachment background. One is a male T, my age or a little older but apparently with a fair bit of experience. I'm reluctant to go with him, basically because I don't really want to go headlong into an extreme attachment rollercoaster, for my own or my husband's sake, especially without being absolutely sure that he has enough experience not to be phased by it.

So the art therapist seems like a good option. And my T *has* said that if I felt like this T I met was wrong immediately, we could look at the other options (I just haven't had the chance to say that's the case yet). She's not *making* me go with this, and I suspect she'll support me if/when I make it clear I can't do this.

And I really feel like I can't.... My last T was about my age, and she was lovely, kind, insightful and so on, but I could never 'hand it over' to her, so to speak. I can't be in that situation any more.

LL, I think you are quite right - I do feel like "ONLY someone with a good track record of experience is going to give you what you need." Whether that's right or wrong, that's how I feel. And I feel like unless this woman is some kind of therapeutic genius there's a certain level of trust I am never going to be able to hand over to her - because frankly, I have worked pretty hard in my life to know myself and to understand people, and why would I trust her over myself?

Is that crazy? Should 'handing over trust' really be part of the process? Am I being colossally arrogant here? All of these things have made it hard for me to insist, as loudly as I feel, that I NEED experience from someone above all.

quote:

When I read what you’d written I suddenly had a sense of your needing something from therapy, a deep emotional connection, that this current T hasn’t been able to provide - something that maybe you yourself are not very consciously aware of.

LL, you're spot on here. I'm not sure I can actually ever have that or if it will ever be for me the way it seems to be for other people, but part of why my current T's recent words have spun me out a bit is that I feel like it's now revealed we WERE working towards that deep, long connection. I just don't believe I can have that with someone my own age, because of the person I am. Many of my closest friends have been 10, 20, 30 years older than me as it is.

BB, I promise I will ask for the art T. Especially seeing you asked so nicely. (And thank you for the gorgeous thank you!) You're right it was hard for me to even admit that I had looked on the practice website!! Because of that issue about trust you point out. I know I'm being SO triggered here, this is a lot like my relationship with my mum... pretending I trusted her utterly so as not to hurt her, meantime looking after myself.... Anyway, I guess when it comes down to it she doesn't know some of the background here, that I've had inexperienced Ts before and so on... or @#&%#, I don't know, she just didn't HEAR me about my needs, or forgot. This is what really really sucks and hurts. She tried, but it wasn't good enough. And I HAVE to think something else was getting in the way, or why wouldn't she come back to my list of priorities and be guided by that? Especially when she was saying she was so concerned about NOT meeting my needs. I don't understand.

SF, thank you... that's right about first impressions, with my last T I thought "oh, I'm just being prejudiced, I'll get over it" but I didn't exactly. We worked well together but that's different to really being able to be HEALED by someone at that deeper level. And yeah, a mix of the age and the experience. I suspect it's about whether I actually feel like I can have a transference experience with them.

Monte, you're right about all the complexity of those tears. It makes it hurt more that I took them in, took in her expression of really caring about me, and then feel like she just got it so wrong. I don't think I want to meet the new T once - I feel like that would make it harder to say I didn't want her, whereas now I can just say it's NOT personal to her, it's just a gut reaction.

Well, I'm quite sure I'm going to say I can't deal with this T, and that I need someone else. The main issue for me is to try to then restore that sense of connection with my T despite this. When I had my extra session with her and came away feeling like she had me in mind, that she really was thinking about me, and I started to feel really positive about the transfer - like I was being handed over quite delicately, with care.

Now that feels wrong, like there was some other agenda that hasn't been spoken and I just can't see it.

Jones would it be possible for you to get to meet several of the potential Ts at the practice? It sounds like you are leaning towards the art therapy T (who sounds pretty good in terms of expertise and approach) but maybe having a choice, getting to check out two or even three in person before deciding might be helpful to you? I think I’m saying that because I have personal reservations about art therapy (I do think it’s a fantastic approach I’m not taking issue with the therapy itself) it’s just that it’s such a strictly non-verbal style of therapy that I found it impossible to do the creative stuff without shooting myself in the foot with all the thinking ABOUT what I was doing at the same time.

Having said that it’s really all down to how you feel about the person herself, whether that clicking is there or not in the first place - which is also why I think it might be a good idea to meet with more than just one T (of course maybe that one IS the right one so it’s academic really).

Sorry just bumbling about here trying to give advice (ha something I seem to have fallen into lately).

What I’m really hoping is that in your next session with current T she will show that she really is looking out for your needs and the sense of something not right will be resolved. But it’s hard to have to stand back and think hm maybe this person hasn’t got it right what’s going on here am I totally on my own in this after all...

Jones you needn’t settle for second best - you know what you want and there is no law that says we can’t get what we want (though it’s hard not to believe that most of the time Thinking of you :hug:

LL