BG: Oh he is consistent alright, - I think one hour and forty five minutes consistent! I think I shall just give in and luxuriate in it. (But warn him again that he needs to give me warning ATH THE BEGINNING if it is going to be a one houru and fifteen minutes session)

STRM: you mean you have to PAY for the extra time?!?!?!?!?! I would feel most annoyed and mixed up about that. Isn't it confusing. It is my T's main 'fault' and the fact it is in my favour makes it even harder to address.

Sadly,
Please know that I am writing this out of concern for you. This pattern deeply concerns me. With someone like you who has a history of relationships with therapists who have not done a good job holding their boundaries, I find it very worrisome that you are once again in a place with a therapist who is not doing a good job holding an important boundary.

Add his time-keeping to the fact that he has made major changes in the way he practices with you (I know that your take is that he thought long and hard and that this was an opportunity for him to grow as a therapist, and change his treatment, wisely based on a patient's need and I completely concede that there is merit in that view and times when it is true. It's setting off a red flag because I am seeing it in conjunction with his not holding session times. FULL DISCLOSURE: I am also seeing it through MY BIAS towards the belief that we are in therapy to change ourselves, not our therapists. They will change but I do not believe it should be the focus of the work.) and there has been a steady increase in contact as reported by you.

You had one T end because he sexually exploited you and the other because she burned out through not holding her boundaries. I am seeing the potential for this relationship to end up either way, with the result that you will once again be left bereft and further damaged rather than healed.

If the extra time and running over is really bothering you then it needs to be dealt with definitely in order for you to be truly safe with him.

AG

Hi Sadly,

I would find the inconsistency really hard and don't know how I would manage with being unsure of timings.

My T warns me 10 minutes before the end and has only once or twice exceeded the 50 minutes. But she always asks me if that's ok and is because I've found it hard to connect with her.
She is also very firm on her contact boundaries and when we were discussing having to rearrange session times she told me she would take account of my needs but would ultimately do what was best for her. This is an important lesson for me to learn - taking care of myself.
I feel very cared for, within this framework, and she has offered to do things for me occasionally when she felt that was necessary, but I always know I have to explicitly ask, that she will only say yes if it's ok for her and that she is responsible for keeping her own boundaries. I can push against them all I like, will be met with care and compassion, but ultimately they will stand. It is working for me.

I hope the discussion goes well and you get some clarity.
Iris xx

I will freely admit... This thread confuses me a lot. I'm just not sure I follow why going over time is an issue, if your T allows it.

Sadly - you seem to have a pretty firm grasp on how you feel and what you feel the need to say.

When I think back to my first session, my T told me about her timer, and that when it went off it was just an indication to her to start wrapping things up, she explained that managing the end time was her job, not mine.

The first time a one hour session got turned into an hour and twenty minutes, I apologized profusely and offered to pay for the additional time. My T told me that she had been aware of the time and that it was a non issue in her mind.

Ocassionally at the beginning of a session she will let me know of another appointment she has etc and warn me in advance that the timer might matter a bit more that day.

I guess, for me... I had to try to figure out that if she said it wasn't an issue, it probably wasn't, and trust that she is a better person to manage her time than I was...

Trusting in her for that is still hard... But when the timer goes off and she carries right on with where we were... It makes it a little easier.

Maybe the 'boundary' thing still just confuses the newby me..

Sadly,

My T has gone over time sometimes, we have an agreement whereby if she has the time to, I can have up to an extra half hour. Mostly we don't, but if it feels helpful to carry on because we are doing deep work and if she has the time, then we will. But I will always pay for that time. I would never consider not, because it is still time she has spent working with me and that keeps the relationship professional and within both our boundaries. I would be alarmed of she were to go over time and not charge me, it would feel like she was changing the rules for me or treating me differently, which would set off a red flag.

As an observer only, it seems like your T is being very keen to please you and in doing so is blurring the boundaries at the edges a bit. I only hope that you don't get hurt by this.

starfishy

Navyme,
The boundaries are important because they are in place to protect both the client and the therapist. Because the nature of the relationship is such that it is all about the client's needs, a therapist MUST get their needs met outside of the therapeutic relationship. Therefore, there have to be limits on their contact with clients, in order to provide the space and time for a therapist to get their needs met so that they can continue to provide adequate care for their patient.

A consistent frame is extremely important. What that frame consists of is often a complex negotiation between any particular client and therapist but it should be consistent, so that a client knows what to expect and a therapist is providing only what they are comfortable providing long term.

In your case, your T has set up a consistent signal and seems to be effectively communicating her boundaries at any given session. And you are comfortable with what she's doing. So this does not present a problem. These are consistent boundaries and ones which you are not bothered by.

But this thread was started by Sadly saying that her T's inconsistency about session length was concerning her. Ts are responsible for holding the boundaries. All the time, in every case, it's their job. A failure to do so in a consistent manner, does not always mean disaster but it should raise a flag.

I have seen it happen in the past, including with Sadly, that a T becomes so involved with a patient that they start moving the boundaries, extending contact, extending sessions because they care so much for the patient. But in doing so, they neglect their own care and eventually can get burnt out and have to pull back. Which means the client then loses their "special" treatment, leaving them feeling devastated. The boundaries can be difficult and painful enough to accept without having them moved in a way which feels like you're losing something. Every time I have seen this happen, it is the client who pays for it.

So my concern was based on the fact that this was bothering Sadly enough to start a thread on the subject and knowing her history with Ts who struggle with boundaries.

Hope that helps, if not, let me know, and I'll try to answer any questions you have.

I've had to think about this a while before chiming in. It's not a simple issue.

My own T has gone over with me on occasion but it's only a question of going for 55 or 60 minutes versus 50. I think if I were really in a bad place or something, she might go over even a bit more than that. Since she does the same for all of her clients, occasionally it means my session has started up to 10 minutes late, and ended equally late accordingly. It doesn't bother me particularly much. So it's not that I think it's necessary for T's to have absolute punctuality on ending exactly on time.

What concerns me about your situation though, Sadly, is your T saying one thing and doing something else. It actually sounds a bit like he has a hard time drawing the line with you even when he really wants to. I find that worrisome. It might feel nice to get "special treatment" but I think there's a danger in it also. If he is giving you extra time that you're not paying for, and it isn't something you discussed, it may leave a kind of implied feeling of debt on your part, or entitlement on his part. And truly to be safe in therapy you NEED a T who is able to set limits firmly. As AG said, this is a bit more concerning in the overall context of your relationship. I do think it's cute and sweet that you give him dog biscuits and joke about him being trainable but in reality, that's not the way it's supposed to go. Sure, it's fine for a T to learn something new from working with someone, or to adjust what they are doing. What's not OK is for them to allow themselves to get charmed by a client (and I'm sure you're very charming, Sadly!) into doing something their better judgment would advise against.

Anyway I'm not sure how to advise you, but I hope that you can get it worked out to something more consistent. You do need and deserve consistency.

Sadly, I managed to find a few of your old posts, but I had a question...

What happened to SteadyT? Did you stop seeing her?

yep - I stopped seeing her - she felt cold and way too rigid for me. Fifty minutes and no contact at all in between. too rigid. too tight.

I appreciated all the comments and it is good that you are all on the look out for me. I shall bring this all up with T when I see him Friday, if I can, and talk it through. He is so open and honest that I think it will be illuminating. What I am dreading is that he will go, "Right then, I will put you back to one hour fifteen minutes EVERY week then.' but we shall see.

You all clocked one thing dead right. I too have been worried that it all might end up being like the abusive T. I say that to sweetP and he says he is not like that, .... but I told him I don't know that. I worry too. Of course I do. Apparently, yes, I AM very charming and sweet myself on the whole and so I can see why these things happen.

It is so hard. But hey, the good news is that You have all flagged it up, and I shall then bring it up in session and see what the man says.

thank you.

quote:

STRM: you mean you have to PAY for the extra time?!?!?!?!?! I would feel most annoyed and mixed up about that. Isn't it confusing. It is my T's main 'fault' and the fact it is in my favour makes it even harder to address.

Absolutely and I wouldn't expect it to be any other way. I would feel really icky if she went over with me and I didn't pay for it. It isn't so much the amount of time of the session for me, it's the inconsistency with regard to what to expect.

I think it can often be a red flag if a T starts offering extra time or sessions and does not require a fee.

Sadly, one thing is that I didn't mean to say that because you are charming and sweet, it's an excuse for anyone to have abused you. Obviously it's not. But at a certain point when you can see a pattern in your life of abuse, then yes of course you're going to look and say, OK, how and why have I allowed people to do these things to me? What were my survival strategies that worked for me when I was little but are getting me in trouble now (even though they shouldn't)?

So obviously in your case, sure, every T should be 100% ethical and competent, so you should be able to go see any T or P in the world and say or do anything whatsoever and never be abused, terminated, whatever. (Because obviously the only boundaries that matter in therapy are the ones you can fight against and LOSE. The rest are just a farce.) That is how it ought to be. But then we come to the real world, where unfortunately we have to watch out for ourselves and from each other. And the pattern that maybe I am seeing with you is that when you run into someone with firm and intact boundaries, you're not interested in that person. They seem cold and rigid to you so you move on. But the people you attach to and choose to trust are the people you can charm and wrap around your finger or manipulate a little. I'm not judging you for this because I can understand why you would have that strategy. Quite probably you feel like being adored and catered to and made an exception keeps you safe and gives you control. Except, it actually doesn't. It kind of does the opposite.

Here's something to ponder, Sadly, that it's taken me a long time to try to wrap my brain around myself. I used to believe that someone else stretching or breaking their own boundaries for me, or treating me as an exception, meant that person loved me. I can understand why I thought that, because my mom was constantly expecting me to break all of my boundaries for her to prove I cared about her. But really it doesn't mean that. It just means the person has poor enough judgment or little enough assertiveness or cares little enough about you or has enough unresolved issues of their own to risk damaging their relationship to you in the long term. I'm not saying your sweetP necessarily fits that mold, but it's something to be aware of.

Kind of a weird one to answer, because my T does this too in his own way.

He gives me extra time and he does not charge for it. My insurance covers 75 minute sessions and we were already doing 90-120 minute sessions before the single case agreement, so he decided to continue with what was working without billing extra. We do still run over sometimes, but we nearly always discuss at the beginning of a session what sort of time period we are working with and stick to it. Honestly, sometimes it will be an EXTREMELY long period, but when he gives me a solid cut-off time, he stays with it (I'm assuming with the exception of a safety issue).

At first, allowing him to do this without being paid extra and not regulate the time very strictly myself was too hard for me. As I have gotten to know him better, I've come to realize that it is just how he runs his practice across the board. He has a big sliding scale, does not expect immediate payment and routinely gives extra time to other clients to get to a natural, positive ending spot. He tends to run 5-15 minutes late all day as a result. That is one benefit of T seeing H. I happen to be the only client who does doubles, but that was upon his suggestion and him seeing positive progress. He himself has decided what he will and will not bill my insurance for (which makes me uncomfortable) as he doesn't want to take advantage of the single case agreement. I am trying to let it be his choice on how he runs his business and what he feels called to offer.

The thing that has been MOST important to me in this process is that every time we have noticed a pattern of difficulty around endings or escalated care in any way, it has been talked about in detail, repeatedly, sometimes for weeks. Sometimes it has resulted in me learning to step back from taking responsibility for and managing his boundaries. Sometimes it has resulted in him admitting a need for him to be more consistent with our scheduling (i.e. now we meet at roughly the same times, for the same lengths of time every week). Inevitably, those conversations have been thorough enough that I feel safe in him taking care of his own needs and boundaries. And the only indebtedness I feel is to accept the less-than-ideal time slots he has open which allows him to offer the amount of time. If I insisted on my ideal time slots, we would likely be limited to 75-90 minutes every time.

Anyway, I don't really know about your history with your other therapists, but I do think that in order to feel safe, you'll have to feel like you can't just train him out of or push over every boundary he puts up. My T will use boundary crossings therapeutically, but there have been certain issues (whether boundary issues or just his personal way of practicing in his business) that he has been unwilling to change when I have expressed frustration. Knowing that actually makes me feel safer. I used to worry all the time (and express to him) a concern of the inside kids making him into road kill, because he is so kind and giving. Seeing him actively defend certain boundaries and business practices that he finds necessary (while I would have LIKED him to work differently) made me feel safe that I'm not going to change him in any essential way. This is important, because there is always this internal sense of there being something about us that has made others be bad to us, either abuse or abandon...

Things he has drawn lines on are:

* Having the exact same session times every week. He has to Tetris his schedule to get in the most clients possible, because of him commuting out here, so he just can't do it. He had a reason for this boundary and I had to take it or leave it. He has tried to get it as consistent as possible (within an hour of the same time).
* He does not write emails. I can send as much as I like, but we will review them in session.
* He cannot guarantee a text response time or consistent level of response, but again I welcome to (and he says he feels blessed by it) send as often as needed. If I need a response, I can ask and he will respond, but other than it being within a day, there's no guarantee.
* It's not as much of a problem anymore, but he wouldn't drop the God stuff, because it's just who he is both personally and professionally. He found ways to reword it to cause less confusion and projecting on my end.

I'm sure there have been a couple of others. None of it has been stuff I couldn't live with ultimately and it really helped me to feel safe that even though he has a very broad frame compared to some other Ts, he has one, knows where it is, and feels comfortable operating within it.

I'm sorry to share so much personal experience, but I guess I'm trying to come from a perspective of someone who has received similar things from their T (touch, extra time), but to reiterate what the others are saying here, which is that it is important for your safety that you know sweetP is capable of setting and keeping to boundaries, so he doesn't violate an essential one (which is different from therapeutic boundary crossings) or burn himself out. And, I think it's essential that even the most minor boundary crossings are discussed explicitly and often. Both T and client should have a clear idea of why it's being done, how it is helping the client (and is NOT for the benefit of the T), how it will impact treatment in the long-run, etc. This is ESPECIALLY true if a boundary is either being moved or is perceived to be moved. For example, when my T decided to incorporate touch into our work, that was a choice to do something he was not currently doing (though he has hugged other clients). However, when he suggested officially making my sessions longer, texting outside of sessions, allowing me to email journals...all of those things were already within his existing boundaries, but PERCEIVED by me to have been outside them, so we STILL needed to have very very very very very very many conversations about them before I began to feel safe (still working on that).

Ugh, I feel like I wrote way too much. I guess I'm just trying to say that getting the extra time or touch or whatever it is that has been negotiated within the therapeutic relationship for the SOLE benefit of the client is, in itself, not wrong. However, a T being unable to hold boundaries IS unsafe and the perception of them being unable to hold them (whether or not it is true) will make many people with trauma histories FEEL unsafe. So, it is VERY important that you have this conversation with sweetP.

I've found that inside kids actually feel safer knowing that they'll get the help they need WITHIN the time and context of T's consistent availability...even if it means having to put stuff away and be sad and miss him and feel lonely and carry it a bit until next time. Being able to push T around does not feel safe. T can be reassuring about how this trauma stuff will take a long time, lots of visits, that we can't do it all at once, that the connection is still there in between, but we have to put it away and part, so we can see each other again and take it back out again. It might hurt, but it feels so safe when he says those sort of things, because I know he's doing what he said he was going to do. So, I can trust him to do other things he has promised, like not abandon us.

Does that make sense? Sorry it was so wordy!!!

Yaku- that is so sweet of you to put so much time in, and I appreciate it. I appreciate everyone else putting time in too, - it helps me to feel a bit safer that I have this forum board here to express concerns, it helps keep all us of safe.

I do worry a lot about him losing boundaries. We discuss it a lot. I have been terrified over the last few weeks that something awful is going to happen, mainly an email out of the blue terminating with me, as the counsellor did at this time scale in with working with her. but I also find it hard sometimes when he is close to me physically and when I told him that he said he was really pleased that was happening. I asked why and he said that previously I did not seem to have a warning system about men being physically too near me and now I seem to have a 'warning' response happening and he was really pleased, which made me feel much safer. He does not take offense - I guess this is where his 24 years of experience of working with women like me comes in, he seems to be ahead of me. This reassures me. And what reassures me even more is that I can take all these worries to him and know that if he is true to form, he will respond appropriately and it will be okay.

Hey, that is progress. "I can tell my T what worries me and it will be okay."

did you just hear that!

Also, he pointed out that the ABUSIVE therapist was 17 years or more ago, I have changed since then and am much more wary and less naive. I have learnt to protect my younger feelings parts of me and not let their innocence take over.


AG: I really appreciate you pointing out that I will end up getting hurt again if this goes wrong again. It IS always the client that ends up damaged by it. the therapist usually walks away intact. I am terrified, and have been from the beginning, that he will terminate with me because I have done something that triggered him, last the last counsellor.

Oh - god, late for work - try to come back here later and post more maybe

((Sadly))
This will be a first for me to speak out so strongly but have been very tempted for a while - have seen and read many of your posts/thread/history and have huge concerns about where you seem to be trying to take 'sweetP' - my feeling is that you do really have to look deep inside yourself - I don't want to be judgemental but sheesh I have a problem when I hear about so many sexual abuses/rapes/interferences by many persons! I apologise if this is offensive to you and that's not my intent but like others, see a very destructive pattern repeating here and fear you might be the architect of more pain for yourself!

Hope you can stand back and take a look and hope you can take my comments in the spirit they've been made.

x Morgs

I didn't see BLT's post, I only opened page two!

I was in SUCH a rush this morning. Infact, I had better stop here and check if there are any other posts in page one that I have not seen yet.

quote:

And the pattern that maybe I am seeing with you is that when you run into someone with firm and intact boundaries, you're not interested in that person. They seem cold and rigid to you so you move on. But the people you attach to and choose to trust are the people you can charm and wrap around your finger or manipulate a little. I'm not judging you for this because I can understand why you would have that strategy. Quite probably you feel like being adored and catered to and made an exception keeps you safe and gives you control.

hummm- interesting - I shall take this in to him BLT and ask him what he thinks.
amd this too

quote:

I used to believe that someone else stretching or breaking their own boundaries for me, or treating me as an exception, meant that person loved me. I can understand why I thought that, because my mom was constantly expecting me to break all of my boundaries for her to prove I cared about her. But really it doesn't mean that. It just means the person has poor enough judgment or little enough assertiveness or cares little enough about you or has enough unresolved issues of their own to risk damaging their relationship to you in the long term. I'm not saying your sweetP necessarily fits that mold, but it's something to be aware of.

It will be interesting to see what he says.

I have read the other posts too, I just suddenly have a mega amount of work coming in (t is why I suddenly go quiet for a bit, a work load that suddenly takes over and I am not here a lot) and it is hard to get to my computer.

Echoes:

quote:

what you have learnt is that if you crawl under the desk, he will let you touch him and that has now led to a hug , so you are now spending more and more time under the desk.now im sure you are frightened and hurt and every thing else.But i would challenge you to look at yourself and why you feel the need to crawl under there,

I shall take this quote too into my session. See what he says.

Morgs:

quote:

see a very destructive pattern repeating here and fear you might be the architect of more pain for yourself!

Yet another comment to take on Friday. I want to thank you all for your imput, it is important to get different perspectives on it. I am intrigued how the touch issue gets peoples juices going and we get some rather intense posts. I don't think my t would abuse me physically but I may wear him down from my sheer persistence of asking for a phone call once in between my weekly one hour forty session. I think I ask for far too much, but at least I know I don't email him or demand to see him twice a week. When I have asked him about this he says that I do not ask for too much, one fairly long session per week and one interim phone call he thinks is actually probably not enough but it is how much he can offer and he often says I am very good for accepting the limits of his care. He is very kind. The rigid T was narrow, tightly lipped, and I was right to leave her. She was full of her own issues which were leaking out in the sessions and I felt more and more uncomfortable.

As you know nothing is a clear cut as we like to read it on these boards. there are many threads weaving to make a tapestry. It would be great if it was so clear as:
"Rigid T had strong boundaries and you did not like her and so you do not like people with strong boundaries."

bit simplistic really.

But it is going to be SUCH an interesting session on Friday. I have to be careful as i about to go and do my India tour next week and so I don't want to cause a rift with him, I need to feel he is safely there for me.

It would be super if I could see a piece in me that I am missing, through all this discussion.

|oh and by the way, he doesn't cuddle me under the desk. He offers his hand and if I want it, I have to reach out and hold onto it. If I want a hug, I have to come right out. I go under the desk because I feel safe there. It is a very safe place. I went under things as a kid when I was in pain. It felt safe then. I am so grateful that he lets me do that - and I do come out when I feel a bit better.

My previous therapist who has kept in touch with me for the last 25 years, says that these are not boundary breaking issues, this is my T doing some adjustment of boundary crossing to meet the extremely tortured small child who has never truly been met and heard. (Interestingly rigid T said she would cuddle me anytime I liked and I could cuddle up in her lap if I wanted, she was happy to do the physical stuff, but I still did not like her coldness and stiffness.)

Last week my t said that he found it interesting that I now able to tell him stuff that I think will cause him to reject me and be disgusted by me, because I am feeling more safe with him and that the touch issue being met, seems to have calmed me down a lot. Like Yaku's t, he adjusted to me. He admits that he adjusted to help me. There are boundary invasions, breaks and crossings. Each T decides which is which for them.

Of course if it all goes wrong and he terminates on me for texting him too much or he jumps on me and attempts rape, like the last man, then we can all say : oh S, it was because you did this and this and this......

hindsight is a wonderful thing.

but I also worked with another man at the end of the eighties, early nineties and he cuddled me and hugged me and we talked a LOT about sex (but obviously only when I was in full adult mode and not being cuddled then!) , ( I was in my twenties at the time) and he only ever was honourable, boundaried, and at ease with me, I felt he was very much a father whom I grew to feel safe with.It was a shame that I had to move away to live in England with my fiance, now husband. He was good. He was a good respected T and well known in Britain. I miss him still. He just seemed to understand how broken the younger parts of me were.

quote:

I think I ask for far too much, but at least I know I don't email him or demand to see him twice a week.

I want to remind you that you can't ask for too much in therapy. But sometimes you can GET too much when you should have gotten a no.

quote:

"Rigid T had strong boundaries and you did not like her and so you do not like people with strong boundaries."
bit simplistic really.

Maybe, but I'm sure you could understand why we might get that impression. I searched the board trying to figure out where you ended with her and why, and didn't find any other info aside from what you said here.

quote:

But it is going to be SUCH an interesting session on Friday. I have to be careful as i about to go and do my India tour next week and so I don't want to cause a rift with him, I need to feel he is safely there for me.

OK, but I don't think any of this should cause a rift with him. These are the kind of questions he should be able to answer easily, you know?

quote:

and by the way, he doesn't cuddle me under the desk. He offers his hand and if I want it, I have to reach out and hold onto it. If I want a hug, I have to come right out.

OK, but that's not what it sounded like when you wrote this:

quote:

At one point, I am under his desk, where I feel safest and I shut down...

...and I make myself turn TOWARDS him and just grab his sleeve and hole in under his arm. He is by now on the floor beside me...then I realize that I am being HELD.

That didn't really ring alarm bells for me at the time because I didn't know anything about your history, but maybe it should have.

Anyway, haven't you said yourself that you were concerned about him only giving you hugs when you were being little and very distressed and that it was going to give you incentive to be like that more often? So the way he was handling the touch thing was already making you uneasy in a way.

quote:

Of course if it all goes wrong and he terminates on me for texting him too much or he jumps on me and attempts rape, like the last man, then we can all say : oh S, it was because you did this and this and this......

That is one thing nobody should EVER say, but since it hasn't happened yet, I think now is the appropriate time for us to talk about these concerns.

Sadly,
I am glad that you are planning on taking these concerns to your P. I would think if he is open to discuss these issues in a non-defensive manner (as you have indicated that he has been in the past) that would be a good sign that you are safe with him and he is paying attention to and adequately holding his boundaries. Being able to be open about these types of issues is such an important part of therapy, it's kind of what sets the relationship apart; that we can talk so directly about what is going on IN the relationship.

Echoes, I don't think the problem here is that Sadly is trying to manipulate her P. All of us unconsciously try to manipulate our T's in some way. I think the issue is whether she might be succeeding in it, when her P should have been wise to what was going on and not allowed it to continue, especially considering her past.

Sadly, have you considered that maybe you have been pushing your P so much partly because on some level, you are wanting him to be more firm with setting limits? And that you're partly happy when you get what you push for, but at the same time feel less safe and somewhat disappointed in him?

OK, weathering triggering stuff to be here as I feel I need to clarify some things.

While I view the touch in my therapy as a boundary crossing, I really don't feel as if I fundamentally changed my T, so I don't want that being used as any sort of example on "making" a T change. T and I have had to have dozens conversations over my fear that I am/have manipulated, taken advantage, changed him fundamentally, because of certain things he offers. However, even with touch, it was something he always offered to other clients, though in a different context (greeting/goodbye hugs); it was something he felt personally comfortable with. It was never something I got a "no" about. We had months of my journaling often and occasionally talking about those feelings of need and we focused on it without doing anything about it. When I finally asked directly, I received an explanation that his personal inclinations were to offer it, that he had a history of professional experience with it (both offering it and having a supervisor when he was an intern suggest not to), but that he would have to research and consult for a while before he could decide whether he thought it was appropriate, acceptable, beneficial in our work together. I guess, I'm feeling that this was a very careful undertaking on both our parts that spanned very many months and even when the answer was ultimately yes, there was no initiation on it until we had months of conversations about my feelings on having gotten a yes. I don't want it to be an example of having rewired him in anyway. It was a VERY cautious process on both our parts. I don't intend to talk about touch anymore (because it can become a conflict in S's threads, though I know that's not the intention), but I didn't want there to be any misconception there.

Second, I just wanted to say, dealing with real life kids, I am THANKFUL that although my T sets aside an amount of time that makes us able to work hard and then contain that if I keep going, he will gently direct me toward ending/containment. He wasn't as good at it in the beginning of our work together and it caused confusion. I tend to feel very unsafe when I think I am in control. I had YEARS of having to be the one to manage boundaries within my family, to take responsibility for the care of younger siblings and parents. I need someone else to do that, someone I can trust to be responsible.

I'll give an example from real life. Boo does not like going to bed. She will try to make the process of getting ready take forever. If she does well getting ready for bed, she gets books and songs. No matter what, she gets no more than three books and two songs. We have a routine. She goes potty, gets on PJs, brushes her teeth, helps feed the cats, and if she does all those things cooperatively without delaying, gets her books and songs and then snuggles and prayers and goes to bed. When she tries to get more books or songs, we tell her no. When she gets up from bed, we put her back to bed. If she asks for something small (like a refill on her water cup, or a quick tickle), I will do so ONCE. Obviously, if she wakes up from a nightmare screaming or needs to go potty in the middle of the night, of course I will help her with that. But, as she's falling asleep, she will call out for various things to try to interact, to extend her awake time. Some things might be real needs, things I forgot to attend to, things that are important. Sometimes, she is just being a kid and trying to manipulate her way into staying up late. But, her mommy and daddy have to say no, that it's time to bed, not time to talk, not time to get up, not time to play, that there will be plenty of time for snuggles and play and talking tomorrow. If we don't do that, a more important need will get overlooked. She won't sleep enough, she will get worn out, she will have behavior issues the next day, or else get sick. As her mom, I need to set a firm boundary that once I have done her bedtime routine and put her to bed, it is time to lay down and stay there until she can fall asleep. Daddy is better with this boundary than I am and consequently, she goes to sleep easier with him. I am not bad at it, but she does have an easier time manipulating me.

It's normal for kids (external or internal) to try to manipulate. And it's normal for good parents to show the kids that they can't, that the parent will act in favor of the child's needs over the child's wants. Boo stays in her own bed all night and gets a full night's sleep, because we have taught her that there is a time we stop interacting, put our toys away, get some rest, so we can have energy to play again tomorrow. That is what T does for me. He does it very gently. He is more like I am with Boo than my H is. But, he still does it. It doesn't sound like sweetP is doing this very well. He is basically teaching your internal kid that SHE is in control. And the reason that you are feeling a bit of trepidation about that is that when SHE had control in the past, it was not good for her. She is little and doesn't know what's best for her and her being in control allowed others to behave badly toward her (I did not know the details with your previous therapist until now). So, the amount of control that she has assumed in your current therapy is bound to feel scary, because it has resulted disasterously in the past. I'm not saying it will now, but sweetP isn't managing his own boundaries in a way that can give her confidence that he is going to stay safe in that way.

I am focusing on the time issue here. There are ways a T can still end things gently, yet firmly. My T errors a little bit more toward the gentle side, but he basically makes me take a rest from the work when it is time. He explains that we will talk about this stuff again and again, but it's time to put it away and have some rest. He's not perfect. Like me with Boo, his boundaries are a little looser with his clients than a very strict parent's would be. But, he takes seriously his job to make sure I don't wear myself out, become non-functional, get sick(er) from indulging my unwillingness to put my toys away and go to bed. It's HIS responsibility with me, like it's my responsibility with Boo. It's sweetP's responsibility too, to decide exactly how much time he has set aside for you and stick to it, even if the kids are complaining that they need this toy or that toy or one more snuggle or one more story before they go to sleep. He needs to say, "No, 8pm is your bedtime and we can have more stories next time." Even my very gentle, broad-boundaried T does this consistently (obviously, excepting safety issues, which I can't remember recently at all).

quote:

I searched the board trying to figure out where you ended with her and why, and didn't find any other info aside from what you said here.

No - you won't find it here. She said something about me - on my third session with her that I reported to my present T, my EMDR T, my husband, and my Very good ex T of 25 years ago. They all said RUN! I left her. I did not post it here as it is TOO MUCH INFORMATION. But boy, was that a very very bad sign indeed.

It is the presumptions here that I worry about. it feels a bit like people lurk with their own judgements and then pounce when I ask about my t running my sessions so long. I don't mind you pouncing, it is an open forum.

Me and T have addressed some of these issues a few times. He knows I am terrified of being too much, (like many of us here) because I was too much as I grew up. My parents had mega problems but then there was me, this seriously ill baby and toddler, in and out of hospital with major grafting and skin work, in terrible nerve damage pain and in a time before parents were allowed to stay with their kids. I was not touched at all for long periods of time when the burns were settling and the grafts were taking. I was not in a family where touch was considered normal, though I was hit and I spent a lot of time hiding under things when I hurt and cried, incase I caused a problem.
All of this, I have been in serious denial of all my life, and only in the last year have I begun to see how this has caused some of the difficulties I have. The nerve damage it still bad, it is physical, it is real, and it is also triggered by emotions and anxiety, darn it. when it is triggered I mewl. I scrabble to get under things to some safety and I cannot visually see. It is real trauma triggering with very real physical pain. My scars go purple red in blotches and I have trained myself to reach out, to my husband, if he is there, to a friend if they are there, and now - sometimes to my T. He lets me cling to his sleeve, he murmurs that it will pass (and he is right, it DOES pass) and he allows the physical shakes to subside. I think this is why he runs over, because if that happens in a session, and it is happening a lot as we talk and uncover my feelings from that time, - then he needs to get me back to normal enough to walk out of there. Once or twice I have not been okay and we have had to call on my husband to come.

So he says the time issue is mainly one of him making sure I am safe and each trauma when triggered is so huge. We once did a session where we talked about my singing and music stuff and I was fine and left 'on time'. I liked that but I realize I can't do that all time, that would negate the reason for being in therapy. I would be ignoring the stuff that brought me there.

T says also that I am terrified of not only being too much, (it is harrowing apparently for someone to be in the same room when I am going through the worst of it, the body memories so strong still) but that I expect him to be like the terminating counsellor and the abusive T from 17 years ago. He EXPECTS me to feel uncomfortable as he is kind and gentle to me and that my panic, fear and worries are to be EXPECTED as I am expecting what happened before - to happen again. I really do. Sometimes I tell him - "it is not IF, it is WHEN." He says he has no intention of hurting me in anyway. He has a contract with me of at least seeing me until the end of the year and then we have a review and he indicates in that review his guidance would be that I continue. so he is NOT going to terminate with me, though I keep expecting he will. and he says it is quite normal for me to be frightened that he might attempt to rape me, because although I actually know he won't - he is just far too steady and solid and professional for that - I had that happen before, so he lets me sit next to the alarm bell just in case. So yes, I worry a lot and I tell him my worries a lot. He is really glad I tell him. And he keeps reassuring me that my fears are normal for what I have been through.

It is funny posting here as I was amazed someone brought up the 'being naked' stuff from one of my threads to 'prove' I push boundaries. Out of context about a therapy relationship of 17 years ago, it does not feel that relevant here, but of course to some people reading it, it would. I hve talked to T about that incident and he said, " you desperately needed to feel safe naked. you were burnt, when naked, you were not touched whilst the burns were treated, for months nad then years, you were abused as a child naked, you have a GREAT need to feel safe naked. It is perfectly understandable to bring that to therapy. Unfortunately your T back then, decades ago, had a sex addiction and could not wait to see you naked and so let you. Then abused you. It does not mean that your voicing your feeling that you woudl like once in your life to be naked and be safe, like a baby feels, was wrong. It was actually an understandable and appropriate feeling."

He also said last session : it reminds me of when a baby is really small, like with your kids and like when mine were little, they just need the parents to let them take over for a while, the babies needs are paramount and the adults around need to drop everything in order to go with the flow of the babies needs. It sometimes feels like that with you, the needs are from such a young age, the majority of babies who would have been burnt to extensively woudl not have survived and there is still a baby in torment and isolation and howling who needs me to drop everything and be there. I know this. It is how it is. And yet we also have the adult there too, who is careful to not demand too much, careful to explain, thoughtful of my own limitations and yet the baby keeps howling. That baby is the work we are doing now. And that baby seems to understand touch, soft voice tone and needing to feel safe.

AGain I think that is why we keep running over more just now, as I seem to take ages adjusting back. I feel quite unsteady on my feet sometimes and so I go and sit in the cafe next door for a long while, sometimes an hour, before I try to drive home.

I will bring up the time issue when I see him. Though he will say all the above all over again and that he thinks two hours a week is barely adequate.

Hi Sadly,

Was just reflecting....

I am thinking about the wording of comforting touch that you talk about. To me an occasional hug in sessions is fine if you and your T feel comfortable with that; but you talk of cuddling as well as a hug and I wonder if the two are different? To me cuddling has more intimacy attached and I would have to say I would be wary of any male therapist cuddling me, it would be too triggering and uncomfortable and for me one step over the boundary line.

I wondered also about you going under the desk and whether it just reinforces that old need for safety and stops you moving on? My T would be looking at getting me to see that things are different now, that I am safe in that room with her and have no need to keep hiding and try and encourage me to change that behaviour if I could. If not it might serve to reinforce the parent/child relationship rather than foster an adult/adult relationship in therapy.

Just some thoughts,

starfishy

Previous t - sent me a message to chip in:

quote:

He is not breaking his boundaries. he weighs things up and re-evaluates. that is not the same as being manipulated. He adjusts after much reflection and keeps your best interests in mind. He is utterly professional and it woudl be out of character for him to be swayed wrongly or for the wrong reasons. He sees you gallantly struggle and hardly expect support. when I worked with you, it took you six months to even admit you needed a hug. I had been ready to hug you from the start. I knew how much it meant to you. I saw the benefits and I am glad that deep intrinsic 'burnt baby' need is being adddressed and talked about.

Starfish, thanks for the comment. the words and what is happening is probably different from what the words seem to say.

Cuddles: Twice now I have hit HORRIBLE physical pain when trying to remember about the burn and hospital stuff when I was little. EAch time I lose vision. It goes black. And I arch back and my legs kick out, the pain intensifies and I start to shudder and mewl with pain and it escalates into heart rending cries. I have heard the recording - it is indeed heart rending. It doesn't last that long. It feels to me like it lasts about six minutes but the first one was actually thirty seconds. but in that 30 seconds I narrowly miss the desk leg (lagged thank god) and end up head diving into a small table. T put himself in teh way and I ended up with my head under his arm, (I think, I couldn't see) and he just held me until my body juddered and stopped convulsing and my breathing came back properly. It meant his hand was on my back and my head was either on the floor or on his arm I think, and he was just saying soothing things. I eventually took a huge breath in and out and my whole body went limp. That last bit was about 20 seconds but to me in it, it seemed more like two minutes. I know how long cos when I listen to the recording I can time it. I am always astonished how fast it is in real time but in my state, it seems a very long time.

I was so glad he kept me safe. I am so glad he does not freak out as I find it terrifying.

He lets me go under the desk, because usually I can hang on in there and remember without my body going into too much pain. If I stay out, I fall into the pain much faster. I don't know why. So often I try NOT to go under the desk and we have found that I just go into the terror etc too fast and cannot process. Being under the desk gives some buffering somehow. It seems to work. It is such a small space, that it doesn't really fit me even. I wish I did not go under there really, but it seems something that is just helpful right now.

Another T just wrote to me:

quote:

if you love someone in a meaningful way, it must be relevant to them. if you are 50 and have a screaming toddler inside you that needs holding, then to love you meaningfully will envolve relating to both aspects of you.

she has good success with turning people who have experienced awful trauma - into well functioning adults.

He puts his hand out to me too, and if I want to, I find my fingers curl around one of his. That grounds me and I can become more verbal again.

I discussed this with one of my colleagues and she said that the extent of my traumas are extreme and have locked in some very real body memories and also complicated by nerve damage which flares more intensely when upset or frightened. So I go into real physical pain - like being burnt all over again. Quite horrible. I could be doped up to have that not happen but I woudl have to have very strong anti convulsive drugs twice a day to stop this very sporadic pain. I don't want to be doped up. I would prefer to suffer the pain very occasionally than be doped up 24/7 365.

My colleague says that few therapists meet or work with someone with such multiple traumas and so people 'listening in' to what I write about a session will not actually have an accurate picture of what is going on, as they are hearing my bits - (he held me! I felt held! He is so kind!) but they won't know that I was in terrible physical pain from 15 minutes in and had to have my husband come and drive me home. It is not just like I sit and chat. I go in there shaking. It is far worse than surgery without anaesthetic somedays. I sometimes think I cannot go through this anymore, but each time I come to the end of a session, I have learnt so much more about myself, I have flashing intense images in my head, I can smell smells that must be from back then, I feel a feeling which makes me understand WHY I feel like that in the present. It is like pieces of the jigsaw coming together. I am stunned by how much I have been carrying and trying to deny all my life. I have 'known' about these traumas, I could even talk about them if pushed, but I denied utterly that I had any FEELINGS about them.

quote:

It is not just like I sit and chat. I go in there shaking. It is far worse than surgery without anaesthetic somedays. I sometimes think I cannot go through this anymore, but each time I come to the end of a session, I have learnt so much more about myself, I have flashing intense images in my head, I can smell smells that must be from back then, I feel a feeling which makes me understand WHY I feel like that in the present. It is like pieces of the jigsaw coming together. I am stunned by how much I have been carrying and trying to deny all my life. I have 'known' about these traumas, I could even talk about them if pushed, but I denied utterly that I had any FEELINGS about them.

I can guarantee that people here, though only getting bits and parts of the story do understand EXACTLY what you are taLking about because they are survivors too - of multiple trauma, or horrid pain, of flashbacks, somization, aches, pains. I'm sure people could tell you absolutely fantastic and horrific stories too. Some of the people giving wise words in this thread give them not because they don't understand but because they do. And they worry. I'm not trying to minimize your 6 month old burning pain here but letting you know you're among survivors of equal magnitude and trauma - they get it and that's why I think they are even more cautious and concerned. Hope your Friday session goes gently.

...thanks ((cat)), unfortunately Sadly some of us know only too well what you are going through. That's why we understand that awful depth of pain and want to share our concerns because we care about you and everbody reading here.

this stuff is WAY out of my league, but my small 2 cents is this: the original post is about time boundaries. if they are important enough for you to voice a concern here, then that is HUGE and something that you need to listen to. seriously listen to. if it bothers you, then it is a concern and something you need to talk about with your T. or ... leave, and find someone who will listen to you. my concern here is you are unconciencly (sp?) trying to pull one over on everyone else at the expense of yourself. sadly, i'm sorry ... you seem so insightful on one level, and so deluded on another. but of course, we're not in the therapy room with you, so i do cut you some slack. i wish you nothing but the best. i hope you can come to some resolution. my best to you.

quote:

and so deluded on another.

thanks CD

sorry, hon. we're all rooting for you.

I'm going to take in quite a few of the posts here - typed out - and hand them over to him and see what he says.

that is about the only way to handle it.

(((((SADLY)))))

He is not deluded. I read in Judith Herman's Trauma and Recovery that decisions should be made on what will foster the best working relationship with the client and not on whether or not the T should indulge the client.

I'm not 100% sure of this but it seems to me that this is the best psychotherapeutic relationship you have ever had. Would you agree? He has managed to build a relationship with you and it seems as though you really feel safe with him and trust him.

Maybe you needed the "boundary crossings". There's nothing wrong with talking to him about it if you are feeling unsure now. It can only help to further the intimacy between the two of you.

Hang in there. I've noticed so many positive changes in you recently. Keep slogging.

Liese

Oh Liese, thank you SOOOO much. I have never before experienced a t who is so thoughtful and so steady, who is twenty steps ahead of me ( a wonderful if sometimes disconcerting feeling) and because of my woork with him,I am actually beginning to feel like I am truly alive, I wake up some mornings these days with anticipation of the day ahead, the work I am doing, the people I will meet and notice that hey - I am happy to be alive. I am actually ENJOYING life. Yes, I feel pain, but hey, I also feel happy and even joy and, wow, this is good.
He said two weeks ago "one day you will leave here and not need to see me anymore and I will have served my purpose and that will happen." and he was smiling at me. It gave me hope.

SADLY,

quote:

because of my woork with him,I am actually beginning to feel like I am truly alive, I wake up some mornings these days with anticipation of the day ahead, the work I am doing, the people I will meet and notice that hey - I am happy to be alive. I am actually ENJOYING life. Yes, I feel pain, but hey, I also feel happy and even joy and, wow, this is good.

That's what it's all about.

Liese

Sadly, it sounds like you are surrounded by a lot of really good supportive people. i hope that's true. i hope what i said about you being deluded is false. i'm beginning to feel like it is. i imagine you feel pretty shoved into the corner, but i think you can understand that the people here are all over this thread because they care about you and want you to heal and be happy. i think you said your next session is tomorrow? i'm just dropping a line to let you know i'm thinking about you and hope you and your T make some really good, healing progress. take care!

Good luck with tomorrow's (today's) session, Sadly! I think the most important thing about these complex boundary issues is being able to talk about them openly. As you know, my T's boundaries are very wide and that can cause me a lot of triggering inside, but the fact that we are able to discuss the framework/relationship so openly allows me to feel safe connecting, which I never have before. You seem to have a similar experience with sweetP. I just really hope that if the scheduling stuff is bothering you and causing problems that he will hear it and address it. Good thoughts for your session!!!

It could totally back fire on me and he says
"Okay, I initially said one hour 15 mins, once a week, - I said that 16 months ago and now I am going to enforce it."



I would have shot myself in the foot.



but I know sweetP- he will be twenty steps ahead on this. So it is intriguing what he will say.

I re connected last night to how kind he is, in a 'kind safe daddy' sort of way. I feel that. I lost it with all the hoo hah about that 'friend' doing the 'terminating counsellor' email and then I just lost all sense of sweetP's kindness and care for me as I got post after post saying he wasn't boundaried enough etc - I think I felt swamped by negativity towards him. It was hard. I now just feel my usual self - and will go and talk to him about the issues that have come up.
report back later and thanks Liese, CD and Yaku for these kind posts.

It was a beautiful day here so we went for a long walk, me and P!

:yahoo:

It was lovely. Truly lovely.

We walked through the park and up through woods and then up along the tops and to a monument and then climbed it and talked a lot whilst looking down at the town in the valley below, with the sun shining. Most of the session, walking, was about my friend and her strange email to me and how I felt and what to do about it etc as it effects my work, my local village life as well as my immediate circle of friends.
then we walked back and I borrowed some money off him to buy a can of coke and we sat in the park and I drank my coke and we talked about the boundary stuff that had been cropping up. Sitting in the sunshine with the ducks quacking in the large duck pond in front of us and children squealing with joy on the climbing frames to our right, on a secluded bench beneath a tree. At that point I took out my recording device and this is what was said:

quote:

He reads various posts from the thread here.
Him: The therapy will end in an hour and a half unless we have specifically negotiated otherwise. Or does that feel too rigid? I do try to be reasonable. I am likely to err on the side of not stopping you if there is something intense going on. You already know how to put something away again to look at next time, you are able to steer yourself like that. You have the capacity to steer between under of emotion and over of emotion. I have a feeling that what they are saying in their posts is right, that I have erring on the side of letting things go n and sometimes that is helpful and sometimes it is unhelpful. I have erred, time wise, on the side of letting things go on, sessions be extended and sometimes that creates a problem. That has been my responsibility and sometimes I have not been taking care of that enough for you. I apologise for that. My answer is that we should have a standardised 1 hour 30 minutes but we both take responsibility for saying if we need it to be different so that if you have a train to catch, or I have to be in my car by 2pm. We say that at the beginning and negotiate on that. Or sometimes at the end of the session, you might want to say, “ I have had enough for today, I am worn out” that is okay. You can always say. If I am worried that there is not enough time left for what we are getting into, I need to say that to you. It feels like it might be quite difficult for you as you feel like you are being sent away. I am not sure how to get round that. I try to factor in leeway, so that if we do over run I have not got a client waiting. I am very glad you mentioned it as it is one of my weak points, I do tend to run over for clients. But if we both keep in mind the actual agreed time of the session and you have been kind enough to create a watch alarm, then it is something I can improve upon.

ME: The whole issue of you hugging me, I am so frightened of asking you about that. I am frightened you are going to say that you are not comfortable with that. I don't want to make you do anything that you don't want. If you don't feel comfortable with that, then please don't. I am so tired of people interpreting it in different ways. I don't understand why it is so important to me.

Him: In principle, touch is a risky thing, touch and hugs. My response to that at the moment, is just to say that we continue to keep doing what we do: we have a short hug at the end of a session. It is part of a closing thing that we do.

ME: why is it so important for me, why does it matter to me so much?

Him: we could try to work on that. This matters to you so much not because it is wrong, it is because it is powerful. It is strong for you, it is not pathological. There is a bit of it that some people feel that it may not be quite right or that it is dangerous. It is strong and important for you that you want that. I am happy with that. There is evidence that actually this is a contained thing, that you can and are able to make judgements about who it is okay with and when it is okay. If you are okay with the idea that it is okay with me, because I have said it is then that seems to suggest that one way of seeing it is a way of meeting a part of you that needs meeting and needs that hug.

Me: You are okay with it. I don't pick up that you are NOT okay with it. I think it is because you have kids, you know what a child feels like when hurting, it is natural to give a hug.

Him: I think what it might be helpful to talk about is the sense of what it stands for, and I think you know already what it stands for: it stands for being held. Because when you are little, being held is the ultimate safety, isn't it. Being held and protected - it makes sense that it would connect with something very simple and very big for the burnt baby and hospitalised child that is in you. If you look at that photograph of your daughter again, think about how you were like that. [He points to the photo I brought in of my daughter ages six months old, full of life) – see you held your daughter and she needed that.

I think we are doing something that makes sense and we are both capable of keeping safe and 'contained', (if that is the right word,) and that is okay. That is how I would see it, I think. It is true, that you have stretched my limits a bit, and I have tried to respond to that, sometimes in a limited way and sometimes more, sometimes less. I did this because I felt it was what was needed and in the end I felt that it was right to go with what was needed rather than what might be usual. Sometimes that is a decision that we take as therapists.

If you have something that is available, its probably true that it can't meet everybody's needs, but if it is a question of the the steps being too high for some people to access what is available, is it wrong if you adjust the steps to make it more manageable for them? If you are doing therapy effectively, for someone who cannot handle it as it is (the steps are too high), you try to find a way that they can handle therapy. For me it became an issue, because there came a point where it felt you were not able to work with me anymore because of it. It seemed reasonable. It would have seemed a shame if you ended therapy because you could not handle not having a hug anymore . This is a really big important thing for you. It is not about you getting me to do what you want. It is about a very real need that you have, in order for something to feel real.
For you it is about the importance of the tactile. The tactile is actually the biggest part of communication when you are that little (points again to photo of my daughter when she was a baby) and maybe the therapy for you is going to have a little bit of tactile in it for the tiniest baby part of you to feel there is something that she is connecting with and feeling okay enough to be in the room. That is the conclusion I have come to which is why I tell myself that it is okay. And I think that is a reasonable position. I am glad, S, that you brought it up, it is important and you were right to bring it up. And we can both keep looking at it and do say any time if you want to talk about either of these again. I think they are something we can both check in with now and again so that you feel comfortable, able to speak and also safe. It is inportant. We can keep working on it if it is something either of us feels we need to do.

Me: I seem to feel able to trust you and feel safe with you as 'the norm' like I did with my first counsellor, and that feels new to me.

I have sort of shot myself in the foot by talking about the time issue as my standard one hour 45 minute sessions have been reduced now to one hour and thirty. I think of all the people i know who have an hour session twice a week and wonder WHY people think I am pushing boundaries to regret losing some of my precious time with him. It is the only time I have with him for seven days. By bringing this topic up I have lost fifteen minutes each week minimum and even sometimes 45 minutes. I really feel I shot myself in the foot here.

Have been reading here a long time and learnt some valuable things that have helped me understand my own journey, but have also noticed some things that have put me off joining in. This is a prime example and even though I don't 'know' you Sadly - or anyone else here - I have joined today to say this as I feel it needs to be said out loud. Apologies if it is unwelcome.

Sadly your T has been doing nothing wrong other than extending himself to meet you where you need to be met. Yes I think you may be a little manipulative and may indeed be a powerful manipulator when operating from your baby-you-place, but this is normal and this is what we do when desperate for safety and care. He has responded, not blindly or foolishly, but carefully and with love. He goes over the prescribed time, but so what? He dares offer you (a previously abused client) physical contact? Lucky you. I'm sure he has his boundaries within this area of looser boundaries. Stop fretting and developing 'red flag' paranoia. You are engaging with a loving and open-minded therapist who is strong enough to leave the prescribed path at times. What a blessing! I have one of those also and we have been at it a few years now and I have shifted and grown through his care and courage.

But now you have lost precious weekly time via too much attention to the over-baked concern of others. Not their fault directly of course as it was your choice to act upon their concerns, but you have been led to a place of concern you didn't need to go to and it is sad to read. I have seen this happen often enough here and this is why I have resisted the very strong urge to join the community and share.

When people aren't getting what they need/want and see others getting it, a very normal human reaction kicks in and though it may be presented in sophisticated words, it still spells the same thing. In this thread I have sensed an thinly-veiled eagerness in others to see him stumble and declare him unsafe. Others want hugs or more time or more flexibility or more 'something', but the majority of Ts will not bend their ways. It hurts and sometimes rouses deep-seated anger and jealousy in the wounded parts of wounded people.

Blessings to you Sadly...maybe you can regain that precious lost time with sweetP by declaring this boundary unnecessary!

Babs