HB... thank you for your thoughtful and kind response. I just don't know how to be kind to myself. I never learned how and I feel I don't deserve it. That this is somehow my fault for feeling so weak and needy and I should be on better guard to prevent these feelings from cropping up.

I'm sort of feeling paralyzed about the whole thing. This happens when I'm terrified of something. I have no idea of which direction to move... True North? My T is my true north. He is my fixed point in a spinning world. When he's gone I'm spinning out of control.

I'm so afraid to trust that he will keep his word because if he does not I don't think we will survive it and I'm afraid to test it. History is screaming at me ... don't believe him, he's just trying to placate you.

And if I was truly generous I would not begrudge him a vacation.

Lastly, I don't feel I can share any of these feelings with him because he will just get annoyed and feel that I'm being so annoying and ungrateful and that it's better to be rid of me totally. That he will ask "what more do you want out of me?" At this point I don't think I'll be able to say anything to him in our next session before his vacation. I'm so angry right now I don't want to talk to him.

TN

Hi TN. I hear how awful you feel right now and I feel for you. ((((((((TN)))))))) All the feelings that are coming up as a result of this seem overwhelming and I'm glad that you've come here to vent/get support. We are listnening and, as HB pointed out, while you may judge your feelings and yourself, we do not.

quote:

So part of me is terrified I can't do this. Another part of me is so horribly angry with him that I want to punch the walls down. Yet another part of me acknowledges I am nobody and I deserve to be abandoned during the holidays. Lastly I am angry with myself that I have allowed someone to get so close to me again and that I am so stupid for letting my guard down and becoming so attached to someone

What struck me about your above comment is how nearly this situation most likely mimics something you've felt before.... something that, as a child, may very well have been life or death. The intensity with which you blame yourself is stringent, and it is a feeling I know too well. For those of us who have been betrayed by those we HAD to depend on, it certainly is easier to think that we are at fault, that there is something wrong with us, then it is to trust that we deserve what everyone else deserves and that our cargivers can fail miserably. Like HB said, what would you do if your child was as upset as you are? You might try working through that scenario, as if your child was saying the things you wrote. Even if you can't be nice to yourself, or comfort yourself at all, it might be worth telling yourself that even though you don't feel it, the truth is that you deserve the same love, compassion and nurturance your child does. Maybe ask yourself WHY you don't deserve it. What is it about YOU that makes you unworthy? The truth is that you are very much so worthy and deserving, but I think you'll have to work through the shittiness of why you feel unworthy before you can get past this.

In situations like these, I often tell myself that I am unworthy because, if I were deserving of comfort and love- if I didn't deserve to be abandoned- then I woulf have been cared for properly the first time around. As if there is some direct connection that exists between what I received as a child and the way I should have been parented. But in reality, it's like saying "well, because my parents didn't give me water as a child, I don't deserve to drink water." Everyone needs security and love and comfort just as everyone needs water! You deserve to be abandoned during the holidays just as much I deserved to be left crying in my crib for hours! As my t says- and trust me, I'm paraphrasing, just because what has happened to us was f***ed up, it doesn't me that we deserved it.

quote:

I also feel guilty about having all of the above feelings. After all, the guy is just going on vacation right? The world is full of much more serious problems and I'm just a whiney child.

Yes, he is just going on vacation. But vacations mean that people leave for a while. And when that's our t's, it feels like they are rejecting us and abandoning us and it stirs up all those awful feelings in us that remind us of what it felt like to be abandoned and hurt before. I'm sure your t fully expects you to react to his leaving. I mean, how could you not? Would you really want to be in relationship with a t who it didn't matter to you if he was leaving for a while? When my t tells me she'll be out, (and we go through this everytime) I tell her "no thank you" and that I'd prefer she'd stay. She then says that she'll be back and that it will be okay, we'll make it. I then tell her that I'd like to go with her... that I'll be good and quiet and won't ask "are we there yet?" She says she's not worried about how I'd behave and that she wishes that she could give me what I wanted. And always, on the session before she leaves, as I walk out the door, I say "you're coming back, right? cuz I really want you to" and she says "yep, I sure am." And then I call and leave her messages while she's gone and when she gets back, the first thing I say is "thanks for coming home, I appreciate it!" and she simply says "sure!" Now there are a lot more feelings involved, and it is hard and scary, but IMO, it's a part of the therapy. If we don't learn that it is okay to be left and that our t's will come back, I don't know how else we can work through the attachment issues. Now your t dropped the ball when he didn't call, but he DID come back. You've been able to work through things with him, and it has been hard and trecherous, but even you said that you've been doing good work lately. What if you tell him how scared/upset you are, he leaves, he comes back, and you can feel even safer and move even closer to him? How much more will you be able to trust him after he keeps his word and comes back?

Well, I'm sure I've blabbered long enough. I hope I'm making sense and that you at least can think about WHY you think you deserve to be left instead of focusing on deserving to be left in general. I think you'll be hard pressed to come up with legitimate answers because you don't really deserved to be left at all... but I think you have to come to that conclusion no matter how many times we say it (i'm tempted to copy and paste it a thousand times, but i shall refrain... for now)

I'm thinking of you TN and I truly hope that you and your t can use this experience to deepen your relationship.

-CT

TN:

I’ve read many posts on this site, but this is the first time I’ve felt compelled to respond because I can hear your suffering. I know your pain all too well and how devastating it can feel to be dependent on your T. I know how you feel . . . I’ve been there. If I can feel your pain by reading your post, just think how your T feels when you’re talking face to face. It took me a long time to completely trust my T, but it was the best thing I ever did. You have to tell them everything. Its fine if you have to test them first, but you have to keep talking about your thoughts and feelings. It’s so true that we cannot truly love someone else until we learn to love ourselves, and it can be very challenging to learn if we’ve been beating ourselves up for years. Six months ago I would have told you that loving my T felt very painful. Ask me today and I would tell you that it’s the greatest feeling in the world.

D

TN, I feel a lot for you in this. Other people have responded so beautifully - I just want to say yeah, your reaction is not an over-reaction, it's a function of the intensity and importance of the work you are doing in therapy. I'd say you feel this because you are getting down to the nitty-gritty of healing the deep wounds in your life. And I'm guessing one of the reasons you're doing that is that you don't want to pass that pain on to your child or anyone else. This is not trivial, it's some of the most important work in the world. What you learn in your healing will be available not only to you and your son, but to others you come into contact with. The world needs this work.

Take care of yourself.

Hi TN and sending you big hugs. I feel the same panic as you at the moment. Over the Christmas break I am unsure if my P is going to be working or not and then we are going away for two weeks so I won't see him for nearly a month - possibly.

Is it possible that you could check in with a text to him every day? Could you ask him if that would be ok and that would be a link between you, no need for him to reply but just a quick text from you maybe you would still feel his presence and keep the connection strong?

Thank you all for the amazing support and encouragement and kind words.

Halo... I'm so sorry you are facing and even longer absence from your P and I can truly sympathize. I'm sure my T would have no problem with me either texting him or emailing him (especially now since he has a new iphone LOL) and he has offered to call me to check in or even have a phone session while he's gone. I'm skittish about the phone call appointment because of what happened last summer when he promised to call and then didn't. It was pretty devastating to me.

Jones.. you are exactly right... we are getting down to some nitty gritty work of looking at past trauma and dealing with my grief. And much of what I am doing is learning not to pass this all down to my son and to be sure he has the best mother I can be. I don't want him to have an insecure attachment or a mother who cannot meet his needs and is not present. The most progress I have made over the past 2 years has been my parenting skills. My T has been a wonderful help with that.

Dharma... thank you for coming out to respond to my post. I really appreciate your support. And you are right we have to keep telling them our feelings and I had promised myself I would not shut him out any more but sometimes it's so hard to let him get so close to me. And I have tested him 7 ways till Sunday and he has almost always passed the test. We have had some disruptions and I understand that's because we are both human. I don't expect him to be perfect. I'm glad you are in such a good place with your loving feelings for your T. I hope to get there one day soon.

HB... thank you again. I took your advice and told him I was scared. I told him a lot of things.

CT... thanks for coming out of lurkdom again to talk to me and make me see some sense in all of this. You T sounds wonderful and as if she really gets this... how her leaving makes you feel and she's so okay with it. And yes, I need to look at why I feel I deserve to be abandoned... maybe because I was and if your parents abandon you then why not everyone else. And my parents did not physically abandon me... just emotionally. I need to look at this more with my T.

So for an update... I saw my T tonight with my son. It was his appointment but because I was so upset I took most of the time. My son was fine with it and did his homework while waiting. My T knew how upset I was and he was ready for me LOL. It took a bit of dragging it out of me but I finally told him everything of how I was feeling and what happened yesterday when he told me over the phone about his plans to leave. I told him how I was angry at myself for allowing his vacation to matter to me, for allowing him to get so close to me... that I don't want anyone so close. That I was feeling rejected and abandoned and afraid he was not coming back. And mostly that I hated HATED telling him all of this.

He was nothing but kind and understanding and willing to make things better for me in any way he could. He wanted my suggestions and he really listened to how I felt. Things are so much better now. I see that he cares and that he wants to help me to survive his vacations until that time when it will be easier for me to let him go ... knowing that he will come back and all will be fine.

So thank you everyone for being there for me.

TN

Hi, it's me, Luna again. After losing my T a year ago after seeing her for 10 years, my present T told me she is giving up her practice for health reasons. I had one more session- a double and she is gone. I can relate to those who say they are angry with themselves for allowing themselves to become attached to another person. Yep, I let it happen again! I still miss my formerT, too. Pain, Pain. What can I do?

NewP is going to be away for two weeks starting on Christmas Eve. He is going to leave details for my GP re medication for while he is away. I am still panicking, mostly about how to cope with anxiety while he is gone.

Halo I understand your concerns because I suffer with anxiety too and I didn't handle my Ts last vacation too well. I can tell you that having this board as an outlet was enormous help along with a very good friend who allowed me to cry on her shoulder. I also journaled every day he was gone about my feelings and what I did that day to try to survive his absence. It's not easy but you can do it. Just keep talking to us.

TN

Hi Summer and Hummingbird...You are very wise. I am thinking long and hard about forming another theraputic relationship. My first one of 10 years was one with pretty strict boundries. In spite of that, I had attachment issues..I would have continued with (MA)forever if she had not retired. She did give me 6 months notice.It is not as painful after 15 months. None-the -less I have the occasional yearning for the past. I know she keeps boundries for my own good.
My recent T, (C) was nothing like MA.She used all kinds of new methods for relief of and insight into problems. She, however, kind of blurred the boundries and sucker me,I lapped it up. We will occasionally run into each other, as we actually belong to a couple of organizations where our paths will cross. She will allow short infrequent e-mails with my progress with an organizer she recommended for my hoarding tendencies. I do not know if this is a help, or whether cold turkey is better in the long run.
I am looking for a new T, but, as you warned, I will really think it through before choosing..Thanks for your concern. Luna

TN,

About 4 months into my therapy, when I was basically in a state of feeling like I was just about to lose my mind and die every second of every day, my T forgot to tell me he was going away for three weeks. I found this out on the Friday before. He thought he had told me. He hadn't.

I was horrified and beyond enraged, and felt like what little protection I had against whatever was happening to me had just been torn away from me. I felt TOTALLY exposed to this un-nameable, invisible thing that was tormenting me, and now this bastard tells me he's leaving for nearly a month and forgot to tell me. I wanted him to f-off then eat sh$t and die...I mean after I was done screaming at him.
It was truly awful and I still hate it when we have breaks.

Well, I handled it as best I could. I spent time with my best friend and found comfort in very simple but important things, like this board, like listening to the Wise Counsel and Shrink Rap Radio podcasts, like sleeping on my sofa instead of my bedroom (for some reason, I found this comforting). I read poetry. Do whatever you need to do to get through it. That's all that matters.

I think being furious with your T is a lot better than being furious with yourself. Think of it as a kind of infantile rage...the kind of rage a child has when she doesn't get what she wants and needs. Remember, the part of you that is responding to this is timeless. It doesn't give a damn that you've been an adult, chronologically, for however long that's been. If your anger is coming from something that happened when you were two, well it might as well have happened 5 minutes ago. Emotional memory doesn't care what the date is.

quote:

Yet another part of me acknowledges I am nobody and I deserve to be abandoned during the holidays.

Think about where you got this message, and aim some of that anger at whoever taught you this lie.

I can't see my T for a week, and I'm spending FOUR DAYS with my family this weekend. So if you're struggling during your break, keep posting here. It helps. A lot.

Hang in there.

Russ

quote:

I think being furious with your T is a lot better than being furious with yourself. Think of it as a kind of infantile rage...the kind of rage a child has when she doesn't get what she wants and needs. Remember, the part of you that is responding to this is timeless. It doesn't give a damn that you've been an adult, chronologically, for however long that's been. If your anger is coming from something that happened when you were two, well it might as well have happened 5 minutes ago. Emotional memory doesn't care what the date is.

Hi Russ... it's late and I'm exhausted but I wanted to thank you for your response and especially the part above which really helped me to understand some of this. It didn't help that I had a really sucky session today and I'm annoyed yet again with myself for being such a trusting fool to give so much info (read: ammo) to my T about me and my thoughts.

I wish you luck with the family visit. I have a really small family... my parents are deceased. For me it's the haunting memories giving me anxiety and I absolutely hate New Year's. The thought of going through the holidays with no T is giving me horrible anxiety. I'll keep posting to get through it along with journaling.

Thanks for your thoughts.

TN

As an update.... I'm seeing my T today for the last session before he goes away and I'm feeling really frozen. I'm scared that if this session ends badly I will have to sit with it until he comes back. So I'm not sure I even want to talk to him today or say anything that would cause me to be upset. Moving ahead with any issues feels threatening right now so what do I do... sit and stare at him? Maybe at least he will tell me when he's coming back to the State. I don't know if he realizes how scary it is to hear him say he has no definite return date for someone who has the crazy fear that he is not coming back? I mean... the rational part of me knows in some part of the brain that he IS coming back but I would still feel better if he could tell me that.

I'll let you all know what happens.

TN

An update on my session before T vacation on Wednesday the 23rd. It went okay. I was so shut down that he noticed it right away and told me that he could see that I was all "clamped down and closed up". And I told him that I was so scared that we would end in a bad place that I didn't want to chance talking to him about anything. He smiled at me and told me that he would not allow us to end in a bad place and that we needed to talk about his leaving. He had run 5 minutes late with the client before me (a male) and he wanted to know at first if I was annoyed that he was late and I said no (which was truth). I honestly don't remember much of what I said during the session because I was dissociating so much but I do remember that I was shaking from anxiety. Towards the end he reviewed the contact we could have while he was gone and I had a hard time focusing on that. I do remember that he still would not tell me when he was leaving town or returning only that I have an appt with him on Jan 4th. And he talked about what inner reserves and strength I have to see me through his absence. He knows that I write (I have written 4 unpublished novels) and he sees that my writing is a way to cope with adversity and my way of working things out (a therapy of sorts). He says I find strength there. He also knows that I have stopped writing fiction for the past year as I'm only journaling these days. Don't have time to write more than that aside from writing papers for school. He told me that he thinks I'm very creative and he sees a lot of strength. But he understands how hard it is for me to take this in and I have to learn it for myself (as Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz had to learn that she had the power all along). But he does want me to know how he sees me.

When I was leaving I did hug him and as I did I asked him if he was coming back and he said "I'm coming back" then I asked him if he'd be safe and he said "I will be safe" and then he wished me a very happy holiday and I ran out before I burst into a flood of tears. I realize now that I never looked at him while I was leaving and I have no idea how he looked when I left him. This bothers me for some reason. I have no last memory of his face.

I got an email from him on Christmas Day just wishing me and my family a Merry Christmas. He does not celebrate Christmas.

Right now I'm struggling with not seeing him tomorrow which is our usual day. And I have a full week of not seeing him ahead of me. I miss him already and long to talk to him. Two things happened on Christmas Day which I really struggled with and they feel like a loss that is hard to bear alone. And that's how I feel right now... very alone and because of that I have been pretty much shut down and am going through the motions...smiling and nodding in all the right places but not feeling anything much.

It's my numb place and if I don't stay here the next place I end up is the black hole of self-hate. I will beat myself up for feeling this way. For allowing my T to matter to me, for letting him get close. For not being able to just deal with his absence like an adult. I hate feeling like I'm 3 or that I'm out of control. And his being gone during the holiday season is just so much worse. I hate New Year's and I wish I could just sleep through it.

TN

(((((TN)))))

I'm sorry that you are hurting so much. As much as it might feel like it right now, you are not out of control, and you are not alone. Please come here and write as much as you need to until your T gets back. And he will come back. It is okay that you let him get close, it is okay that he matters. It is more than okay, it is the way of being human and of being alive to let people in, to let them matter to you. Try to be as gentle with yourself as you would be with anyone else here, okay? I hope you don't end up in the black hole, but if you do, keep posting from there. We can talk you through that, too, if you let us.

Hugs,
SG

TN,

Just a few random thoughts, FWIW.

New Years Eve is a joke. It's amateur night. I've had fun on New Years Eve exactly TWICE in my life. I have more fun on Arbor Day.

Isn't trying to relate to regular civilians while you're going through the hell of therapy just awful? It's like being on a different planet. When I've been in that place before - especially during the holidays - I've often fantasised about saying something like, "Ya know, I don't really give a shit about your job OR your yoga class. I'm in psychotherapy because of people like you. Excuse me, I need some more wine."

Do you ever do any dreamwork in your therapy? It might be interesting to pay attention to your dreams during your break. In my opinion, dreaming is your soul talking to you, despite how surreal it is.

Hang in there.
Russ

SG thanks for the hugs. Today was difficult because it's my normal day to see my T. And I do miss him. Nothing seems to ease that pain, not even chocolate which I have been consuming at an alarming rate. I even tried shopping, but it didn't help.

Russ, thank you. You made me laugh which I didn't think I remembered how to do. I would love to say those things to some people during the holidays. As for the dreams...I had two very vivid dreams over the weekend that I have noted and will discuss with my T. I don't usually remember my dreams... I guess my soul has a lot to say lately.

I hope your family holidays went okay. Keep in touch.

TN

Hi TN, how are you feeling today? (I am in a different time zone to you, it is a new day here, not sure if it is for you).

I hope you are doing ok. It is such a hard time, it is making me really start to hate the holidays. Being away from therapy I mean....trying to pretend to my family that I am ok and not hurting constantly.

I miss my P and my doctor but I am also terrified of being without help for so long. I am seeing my doctor on Thursday and she is fantastic and then we are going on holidays for two weeks and I won't be seeing my Ps or my doctor during that time. It feels so scary.

TN and all af you going back to therapy routine after New Year's Day.. you are almost there

But two more weeks for me...
I don't know if I'm obsessed about my T, because I can hardly think of anything else but him.
I know I have the comfort of being absolutely on my own, no family, kids to take care of while daydreaming or hurting like you do.
My soul was also talking to me in my dreams and there was something very meaningful about me and my T-relationship. I want to share it so much with him, but have to wait for the 2 weeks and eventually when the waiting is over I will be in a total panic over seeing him.

How do you deal with you own holidays? Because I find myself unable to take any, go and enjoy it if I am to miss a session because of that. I went away for the weekend couple of months ago to visit a very dear friend, and I managed to do it only because my T was also off during that time. I wish he could give me his holidays and days off schedule for the whole year, so I could book my own holidays and not miss any session that I would miss otherwise. I just don't want to be away unless he is away. Grrr... I think I'm not afraid if he is away. I can wait till he comes back. I'm afraid myself to go away, be tens of hundreds kilometers away from him, and part of me is not sure if I manage to go back and see him again??

Hi Halo, it's Monday evening for me right now. I'm trying to keep busy and my eating is out of control for now. I didn't want to get up this morning and left my husband and son alone for most of the morning so I could hide and sleep and try to pass the time that way. Not the best coping skill, I admit. I know my T expects me to use better coping skills but I can't or don't want to. He seems to be convinced I have this inner strength to get me through the tough times. I think he's confusing me with someone else because I feel weak and pathetic right now.

And so I spend my time being numb/absent or angry and scaring everyone away from me. Other than that I'm busy busy busy.... cleaning, doing laundry, changing bed, rearranging furniture and then when I stop I'm so tired I can't even think straight.

What I'm trying to avoid is the fear and panic at being alone. And I keep wondering where my T is, if he drove or flew there, what he's doing, when will he be back in town etc. I just made a dinner reservation for New Year's Eve at my husband's insistence. Not that I want to go, for me it's just another thing to "get through" like every other day of my life out of therapy. Just days to get through and survive somehow.

My T went away for 15 days last summer and it was a miserable time for me. It felt endless and like I could not breathe. But at least it was not the Christmas/New Year holiday time and I was working not home thinking and trying to keep busy.

Amazon... I seem to handle things better if "I" go away on vacation and not my T. Maybe because I can picture him at work in his office, doing his normal stuff while I'm away being distracted. He is where he is supposed to be and that gives me a sort of weird comfort. And I know where he is if I need him. When he's away I'm sure I'm forgotten and the connection seems broken. He's in the part of his life that I'm not allowed to know about and can never be included in. And that hurts the most.

TN

Got lots to say

quote:

for me it's just another thing to "get through" like every other day of my life out of therapy. Just days to get through and survive somehow.

This is how I always feel. Every single day. Not about the therapy stuff just so low and alone and empty.

I did feel the same about missing my old P last Christmas holidays.

This year it is different for a few reasons.

1. I am on huge amounts of meds now (and yes I still feel lost and low)

2. I know where my old P is, I asked him where he was going for the hols and for how long and he told me, I know he thinks about me he has told me, since he has hugged me twice I finally feel a bit safer that he won't end again.

3. I know that new P has made arrangements if I need him or medical help while he is away so I feel safe there too.

Re going on holidays

I absolutely hate holidays/vacation. We call them holidays here. I have many many stories of scary things that happened while we were away as kids. I think mostly out of neglect or stupidity. Also the tantrums and rages my mother would get into before we got there, as we set up the tent/unpacked, packed up again and then unpacked when we got home. Also she got sick a lot (maybe she has Munchausens) but she was carted off to hospital more than once and once she left us at night alone in a tent while she went to hospital.

My husband loves holidays, loves 4WD, loves camping arrrggghhhh so I compromise and go camping for three nights max and only go to places approx 4-6 hours away. Luckily I live near islands that are like paradise and it is easy to please him.

I feel scared and removed when we are away and very removed from my P. We are going away next week and then again the week after. I plan to ring and check in with my P while away just to keep the connection.

quote:

Originally posted by True North:
I seem to handle things better if "I" go away on vacation and not my T. Maybe because I can picture him at work in his office, doing his normal stuff while I'm away being distracted. He is where he is supposed to be and that gives me a sort of weird comfort. And I know where he is if I need him.

This is interesting. I have the chance to go on an amazing trip to the Baja in March for 10 days, but the idea of missing my therapy has me very scared. But, another part of me is saying, "just go. Get out of your tiny little safe place for once."

Russ

quote:

Originally posted by True North:
When he's away I'm sure I'm forgotten and the connection seems broken. He's in the part of his life that I'm not allowed to know about and can never be included in. And that hurts the most.

Oh ((((TN)))) I know this feeling all too well! It's heartbreaking. It's an awful feeling to know that WE are what our t's need a vacation from! I'm so sorry that your hurting like this too... but I have to remind myself that, much like parents who NEED to have date nights and such, our t's couldn't be available to us in the capacity that they are if not for their alone time and family time. I hate to be excluded from "family" but it is what it is and I have to accept that. I don't have to like it or feel good about it or even get used to it, but I do have to see it as a part of life. I will never be my t's daughter, but at least I get to be around her in some regard. I do indulge the fantasy at time and wonder what certain situations would be like if I were with my t...

Out of curiosity, is it 12/31 that bothers you or 1/1? Or just this time of year? I loathe 12/31 because it was my mother's birthday. I hate that day. Do you mind sharing why this time of year is so difficult for you? You don't have to by any means... just thought it might help to talk to us here instead of feeling like you have to handle it alone.

Anyway, ((((((((TN)))))))))!!!!! (that was a BIG hug!)

-CT

CT... thanks for the big hugs. That felt good.

I guess what it all really comes down to is that I'm angry that my T left me and went away. That's it in a nutshell. Of course this feels so irrational to me and then I feel guilty and hate myself for being so weak and so on. It goes round and round until it sucks me into a vortex of blackness.

I'm sorry that 12/31 is such a hard day for you. You have every reason to hate it. I'd love to share with you why I hate 12/31 but I don't really know what it is. I just start to feel panicky about something than I cannot name. Maybe that there are some unnamed expectations I'm supposed to live up to? Or fear of what a new year will bring to me (of course it can never be something good...). That's all I can come up with. I guess it's another topic for therapy. But thanks for asking.

TN

I shouldn't be whining here because I had an awesome session with my T yesterday. She extended my session almost 30 minutes without me asking her to. I was able to say things to her I didn't think I could. She was wonderful and I left on a high, so grateful to her. But of course I cannot sustain the good feelings for long, and I am descending to a bad place. She is not available to me for about 10 days. I realize that is less time than what some of you are dealing with, so I'm sorry for selfishly unloading. It's just I am fighting against this puzzling sense of entitlement that wants to scream out to my T: Why can’t you ALWAYS be here when I need you?!!! I can’t talk to you whenever I want to, and that’s what I want. Why can’t you be like a second mom and adopt me as your own? A real mother - a good one - would enjoy hearing from me often and wouldn’t mind my phone calls and texts. She wouldn’t have rules about not giving me presents. She would share some of her private life with me. I am supposed to believe all these boundaries are for my own good, but what it feels like is proof that I am unlovable.

I'm sorry for being so negative. This post is hardly supportive to any of you going through similar feelings right now. I guess I'm just venting alongside you because I can't vent to my T.

Hi MH...when you are in pain it does not matter how long you are without your T, 2 weeks, 10 days or 10 minutes. It just seems endless. So please feel free to rant and rage here. This is the place for it and we understand.

I'm glad you had such a long productive session yesterday with your T. Sometimes when that happens the crash is jolting. We have to come down from that high and it can be painful. The bad sessions are bad but the good ones can also be bad the day after.

Therapy is a sort of substitute for the good parenting that we never had but it's never totally enough. We need to accept that it will never fulfill all those needs that were not met when we were children and so we must grieve the loss and hopefully ... eventually let it go and accept that which we cannot go back to recapture. I'm certainly not there yet so I have no idea what happens to get to that point. But I do have a good idea that it is not an easy road to travel.

Good luck to all of us,
TN

I am totally freaking out now. This is so stupid. I am not suppose to see my P for two more weeks. I only see him once a month. I have been okay with it this time and usually I have a very hard time making it through the month. I was doing really good until I called him two days and he didnt answer his cell phone. I waited until yesterday to try again and he still didnt answer or call me back. He always eventually calls me back the same day I call him. So I tried to call his office to tell his secretary that I needed to talk to him. All I got was the answering service message saying that his office will be closed until next Monday. I started freaking out and cant stop. This should not even bother me cause I am not suppose to see him until the 12th but all the sudden it made the time seem so much worse. I thought he would at least be at his office this week like he is every other year. And now I dont know where he is or what he is doing. I dont know if he is at home taking vacation or if he went to Dallas to see his daughter or California to see his other daughter. I need to know where he is and that he is okay. I wish he would have just told me he was going to be out of his office and for how long. I know I wasnt scheduled to see him while he is gone but I thought he would be available if I needed him and I was okay as long as I knew where he was. I feel stupid for feeling this way. I feel like a little kid throwing a fit because my daddy went somewhere without telling me exactly where he was going or what time he would be back. I feel abandoned by him and feel like he left without telling me just cause he needed to get away from me and he isnt going to come back.

My adult self keeps saying this is stupid and I have no right to feel this way and that he can go anywhere he wants whenever he wants to. But the little kids wants to go into next session throwing a fit and giving him the silent treatment for doing this to me. And it makes me feel worse now about next Tuesday when I am suppose to start therapy with a new therapist. My P is making me get a therapist and I start next Tuesday. I know nothing about this lady and I am not sure I want to risk another relationship like this.

This also makes me want to just call him over and over again until he finally answers just so he can feel upset and hurt like I do.

(((((((TN, Mad Hatter, Halo, Pippi)))))))

I wish I knew what to say to make your pain go away. But if nothing else, I'm glad you are here and expressing it. I for one don't think you are whining or negative or anything like that. I hope you will keep coming here and express your anger and frustration when you need to and please don't ever feel like you can't.

I haven't gotten to this point with my T yet, of being angry at her because of the boundaries. The only anger I had with my former T was a kind of frustration over what was actually going wrong in the relationship. In both cases, the idea of really being angry with them scares (scared) the crap out of me. There is something in me that wants to immediately turn anger in on myself so they won't abandon me. That's exactly what I did with the former T, turned it inward and came up with rationalizations, excuses, anything to keep from expressing it to him. Because the idea of losing him was way too scary to risk the honesty of anger. I was actually afraid because I didn't even know where the boundaries were, and so afraid of losing him if I bumped into one. I'm even afraid to express the anger I had toward my former T to my current T for fear of losing her. I can't even imagine getting angry at her. Again, way too scary.

So maybe this sounds weird, but I think it's healthy and kind of brave that you can get mad at your T/P and not turn it in on yourself. Please don't think I'm minimizing your pain, though - I'm not at all. Just that it's healthier to put it out "there", or here, than it would be to keep it inside.

I don't know if this will be helpful but I'll throw it out there. TN mentioned that therapy is a kind of substitute parenting. It reminded me of how I've heard that it's healthy for kids to push against the boundaries their parents set. Hard on the parents, I can tell you (we have two kids), but it means they feel secure enough in the relationship to test it. I've also heard that it's a sign of neglect or abuse when kids are afraid to test boundaries. It means they don't feel safe enough to do so.

Maybe that principle is relevant here...maybe it means you have a healthy therapeutic relationship. Although I know that does nothing to take the pain away. Anyway please know that your thoughts are always welcome here and you don't have to go through this pain alone.

Lots of hugs,
SG

Hi All,
Sorry I've been MIA lately, lots of illness, holiday plans and some coping in therapy. I just wanted to drop in on this thread and address two things: the intensity of missing our T/Ps and therapy not being enough. Both have been major themes in my therapy and I feel both are extremely important to healing.

On missing our T/Ps. I can hear everyone beating themselves up for acting childishly and how irrational they're being and how they shouldn't feel this way, but its really very understandable and in some ways very healthy that you are feeling that way. All children have a difficult time with separation from their attachment figures. We are biologically driven towards proximity with our attachment figures, as it is a matter of life and death when we are very young. Every young mammal will get agitated, then protest when separated from their attachment figure. If the protest goes on long enough without the attachment figure returning, we fall into despair. Part of our development is supposed to be having a caring other who can hear our pain and anger at the separation, understand it and help us to soothe it. We learn to tolerate separation by having it happen time and again and being able to experience our AF returning each time and learning that the relationship withstood the separation. If we didn't have good enough parenting NONE of that happened and we had to store away the intolerable feelings experience when we were separated because no one heard us, let alone helped us to deal with them.

So its perfectly understandable that these feelings are occurring when our T/Ps leave. The really good part is that now you have someone who is only concerned with your needs and with whom its safe to express these emotions. I went through a year and a half of having to work through my anger and feelings of abandonment whenever my T went away. I know it feels totally useless to express these emotions, after all, they're not going to stop going away on vacations. But think about a small child and their parents. Parents also have to leave their children sometimes, to go to work or take care of other necessary things. What makes it tolerable is when our feelings are understood so we know that we matter, that the going away isn't because of something we did (it actually doesn't have anything to do with us, nor does it say anything about our relationship), and that the person will return and that the relationship will endure the separation. I know it's extremely scary to express these feelings but I would really recommend talking to your T/Ps when they get back. My T and I talked at our last session about how much patients hate both December and August. So instead of hating yourself for having these (very understandable in light of our history) feelings, step back, be gentle with yourself, and try to understand why you feel this way. It's how you learn about yourself and heal. NONE of you are being childish, greedy, crazy, irrational or any other of the perjorative things you're thinking. You're dealing with long buried denied needs that deserve to be heard. You deserve to be heard.

On therapy not being enough. For me this was at the heart of my healing and the most difficult thing I've even had to face. I couldn't even hear or understand this until I had done a lot of healing. The truth is that although therapy for many of us provides a loving, trusting relationship that concentrates on our needs in a way we've never experienced before, its still NOT enough. And I say that as someone who never knew what home really was until my relationship with this T. (I actually emailed him the day after Christmas to tell him I was missing him because I wanted to go home for Christmas but because of the boundaries couldn't be with him on Christmas). But the truth is that we are able to take in truths and learn things when we are children in a way we're not capable of later in life. But when the needs aren't met as children they don't go away. And so we spend the rest of our life restlessly (and often desparately) looking to get those needs met. And it's painful and leaves us empty because it's not possible. So then we go to therapy and at last it looks like we've found what we're looking for, at long last those needs will be met. But then we slam into the boundaries, and the horrible fact that we can't get enough, that it's not possible eventually leaks through. The only way to let go of those longings and stop our fruitless search is to recognize our loss, feel the emotions surrounding the deprivation and mourn what we didn't get so that we can heal and go on.

And that is where the therapy is so important. It is in our therapy relationship that we have someplace safe enough to experience the terrifying emotions and grief which accompany the losses we have to face. Where we can learn that the losses were not our fault, that we deserved better, that we matter enough to be heard. That we have a place where we are understood enough and cared for enough to be able to mourn and heal. But I will not lie to you, there really aren't words to describe how painful and terrifying and overwhelming it was at times. But there is another side to despair and even a relief in finally facing and grieving the loss. The grief was diffcult but it was MY grief and I had a right to feel it and express it and have it be heard. And as I have worked through that grief (the jury's still out on whether I've finished grieving) I have learned that there is another side to despair. That I can get enough to go on and live more fully, to experience joy and so much more scope to my life now that I'm not expending all my energy looking for something I can never find.

I hope some of that helps, I don't want to minimize anyone's pain, I really do know from the inside out just how hard this can be. But know that however impossible it looks now, there is a way through.

AG

Thank you AG for writing all of that out. Although, congnitively, I do know some of it, it's nice to see it in print so that I can go back to it when I need to be reminded of what is really going on. I agree that much of these feelings come from what I didn't get as a child and what was not taught to me. Some of it is anger that I still have a problem with managing or even acknowledging. Throw in some fear, guilt, anxiety and you have a description of me when T is gone.

I see him in FIVE days. I'm feeling better thanks to all the support I've received here on this Board. It has been so helpful to have a place to come and whine and rant and rage. It's also helpful to know that you all understand the feelings and perhaps (unfortunately) are experiencing them too. It helps me to feel less "crazy".

What has helped a lot is going back to read an email that my T sent me in response to one I sent him at Thanksgiving. At Thanksgiving I wrote him an email letting him know all that I am thankful for (relating to him and therapy). This is a man who offers me a safe place, who accepts the real me, who cries with me, who offers endless reassurance, who is patient, who really listens to me, who understands my dreams and supports them unwaveringly...when I told him all of this and more he wrote back to me that I should remember all that I have learned, discovered, accepted, and let go in therapy and should I ever be lost in a stormy sea that these strengths will lead me back to shore safely. THIS is why I miss him so much.

Thanks for listening.
TN

I see my P in 11 days! It still seems so far away but I finally got a text from him It has been three days since I texted him and told him how bad I felt. He actually apologized to me for taking so long to get back to me but said wherever he is the phone service is patchy. Which him saying that makes me really wonder where is at right now. I want to know so bad. He did tell me he will talk to me in a couple days, which means he is going to call me before my next appointment. And the last thing he put in the text is that he is proud of me I know it too sounds childish but I am on an almost high feeling from reading those words from him! Its like a little girl hearing from their daddy that he is really proud of them. I never heard that much when I was younger and it feels so good to hear it now. I cant stop smiling and its been two hours since I got the text. It means even more because I have been making him so frustrated with me lately. I did text him back and told him how much it meant for him to say that to me and ended it with "I LOVE YOU" I cant wait to hear from him and I am so happy right now.

On another note I think I am falling more in love with him and want him to be my daddy so badly but still having the erotic transference too! I even stayed up last night til midnight(which usually I dont do even on new years) because I wanted to make sure my P was the last thing I thought about it 2009 and the first thing I was thinking about it 2010. I AM PATHETIC! but it did make me feel better and this is the first year I felt the need to do that, not really sure why.

hmmm... I never texted or phoned my T. I never discussed it with him and I don't know if it would be ok if I texted him and would he reply. I suppose I shoud ask him what are the rules there. I don't really feel the need to text him (for now), but I also would not want to upset him if that would mean crossing the boundary. I think later on when/if my feelings will get so intense that I would miss him really badly I may need to text him and get something back to hold on to. I don't really feel that I am in crisis and need to have some sort of contact in between the sessions. I think I assume that that kind of contact is only allowed when the client is in real need/crisis and because I am not perhaps I should not have it/ask for it. If I don't really need it that I should not pursue it. Perhaps it would be nice, but I don't know if I am entitled to it. Just wondering here....

My P says to only call or text during an emergency if its a time when he is not at work. I can call and text for anything during his work hours, its just my way of making sure he gets the message that I need to talk to him because his old secretary would never give him any messages. I do make him mad sometimes for texting or calling to much. We go back and forth on that and I tell him its like a little child trying to get attention from her daddy. If they are not getting attention when they are being good then they will act bad to get the negative attention because that is better than nothing at all. And me texting to much gets the negative attention and it makes him seem more real because when he says nice things to me he could be lying or just saying it to make me feel better but not really believe what he is saying. But when he is angry I know that is the real him and he means every word he says. Plus I will do anything to get attention from him because I love him and if he is reading a text from in between sessions than I know he is thinking about me at least for that minute and hasnt forgotten about me. He does not even respond to every text now. He tries to figure out what is most important to respond to and if its not important he wont give me the attention I am trying to get from him.

The good thing is that him getting angry at me works for me and makes me feel more connected to him, probably because of how I was treated as a kid. For most patients our relationship wouldnt work good but it does for me and he tells me all the time that some of the stuff he does or says he would not say to any other patient because it would not benefit them at all. The other nice thing is he can always tell when there is an emergency and he knows just what to say to me when its during those times to make me feel better and get through it.

And this is not something I asked for permission to do. I have his number for emergency situations and just started texting one day. And as far as his email, I used to be able to email him in highschool and he would respond and it was okay. Now he doesnt usually respond and says he only checks his email once every few weeks so I am not suppose to ever send him anything very important that way. And this time I did not get his email address from him, I found it by doing searches on the internet...and he does know that now.

I guess I probably should have asked permission and what the boundaries were but I like to push boundaries and get away with as much as possible

It's strange. I haven't had the experience that a lot of you here have with missing your Ts. We've discussed this in our sessions and he says that I sanitise my relationship with him. So, while I will say that I don't like missing therapy, I will not say - or feel - that I miss him.

In a way, I'm a little envious of those who actually feel this longing because it means that you've got a solid transference going, which seems to be crucial to healing. I have a kind of sanitised, repressed transference going and it feels like a real problem.

When I tell him that I feel like I should be feeling more of a connection to him, he says that expecting to feel something and then not feeling it is a sign of being on the wrong road, and to get on the right road, I have to read the signs.

But, he then said, "being on the wrong road has it's benefits." I'm still not sure what these benefits are.

Still, I would much rather feel longing and anger than the fog of anxiety that prevents me from feeling these. I'm sure part of it is being a male in this totally messed up culture, growing up in the 70s and having parents who are emotionally repressed.

Russ

I know what his rules are regarding emails - texts - cell phone. BUT I have been burned on that. Mostly not having (the precious FEW I have ever sent) emails returned even after I asked why. I don't contact him indiscriminantly, so I don't like it if he takes it casually and decides for me if it's important to respond. So I am making a point of not using any of that unless it's desperate.

This vacation of his right now is killing me. Because we were in the middle of something very heavy and I feel in the lurch. I can't stop the conversation in my head and am seriously in need of his input and putting closure to this.

Let me ask this of you all -- how much do you think a T's ego should appear in therapy? It's not useful for me to know if he is tired or hungry sometimes -- I need him to be fully present. I don't need endless examples from his past. Sometimes I think he gets carried away. Sometimes I think he needs his own therapist. How do you experience your P/T's ego and involvement in your issues?

quote:

Originally posted by Freudian Slip:
Let me ask this of you all -- how much do you think a T's ego should appear in therapy? It's not useful for me to know if he is tired or hungry sometimes -- I need him to be fully present. I don't need endless examples from his past. Sometimes I think he gets carried away. Sometimes I think he needs his own therapist. How do you experience your P/T's ego and involvement in your issues?

FS,

My T is of the "blank slate" variety. This is not to say that he doesn't talk or is unresponsive at all. He's very engaged in our relationship and I know he knows me very well. In fact, he know me better than even I like to admit, which tells you something about my own issues.

Anyway, while he is very much engaged, he's also very professional and maintains a professional detachment in terms of revealing anything about himself. I see my T three times a week and I've been seeing him for a year and 8 months. He's never once told me anything about himself. From my own research, I do know that he's married and has a son in his twenties, and I know about his education and length of practice. But that's it.

That said, I often wonder if this detachment is making it difficult for me to see him as a real person, thus making is difficult to get a real, conscious transference going. I know for a fact that I do have a major connection with him, but I have a hard time feeling it consciously.

As far as my T's ego, I know just from my time with him that he's got an excellent wit, is extremely bright and insightful, and is very much a humanist and politically liberal, which is right in line with myself.

To your question, I don't think there's a clean cut, yes or no answer. A lot depends on the kind of therapy your having and what your issues are. Mine is more of a long-term, psycho-dynamic analysis. For me personally, not spending time talking about my T makes it clear to me that the focus of my therapy is me, not him.

I find it interesting that your T discusses his past. Does he do this to illustrate a point about you, or is it about him?

Russ

Russ,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply! I thought my T was going to be a blank slate. I asked the obligatory questions in the beginning, re: education, dissertation, experience -- and he would answer anything I asked. I told him he was un-google-able (sp??), and to that he responded that he kept a low profile. I have come to believe that there is really nothing to google - he's not published, went to a school I never heard of, is not terribly involved in the community.......so that was more a clever dodge!

Given that we are both trauma victims, it has been appropriate that he give examples. It helps me understand, and I also get that he can truly empathize. He draws comparisons, tries to strengthen the connection. He can get carried away, and sometimes that is fine. I'm learning to finesse a transition back to me.

Sometimes in response to questions, and more often not, he has offered up way too much about himself. It is almost uncomfortable knowing how many times he's been married, what he's going through with his kids, etc. When the information has therapeutic value, I am OK with it. And as interested as I THOUGHT I was about his life, I am finding it distracting and maddening. I've gone so far as to think he tells me stuff to avoid the transference quandry - HA HA - who could fall in love with someone with all these issues. I don't think he's that Machiavellian - but it's working. I like him and respect him - and to his credit, if I were to bring up any of these concerns with him, he would tackle them. It's jsut confusing that his boundaries are so fuzzy. And silly me, I thought I would like that!

FS,

Have you told your T about these concerns you have? I can certainly see it as possibly being a significant problem in your therapy if it's making you uncomfortable. If you're afraid to bring it up directly to him, consider it an exercise in being assertive.

Russ

Hi FS... the reason you don't like the fuzzy boundaries is that they make you feel less safe. Boundaries are there for us to enable us to feel safe enough to tell our Ts anything and trust that nothing unethical will happen. My T goes off on a tangent at times (although not in a personal way, just on another topic) and I have to reel him back in. Sometimes I'm good at it and other times I don't even realize we got off topic until our time is up and I'm left feeling unheard and frustrated.

It sounds like your T will be open to you telling him that this bothers you so do it. It can't hurt and only help aside from it being a good topic in therapy. You asking for what you need and as Russ said, being assertive.

Good luck.
TN