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T1 wants me to stop seeing T3.

ladygreyladygreyMember
T1 wants me to stop seeing the new T that she INSISTED I go see a few months ago. I'm confused and not sure what to do.

Brief recap:
Saw T1 1992-94, lost touch in 1998, resumed therapy via skype (she lives out of state) in 2010.Few months ago T1 terminated my therapy because she isn't licensed where I live and insisted I go see another T. We've continued to talk twice a week for an hour each time and we text every day. She no longer charges me any money though and doesn't call it "therapy". She said she will be like a mom to me and will never stop talking to me.

Okay, so fast forward to this week and I've been seeing T3 for about six weeks. I finally told T3 about T1 and the whole 20 year history with her. T3 was very openly judgemental of what I told her and said that "that is not therapy" (which I am pretty sure most of you have said as well) and then told me, "you are in a relationship with T1." and I said, "Oh god no. its not like that. I just want her to be my mom. Its not a 'relationship'".

T3 said, "T1 is not your mother. She will never be your mother." and I said, "But she said she wants me to think of her like a mother" and T3 said that is not fair to me because T1 can never love me the way that a mother loves their own child. Would a mother abaondon their child when their child is suicidal?" she asked me, to illustrate her point. I said, "But she didn't abandon me. She still talks to me." and T3 said, "Well she abandoned all responsibility of you by making you claim another therapist on paperwork and removing her paper trail to you".

T3 also said, "I am not going to make you stop talking to her because what you are doing with her is not therapy so there is no issue of seeing two therapists at once, but I do think the goal of our therapy needs to be to get you to stop talking to her and say goodbye forever. I think she has you trapped in her web and this is not healthy for you". Naturally I became fly-off-the-handle defensive and pulled out the cat claws prepared to defend T1 to the death with T3. But then I realized she may be right in some of her observations, though not all of them.

So then today I talked to T1 and she asked me how it is going with T3. I told her that T3 wants me to stop talking to T1. I asked T1, "Do you think I am too attached to you?" and she said no, that I need a mother figure like her in my life in order to heal. I told her, "I don't agree with all of T3s assessments, but I told T3 about how devastating it was when you terminated my therapy....and T3 said she can help me get to a place where it won't hurt to lose you when that happens again" and then T1 got upset with me for saying "when that happens again" and said that she is never going to stop talking to me, that she loves me, etc.

T1 went on to say that she can understand why T3 might be alarmed by hearing about our bond and admitted that she too would be alarmed if someone came into her office telling her the same things, but "T3 doesn't really understand our history and there is a lot she doesn't know about". T1 said she thinks it may be a good idea for me to stop seeing T3. I said, "But you are the one who made me go to her!" and T1 said that she has changed her mind and said that she thinks T3 may do more harm than good. She asked me if I would cancel my next appt with T3 and I said I didn't know. T1 wanted to know what my hesitation was about this. I told her, "Sometimes it feels good to love you...but other times it hurts. T3 says she can help me work through that...and maybe that is what I need". T1 said she thinks part of the problem is that I do not allow myself to accept her love and she can help me work though that which would be more beneficial than pushing her away.

Soooooo....now I am totally confused and not sure of what to do. I feel like I'm back in the same situation I had when I was going to T1 and T2 and T2 made me choose between the two of them. I know that I do not want to stop talking to T1...but there was something comforting and grounding in T3 saying that she will help me not be so wrapped up in T1. I keep thinking, "What if T1 abandons me again?" and that's when I think that what T3 is offering may be tremendously helpful to me. I believe she can help me. I will never become attached to T3, I know this. And I am starting to think that she may actually know what she is doing. But I am also scared to let go of T1. I really love her!

To add to the difficulty of the discussion with T1, she held up a mother's day card I made for her that she got in the mail and told me how much she loved it and had brought it home to put on her nightstand. It pulled at my heartstrings to see her smile and tell me how much she loved the card. I can't imagine saying goodbye to her "forever" as T3 put it. But at least if I did, it would be on my own terms and not an abandonment on her part which would leave me crippled.

Sorry to ramble. Just feeling confused and trying to sort this out but my emotions are making it all muddy.
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B bltMember
T1 has jerked you around a lot already. I would not stop seeing T3 just because T1 told you to.

I agree with most of what T3 said, but maybe it is not her place to say that eventually having no contact with T1 should be the goal. Would you be able to say to her that you do want to work through your feelings about T1, but you're not ready yet to decide on how exactly it should be resolved? In the end in any case, neither of your T's has the right to tell you what do do. Only you can decide what to do and what is best for YOU, which after all is who your therapy is supposed to be about.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Hi LG... it's good to hear from you and good to see that you have found your T3.

I have to say that T3 really does sound like a good T who knows what she is talking about and I agree with what she had told you. Especially the part where she says that T1 is not being fair to you because she can never really be your mom and she cannot love you as a mother loves her child but more importantly she (and you) cannot go back in time to provide the love and care that you would have needed and deserved to have as a child. I think T3 is being very reasonable in the way she looks upon T1 ... and even generous in her opinion of her.

T1 is unhealthy for you because she has made her feelings and her needs an important part of your relationship and no you have not been doing therapy with her for a very long time. And she did abandon you when you were suicidal. You may not ever get to a point where she is totally out of your life but I do think you can reach a place where her role in your life is just not as important and you will be able to draw your own better boundaries around your relationship with her. My T has emphasized over and over again that what keeps me safe in my relationship with him is that HE is a safe person and he has demonstrated that over and over again. HE keeps me safe, not his office, or his furniture or where we sit etc. From what I observe of T1... she does not keep you safe. She is unpredictable, inconsistent and she has very bad boundaries. I also think she is VERY threatened by T3 (i.e, a T with clear boundaries, who sees T1 for what she is).

I think you absolutely and definitely need to stay with T3. You will grow with her and become stronger and then YOU will be the one to decide what the relationship is with T1 and what you need. T1 telling you to leave T3 is only for HER benefit. I'm sorry to say that it's obvious to me that she is not thinking of what is best for you, the person she claims to love. If that is love, then her love is very selfish and self-centered.

I am so glad you checked in with us and for sharing this. I hope I have not been too opinionated about this issue and upset you. Unless T3 shows some serious ethical breaches I would stay with her. Keep us posted.

Hugs
TN
quellquellMember
Hi LG,
I agree with the rest of the crew for the most part, but I can imagine how freaky and hard it must feel to think about this idea
quote:
the goal of our therapy needs to be to get you to stop talking to her and say goodbye forever.

So yeah, I don't think you should stop seeing T3 by any means. It sounds like she really wants to help you and thinks she can help you. She sounds smart, too. I like BLT's idea of sort of easing into it.
quote:
Would you be able to say to her that you do want to work through your feelings about T1, but you're not ready yet to decide on how exactly it should be resolved?

One step at a time, maybe. See what you can do with T3 for now.

Take care and let us know.

Quell
ladygreyladygreyMember
BLT, I think I could say that to T1 that I don't want to cut off contact with T3 but that I do want to work on being less attached. T3 doesn't seem to be pressuring me to cut off contact soon. She just thinks that ultimately T1 and I need to part ways, but I think T3 would b okay if T1 and I simply limited contact. Thanks for the suggestion.

PJ,
Your word, "narcissistic" jumped out at me. I have never really thought of T1 as being narcissistic but now that I think about it, I was really surprised by something T1 said today. She said, "I think it will be very hard to find another T like me or rather whom you have this kind of connection with, its special and cannot be replicated" and I was a little shocked by how narcissistic she sounded when she said that. It isn't typical of her to be that way. She is usually humble but I am now looking back and seeing that she rarely every apologizes for any mistakes she makes which to me is a bit narcisstic. anyway, i thought it was interesting you used that word. Thank you for the reply.

TN,
I am not offended at all by anything you wrote. I appreciate the candid response and always appreciate your insight. And I do think I will continue to see T3. I'm almost a little afraid of T1 and the things she says...things I have wanted to hear for a long time but once they come out of her mouth I feel scared. I need a good solid T to keep me from getting even more emeshed with T1.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
And I do think I will continue to see T3. I'm almost a little afraid of T1 and the things she says...things I have wanted to hear for a long time but once they come out of her mouth I feel scared. I need a good solid T to keep me from getting even more emeshed with T1.


LG... this reminded me of something my T said to me last week. We were talking about the attachment feelings in a therapeutic relationship and how it's important that even though he cares very much about me and that there is an attachment on his end (in the proper therapeutic way) he asked how would I feel if suddenly HE brought all his feelings and needs into the room and began to make that the focus... getting HIS needs met instead of focusing on what I needed? I said it would scare the crap out of me. So despite what we THINK we want from our Ts (declarations of undying love etc) it would screw up the balance necessary for good therapy and it would really scare us too. I think that is what your T1 is doing. Her feelings about things have become the focus and she is trying to make them more important than what is best for you.

I'm glad you are sticking with T3.

TN
L lieseMember
((((LG)))

So nice to see you. I'm sorry you are still having trouble with T1. It does sound like she is getting her own needs met through you. And you know that doesn't make good therapy or therapy at all, really. T3 sounds great. I like her approach. There are no demands. She knows it's going to take time. If you can't break it off with T1, why not continue to see T3 but just not mention it. I know it's hard to live a double life but unless you can tear yourself away from T1, it might be the better option.



Liese
lamplighterlamplighterMember
LG good to see you still around!

I had to pipe up here and say the following, please take it as being based entirely on my imagining how I’d feel if I were in your place and not intended as anything other than my reactions to your story.

It sounds to me like you’re getting a lot of positive things from your relationship with T1 and though there are obviously issues (I recall several times previously you’ve struggled with the nature of the relationship and felt like you should get out of it) on the whole I get the impression that there are valid emotional reasons for your wanting to maintain the relationship. So, why not?

You might well be aware of the pitfalls and the dangers and the potential that it could all end in tears (which sounds like your fear of being abandoned by her more than anything else) but if you turn yourself inside out trying to anticipate all that and still continue in the relationship, what’s the point of beating yourself up about it? T1 may well be getting her own needs met through you, but as this is no longer officially therapy, then isn’t that exactly what friends and lovers do anyway? It’s become a two way relationship and I personally don’t see anything wrong with that if you’re actually getting things you need and want yourself from T1.

Why don’t you just go for whatever it is the relationship is giving you and decide that if and when it all falls apart you’ll just deal with it then. And use it as a learning thing along the way. If you find yourself face down on the floor realizing that she couldn’t be your mother after all, so what? That’s when you can learn from it. No amount of rational discourse on how you can never undo or replace what’s been lost in the past is going to counter whatever positive feelings and meeting of needs that you are getting from this relationship now. If I were in your place I would find it very difficult (make that impossible) to reject something as positive as your relationship with T1 sounds, purely on the grounds that it’s not ‘good for me’. If it turns out to be destructive, so be it. Unless you are mostly certain NOW that it’s destructive, I don’t understand why you should be expected to cut her out of your life.

On that note I want to put in a warning about T3. No matter that she’s not openly telling you to finish with T1, she’s nevertheless made it clear that she disapproves and for her to state that the ‘goal of your therapy is to get you to stop talking and say goodbye forever’ is pretty blatant about what she expects of you, regardless of your feelings and wishes. I also find it counter therapeutic that she should be so blunt about telling you what to do with your life. And I see that’s already set up conflict and defensiveness in you. Wouldn’t it have been infinitely better for her to have understood your dilemma and fears and allowed YOU to come to whatever decision you needed to regarding T1 and supported you in that process? If the goal of your therapy is to extricate yourself from the relationship with T1, I can only hope that that is actually what you want.

It also sounds like T1 is not delivering ultimatums (yet) that you stop seeing T3, but she is understandably concerned that T3 is threatening your relationship with her. This reminds me very much of the scenario with T2 where T1 and T2 were pitted against each other (perhaps there’s something in this dynamic that feels familiar?)

I can’t help thinking that T1 saying things like this

quote:
T1 said she thinks part of the problem is that I do not allow myself to accept her love and she can help me work though that which would be more beneficial than pushing her away.


might actually hold more than a grain of truth. Lol I am probably envious because to me it’s almost like you’re getting the best of both worlds – someone who is genuinely emotionally involved with you on a real human level but who is also prepared to help you in a ‘therapeutic’ way. That is my fantasy! Sure there are lots of red flags there, but as you’ve been in this relationship outside of the official therapeutic framework for a long time now, it might be more confusing and even damaging to view it through the lens of therapy proper than it would be to take it on its own merits.

Whatever you decide about T1, I wish you all the best Smiler

LL
number9number9Member


You can't strip all the "unsafe" things out of life and still live it fully, as an adult. Since you are the one who has to live with your own decision, you are the only one that can decide.

Good luck to you, this sounds like a very difficult situation. Whatever the outcome, it could make you wiser. I do agree that T3 seems to be hell bent on taking the opportunity to make your own decision away from you.

Do you trust YOURSELF? Wink

This all reminds me, I was reading about Japanese wabi-sabi. When something is broken or damaged, like a vase, instead of discarding the vase, it is glued/bound back together, and the cracks (damage) are painted with gold, and this damage becomes symbolic of resilient and imperfect beauty. Thought I would share this.
yakusokuyakusokuMember
Everybody else has already said it, but I do think it is good to continue with T3 and if T1 wants what is best for you, as a loving mother-figure and a therapist, she won't feel threatened by someone else's judgment of the relationship, but just hope you can work through the parts of it that make it very painful and sometimes unhealthy. If the relationship does have some healthy, positive aspects to it, working through the unhealthier dependence-related aspects can only improve things for you. I'm glad you are working with a therapist locally. Even if you don't feel like you can attach to her, just having a support person in place, especially after relocating, is hugely important!

(((hugs)))
catalystcatalystMember
((LG)) what a confusing situation.

I really agree with what LL had to say about the envy stuff. Because the relationship with T1 however dysfunctional is basically a dream relationship for a lot of trauma survivors in a way. I think that makes it so much more difficult for you or anyone (T3, us, etc) to be completely detached.

In my personal opinion I think the relationship is damaging with T1, but I understand it probably feels impossible to walk away. I really like and agree with everything BG had to say and that's sort of my line of thinking too.

It is really good to see you back. And happy belated, by the way.
scaredtoriskmyselfscaredtoriskmyselfCo-moderator
LG,

I agree with what has already been said as well. I think T3 sounds very reasonable and I think continuing to see her is a good idea. In my opinion (not that you asked) it sounds like the relationship with T1 is enmeshed and unhealthy. I know how hard it is to get out of that type of situation and it feels like you might not survive if you do (sorry, I'm putting words in your mouth), but you will. You will know when you get to that point and your gut will tell you what to do and you'll stop getting arguments from your head and your heart.

An interesting read that might help you is "Narcisssism and the Psychotherapist" by Sheila Rouslin Welt and William G. Herron. Great book. It might sound familiar in many parts if you read it. I believe there is a preview on Google books.

Having just ended an enmeshed relationship with a T, I can say that there is life after the ending. There is great comfort in seeing a T who has clear boundaries and is consistent.

Good luck to you. I'm glad you posted!
L lieseMember
quote:
No amount of rational discourse on how you can never undo or replace what’s been lost in the past is going to counter whatever positive feelings and meeting of needs that you are getting from this relationship now.


LL, I sure do get that! You make some interesting and thought-provoking statements.

LG, will be thinking of you.



Liese
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by True North:
quote:
And I do think I will continue to see T3. I'm almost a little afraid of T1 and the things she says...things I have wanted to hear for a long time but once they come out of her mouth I feel scared. I need a good solid T to keep me from getting even more emeshed with T1.


LG... this reminded me of something my T said to me last week. We were talking about the attachment feelings in a therapeutic relationship and how it's important that even though he cares very much about me and that there is an attachment on his end (in the proper therapeutic way) he asked how would I feel if suddenly HE brought all his feelings and needs into the room and began to make that the focus... getting HIS needs met instead of focusing on what I needed? I said it would scare the crap out of me. So despite what we THINK we want from our Ts (declarations of undying love etc) it would screw up the balance necessary for good therapy and it would really scare us too. I think that is what your T1 is doing. Her feelings about things have become the focus and she is trying to make them more important than what is best for you.

I'm glad you are sticking with T3.

TN


TN,

I see your point. However, I can't say that T1 has made it all about her...not by any stretch. She rarely expresses her feelings about me unless we are fighting and/or repairing a rupture. She doesn't talk about herself much at all unless I ask and even then she has been secretive about her on-again/off-again relationship with her partner, perhaps because she is embarrassed that she has taken her back again after their last major breakup or perhaps because she is wanting to keep me from being too friendly with her and keeping the focus on me to keep in more like therapy. I dunno. She used to talk about her son quite a bit but I told her that upset me and she stopped doing it so much. Most of the time, we focus on me and how I am doing and what is going on in my life. Honestly, it is hardly about her needs at all.
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by Liese:
((((LG)))

So nice to see you. I'm sorry you are still having trouble with T1. It does sound like she is getting her own needs met through you. And you know that doesn't make good therapy or therapy at all, really. T3 sounds great. I like her approach. There are no demands. She knows it's going to take time. If you can't break it off with T1, why not continue to see T3 but just not mention it. I know it's hard to live a double life but unless you can tear yourself away from T1, it might be the better option.



Liese


Hi Liese,

Thank you for the hugs!

I don't think I have to hide T1 from T3. T3 knows that I will continue to talk to T1. I think she is viewing this as an unhealthy relationship, but is not seeing it as something she will make me end but is hoping to take me on a journey in therapy where I will ultimately reach a point where I want to sever ties with T1 on my own, without some ultimatum. So I won't need to hide my relationship with T1 from T3.

Its T1 who is the one suggesting I terminate with T3, so she would be the one I would need to hide it from. But really, she isn't even giving me an ultimatum. She is encouraging me to terminate with T3, but T1 did also say that she will support whatever I decide to do.
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by Lamplighter:
LG good to see you still around!

I had to pipe up here and say the following, please take it as being based entirely on my imagining how I’d feel if I were in your place and not intended as anything other than my reactions to your story.

It sounds to me like you’re getting a lot of positive things from your relationship with T1 and though there are obviously issues (I recall several times previously you’ve struggled with the nature of the relationship and felt like you should get out of it) on the whole I get the impression that there are valid emotional reasons for your wanting to maintain the relationship. So, why not?

You might well be aware of the pitfalls and the dangers and the potential that it could all end in tears (which sounds like your fear of being abandoned by her more than anything else) but if you turn yourself inside out trying to anticipate all that and still continue in the relationship, what’s the point of beating yourself up about it? T1 may well be getting her own needs met through you, but as this is no longer officially therapy, then isn’t that exactly what friends and lovers do anyway? It’s become a two way relationship and I personally don’t see anything wrong with that if you’re actually getting things you need and want yourself from T1.

Why don’t you just go for whatever it is the relationship is giving you and decide that if and when it all falls apart you’ll just deal with it then. And use it as a learning thing along the way. If you find yourself face down on the floor realizing that she couldn’t be your mother after all, so what? That’s when you can learn from it. No amount of rational discourse on how you can never undo or replace what’s been lost in the past is going to counter whatever positive feelings and meeting of needs that you are getting from this relationship now. If I were in your place I would find it very difficult (make that impossible) to reject something as positive as your relationship with T1 sounds, purely on the grounds that it’s not ‘good for me’. If it turns out to be destructive, so be it. Unless you are mostly certain NOW that it’s destructive, I don’t understand why you should be expected to cut her out of your life.

On that note I want to put in a warning about T3. No matter that she’s not openly telling you to finish with T1, she’s nevertheless made it clear that she disapproves and for her to state that the ‘goal of your therapy is to get you to stop talking and say goodbye forever’ is pretty blatant about what she expects of you, regardless of your feelings and wishes. I also find it counter therapeutic that she should be so blunt about telling you what to do with your life. And I see that’s already set up conflict and defensiveness in you. Wouldn’t it have been infinitely better for her to have understood your dilemma and fears and allowed YOU to come to whatever decision you needed to regarding T1 and supported you in that process? If the goal of your therapy is to extricate yourself from the relationship with T1, I can only hope that that is actually what you want.

It also sounds like T1 is not delivering ultimatums (yet) that you stop seeing T3, but she is understandably concerned that T3 is threatening your relationship with her. This reminds me very much of the scenario with T2 where T1 and T2 were pitted against each other (perhaps there’s something in this dynamic that feels familiar?)

I can’t help thinking that T1 saying things like this

quote:
T1 said she thinks part of the problem is that I do not allow myself to accept her love and she can help me work though that which would be more beneficial than pushing her away.


might actually hold more than a grain of truth. Lol I am probably envious because to me it’s almost like you’re getting the best of both worlds – someone who is genuinely emotionally involved with you on a real human level but who is also prepared to help you in a ‘therapeutic’ way. That is my fantasy! Sure there are lots of red flags there, but as you’ve been in this relationship outside of the official therapeutic framework for a long time now, it might be more confusing and even damaging to view it through the lens of therapy proper than it would be to take it on its own merits.

Whatever you decide about T1, I wish you all the best Smiler

LL


Hi LL,

Thank you for the thought-provoking reply!
I think you have a point...I am indeed getting a lot of positive things from T1. Its not a black and white issues and although some questionable things have taken place, I believe she has my best interest at heart.

And as you pointed out, you cannot live life in a bubble and real relationships carry risk, so why not continue to talk to T1 even with the risk of getting hurt? I guess my only hesitation about that is that I don't know that I could survive that loss. But hopefully T3 can get me to a place where I can.

I also want to say that I think I have inaccurately described the situation with T3. Although she did say that i should make the goal of therapy to say goodbye to T1, she also said that should be the goal of everyone's therapy...to ultimately be able to say goodbye forever at the end of therapy and its the therapists job to get you to a place where you can do that. She thinks T1 has failed me in that regard. T3 wants to help me with that. But she is not placing any demands on me. She said she would like to continue to talk about T1 and explore my attachment to her and understand where that is coming from and what that relationship stirs up in me.

I had been a little on the fence about T3, but I will say that she actually gained some respect from me after our conversation about T1 the other day. I was a little defensive at times, but she did a good job of not pushing me to much about it.

Your last comment about viewing the relationship as therapy may be more damaging than looking at it on its own merit was very interesting and really has me thinking. In a way, it leaves me speechless. I think you could be right about this. Right now I am very confused about what the hell this relationship is, and maybe T is confused about that as well.

We did initially discuss what this relationship will look like when she first told me she wants to continue to talk to me but will not charge me any money for it. She said she didn't know, that this is uncharted territory for her, that will will have to figure it out as we go.

But I am not really sure we have sorted it out. It is not exactly therapy, though not exactly not. It is not a friendship. It is not family. It is not lovers. Its like have this undefined relationship that we are trying to understand, on both ends. It is difficult to make sense of. But the strange thing is, LL that when I think of it as therapy, it actually feels a little better to me..less hurtful because then i can say, well of course she isn't available all the time, she's not my mom, she's my therapist and there are limitations to that. But when I think of her like a mom, like she has said I can, that is when I feel the most pain. Because if she's my mom, why is she not more available to me? Why am I not spending today with her for Mother's day? Why didn't she spend my bday with me or even get me a card? These sort of thing stir up anger in me and I feel hurt and let down by her as "a mom". But when I remind myself that she's a therapist and not really my mom, that sheds a different light on things and it doesn't hurt as much.

I don't if that makes much sense what I am saying.
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by Blanket Girl:
I think T3 sounds very sensible. And this stands out:

quote:
T3 also said, "I am not going to make you stop talking to her because what you are doing with her is not therapy so there is no issue of seeing two therapists at once, but I do think the goal of our therapy needs to be to get you to stop talking to her and say goodbye forever. I think she has you trapped in her web and this is not healthy for you"


She's not telling you to stop talking to T1. She knows you're not ready for that right now, and is willing to work with you. What I get from the above quote is that she hopes to facilitate your healing in such a way that you'll WANT to stop talking to T1 on your own, because you won't need that anymore.

I'm glad you're working this through, LG. It's good to see you here.


Hi BG,

Thanks..you summed it up well! T3 not placing demands on me and hopefully will help me sort through this so that I will someday be able to say goodbye to T1, when I am ready.
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by number9:

This all reminds me, I was reading about Japanese wabi-sabi. When something is broken or damaged, like a vase, instead of discarding the vase, it is glued/bound back together, and the cracks (damage) are painted with gold, and this damage becomes symbolic of resilient and imperfect beauty. Thought I would share this.


Number 9, I love this story you shared. Its beautiful and sweet and it made me feel a little fuzzy on the inside. T1 really did some damage when she terminated my therapy back in February, and I find myself pushing the emotions around that further down inside of me because I don't want to keep bringing it up and instead am trying to pretend it didn't happen. But maybe what I need to do is not pretend it didn't happen but instead accept that it did and see the beauty in her coming back to me and continuing to talk to me. I think she realized in that termination how strong her own attachment to me is...so that is something good that came out of something ugly.

I will have to remember this Japanese vase story from time to time when there are cracks in the relationship. Thank you.
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by yakusoku:


(((hugs)))


Thank you for the hugs, Yaku!

and you are right..having a support system here is so important, especially after having just moved. I've actually made quite a few friends here as well. I'm really trying to take good care of myself and not be so reliant on T1. Its hard though.
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by catalyst:
((LG)) what a confusing situation.

I really agree with what LL had to say about the envy stuff. Because the relationship with T1 however dysfunctional is basically a dream relationship for a lot of trauma survivors in a way. I think that makes it so much more difficult for you or anyone (T3, us, etc) to be completely detached.

In my personal opinion I think the relationship is damaging with T1, but I understand it probably feels impossible to walk away. I really like and agree with everything BG had to say and that's sort of my line of thinking too.

It is really good to see you back. And happy belated, by the way.


Thank you, Cat. And a happy belated birthday to you as well. I know you have had a rough time lately but I do hope that you were able to do something nice for yourself on your birthday.
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by scaredtoriskmyself:
LG,

I agree with what has already been said as well. I think T3 sounds very reasonable and I think continuing to see her is a good idea. In my opinion (not that you asked) it sounds like the relationship with T1 is enmeshed and unhealthy. I know how hard it is to get out of that type of situation and it feels like you might not survive if you do (sorry, I'm putting words in your mouth), but you will. You will know when you get to that point and your gut will tell you what to do and you'll stop getting arguments from your head and your heart.

An interesting read that might help you is "Narcisssism and the Psychotherapist" by Sheila Rouslin Welt and William G. Herron. Great book. It might sound familiar in many parts if you read it. I believe there is a preview on Google books.

Having just ended an enmeshed relationship with a T, I can say that there is life after the ending. There is great comfort in seeing a T who has clear boundaries and is consistent.

Good luck to you. I'm glad you posted!


THanks, STRM!

I am going to look for that book.

Something about your comment about narcissim...I cannot help thinking back to something my T1 said on Friday that was surprisingly uncharacteristic of her that has really made stop and wonder if perhaps T is a little narcisstic.

She said, "I think you will have a hard time finding someone like me (in a therapist) or the bond that we have". When she said it, it came off as a little arrogant and I was really struck by her comment. This didn't seem like something she would say and it led me to believe that perhaps in T1's mind, she is the ONLY person who can help me. And perhaps she is continuing to talk to me not out of her own needs, but intsead because she truly believes that she is the only person who can help me and feels some sort of obligation/duty to help me.

I will go look for that book. Thanks for the suggestion!
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by mia:
Reading all this LG and seeing it from the different perspectives, so it is hard to come to a conclusion as to what is best. If I were you, I could not see beyond the pull of my emotions. As someone above said, it is the dream of every childhood trauma survivor to have an openly emotionally reciprocal relationship with someone who also wants to help us heal from our childhood pain and loss.

quote:
and then T1 got upset with me for saying "when that happens again" and said that she is never going to stop talking to me, that she loves me, etc.


Gosh, I wish my T would say such a thing. The big question is whether or not the relationship it is still formally therapeutic...or has it become a regular long-distance relationship based on mutual needs and desires? If it has evolved into that, well...I guess strictly speaking it's not supposed to but as far as I'm concerned, lucky you. I'm a sucker for the notion that 'real' healing comes from 'real' relationships.

That said - and I'm so sorry if this is out of line or unhelpful to say - but presumably you are still paying for T1's time? Maybe not of course, but if so and it's no longer formally therapeutic, but now very obviously about mutual enjoyment and as much about her love for you personally as anything else, what are you paying for? If it is no longer formal therapy per se, should money be changing hands? If she is involved emotionally, then you are no longer receiving the objective service you have been paying for. I would hope that if she has been accepting your money up until now, she put a stop to that, based on her admissions and offerings and the direction things are moving in. It would bother me to still be paying for her time, in that I would suspect her motives.

Monte



Hi Monte,

Let me clarify...T1 does not charge me for her services. She doesn't want me to pay her back. She cannot have a paper trail to her because she could lose her license for treating me without a license in my state. So no money is exchanged.

I wish I were paying her, because then I would feel more comfortable pointing out ways that i sometimes don't feel cared about by her. But instead i find myself thinking to myself, "she talks to you for FREE for two hours a week, you have no right to complain about anything".
scaredtoriskmyselfscaredtoriskmyselfCo-moderator
quote:
And perhaps she is continuing to talk to me not out of her own needs, but intsead because she truly believes that she is the only person who can help me and feels some sort of obligation/duty to help me.


LG: But that IS about her needs though. It is likely something in her past or with her issues that causes her to feel that she must succeed in helping you. If you get the book this part will become more clear to you. I'm not saying she doesn't care about you, I believe she does. I do think her comment was at least somewhat grandiose. I've heard similar comments before myself.

I wish you luck with your decisions, they are tough ones to make. I think if there is any chance for the relationship to move forward and work there HAS to be a clear definition of what the relationship is. If it isn't therapy (which it can't be...and just because she isn't charging etc., I'm betting a licensing board would still view it as such given the past history), then what is it? If it is a relationship then there should be balance, a give and take on both ends. One sided relationships rarely survive.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
I have read everyone's thoughtful and insightful responses and there are a lot of good points made but I haven't seen anyone ask this question...

If T1 is not doing therapy with you and is not your therapist, and the relationship is more equal in that of friends who talk a few times a week... then....does T1 believe you no longer need therapy or a therapist?? Because if she is encouraging you or suggesting to you to terminate with T3 then who will be your therapist? T1 cannot be both friend and T.

TN
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by True North:
I have read everyone's thoughtful and insightful responses and there are a lot of good points made but I haven't seen anyone ask this question...

If T1 is not doing therapy with you and is not your therapist, and the relationship is more equal in that of friends who talk a few times a week... then....does T1 believe you no longer need therapy or a therapist?? Because if she is encouraging you or suggesting to you to terminate with T3 then who will be your therapist? T1 cannot be both friend and T.

TN


That is a good question and I think in T1's mind, she does think I need a T and she will be my T.

It's all really messy and the relationship is so ambiguous and confusing to me, TN. One day she is saying she loves me and to think of her like a mother, the next (like today) she is saying that she only cares deeply for me, but will not say that she loves me. Today was awful. I feel really confused as to why she is so hot and cold and what I did wrong to make her not love me anymore. when I told her I was upset she said, "Well can we deal with this now so that it doesn't lead to countless texts where we have to try to sort it out over texts?" and before I could answer she said, "I imagine that I will be getting texts from you saying you feel uncared about, abandoned, that I don't believe in your ability to get better, etc." and she was rolling her eyes as she said this. I feel made fun of and mocked by her. That's not really something a friend OR a T would do. So right now, she's not really either of those two categories in my mind. And she can't be my mother because she doesn't love me anymore.

I see T3 tomorrow and it cannot come soon enough.
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by mia:
Ummm...Red Face ...clearly I was not reading attentively LG...I just read the first part of your first post where you clearly state T1 no longer charges you and no longer calls your contact 'therapy'. Sorry. Red Face

I remain somewhat envious of you, even though the relationship sounds a little unpredictable and T1 a little off-center in this. I guess when partaking in any two-way relationship, there are risks and only you can work your way through the risks involved here.

Some years ago I had a quasi-parental relationship with an older couple, over the course of about 4-5 years. Initially it seemed good and healing, but I had many emerging issues and my obsessive need for them to parent me overwhelmed them and they withdrew from me when they realized my needs were beyond what they could reasonably offer. Eventually I terminated the relationship completely... painfully and bitterly. The male in the relationship would sometimes playfully refer to himself as my 'Daddy' and I held him to that, but of course he couldn't deliver. The whole thing screwed with me badly. People may have the kindest and most sincere intentions, but some times don't realize the magnitude of what they are offering.

Put your rational-hat on as much as possible as you move through this one LG.

Monte


No worries, Monte. It was a long post so it was easy to overlook that detail about the payment (or lack of).

I had a similar relationship with an older couple. Fortunately I moved away before they got tired of meeting my needs, but had I not moved, the relationship would have headed that way I think. I can imagine how difficult and painful that was for you to have to end that relationship with them, but it wounds like you are better off in the end for it.

As far as being envious of what I have with T1, don't be. Really...its an emotional roller coaster and for every "high" I have in that relationship, I have an equal low. She is not consistent and I can see how it is really damaging to me. But she gives me enough nuggets of hope that I keep coming back (and this is something she has said about my relationship with my real mom...and here I am using this to describe what T1 does...its effed up, I know).
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by BLT:
Getting mixed messages is the worst LG. It could really mess with your head. I'm glad you're seeing T3 tomorrow and I hope she can help you see you didn't do anything wrong and that you're not the crazy one in this relationship.


Thank you, BLT. I am going to ask her if she can see me on Thursday too.
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Originally posted by scaredtoriskmyself:
quote:
And perhaps she is continuing to talk to me not out of her own needs, but intsead because she truly believes that she is the only person who can help me and feels some sort of obligation/duty to help me.


LG: But that IS about her needs though. It is likely something in her past or with her issues that causes her to feel that she must succeed in helping you. If you get the book this part will become more clear to you. I'm not saying she doesn't care about you, I believe she does. I do think her comment was at least somewhat grandiose. I've heard similar comments before myself.

I wish you luck with your decisions, they are tough ones to make. I think if there is any chance for the relationship to move forward and work there HAS to be a clear definition of what the relationship is. If it isn't therapy (which it can't be...and just because she isn't charging etc., I'm betting a licensing board would still view it as such given the past history), then what is it? If it is a relationship then there should be balance, a give and take on both ends. One sided relationships rarely survive.


I think in her mind, the relationship is therapy,but it is getting muddied by her saying to think of her like a mom. She is playing with fire on that, at my expense.
ladygreyladygreyMember
Ok, so I texted T3 and asked her for a second appointment time this week and she texted back within a few mins giving me a second appointment. I really really need it this week with T1 toying with my head.

I may not really click with T3, but I am ever so grateful to have her right now. I would be up shitcreek right about now if I didn't have someone to help me work through this "rupture" or whatever you want to call it with T1 today.
scaredtoriskmyselfscaredtoriskmyselfCo-moderator
quote:
She is not consistent and I can see how it is really damaging to me. But she gives me enough nuggets of hope that I keep coming back (and this is something she has said about my relationship with my real mom...and here I am using this to describe what T1 does...its effed up, I know).


LG: I'm glad that you got another session this week. I hope it helps with all of this stuff with T1. As for the above quote, BTDT. This is what kept me going back to my oldT as well. I kept going back to her because I was trying to fix it with my mom. The problem is that I can't fix it with my mom and oldT didn't stay far enough removed from the transference to keep it from being a traumatic replay of my past and her CT made it even worse than it would have been with just my crap. I knew that is what was happening, but I lacked the ability to stop it until recently. My new T said something that I will say to you now; it is really hard to heal from something when you are still living it.

Hug two
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
As far as being envious of what I have with T1, don't be. Really...its an emotional roller coaster and for every "high" I have in that relationship, I have an equal low. She is not consistent and I can see how it is really damaging to me. But she gives me enough nuggets of hope that I keep coming back (and this is something she has said about my relationship with my real mom...and here I am using this to describe what T1 does...its effed up, I know).


LG...you said yourself that this behavior on the part of T1 is damaging to you. Please remember this and relate what you wrote above to T3 when you go see her.

I see that you asked her for a second appointment via text and she got right back to you and gave you what you asked for. I just get a really good feeling about her. I see her as knowledgeable, boundaried in the right ways and responsive and consistent. All things you need to heal and grow. And yes, the water is really being muddied by T1 in a very selfish way... you see that but you have to trust yourself and believe that you deserve better.

You know when oldT abandoned me I never ever thought I would feel the same way about any other T. It was just impossible and could never happen. Yet... even though I felt nothing for my current T I stayed with him because I needed someone who was smart and had good boundaries and was absolutely consistent to help me through the trauma. And then a strange thing began to happen. I started to really see him, and then I felt his care, and he made me laugh again, and I began to look forward to seeing him, and I was able to breathe again on my own and then he started to become important to me and now... now I can say that I am firmly attached to him and I love him. And he is really okay with that. And I'm in a much better place than I ever could have been with oldT. So I ask...where would I be now if I didn't give him a chance. A chance to help me and a chance to matter.

Please give T3 a chance.

Good luck in your sessions this week and remember you are important and need to take care of you.

TN
ladygreyladygreyMember
STRM,
That is very interesting what your T said about it being hard to heal from something when you are still living it. My T1 has told me the same thing in regards to my mother. Last year she was encouraging me to cut off contact from my mom so that I could heal. Now I find myself wondering if I need to do that with T1 so that I can heal from her.

TN,
I remember how horrific and awful it was when your T terminated your therapy....I felt so terrible for you. That was a nightmare. Yet I see what a better place you are in now, and I have to say that I am so glad that he did term with you because he only would have done more damage as time went by. You are way better off now. I'm sorry you had to go through that to get to where you are now, but I sometimes find myself wishing that my T had stuck to her guns when she termed me and forced me to move on.

I don't mean to diminish how terrible and painful that experience was for you. I could feel some of your pain without even having met you just from reading your story. So I am not sayin, "How lucky you are that you went through that!" but am more trying to say that I envy you that you have gotten out of that nightmare of a relationship with that oldT. Your story serves as hope. Now if only I could bring myself to let go of T. Maybe it has to get worse before I am ready to do that.

Today T3 said something that stopped me dead in my tracks. She said that she (t3) wonders if T2 enjoys my dependency on her. She was referring to T1 mocking me yesterday about how I would probably text her a bunch of crazy texts later that night about her not caring about me, etc. T1 was laughing and teasing me about what I would likely be texting her and sort of rolling her eyes and taking pleasure in predicting my downward spiral that would likely follow our session. When I told T3 about it, she said, "I wonder if she enjoys your dependency on her...and that is perhaps what she gets out of the relationship".

When she said that, it all made sense. My relationship with T1 always seems to work best when I am telling her how much I love her, how attached to her I am, how wonderful she is, how lucky I am to have her in my life, and that I wish she were my mother. I wonder how many other clients she has hooked on her. I actually think perhaps not many which may be why she was not able to terminate me. She needs her fix of needy, clingly, dependent client.

I feel badly for speaking about her this way but for some reason, this week I am starting to see things more clearly.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
I feel badly for speaking about her this way but for some reason, this week I am starting to see things more clearly.


Hey LG... this is a good sign.

And I know you are not diminishing anything I suffered through oldT but what did happen took away my choice (which is traumatic) yet once I recovered I ended up in a better place with my current T. I don't know how much worse things would have had to get before I walked away from him. I was so attached to him and having him see my son too just complicated things for me. I couldn't figure out how to keep my son there while taking myself to someone else. And he mishandled everything so badly. I, too, think he enjoyed my admiration and my devotion to him and the way I took such good care of him, but when he started to have deeper feelings or when he saw that I did, he ran like the coward he is. He ran and abandoned me who never hurt him and he abandoned a young child who still does not know why his T suddenly refused to see him, even to say good bye. That part does still haunt me and I don't know the effect it had on my son because he won't talk about it.

FWIW... I think T3 is right about T1.

TN
ladygreyladygreyMember
T1 told me today that she will never be my mother. That she can only care about me in a way that is different than how a mother cares about their child. I know she is right, but what hurts is that all this time she has been telling me to think of her like a mother.


She also said that she doesn't have to be talking to me but yet she does because i need to be cared about, but that she doesn't think anyone will ever love me enough to undo the damage I incurred in my childhood.

She was very clinical when she said all of this. Really, she was like a therapist which is how she should have been from the beginning. But to hear this now, after all the muddiness about this mother fantasy ...it hurts. I feel worthless, unloveable, embarrassed, rejected, ashamed...like garbage.

Lots of people like me, but nobody ever loves me. Not my mom, not my exhusband, not T1. Nobody. I'm really just not meant to be loved I guess.
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