(((LG)))

When you're surrounded by people who are incapable of giving genuine love, it's so easy to conclude that you are unlovable. I would challenge the idea though that there is such a thing as an unlovable person. There are only unloving people...people who are unskilled at giving love.

T1 hurt you terribly by leading you on the way she did. But I would contend that her lack of consistency is greater evidence of her lack of love for you than saying that she can't be your mother and can't love you enough to undo past damage. I believe she may FEEL love towards you, but her actions show she's incapable of truly GIVING you love. A good and loving therapist knows how to give love appropriately in a therapeutic way, that is, in a way that heals rather than harms.

My T has never said she loves me. She's never even said she LIKED me. And yet I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that she does love me. Not that she feels warm feelings towards me all the time (I doubt she does) or that she needs me for some reason, but that she is COMMITTED to doing what is needed to help me heal. To me, that commitment is worth more than all the affection in the entire world. To me that is one of the truest forms of love.

LG, look around at the people in your life and ask yourself who has behaved responsibly towards you. Who has consistently helped you in the most effective and appropriate fashion? Who has always supported you? Who has taken responsibility for their mistakes and done their best to repair them? Who has been there consistently through thick and thin? THOSE are the people who really love you, because they are people who are truly capable of love. The rest may feel all kinds of wonderful feelings about you, but if they're not competent at being loving, it isn't going to help one bit.

I think for you, this may actually go beyond love to belonging. You want to feel that you BELONG to someone or some group of people. Because you can be loved without having to belong. I can lovingly dispense advice to people on the internet without requiring them to become permanent fixtures in my life. I think T1 was appealing to your need to belong by telling you to think of her as a mother. But it's no good belonging to people who don't know how to love well. You might feel a little better just feeling like you belong, but such people will always hurt you more than they help. So the first step is to let go of attachments to people who can never love you in the way you need. And the second step is to find people who CAN love you properly. After you learn how to identify people who are really capable of giving love, then you'll able to find some who you also feel you belong with. And then both needs will be met. I trust that it will happen for you, sooner or later.

Beautifully said (((BLT)))!

With you (((LG)))

T1 has now told me that she does not love me, that she was only joking when she said I could claim her as my mom, that our relationship is just a therapist/client relationship, that she cannot love me because she doesn't tell me about her troubles, that the relationship is about me, and that she can care about me, but it is always going to be different than a mother's caring.

I don't know what sparked this or why she is saying all of this now. It is all healthy/normal boundary stuff...but after all that she has already said, it is hurtful.

quote:

hat she was only joking when she said I could claim her as my mom

That's fucked up.

Why would somebody joke about that? That's a new level of disrespect. I don't think she can call what you guys have a therapeutic relationship. And that's bullshit that you can't love someone because you don't tell them your troubles. My own T has said she loves me (in that therapeutic agape love way) and she doesn't tell me much. Love is a real thing and lying so someone you love them is something I'd file under immature comment said while you're drinking during a nasty divorce. Sorry to be so blunt but dude... I care about you lots and I think T1 is bananas.

Did you tell T3 any of this stuff?

I agree with everyone else. I think she's saying all this stuff now because she's afraid of being reported.

The fact is it doesn't matter how she wants to define your relationship because it's crummy either way. She has been a lousy therapist, a worse friend and a simply terrible mother. I'm so sorry that she's doing all of this to you. It's so unfair.

((LG)) So sorry that she has said this. Take care.

(((((LG))))))

dang. I agree with the others. It's just wrong for her to say that was a joke. If she feels this has gone back to this being a therapist/client relationship again, what is theraputic about her saying serious things she said was a joke?! nothing. You don't joke about that. Regardless if she wants to be your therapist or your friend, shiesh... in order for this to be a good relationship, she needs to be steady. She seems to get cold every time an outside relatioship comes into the picture and threatens the relationship between you and her. To me, she sounds really insecure. Sure, what she said might be normal healthy boundary stuff, IF she had said it and stuck with it from the get go. But to say it now, it's not about healthy boundaries. If someone has healthy boundaries as a T or a friend, they don't say things like previously saying you could claim them as your mom wasn't real. That's a really good way to sabatoge any relationship. Maybe her becoming cruel like this is more about her suddenly becoming insecure that she said that she loved you and cared about you so deeply...

I do actually think she cares very deeply about you - and that perhaps, too much so for her to be objective. You are very much loveable. T1 just has a lot of her own stuff she is bringing into the relationship.

I have had 2 friends who are T's as their day jobs, and they have never been my T, but in order for us to have two way friendship, we have to make a really intentional effort to hold certain boundaries to stay friends. Otherwise they end up putting on the therapist hat, often without realizing it, and I end up getting confused and hurt. They will actually slip into the therapist hat because they love me and care about me, not because they don't. Then one of us will realize it (usually me because I've been hurt by it before and so I'm actually jumpy about it) and back up from that.

I think she loves you, and I think she has muddied the waters very badly by being so all over the place and caught up her lack of steadily being able to manage her own stuff in the relationship with you.

quote:

she said, "Well can we deal with this now so that it doesn't lead to countless texts where we have to try to sort it out over texts?" and before I could answer she said, "I imagine that I will be getting texts from you saying you feel uncared about, abandoned, that I don't believe in your ability to get better, etc." and she was rolling her eyes as she said this.

What she said here, just cruel. Period. I think she has a lot of counter-transference going on, out of her care and love for you. If she feels like you will feel abandoned, the best way to handle it (as a T or a friend) is by being consistent, steady. Not making fun of it or light of it. She is so hot and cold, that no matter what she said, I would feel abandoned a lot just by not ever being able to know what I was going to get with her. And then I would get even more jumpy about feeling abandoned... The most healing thing for me in my own life has been when Ts and friends are steady, predictable, and there.

quote:

As far as being envious of what I have with T1, don't be. Really...its an emotional roller coaster and for every "high" I have in that relationship, I have an equal low. She is not consistent and I can see how it is really damaging to me. But she gives me enough nuggets of hope that I keep coming back (and this is something she has said about my relationship with my real mom...and here I am using this to describe what T1 does...its effed up, I know).

It's not effed up. I think it's actually not that uncommon for people to have the same dynamics that were in a relationship with a parent in another relationship as an adult. And when there is good, it is deeply hard to walk away... Oh, I so get that. And with her, the good is about really deepy vulnerable places in your heart.

I'm so glad that T3 is in the picture, and so glad she is so supportive of you, and understanding that it will take time for you to work through things to let go of T1, or whatever needs to happen that is best for you. I think you are handling this really tough situation really well. I am so sorry you have to go through this.

lots of hugs,
jd

LG - I'm so sorry. I agree that she probably does love you on some level, but she sounds very confused herself and I don't know how much of that is about she herself feeling abandoned or how much is about covering her own butt or just having a lot of issues. In any case, it's not OK to allow her own issues to turn you into some sort of attachment yoyo for her own self-worth or whatever other thing she seems to get out of it.

I don't think it's true that a therapist can't love you. I know for a fact mine does, he has said it, will probably continue to say it, and shows it through acting with utter steadiness. It is a sort of spiritual thing, but not in a generic "I have to love everybody" way; instead in a knowing me very deeply and still loving sort of way. T feels God's love for me informs his own, but in no way does he see it as being incompatible with the therapeutic relationship. He does disclose a lot, but never sharing present day troubles or in order to do anything other relate his understanding of/experience with things I have shared.

Anyway, playing and then withdrawing the mom card is just "WTF?!?" It just gives me this really "ick" manipulative feeling, like her wanting to be in control of your attachment feelings. I don't know if it's conscious or a bizarre case of completely oblivious counter-transference, but it's not therapy...at all. It's also not anything even a half-way decent mother figure would ever do. It's damaging. Right now, I feel like SHE is a joke. Sorry if that hurts to hear, because I know you love her, but we all love you and don't want to see you treated like that.

I hope you can talk to T3 about this ASAP.

Wow, LG. I can't add to anything else that has been said. T1 is just being cruel and manipulative. T3 sounds really competent, and I'm so glad you have her to help you work through this horrible stuff.

(((LG)))

I'm so sorry for what T1 is putting you through. Her comments were just nasty.

It sounds as though you have a solid relationship with T3; I hope you can talk to her about this ASAP and get some positive support.

Sending hugs and strength your way,

landa

OMG!!! LG - God knows what this woman's motivations are but she is cruel and knowing your issues and possible reactions, is just plain dangerous IMO!! How are you coping?? Are you sharing all this with T3?? I do hope so - it seems to me the most important part of your healing now is to work hard on letting go of T1!

Please take care of yourself and keep sharing with all your friends here!

(((((LG)))))

I wanted to thank everyone for the replies. I am sorry I haven't responded or even thanked you for the replies until now. Truthfully I have been in a tremendous amount of pain and am not even in a place to respond. Things are very bad. Just when I turn a corner with T, it gets a thousand times worse.

Fortunately T3 is helping me. I am worried I will get attached to her though. She is offering to available outside of session via phone to touch base throughout the week, etc. I am not wanting to take her up on that because it will grow into the same shit I've had with T1. But I know that T3 has much firmer boundaries and her offers come from a place of concern for my safety as I have confessed to her that this situation with T1 (along with my pre-existing depression) has me feeling *trigger warning* not so safe. I am struggling to keep my mind from going there but each day that T1 continues to reject me and push me away, I feel more and more unsafe. The pain is unbearable.

Thank you for caring...for listening to this never-ending T1 saga.

(((LG)))

Thanks for stopping to keep us up to date, even if it isn't the best news yet. Take care of yourself!

(((LG)))

HiLG
I don't think we've met on here although I have seen you about :-)

I just wanted to add my support. I was shocked by your T1's comments and claims to be joking. So so not on it beggars belief this woman trained to help people. It is absolutely not true that no one will love you enough - that pained me to read that.

So be gentle and kind to you. Don't worry about replying here - we all know what it's like. You gave enough to deal with. I just wanted to give you a virtual hug from another who knows the pain of believing you are unloveable. I know it'snot true for you but is another matter believing that yourself.

Hugs xx

(((((LG))))))

Wanted to send support and hugs.

quote:

I am worried I will get attached to her though.

Maybe that's okay. Maybe that's what you need to do and she sounds like she can handle it. Like you said, she has firmer boundaries.



Liese

Today T1 was 25 minutes late to our "appointment" because she was at lunch with friends. We had an argument about her not being available to me when I am feeling unsafe (which has only been twice). She yelled and screamed at me and hung up on me. I have texted her and called her and begged her to please talk to me for a few mins to resolve this. She is ignoring me.

I texted T3 and asked if I could talk to her. she called me rght away. I relayed the conversation I'd just had with T1 to T3 and T3 expressed grave concern for how I've been treated and more importantly my safety. She helped me feel a little better. Then several hours later T3 texted me asking me if I would call her this evening to check in. I said I would email her instead. She said ok. She has asked me to write her an email every day for the next few weeks while I am in a state of crisis. She assured me that I will not always feel this way (depressed, unsafe, etc) and told me that I do have a lot going for me and that I am not the worthless person that my relationship with T1 has left me feeling.

The Human Resources person at work pulled me aside today and asked me if something is bothering me because I have not seemed at all myself this week. I started crying and told her I have a therapist and apologized that it has apparently been affecting my work. She then gave me a verbal warning to keep my emotions in check. I was a little bit in shock as I thought the conversation was going to be more of a supportive conversation rather than a criticism. I left work feeling like I would just go home and end things but then went on a drive and decided to just take some anxiety meds and drink a little alcohol and hopefully pass out for the night. My heart is breaking over T1 and I can't stand feeling this way. I just want to sleep. and not feel anything.

(((((LG))))))

T3 sounds amazing. I love how much support she is giving you right now. She seems to really get it. She sounds like she knows what she is doing.

The human resources person sounds like a jerk. I can't believe she seemed to offer an ear but then after you open up to her, she turns on you. I know it's a workplace but, still, there was something manipulative about it.



Liese

Sending more support your way, LG.

I don't understand T1's behaviour at all, on any level, but T3 sounds pretty awesome. I'm so glad you felt able to reach out to her and that she responded in such a helpful and supportive way.



landa

Thank you, everyone! The past few weeks have been very difficult and I couldn't have made it without T3.

I should really rename this threat to "T3 wants me to stop talking to T1" because that is really more the case now. She thinks T1 is toxic, abusive, and has said that the relationship mimics domestically violent relationships where this is an imbalance of power that is abused. I think she is right on some levels, though I do still feel protective of T1.

Hi LG... I only have a minute but wanted to pass on something my current T told me when discussing my oldT. He said he almost wished I had seen him and oldT at the same time towards the end because it would have been easier to end with oldT as he would become less and less relevant and meaningful to me because I would respond to current T as the healthier relationship and would recognize the relationship with oldT as harmful and even abusive. He said oldT would have just faded away in my mind because he was not helping me and even harming me.

I think this may happen with you and T1 abd T3, you will come to develop a strong and healthy relationship with T3 and that will enable you to let T1 go because being in any kind of relationship with her is risky and harmful.

Hang in there with T3

TN>

I was so lucky that my crazy ex-friend who I talked about before had the audacity, after almost cutting me off and ripping me to shreds, to send me an email with a link in it to her husband giving a talk at TED. It gave me the chance to a) realize that she didn't mean anything to me anymore and I wanted nothing to do with her and b) cut her off, on MY terms. Someday you too will do that to T1 and it will feel SO GOOD. I promise!

((LG))

Glad you have T3 there for you throughout all this.

TN,

I think your T was right..it is helpful to have the new T to transition. But it is also painful at the same time as T1 pulls back.

On another note, I have fired my T3 via email. I'm such an idiot but she said something that was really triggering and made me feel as though she had not been listening to anything I've been saying. So I was quick on the draw and fired away and email politely but without a doubt firing her.

I'm such an idiot. Now I have nobody.

LG, just send another email and unfire her. I give you 95% odds she will take you right back.

((LG))
I agree with BLT, unfire her and I'm sure she will understand. Hopefully she'll also see how much she upset you and you can start again from there.

XOXO

LG,

I fired my T via voicemail once. He called me and neither one of us mentioned the firing although I still wasn't sure I was going to the session when I hung up the phone with him.

I agree with BLT and HeartAndSoul that she will take you right back. She sounds like she really wants to help you.

(((((LG))))))

LG,

I hope you can go back and talk to her about what she said that was so triggering. I think she will want to hear how it made you feel.

thinking of you,

((((((LG)))))) I'm so sorry T3 said something that made you feel like you haven't been heard. That's a hard place to be in. You really need to be heard! especially now, about all this stuff with T1. If I was trying to sort out things with a T like T1 is, I'd be quick to run too from anything that concerned me about any other T too. I think T3 is the kind of T that would understand that too... Most of all, please know, you are not completely alone in this. hugs, jd

Thinking of you (((LG))) and hoping things are improving for you!