T2. "Don't get a gay vibe"

ladygreyMember

T2 tells me today that she doesn't think I'm gay, that she doesn't get a gay vibe from me. I'm like WTF do you know? I'm bisexual and have been in relationships with both men and women, so for her to say this to me came as a bit of a shock. I guess the fact that she's a sex therapist (which makes her an "expert") sort of has me questioning my own sexuality.

I got upset with her in the session when she said this and said, "I certainly would hope you don't get a gay vibe from me because our relationship isn't sexual in nature and you shouldn't be getting any kind of vibe from me at all!"

She said I seemed pretty pissed at her. I was. Why would she be questioning my sexuality? I mean shit, I already went through that about 20 years ago. Now I have to do it again with her????

4/11/113:34 PM

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yakusokuMember

Ugh...was it even relevant in the context? It's like, "Um, I don't need your 'professional' evaluation to determine who I'm attracted to, thanks!"

4/11/114:19 PM

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ladygreyMember

quote:
Originally posted by yakusoku:
Ugh...was it even relevant in the context? It's like, "Um, I don't need your 'professional' evaluation to determine who I'm attracted to, thanks!"

The reason it came up was because she suggested telling my mom about SA when I was 8. I said I don't want my mom to know because, "She will think that's why I'm gay". T2 says, "Are you gay?" and I said, "Of course I'm gay. What do you mean, am i gay? What kind of question is that?"

She went on to say she doesn't get a gay vibe from me and when she has heard me talk about my relationships with men versus my relationships with men, she feels that there isn't the passion behind my relationships with women. My response to that was, "Well I didn't just get divorced and have my heart broken by a woman. So of course there is more passion behind my discussions surrounding my exhusband".

I got really pissed and got into an argument with her about the definition of gay. I told her that I do not like the term bisexual, that I consider myself to be a part of the gay community, and that I prefer the term "Gay".

4/11/114:29 PM

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ladygreyMember

I just sent T2 this email:

"I'm still upset about the question regarding my being gay. It feels ridiculous to me that I am having to put energy into "proving" my gayness in my own therapy. I've identified as gay since I was in the 5th grade. There is absolutely no question in my mind that I am sexually attracted to women. With regard to sexual orientation, the ONLY thing I've ever questioned is whether or not I am sexually attracted to men, but it has never been a question when it comes to sexual attraction to women. I've been rejected by the straight community when I've been in gay relationships and I've been rejected by the gay community when I've been in heterosexual relationships but in either scenario, I'm still the same person...and that person is GAY!!!

Sorry, but I get a bit worked up over the implication that bisexual people are simply confused and are either homosexuals living in denial or straight people who've been sexually abused. I am not confused about my attraction to women. Maybe your gaydar is broken."

4/11/114:31 PM

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ladygreyMember

quote:
Originally posted by deepfried:
(((hugs)))

LG - sorry if I made you upset by saying you aren't gay - I'll move that part of my post. I think sexuality is on a continuum and I didn't mean to make you feel rejected in anyway.

Oh, no worries, hun. I didn't take offense to it. I know that the word "gay" means different things to different people. I am upset with T2 because it was as though she was saying she doesn't think I'm really attracted to women at all.

4/11/114:36 PM

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janedoeMember

I’m on the heterosexual side of the spectrum and I am trying to imagine someone coming up and saying they don’t get a straight vibe from me - and if they were a sex expert, yeah, I’d be mixed up.

(stuff deleted for personal reasons, just me and my stuff)

We are native to ourselves. Our Ts get to know us, while we live in ourselves our whole lives. Our Ts can give us feedback and advice and direction and have a lot of knowledge about how the mind works and stuff. But your T jumped in on this so fast. Like if she doesn't get some non-descript "vibe" from you, then oh, your sexuality is in question...? Surely she didn't think this one through and she can't believe she knows your sexuality better than you do. T's are trained to not ignore their gut feelings, but yet to keep in mind their gut feelings could be wrong.

4/11/115:14 PM

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ladygreyMember

JD,

I need to clarify...I am the one who said, "I certainly hope you don't get a gay vibe from me because our relationship isn't sexual in nature". Sorry if that was confusing.

I'm sorry you are triggered by this too. I think there is just something so frightening about the idea that our Ts think they know us better than we know our own selves. It gives them wayyyyyyyy too much power to have them thinking this.

4/11/115:23 PM

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yakusokuMember

I would have felt like I need to validate myself to T if she said something like that. I've had enough relationships where I have to "prove" what I say is true and have been forced to question my own reality. I don't need T doing that. ((((((LG))))))) I'm glad you followed up with how you felt and I hope T2 will clarify and apologize where appropriate.

4/11/115:24 PM

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ladygreyMember

Do ya'll think I was too harsh in my email to her? Now I'm worried I've pissed her off.

4/11/115:26 PM

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jonesMember

LG, a couple of people said that to me when I was younger and mostly dating women. It pissed me off enormously for all the reasons you're saying. These days I find I'm generally not romantically attracted to women. I don't know why it changed for me, but it did. That means nothing about your situation or what will happen for you. But looking back I know it was right for me to be just where I was at the time. I hope you can know that feeling okay about yourself and where you are is not contingent on what happens in the future, and I hope your T knows that too. Right now you feel the way you do, and it's real.

*edit - I say this not because I think the same thing will happen to you, but because I used to feel almost scared hearing that that I would lose part of my identity. I'm saying that even if things *did* change for you, and they very well may not, you are still who you are now.

Jones

4/11/119:17 PM

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scaredtoriskmyselfCo-moderator

(((LG)))

4/11/119:37 PM

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lamplighterMember

Hi LG

I'm sorry your T's comments have sent you into this place, and I hope that by now you'll have had a (positive) reply to your email. Though I understand how T’s comments must be making you feel, can I step back a bit and make some global comments about what I’ve been picking up generally about your situation with your two Ts?

I’m wondering whether because of what’s been going on with your two Ts lately, this push pull thing about feeling pressured to choose just one T to work with, your recent dream (which was really to the point and clear I thought) and your rapidly alternating feelings between sessions, maybe it’s that you’re feeling an undercurrent of ongoing anger – especially at T2 – that is affecting how you are responding to things she says in sessions.

At least that’s what happens to me, that if I’m in a state of low level previously unacknowledged anger at T (lol which is usually pretty constant) I find that she’ll say something that registers with me and then starts to rankle and that after session that’s about all I end up focusing on – really getting myself uptight about it and defensive and openly angry so that it becomes like proof of her deserving my anger. Inevitably when I talk about it with her (more to the point, when I go in all defensive and annoyed about it and we then talk about it) it becomes apparent to me that I’m actually looking for something to justify my feeling angry at her, some concrete thing to hang my anger on. I can’t really say that that’s what’s going on for you obviously, but it has struck me that you are feeling generally pretty stressed about the situation with your two Ts at the moment, and maybe it would be worth looking at this possibility in order to see if something isn’t going on in your feelings and thoughts that would be better directly addressed with T2? If only to pre-empt potential ruptures...

Sorry if I’m putting something to you that isn’t there, it’s just something that struck me that you might consider thinking about (or tossing out if it’s totally irrelevant...)

LL

4/12/112:09 PM

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ladygreyMember

quote:
Originally posted by Jones:
LG, a couple of people said that to me when I was younger and mostly dating women. It pissed me off enormously for all the reasons you're saying. These days I find I'm generally not romantically attracted to women. I don't know why it changed for me, but it did. That means nothing about your situation or what will happen for you. But looking back I know it was right for me to be just where I was at the time. I hope you can know that feeling okay about yourself and where you are is not contingent on what happens in the future, and I hope your T knows that too. Right now you feel the way you do, and it's real.

*edit - I say this not because I think the same thing will happen to you, but because I used to feel almost scared hearing that that I would lose part of my identity. I'm saying that even if things *did* change for you, and they very well may not, you are still who you are now.

Jones

Jones,

Its interesting that you mention that you feared losing a part of your identity. I think that is perhaps what has me so angry with T2 right now. I used to date women exclusively but then about 10 years ago I started dating men exclusively. Its not that I am no longer attracted to women, but I just haven't found one that I've wanted to be in a relationship with in the past 10 years. In a sense, during that time it did feel like I had lost part of my identity. Since my divorce I've been reclaiming my part in the gay community even though I haven't dated a woman for 10 years. To have T2 of all people say that she doesn't think I'm gay was sort of a slap in the face....like she was denying me the right to even call myself gay or associate myself with the gay community. I felt like, "Hello, this is MY therapy and you should be supporting my feelings and encouraging me to be more centered within myself!"

I was so appalled that she was challenging my own sexuality.

4/12/114:30 PM

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ladygreyMember

quote:
Originally posted by Lamplighter:
Hi LG

I'm sorry your T's comments have sent you into this place, and I hope that by now you'll have had a (positive) reply to your email. Though I understand how T’s comments must be making you feel, can I step back a bit and make some global comments about what I’ve been picking up generally about your situation with your two Ts?

I’m wondering whether because of what’s been going on with your two Ts lately, this push pull thing about feeling pressured to choose just one T to work with, your recent dream (which was really to the point and clear I thought) and your rapidly alternating feelings between sessions, maybe it’s that you’re feeling an undercurrent of ongoing anger – especially at T2 – that is affecting how you are responding to things she says in sessions.

At least that’s what happens to me, that if I’m in a state of low level previously unacknowledged anger at T (lol which is usually pretty constant) I find that she’ll say something that registers with me and then starts to rankle and that after session that’s about all I end up focusing on – really getting myself uptight about it and defensive and openly angry so that it becomes like proof of her deserving my anger. Inevitably when I talk about it with her (more to the point, when I go in all defensive and annoyed about it and we then talk about it) it becomes apparent to me that I’m actually looking for something to justify my feeling angry at her, some concrete thing to hang my anger on. I can’t really say that that’s what’s going on for you obviously, but it has struck me that you are feeling generally pretty stressed about the situation with your two Ts at the moment, and maybe it would be worth looking at this possibility in order to see if something isn’t going on in your feelings and thoughts that would be better directly addressed with T2? If only to pre-empt potential ruptures...

Sorry if I’m putting something to you that isn’t there, it’s just something that struck me that you might consider thinking about (or tossing out if it’s totally irrelevant...)

LL

LL,

I have not heard back from T2 yet and I even sent her a brief email saying I was sorry for the email I sent yesterday. I'm a bit offended that she hasn't reached out to say something to me by now.

Anyway, I think you are onto something with your analysis of the dynamic between me and T2 lately, especially in light of my recent dream. I feel myself forming an attachment to her...and I resent her for that. I want to resist it, I want to push her away. So when things like this gay comment come up, perhaps I latch onto it and run with it as a means of letting out my anger towards her for getting me to feel attached to her.

Lately in therapy I have been getting cold. She has gotten up from her chair and grabbed a blanket for me and she comes over to where I am sitting and unfolds the blanket and lays it out over me. When she does that, I have felt immense feelings of warmth and comfort. In those moments I realized that I am forming an attachment to her. and now looking back at my therapy sessions, I can also see that I picked fights with her shortly after she draped the blanket over me. Hmm. I can't help but think there is a correlation to that now that I look back.

You've given me a lot to think about. THank you for your reply and insight!

4/12/114:34 PM

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ladygreyMember

quote:
Originally posted by deepfried:
not yet!?

I've been stalking this thread all day waiting to find out what she possibly is going to say to fix this huge snafu.

My DBT T does the blanket thing too I love it very safe. I can see how that would give you warm fuzzies.

I'm really interested in what you're thinking here between you and LL... very interesting. Anger is good sometimes, it shows a level of intimacy to be able to get mad at someone... Anyway... I hope you hear back from her and I get how you can be feeling offended right now that she hasn't bothered to get back to you yet! Do you see her tomorrow?

I don't see her until Thursday. I'm totally upset that she hasn't replied. I feel like she is doing it intentionally to upset me. Like some sort of test.

4/12/115:34 PM

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ladygreyMember

quick update. i sent T2 a short email last night saying that I don't feel good when I don't get a reply, that this is what my mother does when she is punishing me (not replying to emails) and that it causes a lot of distress for me.

She wrote back saying "please don't be worried, I am not upset by what you wrote. I think we should process this in your therapy. I would have written a reply but the day got away from me. I look forward to seeing you tomorrow. Remember, you have a trip to plan! Don't worry about this. "

I have an emergency session scheduled with T1 today to talk about how upset I get with T2 when she doesn't reply.

4/13/1110:20 AM

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yakusokuMember

I'm glad you got a reply and you are going to be able to process your hurt feelings. I hope you save some of that processing for T2, though. I notice that when I tend to process my hurt with someone other than the person the rupture occurred with, it becomes lighter and the depth of the event isn't really addressed directly with the person when it does come up. Then, that same issue tends to reoccur repeatedly, because they have never been able to experience how "big" it really is for me, since I make it smaller with someone else before I approach them. I don't know if this happens with you, because you have a different temperament than mine, but something to consider.

4/13/111:37 PM

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ladygreyMember

That is a good point, Yaku.

I do plan to process some of this with T2 tomorrow, but it helped me to work on some of it with T1 today. Its just too scary for me to go into therapy with T2 and talk about trust and attachment without having worked through some of it with T1 first, as trust is my core issue.

I guess what I am saying is that the issue was TOO raw for me to walk into therapy tomorrow with T2 and discuss. But now I feel a little safer having spoken to T1 about it.

4/13/111:48 PM

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yakusokuMember

I totally get that and I don't think you avoid conflict anywhere near the extreme that I do, so it may not be remotely relevant in your case. It's often helpful to talk something over with a third party. My problem is that I lose all depth doing it. Sometimes I will even completely discharge and then not "need" to deal with it. So, I am trying to learn to "save some," as I said.

4/13/112:20 PM

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scaredtoriskmyselfCo-moderator

LG,

I'm glad that she wrote back as well and that you sent her another email to tell her how the lack of response was affecting you.

I just talked to T today about how annoyed I am that it seems that right after I've felt really close to her that shortly thereafter we end up with some sort of push away scenario. It frustrates me so much!! Sounds like this might be happening with you as well with the blanket thing.

Hope your session goes well tomorrow.

4/13/118:12 PM

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ladygreyMember

Met with T2 today. We around and around about this gay thing. She said she is always going to point out inconsistencies she sees in me. I said that being bisexual is not an inconsistency. She said she agrees but that she questions my use of the term "gay" which she feels only applies to homosexuals and not bisexuals. I then said, "Well I don't go to bisexual pride. I go to GAY pride. You don't hear about bisexuals in the military. You hear about GAYS in the military. Its not bisexual rights or bisexual marriage...its GAY rights and GAY marriage. GAY is an all-encompassing term and its a term that I use to identify myself. Who are you to say what term is appropriate for me to identify with?!"

She continued to defend her stance of questioning me about this. I continued to be pissed off. So basically we got nowhere with this.

4/14/113:29 PM

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yakusokuMember

I don't see why T2 couldn't just say, "Oh, well this is just an issue of semantics. If that is the way you mean 'gay,' than I was just misunderstanding, because I have a different definition for it." Then, she could have explored how you felt about it and let go of her need to control the definition. Blah. I think that would have been more useful, even to her knowledge of you, than fight over something that is obviously a matter of definition (and one that is VERY important to you). I doubt HER definition is so personally important to her that it is necessary to combat yours. And even if it is PERSONALLY important to her (rather than professionally important to distinguish), her personal stuff should not enter the room. Why could she not just say, "OK, when you use the term 'gay,' I will know that you mean you are a part of that community, even though you are attracted to both women and men...and that it is hurtful to feel excluded from it." GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. (((((((((LG))))))))))