Thanks so much for writing this TN! I couldn't agree more, except that not all T's who understand attachment are analytically trained (You probably didn't mean to say that anyway, just putting it out there!) T's who really understand this stuff and know how to deal with it do seem to be few and far between.

It's a bit overwhelming for my to think that T and I could be attached forever, but on the other hand, I wouldn't really want it otherwise. We do have tons of conflict around dependency in our relationship, but all of it is on my side. Today, after dialing three times and hanging up, I finally managed to leave a message saying half of me wanted to apologize in advance for leaving a message, and the other half wanted a call back! She called me back this afternoon, but I was too paralyzed to answer the phone! She left a message to apologize for being busy all day and to say she would could back after her last client if I wanted. I sat there trying to figure out what to do and whether I would be able to answer the phone the second time! Then five minutes later she called again and I managed to pick up. She said her other client was stuck in traffic and she had ten minutes. I kind of went "blergh" and laughed a bit and told her I was fine but too conflicted to say anything. She said she was glad I had called anyway and it was fine if I just needed to know she was on the other end of the phone, and then asked if there was anything I was needing from her. At that point I apologized for being ridiculous, but was able to confess I'd called initially to ask if she had anything open today but obviously that wasn't going to happen. She then offered to fit me in on Monday or email her if I needed to. I said I'd let the opposing forces battle it out and whichever one won would email her. She seemed amused but said that was fine and we both hung up.

I think she deserves some kind of medal or something. Anyway sorry to threadjack like that, it's just your conversation seemed to be related in a way.

This stuff sounds almost exactly verbatim what my own T has said, except it was in a conversation about fear of how things end and not specifically labeled as an attachment/dependency conversation. He said just the same things, except for a lot of it was targeted right at him and I, the "us" relationship, at the time. It does really help to hear other Ts saying the same thing. Thanks so much for sharing. I can hear your love for your T and it reminds me how I feel about my own (well, except when I am like, "Eeew, WTF? When did I get attached. $#!+, back the F--- off!" which happens from time to time).

TN!

I love you for this! I think you are and your T are so amazing and inspirational. I hope you don't mind, but I am going to be using your post here as a topic starter in my next session with T.

I think my T and I really had a significant misunderstanding in relation to attachment/dependency. What she expressed yesterday in session was very similar to what your T said here. I think I ran off the tracks with something, and had a very hurt childish overly dramatic reaction(my thoughts, words) NOT T's. She said it's normal for me to feel these things and she accepts them. AND of course, I am going to grow very attached and dependent on her being there.

I specifically asked T IF she is okay that I have strong feelings for her and that I miss her, and think of her as one of the most important people in my life. She said "I'd be worried if you didn't feel any of those things." She then told me that it works both ways, and that she carries her clients in her heart, too. It made me feel good.

I love how warm your T is. It's very sweet. You are very lucky.

AND we are very lucky to have you here with us. Thank you again.

Wow, you guys are all so amazing. I am new on here and have posted a couple of times, but don't feel I know all your stories well enough to comment specifically. I think you guys are amazing because you can put into words your feelings and thoughts about your T's in such open ways. I just could never talk to or even talk about my T, the way it seems most people on here do. I would love to be able to tell my T how I feel about her, but that scares me so much. I can't even write it on here. It seems way too intense to me. This is probably why I seem to get stuck in the same place all the freaking time. I am so tired of it. I want to be able to talk like you guys. I am a coward.

Thank you for sharing that TN! I love that! What a great T you have! I love his thoughts on the attachment between T and client. I think this is how my T thinks. She always says her door is open and has never mentioned a timetable for me leaving.

I'm about to go to school to train to be a T. During the interview for school the prof. was impressed that I had been a client already and that I had done some reading on therapy. She said that she doesn't see too many people apply to the program that are clients. I was shocked to hear that!

Thanks TN. Your post is exactly what my T says, believes and does. It is such a relief that she is leading the way for me, altho I am very resistant.

Somedays

Thanks TN for posting this part of your session. Interesting stuff and the way your T talks it must inspire a lot of confidence in you .

What you’ve said also points up something about attachment that I suspect becomes confusing – the idea that we somehow get ourselves attached, but with the end goal of becoming ‘unattached’ as part of growth. Which maybe suggests a confusion between attachment and dependent. How your T explains it makes a lot of sense, and I’m guessing he means that the emotional attachment remains forever, even if the physical connection is no longer in place. I like that he is clear that he will always be available and that the end of therapy is not the end of all contact. It must be very secure making to know that he would be there even just for periodic touch-base contact.

quote:

Dependency is a natural developmental stage and if you miss it in childhood you need to reexperience it in therapy.

This one still strikes fear into my heart! I wonder if it’s possible to become attached without needing to be dependent? Something I have yet to work out.

quote:

I hope he realizes now that he is stuck with me forever! I adore him.

What can I say except smile happily for you.

LL

xoxo,
Thank you, I think you are making a lot of important points about dependency and it's place in pscyhotherapy that provide clarity to the very important principles TN was outlining.

My T allowing dependency in therapy, like yours, has been important to my healing and my T, like your P, only does once a week appointments (on rare occasions in crisis I have seen twice in one week; it's happened maybe twice since I've worked with him). He does allow contact in between appointments for me which I have found very helpful while your T has seen it as more helpful not to allow that. You make an excellent point that we are not clones and because of that what we require to heal will vary from person to person and one person's cure can be another person's poison.

If our therapist does not work a certain way, it is very important that you feel free to talk to your therapist about why they do or do not allow something. If they remain non-defensive about discussing why they are doing something and why they believe it is the best thing for your well-being, then trusting your T can be very important. Not all the boundaries that are done for our benefit are enjoyable or comfortable. There is often pain, and sometimes a close to unbearable amount of pain, in healing even when everyone is doing what they are supposed to.

quote:

but it is not the same as being a child again and having the opportunity to grow up again. The therapeutic relationship is similar to reparenting, but it is not the same.

This especially struck me, as I have also gone through a lot of pain involving my dependency on my T and my longing for more of a relationship. Facing up to the childhood losses that are beyond repair, the longings that are no longer possible to fulfill and giving up finding that perfect parent has been a very long, difficult struggle. One in which I find myself engaged again. I have had to go to the center of that grief not once, but many times as I work through letting go.

I have also struggled with the obsessive aspect of his looming so large in my life and that has also been very painful at times.

My T has made it clear that our attachment is a permanent thing, but my dependency is something to work through and leave behind. Because of the healing I have done with him and how he has changed me, he will always be a central figure in my life. But right now I find myself caught between the pain I experience when I am away of missing him and the pain I experience when I move in closer because I cannot know him fully and he remains my therapist. This is all my long way of saying that I very much agree with what TN said about dependency and that my experience has borne out the truth of what you said.

Last, but very much not least, I am so sorry for what you are facing in leaving your P. It has always been obvious from your posts that you have had a very deep, healing therapeutic bond with your P and he sounds like a very gifted healer. I find it heartbreaking that you are being forced to leave him, although I was glad to see that you will continue to have him as your therapist. I understand that you would choose to do it all again, despite the pain, because I would do so also. I wish there was a way to ease your pain.

AG

quote:

This especially struck me, as I have also gone through a lot of pain involving my dependency on my T and my longing for more of a relationship. Facing up to the childhood losses that are beyond repair, the longings that are no longer possible to fulfill and giving up finding that perfect parent has been a very long, difficult struggle. One in which I find myself engaged again. I have had to go to the center of that grief not once, but many times as I work through letting go

Ouch, yes, very very painful for me right now. Tears a millions.

Loved this post TN.

(((xoxo)))


I agree we're not all clones. I wish I knew or had the power of intuiting what would work better for one person or another. In my case, I have actually found that increase in number of sessions and amount of contact allowed my dependency to decrease, even as my sense of attachment increased. I am more functional and less anxious, less obsessive, from the extra contact. I wonder how a T gets to the point of telling when certain interventions would be more beneficial for one client vs. another. It is still hard. We still miss him terribly at times and use him as a secure base when hard stuff happens on days off...but, I am finding myself slowly more engaged in my life in a way I haven't been since the more recent trauma that brought me to therapy in the first place. Allowing the attachment and slowly learning to not abhor needing another person has me branching out into other relationships in ways I never have, engaging in other activities, and slowly resuming ones that became overwhelming to me in the early months of therapy. I know there will be more valleys ahead, but I am starting to see, I think, an upward trajectory and I know it is partly thanks to my T's acceptance of the attachment and patient building of safety and trust. I have thought about what if I had never started...but it feels to sad to think of not knowing him and not knowing myself the way I am starting to.

What an interesting discussion. I've been thinking that the way dependence shakes out in therapy probably has a lot do do without the client's particular attachment style and behaviors. There are those of us who spent most of our lives strongly resisting depending on anyone and becoming very independent and competent in various areas. Then there are those of us who went the other way and tried to depend on other people to the exclusion of developing our own capacities. Since I fall into the first camp largely, my T has put a lot of effort into convincing me that it's OK to rely on her and get support from her even if it's not always utter dire need. For those in the second camp though, they might need an extra push sometimes from their T's to get out there and do more things for themselves. In either case the goal is balance. In either case, it's not an easy process!

I am a bit confused about this attachment/dependency stuff.

I feel a strong attachment to T and I have been wanting to ask her if we can meet twice a week. I think if I had more encouragement and didn't have to wait as long between sessions, I would feel a bit more balanced and find it easier to cope.

On the one hand, T mentioned last session that if this attachment starts to get in the way of the work we are trying to do, then we should talk about meeting less frequently. It makes sense to think that this might lessen the pain eventually, but right now I think it would be hugely detrimental to my emotional health.

I guess I will have to ask T more about this when I see her again since it is all I can think about lately.

quote:

On the one hand, T mentioned last session that if this attachment starts to get in the way of the work we are trying to do, then we should talk about meeting less frequently.

Oh Coco... in my opinion, your T has is wrong. I think if she cuts you back you will become more clingy and dependent and need more contact. It may destabilize the relationship too. It certainly does not help forge an attachment when you are denied what you need, which is the presence of an attachment figure in your life, who is reliable and consistent. This is what most of us missed out on as children. I see my T twice a week. At some point when I am ready we will go back to once per week. Right now I need this arrangement and it certainly cuts down on the between session contact.

xoxo... thanks for joining the discussion and for elaborating and expanding on the topic. I am truly sad that you have to move away from your P who you have such a wonderful relationship with. I can imagine the pain and grief you are experiencing as you physically part from him ... at least for now. I am glad to hear that you will keep in contact with him though. I wish you all the best in your move and in your new job. I think you are very brave to do this.

To everyone else to joined in here. I'm glad to see you and, again, this was a conversation between my T and I. I am not saying it must be this way for everyone. In fact, my T tells me that he has clients who could care less about attaching to him. They are not there for that reason. Maybe they are only doing counseling with him not depth psychodynamic therapy like I am. They don't need the attachment and when they are done they leave and there is very little angst involved. I just wanted to share his thoughts on attachment and how it fits with what I personally need in a T.

The interesting part of this is that since we have had these talks about attachment and what he thinks about it and how he feels about dependency... me leaving... me staying...the timetable and how he is accepting of my affection and attachment.... well.... I don't obsess over it anymore. It does not cause very much anxiety and I am checking in less and less to ask if he is there or if we are okay. I do check in for other reasons via email but our relationship does not cause me anxiety because I'm not wondering what is in his head. He has told me.

I need to run now... bedtime for my son. I hope to return here to continue with the conversation.

Thanks all,
TN

(((((TN)))))

Thanks for sharing the conversation with your T. He really sounds lovely and, of course, I love the way he sees things.

I try to be accepting of dependency. It hurts so much to have a T who is not accepting of your dependency needs. I know because I've been there. I was actually beating myself up about a year ago for having dependency needs and as my T says, he was helping me do that. That's why I am supportive of dependency when someone here complains about needing more contact with their T but being told they can't have it for one reason or another.

My T was like yours, xoxo, and didn't believe in more than one session a week but it really did cause me to become more clingy and needy. I found that seeing my T twice a week really helped cut down on the longings so much so that I don't feel those feelings anymore. It's such a relief.

I had even been calling him once a week in between sessions and haven't had to do that in about two months. So, actually my contact with him went from 3 times a week to twice a week. I will at some point go back to once a week also but need things to stay the way they are right now. He told me that I have surprised him, that he didn't expect me to become more independent as a result of accepting my dependency but I know he was pleasantly surprised it happened that way.


((((XOXO))))

I'm sorry though that you have to move so far away from your T and for the pain you feel. Will you be having sessions via skype? I know someonee who does that after having been in the same town as their T. It's hard sometimes but it works. And then there are the actual visits every so often that help to keep that connection. Will you be able to return home every now and again?

TN, xoxo:

Thanks for your input. I have to say TN's response that my T might have it wrong really terrified me. I can't stand to think that I might have chosen someone who doesn't know what she's doing. And I hate the thought of trying to find someone else if she doesn't know what she's doing.

But, from xoxo's post, maybe she does know what she's doing and maybe she is really thinking about what would be best for me. Except that I still think I would be devastated if we had to cut down on sessions right now. I think I would feel more balanced and that would eventually lead to feeling better in general if I could see her more often.

It is hard not to compare myself and my T with everyone else on this forum and their Ts. But it's great to know that I am not the only one struggling with this. The hardest part is actually talking to T about it! Which of course is the most important. I need to get this cleared up because it is tearing me up inside.

Coco

I think the *only* important thing is that your T listens to you, you feel comfortable talking about all issues and that you both work together as a team. If you need a flexible T and your T isn't flexible - there can be a problem. If you need a certain type of T - and your T isn't the right one - then there is a problem. etc etc.

I can only speak for myself - I need a T who is flexible, who offers a range of therapy styles, who welcomes attachment, dependency, allows outside contact etc etc. My T is my T-SOUL-MATE. she offers everything I need and more.

also - we are all different on this forum - some of us have BPD, Bipolar, DID, etc - so that is always forgotten when people post unless you know that person. maybe it would help if we all had a signature that put our labels?? Not sure about that. But what I am saying is that I have BPD and some very resistant and difficult issues and behaviours. Those of us that SH or SU - our T's probably offer an entirely different range of 'services' to someone who has different issues.

So we aren't always the same and our T's offer different skills, experiences and techniques. it is difficult not to compare, but we shouldn't. If reading this thread and others - pricks up some issues for you ie you read that some T's offer somethings that you want or need - then the main issue is that you feel comfortable enough to bring it up.

I am lucky that my T is placid, easy going and incredibly flexible. She makes it easy for me to bring up difficult issues.

Hope this helps
Somedays

Somedays

You are right. We are all different on here and have different needs, so comparing myself to others is probably not a good idea.

You are also right about the importance of being able to talk to my T and her listening to me. This is something that is hard for me, not because I don't trust my T, but because I don't trust myself to say what I want/need accurately and directly. I haven't really given her a chance to tell me if she can be what I need her to be.

Thanks for the insight. Next session I am going to try harder to express my needs.

((((XOXO))))

So glad that you will actually be able to get to see your T in person at least twice a month. That's great.

quote:

(and i think he sorta sux on the phone too).

That's interesting that your T sees some patients more than once a week. I didn't know that. I thought he had a blanket policy.

Just wondering if the T you experienced that heavy transference with was accepting of your feelings. I ask that because the turning point for me, as far as the longings decreasing, came when my T became more accepting. It was, in my case, the lack of verbal communication and my reliance on the nonverbal communication that was exascerbating my transference. Those things turned me into an 11 year old girl. Interestingly, we talked about that specific thing in my session today. My T wasn't communicating certain things with me because he thought I was too fragile and he was worried I would leave therapy. In a sense, he was treating me like a child. And I did feel very powerless then. I compared it to the lack of communication in my FOO. And how childish I often was because I didn't understand what my mother was doing except that it always felt like she trying to control me.

The comments you made about dependency are interesting to me because I have trouble understanding dependency issues. In what way would dependency be difficult for trauma survivors? And are you only talking in cases where people see their T's 4-5 times a week? Also, how is dependency unhealthy, as long as the more powerful party in the relationship (e.g. a therapist) is respectful of boundaries and conscious of the power differential, etc.? I'm guessing you will say it's because each and every one of us deserves to be fully known and to know fully and to have all our needs met and to meet the other's needs as well. You know, mutuality and reciprocity, the type of thing that doesn't exist in my life right now. I can't tolerate the demands of a reciprocal relationship right now so unfortunately the therapeutic relationship is the right fit for right now. I shouldn't say unfortunately because I am very happy with that relationship and am so thankful for it. But you know what I mean. It has to be this way for me now and I have to accept it.

But my issues might be different in that it was the inaccessibility or feeling like my T was inaccessible that contributed to my pain and heightened the longings. I really know now that I can reach out to him anytime I want, with the exception of his vacations, and that he will get back to me. He has not, even once, failed me in that way as long as I ask for a return phone call. At this point, I'm feeling "good" enough so that if he DID fail me in that regard, I would know that it was because something happened that prevented him from getting back to me and it's NOT because he hates me or wishes I would go away. That part of me that has really calmed down knowing and believing and experiencing that. And it's that feeling has enabled me to be more independent. Not that I'm Miss Independent by any stretch of the imagination but I'm doing better than I was.

I guess this is in contrast to what you are saying about yourself? That it is the desire and need itself to be dependent?

A woman who had very painful transference with a T wrote an article on transference. She said that the reason why the relationship is so good is that it's always like being on your honeymoon. We're not sharing the day to day with our T's. If we did, we might actually get bored or disgusted with them. So, I'm going to fantasize a little here and ask why couldn't we apply that logic to our relationships with our significant others if we have one? Have two separate homes (okay okay if we didn't have any money worries) and just see each other for an hour or two a week. That might really keep things fresh and alive.

quote:

No amount of sessions would ever be enough for me because for one, I associate closeness with love. I want to be close to him in every way.

Awww. Me too. I know how hard this is. I still want to be close to my T in every way too but it doesn't hurt AS much that I can't. It still hurts, sometimes more than others, but the pain is subsiding along with the longings.

(((((XOXO)))))

When do you move?



Liese

Thank you tn. This is just perfect for me to read. I would imagine my t saying the same thingu

TN, today my T warned me that she might be getting new furniture and it made me think of you. I *think* I'll be OK with it...just as long as she doesn't get leather She actually asked my opinion on how she should lay things out and I told her I'd draw her a floor plan I should totally draw something with hammocks, bean bags, and a pit of fluffy toys.

BLT - If I could redesign my T's offices, I would have a "hiding" screen in each. Like a little corner behind a screen that I could retreat into to just not be seen when I need it. I think you should add that to the floorplan. It can have a beanbag in it and a blanket for comfort. Ooh, or maybe just a fort instead?

That's amazing, Yaku. Kind of like a blanket fort behind the couch??

Hi BLT... yikes new furniture

I am glad your T warned you ahead of time and that she asked for your input. I think that really helps because it makes you feel like your thoughts and opinions really matter. My T did warn me about his chairs but not the redecoration of the reception room. I truly hate his chairs and even after months of seeing them in there I still hate them and won't sit in them unless I have something to cover it up.

Can you tell me why you don't like leather either? I have really been working hard to figure this out in my case. I have a few working theories but nothing feels like it fits exactly. Maybe it's just a combination of things.

Yaku... the hiding screen sounds great to me. I usually just hide under my blanket.

TN

You know TN, I am OK with leather generally, but I don't really think it's cozy enough for T furniture. Also I might slide around too much on it and not feel very grounded. I dunno...