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I wanted to share something with you all about love in therapy. Because this topic has been in the front of my mind lately and because I wanted to write my T a special Christmas letter, I decided to go back and re-read my journal for 2012. What I found surprised me because I sort of forgot the conversation we had in March about love.

I'm going to copy what my T said here. I was worried and nervous about telling him how I feel about him but I think I found my own answer about how he would react to my Christmas letter in my journal.

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He said that when you work closely and for a long time with someone, when they allow you into their lives and share so much of themselves with you and you are there to support and take care of them in this intimate relationship then love will happen if you are doing it right. So I said, you mean like an agape love and he said, love is love, he does not classify it. So I said how would you feel? and he said that he believes if someone comes to love you through therapy it's the greatest gift ever. It's a very precious gift they give you and he welcomes it. He said that this is why you do this work. This means everything... oh the money is okay, that's fine but THIS means so much more and it's what keeps you doing this work. That was really profound to hear from him. I know he has previously talked about some of this with me but maybe I just needed to hear it again. He was then interested in the various kinds of love, as described by the Greeks and so I told him about the ones I could remember and he asked me to bring something in about it so we can discuss it!

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And then a few weeks later we had the following conversation about attachment:

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As part of my session yesterday I spoke with my T about attachment and dependency for a few minutes. I told him how so many struggle with this including Ts and how many were afraid of the client becoming dependent and how they talk about the client needing to become independent or unattaching themselves or detaching themselves from the T.

What my T said is his opinion and his way of working and thinking on this issue. I'm not saying it's perfect but it's working for us. He said that he hopes I NEVER detach from him. I had asked him if there is a certain point where I should be able to detach and stop needing him. He said it's not about unattaching or detaching and he has no timetable for this. He said we are on MY timetable and that when I'm more secure I will need him less (maybe need to see him less often) but that we will be attached forever.

He said the closest comparison is the parent-child relationship and how the child needs to be dependent until he doesn't. He will eventually, through his developmental stages, become more and more able to care for himself and will need the parent to do less for him... BUT that does not mean the attachment part ends. They are still attached.

Then he talked about how when the child grows and goes off to college they will still come home to see mom and dad but... he said to notice that Freshman come home for every break and feel homesick. By the time they are juniors or seniors they don’t' come home so much on break they will call and say "hey Dad, do you mind if I go to spring break with my friends" or "I'm going to X's house for the break, do you mind?". They are secure that you are still there but they don’t' need to be with you all that much because they are growing into their own lives. Yet, the attachment still exists.
So with patients.... the attachment is still there, even when they need therapy less and less. Some patients leave but they are still attached to him and may come back to refuel from time to time. He welcomes them back. He even knows they may not need anything in particular and things in their lives are going well but they need to check the attachment and then they go off into life again.

So, in his mind, once attached, always attached. It's not something dangerous and it's not something to fear or avoid. It's okay and absolutely normal. He also said that you cannot do any real processing with a trauma patient until they feel safe within the relationship and depending on the trauma it could take years for that.

he also said, in his opinion, there are two ways to learn how to do therapy well as a therapist and you need both. One is through school, reading and taking classes, doing practicum etc. The other is through being in analysis yourself. He believes it's essential for a T to learn what the patient experiences on the other side of the room.

Those are just a few words on this topic that I thought I would share with you. You may not agree and that is fine, or you may have experienced something else. These beliefs are what works for me and my T in our relationship.
Dependency is a natural developmental stage and if you miss it in childhood you need to reexperience it in therapy.

A good, secure attachment should never end. And even if we don't see each other all the time, we will always be attached. You can individuate and still be attached. My son is starting to individuate but he is still very attached to me.
My becoming more independent and needing him less happens on MY timetable not his.

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I know I shared this in another thread but I think it's important enough to share again because we have so many new people here and I think these themes of attachment, love, dependency come up very often.

We had an awesome session today. Last week my T was very hard on me. We tried to work on my need to disappear or my fear of being "seen". This anxiety has been very strong lately since I lost my office at work. I had placed an emergency call to him last week that I could not stand sitting at my desk and being seen and he calmed me down but then when I saw him he challenged the whole idea about being seen. My T has always remarked on my hair, clothes, jewelry, shoes etc. At first it was upsetting to me. I didn't know what to do with those compliments. I didn't trust them. Then I realized he was seeing me and it scared me. One day two years ago he remarked about my attention seeking choice of coat. We argued about that. Then he dropped it. Sometimes he would mention it and then drop it again.

This was all leading up to our conversation about whether or not I really fear being seen, or why I feel this way versus the way I look and dress. Let me tell you it made me squirm with his attention so focused on my "looks". He told me that there is a part of me that likes the attention and that I do not dress to hide or detract from attention. I wear bright colors, make-up, jewelry etc. He said he likes that about me. He enjoys that. He said it is who I "really" am. he wants me to own that part of me. He said it's healthy to want that kind of attention and he feels that my need to hide or disappear and not be seen relates to my belief that I will get in trouble or that I did something wrong (so better to hide). That part makes a lot of sense because the only attention I got as a child was when I was in "trouble" for some thing.

And so I should have been upset with last week's conversation because it was hard to take and talk about but my T commended me for "staying" in the room and not running or dissociating and for actually working through it and processing it with him. He said he was so pleased at my progress and he seemed SO excited.

So today we continued the conversation about my being who I am and not hiding my light. He said if I hid myself then I would not be my true self and he wants to keep moving me towards my true self and not the fearful, anxiety ridden person I have become since oldT traumatized me. I always had some anxiety but since that happened it has manifested itself in more extreme ways. Again, he noted that even though I was traumatized I still dressed well and was well put together. I told him it was my way of coping with my world turned upside down by the loss of oldT. I could still control what I looked like... but it took an extreme effort. He said that is where my strength lies and I have no idea how strong I am. He said he always noticed this and it made him feel good because he knew there was a healthy person under the trauma and I would heal. Then he said something so lovely... he said he was glad that I did not hide myself because then I would not be TN with the beautiful red hair Embarrassed Okay... I'm not a natural red head LOL but I loved hearing him say this. I mean I would have been thrilled to hear him say that my finger was beautiful How could I not love this man?

And again the conversation turned somehow back to attachment. We talked about how hard it was for me to work towards this. He said we have a good attachment on both sides and I said that I now know that the attachment does not end. He smiled and agreed. He then asked me what the underlying emotion of attachment was and I hedged and said no and he raised his eyebrow (so effective LOL) and I said ... nurturing? caring? and he laughed and said it's that word that you don't want to say and so I whispered "love". He nodded and said yes love and that is nothing to be afraid of. I said, well everyone seems to be afraid of it. He said he is not. And he also said that love and attachment just is... and he cannot take it away from me nor can anyone else. Once I have it it's mine... for always. And this is because it's unconditional and because he does not need anything back from me.

It reminded me that a long time ago he told me that it's okay for a therapist to love their client (and for the client to love the T) but the trouble comes when a T "falls in love" with the client because then it becomes about the T's needs and not the client's.

And so... I have 3 more sessions before Christmas. I need to talk to him about touch next time because this old unfinished conversation is hanging out there still.

Then I would like to ask him to read me a short story for Christmas. This came from our conversation about how development can be corrected and I can (to a certain extent) go back to do the development the right way. And so... since no one ever read to me I think I would like to experience it with him. He may say no and I have to be prepared for this. But I KNOW we will be able to talk about it.

Lastly, I would like to write him a letter for Christmas telling him how I feel about him. It's my gift to him for Christmas. I feel so good about our relationship lately. He has been so good to me, so kind and supportive. Yes, the work is hard and painful and I don't always like it, but it's really quite a miracle that after what oldT did to me, how badly he traumatized me.... that I could eventually withi a lot of work come to not only trust a T again but also come to love him.

Thanks for reading.
TN
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quote:
and he said that he believes if someone comes to love you through therapy it's the greatest gift ever. It's a very precious gift they give you and he welcomes it. He said that this is why you do this work. This means everything... oh the money is okay, that's fine but THIS means so much more and it's what keeps you doing this work.


quote:
So with patients.... the attachment is still there, even when they need therapy less and less. Some patients leave but they are still attached to him and may come back to refuel from time to time. He welcomes them back. He even knows they may not need anything in particular and things in their lives are going well but they need to check the attachment and then they go off into life again


WOW! that's just wonderful to read from a T's point of view. Reading that gives me a sense of peace and security in my relationship with my T.

Thank you for sharing that TN.
TN thank you for sharing this with us, it really is heartening to read about GOOD therapy, and also to hear how far you've come and how much you are healing within this relationship.

And can I say, yet again, how ENVIOUS of you and your T I am Wink. I'd give an awful lot to have a T who has a tenth of your T's understanding of attachment...

Glad things are going so well for you, and thanks again for sharing it with us (((((( TN ))))))

LL
TN,

quote:
So, in his mind, once attached, always attached. It's not something dangerous and it's not something to fear or avoid. It's okay and absolutely normal.


How great that your T can talk about attachment so openly with you and explain it so clearly without causing you to feel shameful. I love the example he used about a child away at college. It makes sense. You are so blessed to have a T that gets it.

TN, Bloom where you are planted!

deeplyrooted
Thank you for sharing this, TN, it really is lovely. Hug two I think it's good for us to have examples of well-functioning attachment relationships in therapy.

I don't know if you saw my thread recently in the SI forum, but one milestone I recently reached in therapy is that I've become much more able to distinguish my T from my narcissistic ex-mentor who eventually rejected me. I suppose it is like you learning the difference between your T and your oldT. It's so important. Because when we can tell the difference between someone who is safe to be vulnerable with and someone who is not, we can know better whom to trust in the future.

Another milestone has been the ability to sit with my T, feel connected in a positive way, and even talk about feeling the connection but without feeling so much fear and parts of me wanting to run away so much.

These may seem like tiny things from an outside perspective, and yet we work so so hard for them, don't we?
Always lovely to read your news TN. I feel blessed too as my T and I talk about our attachment a lot and she shares the same view as your T. We have never spoken about Love - but we do talk about care, support, dependency, attachment a LOT.

My T and I now touch - via hugs and this has added an entirely new dimension. Still early days. It does open up a lot of issues and it is so dependent on the client. I am interested in your news on how you tackle this - now that I have had experience with hugs and seeing whether your T has changed his views any.

Somedays
TN,

I love the understanding and acceptance you (and your T! Smiler) have of attachment/dependency. I love the way you model that for the rest of us by sharing examples from your therapy and by articulating the concepts so well.

quote:
Dependency is a natural developmental stage and if you miss it in childhood you need to reexperience it in therapy.


This sentence really jumped out at me. As much as I have come to appreciate my T and our connnection-- I do at times feel a bit sheepish inwardly about the regressiveness of it all. I tell myself that my life and parents were not so bad. . . why am I like this, obsessed with a T? But you know, I'm not sure I did experience dependency in childhood. I can't remember an age when I wasn't aware of my mother's vulnerabilities and trying to protect her. I can't remember a time I didn't filter my words to her with the idea of not making her nervous or upset-- even going back to memories as young as five or younger, it seems it was always this way. So even though my mother is a good person in many ways, it seems T is providing something I need that I didn't get. Feeling okay with that is a continual process, it seems.

Okay, sorry for going on so much about me. Mostly wanted to say this was a great post.

And. . .
quote:
One day two years ago he remarked about my attention seeking choice of coat.


Surely I am not the only one curious to hear about the attention seeking coat? Big Grin lol. But only give us the fashion report if you want to. Wink
HIC... LOL about the coat! The fashion report is that this is a faux fur 3/4 jacket that really does look real. It has a large collar with fur pleats around the edge and the color is gray with black markings sort of like stripes of black fur. Not the typical coat you would see around my area and he teases me it's even attention catching for NY (I used to live in NY).

Thank you all for the comments on this thread. I just want to make it known that I posted this to spur conversation among us members about how this works in therapy but also to maybe encourage some of you to approach the topics of attachment and love with your own T's. I can't speak for everyone here but it's a good chance if you had abuse and/or neglect as a child you also did not have a good, healthy attachment to a caregiver and you also did not progress through the developmental stages the way you should have. This is why we attach so strongly to our T's and why we struggle with dependency/independency and fear the intimacy and love that develops in therapy.

I also want to note here that despite this warm fuzzy post about my T, it has not been all sunshine and roses with him. He can be tough and he pushes me a lot at times. And our relationship so far has spanned twice per week therapy for 26 months straight. So it definitely has been intense but I needed it because I was so traumatized by oldT, especially in the beginning of this new therapy. I could not even "see" my T for a lot of months.

I have had to endure him telling me I was "prissy" and "pathetic" at times and then telling me I was acting "mean" when I blindsided him about something. He has insisted on eye contact, has really pushed the inner child work and and refused my request of a hug or other touch (aside from his customary handshake and pat on the arm). He refused to allow me to bring him any food items (he says I cannot take care of him as I try to do this with everyone I should be depending on and it backfires on me as it did with oldT). Oh and then he went and bought those hated leather chairs!!

I saw many of these things as dealbreakers in our relationship... most especially the refusal of the hug and then having his wife move into the office next to his. But I went back over and over to try to work through these issues. I knew he would not move his boundaries and so we had to talk through my feelings and emotions around them. I needed to be heard and he needed to understand where these needs were coming from. And, you know, it's just a year now that his wife moved into his office suite and I have not once ever seen her or bumped into her there. He told me he would protect me and he has.

So, yes, I would get really angry with him and want to leave him. But I think I knew he was the right T for me and deep inside I knew I needed to face those things that were freaking me out. I was absolutely terrified of the wife conversations we had and I remember sitting on the floor with him shaking and sobbing hysterically and he never said ONE WORD of comfort to me. I really thought our relationship was over and he would terminate me or suggest I find someone else. Yet at the end of that horrible session he patted my arm and handed me his dragon to hold for the weekend so I would have to go back to see him to return it! I was scared to go back to see him again and he knew it so he made it easier for me LOL. He's a wise devil.

And so I learned not to blindside him, and to be open and honest if I could be and to dare... just a little bit in there and because of this we were able to have these love and attachment discussions.

kmay... I'm glad this was calming for you to read. As for handing him over... well, not sure about that LOL.

hey draggers... thanks for the hugs. Sending some to you as well.

Hi SD... I'm glad you are having the attachment and care discussions. They are important. I'll let you know if my T ever changes his views on the hug or any other touch. I'm glad you are getting them and getting to the point where they don't send you fleeing. I agree that a lot of this depends on the patient and having those discussions first about touch in therapy.

Hi Pingu...thanks for the supportive comments. It's nice to see you here.

Hi BLT... you are correct. It's so important for us to be able to figure out who the safe people are to be open and vulnerable with. I had no idea and kept ending up repeating the same things over and over with the same kind of person. I'm learning to tell the difference now. I'm glad you are more able to distinguish your T from ex-mentor. That really helps. And yes, being able to sit with T and talk without your body screaming to run away is a big accomplishment and a milestone. Good for you.

Hi deeplyrooted. My T is so relaxed about attachment that it makes me feel so normal and that helps. I always felt so damaged and oldT did nothing to help with that. And the college example makes so much sense because you see it happen all around you. My son is too young yet for college but I will remember this when he is ready to go.

Hey Lampers... thanks for your kind words. I know you are strugglign with your new T but please remember that for a very long time I told my T he was unempathic and cold and distant. I told him he was the total opposite of warm and fuzzy and I hated he was like that. It was not true, it's just that I was so numb I couldn't feel anything and then I refused to accept his warmth and kindness because I was so busy thinking of him as my enemy (mostly unconsciously). Things started to feel a little different after he helped me survive my vacation this summer and then through this whole horrible work experience. I think these hurdles brought us closer together and allowed me to realize how good he really is and yes how fortunate I am to have him. So you keep plugging away with T and be patient and it will happen too for you one day.

hi avoidant... I'm so glad my post was able to give you some peace and security in your own T relationship.

Scars 09... thank you so much for the hugs. I hope you are doing okay.

Thanks again all
TN
Hi TN

Sorry I am a bit late to this, but I agree with the comments above, how good to have a T that gets it. For me, having someone who understands my childhood attachment difficulties and accepts them as being real and affecting me now; having a T that's finally convincing me that they won't vanish no matter what I think or reveal to them; and understanding that 'push/pull' is important to me if I am going to keep my independence and sense of moving forward.

I am so glad that your T has been there for you and that you have been able to work through any difficulties to a positive outcome. Well done TN - lovely to read your post.

starfishy
TN, it is lovely to see you, and the progress with your lovely T, too. You are very brave to be able to experience all of these things and be open to it all, after what happened with your last therapy. I know firsthand how tightly that box has remained closed for me, and I think you are very brave to be sharing so openly with your therapist about all of your feelings and fears.

Thank you for sharing of your sessions.

Love,

Beebs
I tried this tonight only in my case it would be titled talking connection since I can barely tolerate the word connection and can't imagine the L word.

I've spent the last couple of weeks agonizing over my T's comments about my puzzle which led to my growing awareness of how much meaning it had for me. Then I became aware of how much I trusted T and he had given me a sense of security and safety albeit constantly threatened and doubted and endangered by me. Then I felt guilty because I had all these feelings that he didn't know about and I'm sure wouldn't approve of and I felt like I had to tell him. Everytime I go into his office and am really in contact with how much I depend on him the feelings are overwhelming and I can't speak so all I do is cry. When I get some distance from the feelings then I think I'm being so stupid and am too ashamed to speak.

Tonight with his help I started talking a little about what he calls connection and I call dependence. We didn't get very far but it was enough. I have said something and next time I will try and say more.

TN, thanks for sharing your experiences because I have often wished my T would say something like yours had about connection and caring going both ways. Hearing about your T has helped me try and talk about that desire with mine.
quote:
I'm also getting to the point of believing that no matter what I tell my T he won't vanish on me.


TN, can you explain what you mean by this? Is this literal or figurative? I am trying to figure out if this is similar to something that happened to me. When my T asked me to tell her about a trauma in my life I told her I can't tell her because she will disappear, and I waved my hand in front of her face. For me that felt literal. Is that what you are describing or is it the familiar fear that your T will stop seeing you?

deeplyrooted
Sorry I haven't been back to this thread. Christmas and work are keeping me so busy. But I wanted to answer you DR about my T vanishing...

It goes back to what happened with my oldT. One day I was in therapy with him and the next day, I was banished from his sight and his office...with very little explanation except that I needed a "special trauma T". Nothing in particular had happened. I was not getting worse, I was not calling or emailing more than in the past, I was not acting out or violating boundaries. But I was abandoned. And because for a long time I had no real idea of why this happened, I kept expecting my current T to just vanish... either by just not being allowed to see him or by him abandoning me. I think it's more of the physical sense in my mind. One day I'm with him and the next day I am banned from his sight. The suddenness of what happened to me and the continued banishment over a long period of time... really forever... except for two termination sessions....caused me to have PTSD. And because I still struggle with the remnants of it 2.5 years later... I live with the fear I will do something that will cause it to happen again. (And yes, T and I have worked very hard for me to accept that it was not ME it was HIM and HIS issues.)

Hope that helps in some way.
TN
quote:
And because I still struggle with the remnants of it 2.5 years later... I live with the fear I will do something that will cause it to happen again.


My abrupt and unexpected term from T 1.5 years ago causes me problems in my therapy life constantly. This quote above really reminded me of it. It has stunted my progress, attachment, relationship, trust - everything with my new T - everything I do is based on fear that I am going to do the wrong thing, say the wrong thing and that my T will terminate me too. Fear is the basis of everything.

And just when I have been on a good path with it, something will come up that will trigger a relapse of terror ( it is more than fear ) that I have done something wrong and T is about to terminate me.

It is a horrible, viscious and damaging circle. Those poor T's like mine and TN's - they take on incredibly damaged people who are already traumatised from life and then this is another level on top. Both our T's are awesome and are great for us both - but I do feel sorry for them that they have inherited such hurting people.

I would like to talk to my T about the Love comments from TN's T - i sent parts of it to her - but I am also scared to hear her thoughts on it. I crave for someone to say they love me and for me to feel it (it meaning love, respect, care, attachment and trust all in 1 package) too. That part of my emotion was turned off 20 years ago. It is one of my therapy goals to know love and to actually feel it - so maybe this is the start of the conversation I have with my T.

Somedays.

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