Hi Jones
My internet went down the day before we went away for a few days so i sort of disappeared without warning, just wanted to apologise and explain.

Jones, this is a classic dilemma, to feel or not to feel. If your head is anything like mine it will pull out all the stops to distract you, terrify you, bully you etc. into not feeling and most definately NEVER EVER admitting to vulnerability.

So as much as you try to rationalise that this is transference it will make no difference to the intensity of the feelings that come up, and in fact there is no point in pretending at all. The admitting is the hardest part, or certainly was for me, not even out loud, i mean inside my own head. Every part of me was screaming that i was in terrible danger and it was only through therapy that i learnt i wasn't.

The journey was hell for the 1 8months or so it lasted but i cannot express how i would do it 50 times over again for the benefit and healing it has brought to my life. Hooray, i can even feel my current depression and speak about my sadness, unbelievable maybe but what an incredible thing to be able to feel what i am feeling at the time i am feeling it.

So jump right in, once you learn to keep your balance your life will change in ways you cannot even imagine right now. And trust me, you can't drown in a feeling, it just feels like it but that is the beauty of learning to see what is true and what is past fear.

Pan

dear jones, this must be a very short reply,(i am sitting on a very humpy-bomby train when typing this!) - wanted to say that i read you poster and found so much of a high value in it. Panodra`s reply to it, too! Let this be a echo of it Just a little add: Your first sentence, striked me. I could have written it myself, at the time when i finished seing my female therapist, and found current male T ("instead") The decition to find maleT, was exactly based on my feeling that i needed to work with the transeference, which i only could "get" working with a male T, in order to heal. Of course, i had only vague "gut" feelings regard to it, not one singel rational thought or intelectual understanding of it. Then. (2 years ago)

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
My decision to work with a male T has been basically a decision to enter into a state of transference - I knew as soon as I started contemplating it that it would quickly bring up a lot of stuff from me, and it took me quite a while to feel okay with making that decision. Since making it and especially since meeting Manatee I have felt it slowly snowballing inside me, this preoccupation, investment in powerful hopes, and a whole lot of residual emotion - anxiety, longing and sadness that are now centering themselves on this new relationship-to-be. [QUOTE]

The whole passage(?) grasp the experience i had as well. That itself may not be helpful to you- lol- but if there`s any comfort to know, i did too "chose" to follow my gut-feeling, that i needed to enter therapy, with a male T, in order to "stire" up my transeference. Maybe unlike meny others here on forum, i`ve always thought of transeference as a good (when understood and dealed with *right*) sign, rahter than only painfull/distubing.
Of course that involved a lot of painful feelings being stirred up, but nevertheless was it the only way, to heal. I am so glad i chose to "allow" myself to go into such a intens- relationship, and as Pandora said, i would chose it 50 times over again. Well, sorry for rmabling on here, jones. I look forwared to hear how this relation developes jones, and hope you dont mind i am interested in this. (you know, we people tend to compare similar experiences, sometimes too much though..) Thank you again for a great poster. Hope your waiting period for your next session, aint too hard. Not that meny days left now, is it?

quote:

Maybe if I meet this process halfway, take it seriously in myself then *more* will be possible in the relationship, rather than less. And if the relationship is not right, then I will still have a fuller experience in myself.

I loved this bit very much, you sound very aware of what is happening and also insightful about the process. thank you for sharing both your hopes and fears.

Pandora,

I just wanted to thank you for your beautiful post here in this thread. I read it this morning before my session with T1 and it helped me tremendously. I had an amazing session in which I opened up a bit about my attachment to T. I feel amazing after getting some of that off my chest.

Thank you for sharing your experience!

Jones, I do like the sound of Manatee and I think you had a very promising first session with him. I think that perhaps during that session you felt the stirring of attachment and transference already and the part of you screaming danger is your amygdala trying to warn you not to move closer and become more attached as this is scary. But I believe it has to be done for you to heal.

What you describe... the preoccupation, the hopes, the longing and sadness is part of the connection you already are starting to feel towards this T but the memory of past pain and disappointment is understandably troubling to you. I do the very same thing... I put focus on a relationship that helps me to deal with anxieties and stresses and the other person has no idea. In the past it was teachers or bosses or co-workers... all of them were male and of course lately it was oldT. And I wonder what that means and what I am missing that I am looking for specifically from a stronger, wiser, other male. Obviously, I'm looking for what my Dad never provided me as a child.

I know that the transference can make you feel vulnerable but, in my case, it was what kept me in therapy with oldT, it's what motivated me to work hard, to dare to trust and to really look at some difficult issues from my past. That relationship fueled a lot of the healing work I was doing. Okay.. well I did end up getting betrayed and abandoned and terribly hurt. There were times I didn't think I would make it to the following morning the pain was so bad and I was so lost. But I did make it and I survived the worst, the absolute worst that therapy could ever throw at me and I found newT who is wonderful. And I'm trying really hard to allow this new relationship to blossom and grow and to be the one that really does heal me. It's really hard to trust again but newT does not push it, he just does what he does and that makes me feel safer as time goes along.

I'm not sure what I want to say here... I sort of got lost... but I think I want you to know that the reward in working with Manatee seems to far outweigh the risk of getting hurt, and even when hurt that does not have to mean the end of you or therapy or growing and learning. There will always be the risk of getting hurt, in losing important people and in not having things work out exactly the way we want them to... but maybe instead they work out the way they were meant to. I'm still not sure about this as I would have preferred to avoid a lot of the pain and trauma of losing oldT... but I am still standing.

I am really looking forward to hearing more about Manatee and in seeing how your relationship with him develops and grows and how this changes and inspires you in your life and in your work. I don't know why I just have a good feeling about this.

Many hugs
TN

These are really lovely and encouraging responses - thank you Pan, Froggie, Sadly, LG, TN, Monte & UV. It's really good to hear about your experiences with this and to feel like I'm on the right track with this.

Not that the fear totally diminishes... But actually I have felt a lot calmer since I wrote this, and kind of solidified this acceptance of where I'm at. In accepting it I've found this weird thing - moments of a sense of safety in this new unknown relationship, a feeling that I am already connected to this new T, and it will be okay. It seems sorta delusional, but sorta not too - no less rational than the fear, anyway, because who knows, the relationship might work, just as well as it might not. And when I have this feeling I find I am not stuck, I am able to move forward with the things I need and want to do, as though I really were going to be able to talk to him next week about my progress and what I'm up to and what I want.

Fear comes back in two forms at the moment - one is that I was so excited and hopeful when I first started working with Art-T too, and felt quite strong transference anxiety then, too. It all just fizzled up as I gathered more and more doubts about her, and found no opening to address these in the relationship. What if Manatee is just the same, a facade of a good T (or it's me that made Art-T seem like that)?

And the other fear is about it becoming apparent or seeming like I don't need this relationship. Like it's all very well for me to feel connected and go with the flow of feeling trusting - but then it might just seem that everything's fine with me and I don't need this.

Again, I am just trying to let these fears be.

J

Hi Jones,

Been away from the forum for awhile. When I left, you were still struggling with leaving your OldT, the woman. So I am sorry that I missed your posts on manatee, especially the first session.

The others who have been through it and managed to work it all through and who posted it above, have said everything all so beautifully that there is not much to add.

I found myself forcing myself to trust him maybe a little faster than I was ready. And, I wanted to pass that onto you too. That it's really one step at a time and you don't have to dive into anything. You can take it as slow or as fast as you want. You are in the driver's seat.

I can relate to your fear about manatee just having the facade of a good T. But you won't really know until you get in there and give it a try. It could happen that way. But until you decide that's it's your life and it's important enough for you to find out, it won't happen.

Sometimes I think I'm the coldest b*itch ever and don't feel anything at all. Then other times, the feelings come rushing forward with such force that it's frightening. And then I feel such relief because I know the emotions are there and I'm not a cold b*itch. I just can't always handle the emotions. Not all at once, anyway. Maybe you just need to take it a little slower.

It's so hard to take that risk. You've probably told everyone else already, but if you don't mind, can you tell me what you like so much about him?

HUGS

Liese

Hi Liese,

Nice to see you back! Thanks for your thoughts, especially about trying to trust before you're ready. I notice I am doing a sort of oscillation back and forth between feelings of trust & idealising hope and feelings of fear & critical-mindedness. I'm just trying to let that happen and not judge it. As I practice accepting it, I find there are more times that that whole process moves into the background rather than the foreground. When it does come into the foreground, I am trying to welcome it, seeing it just as something my mind needs to do to prepare for an important relationship and an important self-development.

One of the things that has come up is wanting to feel special in this relationship, valued in it. I thought to myself last night that actually it is a special relationship I am giving myself, a gift of self-exploration and development to myself that I am taking time for, putting money aside for. Hopefully his skills will be in keeping with that.

What I like so much about him... it's sort of not like that yet, because I don't know much about him - so a lot of these early positive transference feelings are just hope.

But there are a few things he did in the first session that I really liked. 1) He had spent time with my case material and knew what he wanted to ask. 2) He was aware of the time and made full use of it, managing how much depth and detail there was on different things - in other words, he was willing to direct the time management of the session, which Art-T doesn't do. This seemed to me to indicate that he works as an active partner in therapy, rather than just being a witness to my meandering self-reflection. 3) When I got stuck with a question he asked ("What have you learned through therapy so far?") he helped out by giving me concrete examples of ways to answer that question. 4) He asked direct but contained questions about the difficult stuff - how my experiences with father & stepdad affect me with men/people.

Hoping it keeps developing well!

J

Holy Moly Jones!

I only read your initial post- and I didnot want to lose my initial feelings of- WOW- Know thyself- is what I see in you. You are so brave in going into this thing with eyes wide open

You have also given me an outside view of why I stick with Mark. Your initial post describes what is happening with us. through the ups and downs, the love and the hurts- thru the blindness and the revelations, the strengths and weaknesses in the relationship, the gains and the losses, the overwhelming and the calming- I stick with Mark (by the way- he knows I use his first name- I asked first)
I have always been impressed with your insights. Now I will read the thread. You are a brave brave soul.
An aside- I have not seen Mark in a month- my doing- trying to sort things out- gain my perspective- then go back to him.
Yesterday I txt him and told him a month is a long time, and I miss talking to him. He response,"...and I miss you too although I have strong defences against missing people." Priceless.

Wow to you Pan, as well.

Man am I still a newbie- I never knew what transference was until about 6 months of therapy, and you guys are doing this on purpose to grow more. "Shit- that is amazing!" and I still refuse to talk about it- eventhough for me it is the elephant in the room. T knows all about it- and has attempted bringing it up, but I might as well have my fingers in my ears, eyes closed and loudly saying " lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalal!"


"...stirring of attachment and transference already and the part of you screaming danger is your amygdala trying to warn you not to move closer and become more attached as this is scary. But I believe it has to be done for you to heal."

yes TN this makes sense to me, this is my amygdala.

OMG Monte- Who was this person I barely knew, who with a few simple words could warm a heart that ached with coldness or touch my shoulder to emphasize a point and mystically - though inadvertently - touch a little person locked away in darkness... yet also fill me with an excruciating longing for the impossible or rouse such frightening anger in me for the simple crime of not returning contact quickly enough? WTF? is a question I have asked myself many times!

This is the most inspiring thread- I am learning sooooo much. Monte- you have captured it!
Your next paragraph has me crying with laughter- at the plight- not at your expense.

"And the other fear is about it becoming apparent or seeming like I don't need this relationship. Like it's all very well for me to feel connected and go with the flow of feeling trusting - but then it might just seem that everything's fine with me and I don't need this." by Jones

OOOOOOh Jones- this cuts me to the quick- makes me look at my motives more deeply. Hmmmmmmm... thanks

Liese- at times lately when feeling too much. Sometimes I think I miss the not feeling. I think I am too open- too much feeling!

Jones- this is your post- sorry to comment so much- I have not been on lately and I just found so much to say.

Hi again,

I love that you are able to actually list like that what you like about him. I went into therapy so blindly. I took any therapist that would take me. Thank God new T is a good one. Anyway, I love that you are being the consumer her. All of us, when we enter therapy, are so vulnerable. And we take whatever they give us, thinking they know better. It's really hard to be the consumer when you feel so vulnerable but you're working through all your feelings. It has to be to your benefit.

My T does some of the same things manatee did. Helping me sometimes to answer a question when I get stuck. Not exactly putting words in my mouth, but saying it could be this or it could be that. I really like that he does that too.

I like that part about wanting to feel special in the relationship. I, for one, denied for a long time that the therapeutic relationship was a relationship at all, let alone a special relationship. And, I think my therapy kind of lagged a little because of that. I felt like a crumb in my T's life and I want to feel important to him. It has only been since I've acknowledged its importance in my life and made it important in my life that I've grown. Maybe I finally made myself important enough. Like you said so well, a gift to yourself.

I'm glad you feel hopeful. It's scary but that's a good feeling. Sometimes, when I lose hope in current T or the process, my therapy suffers too. It's when I believe in it that good things happen. Lately, when I am losing hope, my observing ego is starting to catch it with T's help and see that I'm falling prey to my dark angry thoughts, the dark ones that want me to be alone and unhappy. Hopefully over time you will find that your hope is strengthened because T IS in fact good and helpful and not some foolish fantasy. Hope is not a bad thing.

Will be looking forward to hearing more about manatee. Is that his name or is that what you call him on the forum? Do you still see Art T? Sorry if you've already explained all this.

HUGS

Liese

Hi Mayo! Great to see you! And thanks for the lovely words - I'm so glad you got so much out of this thread! And I'm heartened to know that you are taking your time, working through your feelings with Mark and that he is still there for you when you are ready. I'm really hoping that when you decide to go back you will update us on what develops.

Liese, I have had therapy or counselling on and off in little bits and pieces for much of my life, so it's easier for me to know what to expect and get ready for it. But even then at times when things have been really rough for me I have been caught by surprise at how much energy it seems to take and how scary it can be to enter into that relationship fully.

The thread with the stuff about ending with Art T is here: slings and arrows if you want to catch up. Manatee is another word for a sea-cow - I picked it cos he's a man and a T. hug back!!

J

Hi Jones,

I'm going to check out that thread!

So, I had my second appointment and it was really nice - again just gentle and calm, and although Manatee dealt with some things very directly it felt light and not too hard, not demanding on me at all. He again directed everything, asked good questions, and again managed not to say anything I thought was stupid the whole session!!

We dealt with some relationship stuff in the first part of the session and he was really amazing - he said some things about the couples work and his aims with that that were way beyond my expectations. Like, a core conflict that I have really struggled with the whole time we've been in couples counselling he just laid to rest in 10 minutes. I've always felt misunderstood and in conflict with myself, my husband, my therapist and/or my husband's therapist about this thing - and he just very quickly, clearly and deliberately established that he understood, and we're now going in the other direction. I didn't even raise it myself, he just understood it from the notes and I guess from handover from Art-T. So I'm still kinda reeling from that, it was the last thing I expected. And I really don't know how it will play out, but I feel so relieved.

We then went on to talk about my work stuff and he asked a lot of good questions about that. Again I was really surprised, I have been expecting and wanting a kind of drill sergeant approach, (like you, Deepfried!) and he just didn't go near all the discipline angst stuff, he was just interested in how it felt for me to work and how it used to feel when I began. He said he'd like to try some EMDR around this, to see if we can get my left & right brain working together more.

I came out feeling really good, just casual and relaxed and understood. I am going away next week so we will have the next appointment early, on Tuesday, so that feels good too.

I tell you what, though, he has some serious poker face. At the end of the session he said "You know, something happened while we were talking" and I tensed up, thinking he was about to do some psychodynamic mojo. But get this: a sizeable EXPLOSION had gone off out the window, beyond some trees so who knows what from, with the flames turning to a cloud the shape of a lightbulb beside my head!!! "I hope no one was hurt", he said!

But I have no idea *when* this happened, because he didn't move a muscle... as far as I knew his attention was with me the whole time.

Hi Jones,
That was wonderful to hear. It sounds like you've found a T who is a good match for you. His attunement sounds so very good (I am very impressed by him not even letting on that there was an explosion. That means his attention was where it should be, totally focused on you.) And it must have been a relief to have him go the heart of something that has been plaguing you for so long and have him understand and support you. I remember when I first started experiencing finally be understood by my T (after what felt like I had been screaming for years and no one could hear me) I told him it was like I was a sponge in the desert and someone was pouring fresh, clear water over me. I know only time will tell, but right now you're very courageous decision to switch Ts is very much looking like the right one. Thanks for letting us know.

AG

Hi Jones, It was great to read about your second session with manatee. It seems like it went very well and I continue to like the sound of him and how he works with you. It was interesting how he focused in on something that was concerning to you for a long time.

So... you do you still feel good in his office? Does he shake hands? Is he still "dishy"? Does he allow outside contact? Is everything straigtened out about you totally leaving artT to work with him now? And how is the tranference anxiety now? Any change there?

Sorry for all the questions. I do think he sounds very focused and experienced and that he continues to make good use of your time together. I continue to have a good feeling about him.

Let us know how it goes on Tuesday.

TN

Thank you, dear AG, for the support! I was impressed by the explosion thing too - and there were other things in that too, that he was able to see it in the moment as an image (a lightbulb) that connected to our conversation, but that he also didn't get silly about that (if he'd said 'it's a sign!!', which I think Art-T might have done, I would have been out of there), and that he also had thought for the people who might have been hurt. It was good.

TN, love your questions, thank you!

He shook hands with me the first time he met me and it was really reassuring. He also handed me his card very carefully, with both hands, making eye contact. Now the card feels like this reassuring object. No handshake this time, but that's fine with me, not something I really think about. It's nice to step into his office. It's a corner office with low windows on two sides, some garden (rare here) and greenery between the block and the city. I haven't really been able to look around yet, except for noticing Curly-T's picture on a shelf- but I will pick up more detail as I relax. It's a small office with two arm chairs available for me - his armchair is quite close to the one I choose - closer than Curly-T or Art-T used to sit. I like that.

He is dishy on paper, but actually it doesn't feel like that in person, though he's very pleasant looking, and it's not even that he's not my type. He said something really interesting this time - we were talking about my husband's hesitation to do couples work with him because he's a man, and he said people often react to one gender or another, and what happens over time (ideally) is that the therapist becomes just a therapist, not a gender. I felt like he was talking to me here too, not just about my husband, and actually I found it really reassuring. I feel like his masculinity is not in the room - or more like (this may sound weird, but it has to do with Curly-T's picture) who he is in the room is feminine and masculine and neither - as he said, just a therapist. It will be interesting to see if this stays the same for me. Part of the work we need to do is in one way or another about my sexuality, so it's delicate ground. He has offered openings but I'm not ready to directly address any of that yet.

Everything about ArtT is sorted. She had given me an appointment for one month's time, just in case, with the intention that as long as everything is ok I would cancel it. He asked me about that and we cancelled it on Friday. He seemed sort of surprised about it, like it was overkill or something, I don't know - I didn't feel judged though.

The transference *anxiety* I am managing quite well. I am just making my feelings welcome, not trying to resist them, telling myself they are necessary and part of the work. This seems to really simplify things, and I hope I can keep doing it. But it does just leave me with transference feelings! A lot of loneliness is coming up, deep longing for male company and attention, sadness and lostness. I feel anxious about whether I will be able to keep working with him for as long as I will want or need, or whether I will be pushed out. He asked me how I was 'globally', beyond the work stuff, and I said 'fine, pretty content'. Since then I have wondered if that will mean I will be cut off once I have done this work. And whether I will be able to say the things I need to, given that he is quite directive in the sessions so far - which so far is really helpful, for now.

love,
Jones

Jones, thanks for anwering my questions so thoroughly. I am glad that you are still feeling good in his office. Yes you will notice more and more as you relax there. I have recently made myself focus more on looking around newT's office to try to develop that feeling of home that I had in oldT's space. The thing I most love about NewT's office is his huge wall of books. I'd love to be able to use it as a library LOL... and he has said to me that he lends books so once I'm feeling more secure there I may ask him to recommend a book to me. Aside from that he has some knick-knacks (probably client gifts) and a few award plaques on the shelves.

I think it was interesting what he said about the T eventually becoming genderless or a combination of both genders. I can see where you could come to think of him as a T not a HIM. You will get to the delicate ground when you are ready. There is time and no need to rush it. You are just getting to know each other now. I like the way you describe him handing you the card, with the eye contact. It reminded me of my newT as he sort of did the same thing but he also noted to me that his email addy was printed on the card and I could use it whenever I needed to. I still have that first card too. It's sort of a comfort object now. I'm glad you can sit close. For me that was important.

I know it's hard but try not to worry now over when this will end or if you will be cut off when the work issues are addressed. I think that once your relationship blooms, you never know where the therapy will go. Things come up that you never expect once you feel attunement and trust. As for him being quite directive...well if you find this interferring with your thoughts or feelings just let him know and talk it through. Maybe he thinks this is what you want him to be. I have told newT on a few occassions that what he has done has bothered me and we discussed it. He said he likes that I can be so open and he likes the feedback. I think this is the case with most good and confident Ts. They appreciate the client's feedback on the therapy and the relationship.

I look forward to seeing how this promising relationship unfolds.

Hugs
TN

Dear DF, thanks, my friend. Yes, I wanted to say at the time, I relate to so much of your experience - the instinct for a 'discipline' approach, the critical evaluation of whether a helper is doing it right and whether they are 'useful', etc. I was serious about being pleased that he hadn't said anything stupid by the end of the second session - I really do evaluate that way. I will have to see how the work approach develops. I don't even think I have communicated yet that that was my expectation - I was just really surprised that it wasn't his automatic approach! Maybe we'll do some forced marches and star jumps later on...?

TN, thank you so much for this kind reassurance.

quote:

I know it's hard but try not to worry now over when this will end or if you will be cut off when the work issues are addressed. I think that once your relationship blooms, you never know where the therapy will go. Things come up that you never expect once you feel attunement and trust.

It really helps to read this and I hope he is open to that too. He did say something in the session that I kinda disagreed with just in the sense that it was very different to my experience, and I said so - he seemed pleased about that.

Something else interesting I remembered. You know I googled him and found out that he shares a major hobby as me (or used to), and he also does some (I think hobby) stuff in my major work area. So I was wondering how he would handle disclosure about this, whether he'd tell me or not. He seemed almost undecided on this himself. He didn't disclose, but at one point said "If I were someone who did X [X is the thing that I do, and he actually does this too], and if I were married, I can see how it could blah blah blah". And then at another point he said "I like the way that for people who do X, this and this happens..." and he got quite excited - I guess because he was talking about his own experience. This is where I said "It's not like that for me when I do it."

I felt ok with what he had said about it, and with disagreeing, because I knew he was talking about his own experience, not just making shit up. But it might have been difficult, otherwise. And he didn't know that I knew that - I think it will be simpler if I just tell him that I do know.

I forgot to answer about outside contact - he works at the same practice as Curly-T (who's left) and Art-T, so same practice rules of no outside contact. It's okay with me as it's what I am used to and comfortable with. If I need an extra session I can set one up through the office.

**Edit** - sorry, just realised this post is really hard to understand! I'll try to edit it.

J

hi, Jones...i didn't think your post was hard to understand...just thinking out loud, which is helpful thing to do. That's what we are here for!

I really sounds like Manatee is the T for you. Like TN, I have a great feeling about this.

I like that you know from your own perspective that he isn't just "making shit up." It seems really important that you know that- and I'm glad that you do.

Ok, my comments can't get too involved...I'm still in self-imposed lurkdom.

I just think it 's so great that you can already talk freely with him about your own experience, instead of the nodding and agreeing thing that can stop up therapy. I recently had an experience that opened doors for me, where I told T, it's not like that, it's like this- (!!) which he told me was exactly what I was supposed to do, and that he was happy I told him that what he said was not wuite right. he said that is what teamwork in therapy means. Quite a revelation for me. Making progress now, I think. So I just want to encourage you to keep that up...tell him when you don't agree and when it's not like that for you...it will help a lot.

gotta go,

Love,

Blackbird

Thanks Beebs, for poking your head out just a little bit. It's lovely to hear that you were able to collaborate with your T in that way - I think being able to do this helps therapy go a *lot* faster.

love,
J

oh- heck i thought i had replied to your post about your latest appt. but realise i havent. hm. Anyway, better late than never, right? so, cheer, cheer for you and your t- which i like the sound of, too! (i espescially liked the "poker face" story- that says alot about how attuned he is with you!)
Keep talking yourself through the transference anxiety, Jones. Its an interesting thread name btw, i`ve just qusetioned the whole "talking through transference" my own, but i realize its talking about the FEELINGS that accuours in whatever treansference that heales, rahter than only an intelectual/theoretical aknowlidgment(?) about the subject that. OK- gonna stop my rambling here.
Have a good day!

Jones, just wanted to say that this sounds fantastic - that after all the grief and frustration of working with a T who just didn't get you, and all that waiting for an appointment with Manatee, it all is working out so beautifully. Way to go!

Your sessions sounded so positive and are giving you a sense of finally finding someone who can help you - you SO deserve that! I'm so pleased for you

(((( Jones ))))

LL

Hey, I just wanted to give a little update. I've had a couple of sessions since I last wrote and they've been really different.

The first one Manatee said he'd like to prep me for some EMDR, and then we had this really fast, challenging, roller coaster session with me trying to wriggle away from the EMDR content stuff and him persisting and unfazed, acknowledging I was getting mad and stuff but still just focusing on getting the info, which was in the end okay with me - like I could do my resisting and it wouldn't derail the work we needed to do, and that was somehow really reassuring.

What wasn't reassuring was that he was so businesslike about this I felt really uncertain about the relationship - whether he was just going to do this EMDR thing & fix me up and send me on my way whether I was ready or not. And because I was feeling scared about the EMDR for a few reasons that felt really yuck.

But then we had another session a couple of days ago and he told me he thought the EMDR would be good for me, but he wanted it to be my choice and we ended up not doing it that session. He was trying to collect more material and my mind just was going blank, but he handled this really perfectly. He tried a couple of alternative ways of thinking, asking me for an image or a posture instead of a memory (in some situations this would work ideally for me, just not right then), and then when I still couldn't do that he backed right up and asked me how I was feeling about therapy & about him right then. Huge relief for me that he is able to go there and discuss that, and that he knew this was a good way to address my freezing up then.

He somehow managed to keep it really light and gentle throughout all that, which meant that I could acknowledge I was feeling scared about the EMDR without having to have some huge big disclosure.

I really like him a lot. Each session I see a few more things he has in his toolbox and because skill is hugely important to me in a T I find this really reassuring. He is smart and attuned and is bothering to get to know me. I feel pretty sure at this stage that he is someone I can work with. I don't know how long I "should" work with him (will be allowed to work with him?) but regardless, right now I feel a lot of relief.

love,
Jones

By the way, thanks Froggie and LL! xxx

Hey DF!

I should clarify that we didn't actually DO the EMDR The first session was just the preparation (identifying a self-belief and a memory and a safe place and so on), and when I dug my heels in on actually doing the EMDR in the second session he just backed off it and told me it was my choice and we did other stuff instead.

But I have done some before with Curly T, my T-before-last, and it was ok. To me it felt a bit impersonal and lonely - that very clinical feeling, for sure - but I think the results were probably pretty good. I don't know, it's hard for me to say because for me I don't have intrusive memories or anything, they try to use it to tackle certain self-beliefs, and I ended up not even being sure what the self-belief was we were working on. Meh. But my general mental health did improve a lot over that time, and now I can hardly even remember those memories if I try, they don't feel real (which adds to my mixed feelings, but I guess it's good). Also Curly-T left almost immediately after we did this, which really didn't help with the clinical-operation feeling.

It's that feeling that made me very resistant to this with Manatee. Partly because we barely even have a relationship yet, so it made him feel like some kind of surgeon to me and I was uncomfortable with it. So I was really glad he then made space for relationship stuff instead.

But we might do it soon.... I'll let you know how it goes.

xxxJ

jones. this sounds so good. i am so pleased for you. and that he is able, after such a short time, to sense your resistance to the emdr, and not push. and also, i LOVE that at that time he asked what you were feeling about him and the therapy. FOR ME...THAT opening up of the here and now is SO KEY!!

it brings up so much for me, and is one thing i found extremely helpful, although hard at times, in the dbt therapy.

i, too, know that gender plays a big role in my t. women, just don't work so well. i feel afraid. men, i just feel that i can trust them more.

sounds like you are more comfortable with men, and are aware of the potential for uncomfortable transference. something i was not aware of with t1, who was my age and male. that ended for other reasons, but, this paternal transference i feel now FEELS ok. very present, but, comfortable. we have discussed it. he knows i feel it, and, i think he uses it to re-parent me. so, i guess what i am saying to you...is you are experienced with t to know that transference will arise, and to be prepared for it.

too, i love that screening process....yes, getting through a few sessions with out saying anything stupid (the t) IS huge. mine told me early on, that he may disappoint me at times, and that it was ok to talk about it. and THAT, was so comforting, and probably the biggest thing that told me i may have a winner. so, i think those early signs are key...and i know in the past i have ignored things with a t i should have paid attention to...t3 said early on, in a joking manner, that 'i did not want to get on her bad side'. a really stupid thing to say, but, with her being a woman, i took it to heart. and it proved true. one confrontation about how i feel she handled something wrong, and it was ALL OVER....terminated. a blessing in disguise, but, i went on for months ignoring the discomfort my unconscious was aware of.

so, sounds like you are fully present and comfortable...i think 2011 looks good for many of us...so glad your t seems so promising!! yippee for you!! jill

Jones,

I'm glad that Manatee has backed off with the EMDR if you aren't feeling comfortable with it. I too have experienced it as lonely and impersonal at times. I can really see how it would feel that way if used with the regular standard protocol.

It sounds like things are going well with this new T relationship and I'm really pleased for you!

Thanks DF, Jill, STRM. It's good to see you guys.

After posting this I kind of crashed, I've had a useless wasted day. Whoever thought that doing nothing could be so exhausting. Now I think I just want get fully stuck in to the EMDR, do it as fast as possible, because who knows how long it will take to stop me being so hopeless! But it's more than a week till I have a next session because of a public holiday here. I feel like all this stuff is surging inside and I can't DO anything with it.

My husband is really digging his heels in on going back to couples work, he doesn't want to right now, which means maybe never, and I'm feeling like I really want him beside me in this in some way. Instead he's started acting like Manatee is a threat, doesn't want me to get obsessive or dependent, but I HAVEN'T yet, I really haven't.

DF I'm with you on the guided imagery. I'm suggestible in the same way and some part of my brain always has to look for the ugly version of what's described!

But I forgot that installing bit - we haven't done that yet.

Jill I am appalled that T3 said that, even in jest. Jokes say plenty, huh. No wonder you were scared of her, she threatened you. I'm really glad you have found someone nice to work with.

STRM, that's really interesting you have felt the lonely and impersonal part too. I wonder if it's a very common response. I just found a book on google books with a couple of transcripts of sessions and that has reassured me a bit about my 'am I doing it right?' anxiety. Both clients in the transcripts expressed that too. Maybe i'm not supposed to know that that's normal...

Yeah, Manatee feels like the right place to be. But I guess now that some bit of me has decided that, all this other stuff is looming, pressure of conflict coming, pressure of the feelings I've not been able to work with on my own.

xxxJones

quote:

STRM, that's really interesting you have felt the lonely and impersonal part too. I wonder if it's a very common response. I just found a book on google books with a couple of transcripts of sessions and that has reassured me a bit about my 'am I doing it right?' anxiety. Both clients in the transcripts expressed that too. Maybe i'm not supposed to know that that's normal... Roll Eyes

I know when I did the fuller protocol (we do modified for me due to DID) that I sometimes felt like I wasn't doing it right because either it felt like nothing was happening or I felt so distant from my T. Now when we do the modified she just uses hand taps on either my knees or shoulders and I'm always sitting right with her so I feel much more connected to her while doing it. Otherwise I felt like I was drifting away by myself.

I'm sorry that your husband doesn't want to work with you right now. My husband is jealous of my T as well and he hates that I tell her things and not him. It makes him feel very insecure and he says it is unnatural to be that close to someone outside the family. Hopefully your husband will come around.

I'm sorry it is hard for you right now and you have a longer break from T than normal. (((hugs)))

Jones, thank you for posting all this. I have been very much up to my neck with my own process so only found some time today to read the whole thread. I wanted to say that I hope it goes well with this new T and that from what you write, all the necessary things are in place. It could be a fascinating relationship unfolding deep insight into your self. I wish you all the best with it.

I hesitate to say anything, as I feel I have nothing brilliant to say. I only thought it might be useful to know that I have an EMDR therapist and she did not touch the EMDR process until session three and then rested on session four, and keeps building up the safety and feelings of being safe and looked after well in the space. I am finding it brings up lots of old memories and images and especially body memories, really strongly and I am glad that I have sweetP as well to process some of that stuff with.

I know it can feel very hard to do = it is not as 'obvious' at the time, that work is being done, .....

I read today that you crashed a bit. I think that must be fairly normal when launching into a new therapeutic relationship, there will be days when internally we are just wiped out with the intensity of it all.

My EMDR therapist now holds my hand if I start feeling lost and alone in the session, (being lost and alone is part of my history - so NOT good to go back to those feelings for long ) and that helps.

take care, and hope today has felt a bit better.

Jones, it's good to hear from you as I've been wondering how things were going with Manatee. I was pretty shocked to read that he wanted to do EMDR with you as I know the relationship is still new to you. I guess I didn't realize you had done this before with curly T. My oldT was pushing EMDR on me to be done with "D" and that is part of a big disruption we had because I would not consider it, especially with a female T that I would not feel comfortable with.

Anyway, I am glad to hear that you stood up for yourself and that he backed away from it to do other things with you. Maybe you need more time to feel safe in the relationship before delving into the EMDR. Was using EMDR part of the agreement to see him? Did you know he would want to do this with you? Was it something that your art-T was working towards with you? I'm a bit confused as to how you got to the point of EMDR so quickly.

I hope your unsettled feelings settle down until you can see Manatee again and work through them. Please keep us posted. I will be thinking of you.

Best,
TN

Hi STRM,

My husband gets jealous too and I was scared about working with a man for this reason. But he *did* give his ok, and we were able to discuss it more last night and he told me he just needs some reassurance. It's hard because we are not getting much time together at the moment but if we keep talking maybe it will be okay. I just like it when therapy is something we are both working on, because it's important to me, and I feel a bit abandoned that he doesn't want to at the moment. It makes me question whether I really need it or am just... I don't know, malingering or something! Or just trying to get my intimacy needs met outside the relationship.

quote:

I think that must be fairly normal when launching into a new therapeutic relationship, there will be days when internally we are just wiped out with the intensity of it all.

Sadly, thank you for saying this, it was just comforting to read. It's hard to allow myself the space for this process, and I wonder if it's just an escape from the real things I need to deal with in my life.

I would like to get to the stage with Manatee that I can explain about the lost and alone feeling before we do the EMDR.

Hi TN,

I can understand why you didn't want to jump into this with D. I didn't find the process itself traumatic with Curly T but something about the process of the process calls up fear and resistance in me. I know that doesn't make much sense.... Just going *towards* those feelings feels wrong.

I think you are right that I need a bit more time before I am ready with Manatee, but last session helped a lot. Actually his being ready to plunge right into it also helped, although I couldn't go there. We began our work together with me feeling extremely frustrated and impatient about wasted time with Art T, and STILL not having any traction on the issues most important to me.

So through the EMDR prep he very quickly showed me that he has a way to move forward with that stuff, and confidence that it will help me, and that he has the skills to address my fears about it. So when he was bringing up stuff to prep the EMDR I got really mad, I was saying "I have to go and DO STUFF after this!!" (I didn't want to get really upset and then have to deal with my real life activities) and he just was very clear that it was important and that he wasn't going to leave me in that space. And he didn't. So on one level it helped me feel safe, and sort of like I could trust him to be in charge... and on another it freaked me out (is he going to 'treat' me and then kick me out?) but that feeling dissipated a lot after the next session, when he let me slow the pace and made space to address the relationship.

I knew he was EMDR trained, and figured it might be part of what we do. Curly T was in the same practice, don't forget, so he has all her notes and knew a lot about the times I did it with her, and that it wasn't unfamiliar to me. I think she had planned to do more of it, had she not left. Art T wasn't trained in EMDR, so like pretty much everything I did with Curly T, it just got dropped (partly, with other things, because she didn't bother with reading the notes till things started to go badly). Manatee is kind of picking up where Curly T left off in some ways, but I already feel like he's more experienced and trust-worthy even than she was - she was pretty good but he is less wobbly/curly.

love,
Jones

I meant to say, too, that the way he opened up the relationship area was really cute. He said "So, okay, let me ask... how are you feeling about "the therapist" at the moment...? I mean... me?"

It was just sort of funny and light, stopped it being too confrontational.

I just wanted to post my insight for the week.

I realised that a lot of the tension and fear I was feeling about EMDR was actually termination fear, and fear of change. That if I actually address my stuff and get better then I won't be able to stay in therapy and won't get the on-going support that I want. At another level this is sort of fear that if I get better, if I start living more out of how I want things to be, rather than my sadness and hurts, I will be alone, isolated. It's like a message that I can only be myself and be recognised and have companionship through hurts and pain.

The fear is becoming less scary as I think of *all* the stuff I still want to work on in therapy, lol. And give myself permission to be there. Is T going to kick me out? Logically I can see that if I still have stuff of substance that I still want to work on, probably not. And if I take myself and my life and my desires to live better seriously, then there is plenty I still want to do. It is (probably) my choice and it is okay to want more.

I'm also wondering about this feeling that I will be kicked out, noticing how strong it is and wondering where else I might have it but not see it in my life.

Love,
Jones