It makes perfect sense to me why you would cry about that. Imagining a safe place is basically trying to evoke a sense of safety that you've rarely had and often sorely lacked. So I would think it would bring up that sense of loss and sadness for not having had more safety in your life. I'm not so thrilled with your T's reaction. It seems like giving empathy and letting you feel the sadness would have probably been more therapeutic. Maybe you could bring up next time how you would have liked your T to respond differently?

Yep, one of the doctors at work did some NLP with the receptionists and I sat in, I ended up having to partner the doctor and we had to talk about a good memory or safe place. I spoke of my grandmother and broke down, I hated it, but it was the last place I remember being really safe and "happy" I was 11 and she died later that year. I can totally relate.

Hey Lampers - just passing through and I wanted to say yes, this happened to me too for similar reasons - at the time I just felt so far away from any safe place, and nowhere I could remember or imagine felt like that to me. Curly T backed right off EMDR and it took us ages to get back to that point. Happened again with Manatee and we just slowed down until I had something ok. It took some weeks, as far as I remember. I suspect this is not so uncommon for people who are dealing with longer-term issues.

Interestingly I recall the reaction of both was similar to what you describe - neither reacted much or gave some big sympathetic thing (which I wanted) but stayed focused and pushed for the positive before putting it aside for a while. Now I'm thinking there may be a few reasons for that but it could be worth you asking her directly instead of me speculating because there are so many possibilities. One is that T may not know at all what a big and different thing it is for you to let your feelings out like that. Alternatively, another is that she may have the idea that for some clients or for you specifically a big sympathetic reaction could actually scare you away, feel intrusive or yucky and so on. Another may be that for EMDR it is important to push a little bit further to lay the seeds for the safe place, even while the tears are happening. I really am speculating/guessing here and I think it is important to follow up on this.

I also had the sense that I was doing it all wrong, and needed to repeatedly share that with Ts around EMDR because it became a real road block for me (again, I think this is a normal part of the process for some people).

All that aside, I want to say - kudos to you for feeling your feelings in that moment. There is something very very beautiful and special about that, and I know it doesn't come easy or without a long journey to that point. Sending you a huge hug.

Lamplighter! Please don't be ashamed of your tears, they're a beautiful, natural part of what makes us human! Although, I wish I could practise what I preach!

If your T has a problem with tears, then she's in the wrong job!

I'm always here for you, we all are! Don't forget that!

Hi LL,
So sorry that session went like that. Id have felt unseen and unheard, and like I was disappointing T. I kind of feel like you were set up in a way. First you are expected to pretend to feel safe, and then your sadness was pushed aside as a wrong or unwanted response.

I have had two different experiences with EMDR. First with an experienced trauma specialist, there was no imagining a safe place. Her therapy room was safe: a cozy, comfy, room in her home that looked out on her gardens. She made me feel safe by explaining the neuroscience behind my symptoms, being generous with hugs, supporting touch, blankets and warm smiles, and having therapy dogs in session ( if I wanted) who were loving and protective. EMDR didnt start until that had been established. My second experience was with someone who had level 2 training but little experience, and whom I had just met (not a trauma specialist). T#2 started the session asking me to imagine a safe place - a container that would be safe from everything that was hurting me. I tried, but it was impossible. I wasn't safe and she wanted me to pretend (lie) that I was. She tried the EMDR which was useless. I really think the safety needs to be authenticly felt in our bodies, not something imagined. But that may be me. I just couldn't pretend away my very real fear.

If I had been there with your saddness, I would've offered you warm compassion. Those tears were genuine. You must have touched something quite real. Hugs!! KD

LL... I'm truly sorry you had that experience. I think it was great that you could be in touch with those feelings that produced the tears. I have cried over things like talking about a safe place. My oldT's office felt like a safe place until I lost it and I still grieve for that farmhouse to a certain extent. It is the grief and loss that you are feeling which I think it healthy. I think your P should have handled it better by stopping the EMDR and just addressing what was happening.

When working on my being able to feel safe with my T he often reminds me that it's not a PLACE that keeps me safe but HIM that keeps me safe. It's the people not the place. And so I wonder if you are not yet feeling safe enough with your new P to be able to do the EMDR. It's not that you are a failure in anyway... we all have our own timetables for safety and trust. I also think that it takes a really long time to get to this place of trust. It has taken me 26 months of twice per week therapy to feel safe with T.

I wish your P had shown more empathy. But I think you need to talk to her about what happened. I don't remember why you decided to do EMDR but I think you have not been with P very long and maybe you are just not ready. Be kind to yourself over this.

Sending you lots of hugs and support
TN

Thanks so much BLT, Scars, Jones (nice to see you again!), Onceweek, Katiedid and TN. Your support and validation of these tears means a huge amount to me . If only T could have done the same all would have been different .

I’m in big danger of feeling massive shame about having cried yesterday – the inevitable kickback – and feeling pretty hostile towards T as a result. So I am seeing all the things she did and said wrong and all the things she could and should have said and done right that she didn’t...

quote:

Imagining a safe place is basically trying to evoke a sense of safety that you've rarely had and often sorely lacked. So I would think it would bring up that sense of loss and sadness for not having had more safety in your life.

BLT this nicely explains exactly what must have been going on, it certainly resonates with me. And it seems so obvious, why didn’t she get it? She’s the T she’s supposed to know and understand these things. And you’re right about her giving some empathy and letting me go with the tears would have been more therapeutic – as it is she’s set back a huge amount any burgeoning trust I might have been making myself feel, by effectively ignoring my tears except insofar as they were ‘getting in the way’ of establishing a safe place . Not calculated to make me feel safe and trusting at all. Thank you for pointing that out – it’s helped me realize why I was feeling so crap about the session.

Scars it sounds like you’re describing the same thing – it’s all about loss. I suppose T did say that, but it was all so cold and detached and impersonal. I’m sorry about your grandmother and the fact that that was the last time you felt safe and happy. That’s so sad

Jones! Thank you for dropping by. What you say does make a lot of sense, and gives me a different perspective about her possible reasons for being so indifferent and unempathic. I very much need to see this T positively and so maybe if there is a valid therapeutic reason for the way she was, that might help me feel less unheard and invalidated and a failure. Interesting that EMDR caused you problems on the doing it wrong front – I can very much relate to that. Thank you for such lovely praise about my crying, I’m not sure I share your view it all felt a bit out of control really, like I couldn’t help it rather than that I felt secure enough to show the tears. And you can bet that I’ll now be doubly defended against tears showing up in the future .

Onceweek thank you for being supportive of my crying too . Yeah it rather worries me that T isn’t too good with the tears – she keeps repeating that being able to feel in therapy is what it’s all about, but she’s not doing anything to make me feel safe or my feelings welcomed. She’s a clinical psychologist and very much CBT – so her bent is more cognitive/rational than emotional, but I’d have thought even a cbt T has to know about and understand the role of feelings in therapy. I dunno, it’s all crap at the moment...

Katiedid thank you too. Yes you’re right, I did feel a bit ambushed – the whole thing of my tears getting in the way of creating a safe place really upset me more than I realized at the time. Ohhhh I love your description of your first trauma T – that makes perfect sense on every count. Funny I was just thinking about the rooms my T uses, as it is yesterday we were in a different room from her normal therapy room (which is just a characterless room in a professional house, used by any number of other Ts and so isn’t HER room specifically) and that itself threw me, doing a safe place exercise in an unfamiliar room which was also not very warm or cosy... she doesn’t seem to have any idea about how to make the environment itself safe and welcoming. Your second EMDR T sounds a lot like my T at the moment – all text book by rote and completely ignoring the human emotional element in it all. I hope you’re still with the first T and not the second!

TN thanks for your comments too. The more I hear about your T, the more I envy you. He just seems to say and do all the right things, doesn’t he? The whole thing of the relationship itself being the safe ‘place’ is so very obvious isn’t it? And I don’t feel safe with this T and I wouldn’t feel safe with her for a very long time anyway, no matter how wonderful she might be and so yeah she’s pushing me to do things without setting in place important prerequisites. Stuff like yesterday is not helping either . I've only seen her 14 times and while she has accepted that it will be long term therapy with me (two years average) she did put on my treatment plan letter that she envisaged the therapy being 'at least 30 sessions' so I expect she's working according to typical CBT short term intensive action oriented structure rather than a proper humanistic establishing a relationship structure...

Sounds like everyone does understand this issue of crying when thinking of something positive or safe – you know for bloody years I’ve believed it’s something wrong with me (and still do really, given T’s reaction yesterday) feeling like I have major issues because I can’t feel positive or happy without it tapping into major pain and tears.

ANY positive memory makes me want to cry, even things I remember from the recent past. So I shut down on it all and I guess then it’s no wonder I feel like a miserable old cow all the time, I’ve got no good memories or happy thoughts to refer to just pain pain and more pain even with the apparent good stuff.

I wish to god T had understood this, I did try and explain it but I’m not sure she heard any of what I said. I do feel like she made me experience myself as a failure and that has just added to my defensive hostility. She witters on about finding a safe place but she’s not doing anything to make me feel safe with her, so it’s not likely to happen is it. Yeah I’m going to have to talk to her about this aren't I, otherwise it will just fester and with a Christmas break coming up I’ll just end up writing her off as another usual useless T

Thanks again everyone for the support and understanding

LL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lamplighter:

[QUOTE]
Onceweek thank you for being supportive of my crying too . Yeah it rather worries me that T isn’t too good with the tears – she keeps repeating that being able to feel in therapy is what it’s all about, but she’s not doing anything to make me feel safe or my feelings welcomed. She’s a clinical psychologist and very much CBT – so her bent is more cognitive/rational than emotional, but I’d have thought even a cbt T has to know about and understand the role of feelings in therapy. I dunno, it’s all crap at the moment...

I would tend to agree with you! Being a therapist of any kind involves working with vulnerable and distressed people. Emotions and their expression are integral to everything, if she doesn't understand that then she is giving you a very poor service in my opinion!

She also seems to be contradictory. Telling you emotions are important and then her not being comfortable with them! How long have you been with her? Please look after yourself! Remember, I am here for you as we all are!

sorry end of quote by 'moment'

Hey Lampers. Big hug for you. It's really really scary to go through these phases of therapy, really unable to know at your core whether this person is trustworthy or not, needing to invest in them but getting that sickening feeling at every turn that maybe THIS is the evidence they are not up to it, will let you down, leave you alone with no way forward. It's a really tough ride, really tough. I know for me when I'm there it's like - this constant nagging question, deep down - are you safe are you safe are you safe?

And it's impossible to know until so much of the work of therapy is already done. The only comfort I can think of is that you get to choose at each step whether you take the risk of the next step or not. And more importantly, this: whether or not the T is doing it right, you can still move forward in your own journey. I see your crying that way - you were able for that time to give yourself the space to feel, and that was the next step for you. Maybe it's okay that it didn't feel in control for that time. And you are still you, still ok, at least, in the big picture basically as ok as you were before. You felt what you felt, saw your own pain, and it didn't destroy you.

Now you know I can be a bit of a Pollyanna, so please ignore this stuff if it's not helpful to you right now. But in case it IS helpful, I want to just propose some of the reasons a T may not give a very verbally sympathetic response to tears. First though - none of this invalidates that you felt like you weren't being cared for. You have that feeling, it's painful and it's real. But if you can allow that feeling inside you, it might also be possible to entertain the idea that something else may have been going on inside her other than not caring. Some of those possibilities are:
-T may want to give you space to feel, and may have the feeling that a reaction would quickly shut down a feeling, even if it's a sympathetic reaction
-T may have the feeling that verbal empathy would be intrusive, and could cause you to need to defend yourself
-T may have the feeling that verbal empathy would rush the attachment between you, and make you feel too vulnerable too quickly in the coming weeks
-T may not know that tears are unusual for you, or that you have a sense of things being not okay in the crying (believe it or not, not everyone feels that way with tears)
- T may be caught up in a strongly non-verbal empathetic feeling herself, be unable to find words, and/or not realise it is inadequate to the moment for you
- T may feel that there is something important to be gained from keeping the focus intellectual at that moment (i.e. an important concept is in play, or she is trying to titrate the feeling, knowing that empathy right now would heighten the feeling)

I'm pretty sure there are other possibilities I haven't thought of/don't know about. And of course, one of the possibilities is that she is cold, uncaring and untrustworthy. I'm not suggesting you throw away that idea - I think it's important to keep it close by you - but it could help if you can keep some of the others in mind too (at least until you talk to her about this).

*Edited to reiterate: IF one of those possibilities WAS happening for her, it would not make your experience (of feeling uncared for) wrong, and her right. Instead, it would mean that there was a gap between two different experiences - a gap that is generating painful feelings for you. The only way to cross that kind of gap is by communicating. In the best case, she would come to understand what the feeling was like for you, and would take steps to try to make sure that you are not left feeling that way alone again. This is the work of therapy (and any close relationship) and it actually takes many many gap-crossings to establish intimacy and trust between two people.

One of the reasons I want to raise all those possibilities is because ultimately with Manatee, the verbal empathy/sympathy/reassurance he offered me was very very minimal. It drove me crazy at first. And he certainly never gave me the big verbal expressions of feeling, empathic response, reassurance that TN's lovely T gives (hugs TN). But it's just another style, and in the end it was a really successful therapy for me, and I now feel attached to him and proud of the work we did and how things changed for me through that. In the end I learned to hold in mind that although I might feel insecure about what he was feeling, I really didn't know. And I learned to hear the subtleties in what he was doing and saying - the small details that added up to a deeply caring approach. It took time and patience and many many upheavals and repairs (me throwing myself back in there and saying what was upsetting me, and hearing him out, even when I never wanted to see him again) to be able to see it that way.

Take care LL - we're all behind you.

Jones

Thanks again for your support Onceweek .

Jones! Thank you too for taking the time to think about this and post some more .

Lol as for being Pollyanna-ish, I’ve taken recently to thinking that that’s actually a damn good way to be. Makes life a lot more pleasant and positive, looking for the good in everything, and only occasionally getting smacked in the face with a wet fish, as opposed to looking for bad everywhere and only rarely stumbling across the good. Some kind of inverse Murphy’s law... So no apologies for presenting a more positive interpretation of things!

Anyway, I read carefully through your suggestions and found myself going, nope nope nope the cow was just plain dismissing my tears as if they were a problem, an issue, getting in the way of the ‘work’... and thought, yeah right, this is me bringing forty years’ worth of repressed anger into the moment. Your suggestions are perfectly valid and quite feasibly an accurate reflection of what was going on. I won't know until I ask, and yeah, that's the gap-crossing you describe.

Truth is, I think I was feeling ashamed about my tears (not something I recognize, but I can feel something ick and threatening going on in the background) and my automatic and instantaneous response to shame or shame based feelings is to get defensively hostile and look to blame. See I allowed myself to hope that she would be understanding of my tears and she just wasn’t, or didn’t show me any understanding, and so I experienced myself as having committed the cardinal sin of exposing this bottomless pit of emotional need (even if only very briefly) – should have known better, all my fault, did I really think anyone could give a shit about my pain blah blah I’m sure this kind of background litany isn’t unknown to you .

So yeah, while I’ll just have to wait until I speak to her to find out what was actually going through her mind during the session, I am aware that chances are her reasons for the way she spoke and acted are 99% likely to be well intentioned and not as negative as I experienced. So that part of the problem is sort of on hold until Thursday.

quote:

It's a really tough ride, really tough. I know for me when I'm there it's like - this constant nagging question, deep down - are you safe are you safe are you safe?

Absolutely! I’m always testing, and I know I am, and it’s all because that question is ever present in the background. I am trying really hard with this T not to test and judge every single thing she says and does that’s wrong or not what I expect – trying for a bit of blind faith for a change. But it is hard when I don’t even feel safe inside my own head.

Thanks for sharing about Manatee and how he came across and that despite the absence of verbal reassurances and comfort you still managed to attach and do good work. I'm impressed. It's SUCH a pity that you don't have the time to post more often here, I'd have loved to have heard more about your therapy .

quote:

And I learned to hear the subtleties in what he was doing and saying - the small details that added up to a deeply caring approach

Hm ok I take your word for this – for the life of me though I can’t think what those details might be – and even less can I imagine a deeply caring approach being my T’s thing. But then I’m not too good on the ‘recognizing when someone cares about me’ front anyway...

I do like your comment about my still being able to move forward in my own journey regardless of whether T is doing it right or wrong. Each time something like this comes up, I do learn more about myself and it is effectively taking steps forward. I do get a bit tired though of feeling like I’m doing it on my own, DESPITE my Ts, as opposed to WITH them. Just this time I’d like to do some positive therapy rather than the negative therapy I seem to specialize in .

Thanks again Jones for coming back to help me out some more.

LL

(((LL)))

I just want to say, first of all, that I am so happy for you that the tears were finally flowing in therapy because I know what a struggle it's been for you. But, I'm sorry your new T wasn't more sensitive. It does sound like she was quite removed from what was going on for you. I'm also sorry that you felt such shame about responding the way you did.

quote:

See I allowed myself to hope that she would be understanding of my tears and she just wasn’t, or didn’t show me any understanding, and so I experienced myself as having committed the cardinal sin of exposing this bottomless pit of emotional need (even if only very briefly) – should have known better, all my fault, did I really think anyone could give a shit about my pain blah blah I’m sure this kind of background litany isn’t unknown to you .

This was so touching. I hope you can share this with her when you see her next.

You know I've been to hell and back with my T and wanted to share a similar story with you that happened before his "conversion". The day finally came when I was going to tell my T about my trauma. He sat there looking all clinical with his glasses on - he doesn't usually wear them - and instead of responding compassionately, he fired questions at me as if he was working from a checklist.

I felt like I was on trial. It was horrible. I went home and left a voicemail for him that I'd just shared the most intimate detail of my life with him and there was absolutely no empathy from him whatsoever.

He has apologized over and over again and said if he could change the way he reacted, he would. The only comment that has given me some insight into what was going on for him was the following: "I could be the best diagnositican in the world but .... " I forget exactly what he said after that but it was clear to me that he was, in fact, completely disconnected from me in that moment and yes, mentally going down a checklist to see how many symptoms I had.

So, well, what is my point? She might have been completely disconnected from you because she wasn't getting it. (Or she could be a bona fide cold fish.) Don't mistrust your perceptions. Just mistrust the meaning you extract from your perceptions. And mistrust the shame you feel. You didn't do anything wrong. You are there for help. You are doing what you are supposed to be doing.

As far as my T is concerned, I think he was at a point then of feeling confident about what he was doing (a little overconfident - by his own admission), perhaps not feeling challenged. I do think he was in a bit of a rut, doing things by rote. Maybe he was protecting himself too much emotionally because of the challenges and stresses that come along with being a therapist.

Maybe it was all those things combined but I think you believe he cares about me. And, yes, he screwed up a crucial moment that probably would have sent almost anyone else running for the hills.

But regardless of what was going on in that moment with your T, I do hope you will talk to her about how it made you feel anyway. She needs to know how it affected you. Maybe she is unaware of how she was coming across.

quote:

verbal empathy/sympathy/reassurance he offered me was very very minimal. It drove me crazy at first. And he certainly never gave me the big verbal expressions of feeling, empathic response, reassurance that TN's lovely T gives (hugs TN).

Jones...this really made me smile because for years I have repeatedly accused my T of being UNempathic and cold, cruel and distant. I have told him he is the furthest anyone could be from warm and fuzzy. I told him that he treated me like a specimen and not a person and he could not understand my pain at all. Yup. He responded by telling me I have criticized him more than any other patient he ever had. In fact, he was gifted a big red button by a friend of mine that says "This IS me being empathetic"

It was me who was unable to feel or recognize his empathy and take it in and to accept that he cared for me. I was just not ready back then and I blocked everything. I'm only beginning now to feel and recognize his empathy.

TN

Hey Lampers - it's lovely to hear more from you.

quote:

Anyway, I read carefully through your suggestions and found myself going, nope nope nope the cow was just plain dismissing my tears as if they were a problem, an issue, getting in the way of the ‘work’... and thought, yeah right, this is me bringing forty years’ worth of repressed anger into the moment. Your suggestions are perfectly valid and quite feasibly an accurate reflection of what was going on. I won't know until I ask, and yeah, that's the gap-crossing you describe.

Truth is, I think I was feeling ashamed about my tears (not something I recognize, but I can feel something ick and threatening going on in the background) and my automatic and instantaneous response to shame or shame based feelings is to get defensively hostile and look to blame. See I allowed myself to hope that she would be understanding of my tears and she just wasn’t, or didn’t show me any understanding, and so I experienced myself as having committed the cardinal sin of exposing this bottomless pit of emotional need (even if only very briefly) – should have known better, all my fault, did I really think anyone could give a shit about my pain blah blah I’m sure this kind of background litany isn’t unknown to you.

This is really interesting. Are you saying that what you're hearing here, when you feel her judgement and dismissal so clearly, is a form of your own dismissal of yourself? So it's like - because it's very hard for you to imagine being caring and compassionate about your own pain, it's also very hard to imagine that that could possibly be what is filling her silence?

I'll try to say a bit more about Manatee here. My apologies if it's a bit of a sidetrack to the thread - I don't want to take over, but also don't feel up to opening a new thread right now, hope that is okay. But I'm happy to share.

The details I came to understand as caring - well, I don't think they would necessarily be the same for any therapist, I think different people express caring in different ways. But for me with him it was/is stuff like - he remembers my stuff - basically all of it. That was important to me and a big sign for me right from the beginning of the relationship. Now I drop in once every few weeks and he still remembers all my stuff.

Often he uses the little comments in therapy to do big work, like, at a time when I am grappling with whether he's going to forget me, he'll drop in that he was thinking of me in some other context. When we finished, rather than say 'you and I are attached, we are in each other's hearts, we will always have a relationship...', etc, he said 'I know it seems like I am not upset, but for me when I say goodbye to people - like, my family, close friends and stuff - I just feel like they're still around and we'll see each other again, we'll bump into each other or we can just get back in touch when the feeling comes up'. So, super casual, but the message is there. And each time I have gone back to see him he says something like 'I'm glad you feel comfortable just dropping in when you feel like it,' in a way that I know he means it.

Sometimes it's non-verbal, like if I sat in the far-away chair or leaned back when it was hard to stay connected he would sometimes lean forward.

Or it might be indirect but kind of loaded, like we were talking about how he hadn't been there for me once when I was really really upset and trying to reach him. He talked about feeling stuck about being unable to help me in the way I wanted, he mentioned what it's like when you hear a baby crying but can't pick it up for some reason. That one comment did a huge amount of work in our relationship, just to know he could feel it like that, which was so entirely different to how I had experienced his lack of being there.

But I don't know that much of this is helpful to you Lampers, because these are the signs of care that came after 18 months of working together, there's no way he would have said even these things towards the beginning. At the beginning I was mostly just full of confusion and uncertainty too. And a lot of the relationship building actually happened through him failing me, over and over again in quite major ways, and what happened when I took my anger and hurt and disappointment to him. Which was that every time he heard me very openly and non-defensively, explained what was happening for him, apologised (mostly) and (occasionally) stayed strong in certain things that I hated (boundaries of one sort or another), and otherwise really attended to what I said I needed.

It only looks good from here on the repair side. On the rupture side it totally sucked, almost the whole way through. But I kept going back and telling him over and over where it was failing, and I got a huge amount of growth and healing from that.

Gotta go - I hope there is something of use to you here. More big hugs!

J

((((((( Liese )))))))) Thank you so much for posting .

quote:

Don't mistrust your perceptions. Just mistrust the meaning you extract from your perceptions.

Liese this makes so much sense – and it might seem obvious once it’s said but it’s something I need reminding of. You’re so right, I tend to mistrust my actual perceptions but they aren’t actually wrong are they, it’s the way I’m interpreting what I perceive that could be wrong. So yeah, I perceived her as not responding to me in a way that would have made me feel safe (lol!) and accepted, and that’s not wrong. It’s the reasons why she responded in the way she did that are at issue. LOL except of course my whole being is saying warning warning run away run away danger threat red alert… and it’s very difficult to undo an interpretation that’s been made based on fear – it FEELS right . And familiar .

Thanks for sharing about your T. Yes now I do believe that your T cares about you, he’s shown it in so many different ways (well ok, you’ve described it in so many different ways, it’s got to be for real .) And I know it took you a looooooong time to get him to take your pain seriously so yeah, if there’s a message in here for me it’s to keep on trusting that sooner or later I will get T to understand me. I don’t think I can lay any blame at her feet this time because this is such a repetitive thing with all the Ts I’ve seen that I just have to assume some blind faith in therapy and in my T in particular and keep on going. God I wish it didn’t have to be like this!!!!!!!!

And thank you for being happy that I could cry in therapy, you’re right there too, I’d kind of overlooked it but it is more or less the first time I’ve had tears out of control like that. Lol is that a good thing????? Only joking...

Thanks again for replying Liese .

LL

TN that’s a salutary reminder too, that it did take you a long time to get to this point of attachment and trust in your T – now that you mention it I remember how often you’d be posting about how distant and cold and uncaring your T seemed (and that despite all his wonderful words encouraging attachment and giving you so much out of session contact). So really the moral of the story is, give it time, yeah?

(((((( TN )))))))

LL

Jones that is hugely helpful to hear how Manatee showed caring. (It’s one reason I wish more people would post about the actual details of their sessions, that can be so enlightening and helpful.)

All kudos to you for being able to notice and accept those sorts of details, because that takes being able to see beyond your own pain and world view to see what’s going on in the other – something that I’m incapable of at the moment .

quote:

So it's like - because it's very hard for you to imagine being caring and compassionate about your own pain, it's also very hard to imagine that that could possibly be what is filling her silence?

Yes very much so I think. Which is why I said that I’m probably misinterpreting my T’s responses to me. It doesn’t FEEL like it, it feels like she was being an indifferent and uncaring cow and completely wiping out my pain but intellectually I just know that the way I’m experiencing her is more than likely down to my own projections and fears. Which is why I’m constantly giving her the benefit of the doubt and why this time around in therapy I don’t go whinging to her every session with a list of all the things she’s done and said wrong and all the things she’s not done and not said right . But this time I feel shut down so much that I’m going to have to say something, so yeah, rupture alright, let’s hope there’s a repair in there too.

Interestingly I just came across this quote this morning and thought it probably explained why she seemed so cold and dismissive of my tears:

quote:

Creating a Safe Place

If using a real place, try not to use one that has other feelings such as grief or sadness associated with it. You may find that these feelings are activated by the imagery exercise, which will not be helpful (at least not at this time) because the purpose of the exercise is to access feelings of safeness. (From The Compassionate Mind Approach to Recovering from Trauma using Compassion Focused Therapy by Deborah Lee – wow what a mouthful of a title .)

What saddens me and I find hopeless-making, is that everything I come up with creates feelings of sadness (or whatever it is) and so obviously nothing is safe for me. Even scenarios I imagine that aren’t based on a real place make me feel teary. I guess that’s why I posted this thread, wondering if other people had the same responses and how they dealt with it. Because I can’t see me ever finding a safe place at this rate so I’m going to have to find a way of dealing with the tears first. Which is not what T said we’d do – she said we’d go onto trying to build up a positive sense of myself, which while that's exactly what I have written down on my shopping list of ‘things to achieve through therapy’ – I can see already is also going to be all tied up with tears and sadness and loss and the like .

Interesting that you didn’t really take in the signs of Manatee’s caring until well into the therapy. That gives me hope because this time around I’m so determined to make this therapy work, to not run away and not keep building up lists of all the bad things T does, so maybe in 18 months time things will change for me too. Gotta hope so anyway, failing certainty of any kind.

(As an aside, referring back to an earlier thread, I did plough my way through Christopher Germer's book, I have to admit that I still can’t get into the mindfulness/compassion thing, I’ve now worked my way through the Peter Levine body trauma books and think that body awareness is probably going to be more helpful to me at the moment. I just wish I could find something that resonated and that I could actually DO!!!)

Thanks so much Jones for taking the time to post and share,very much appreciated

LL

Hey LL -

Just wanted to say I love this, from both you and Liese:

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Don't mistrust your perceptions. Just mistrust the meaning you extract from your perceptions.


Liese this makes so much sense – and it might seem obvious once it’s said but it’s something I need reminding of. You’re so right, I tend to mistrust my actual perceptions but they aren’t actually wrong are they, it’s the way I’m interpreting what I perceive that could be wrong. So yeah, I perceived her as not responding to me in a way that would have made me feel safe (lol!) and accepted, and that’s not wrong. It’s the reasons why she responded in the way she did that are at issue.

This is so, so accurate and helpful, I think. It's a distinction I've had to come back to over and over again.

As for safe places, I remember having to go through all kinds of things to find one - the worst was my cat, who had died not long before, and really was my safe place before that. Manatee said no to using her!

About noticing and accepting details of caring - I am not sure you can force that before you're ready (not to say you're trying to) but maybe it's more about doing exactly what you're doing - just noticing your interpretations and trying to keep an open mind and check things out, before becoming sure of the interpretation, and even failing that just keep communicating. It's so hard when every instinct is to protect ourselves.

I'd say, too, don't give up on yourself about the safe place or any of this. Growth comes out of nowhere, in ways we don't even expect.

I've given up on the Germer book for now too - really struggling with meditation right now so I've dropped back down to 10 minutes instead of 20, and that seems to be helping a little, though I still don't want to do it at the moment!!

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I don’t think I can lay any blame at her feet this time because this is such a repetitive thing with all the Ts I’ve seen that I just have to assume some blind faith in therapy and in my T in particular and keep on going.

This is interesting to me. I think I had blind faith in my oldT. I just assumed I was supposed to trust her, so I just put myself out there. It turns out I risked too much too soon, and it wound up destabilizing me. This is why I do not recommend blind faith in therapy. You find out if the relationship is safe by testing it, repeatedly. Which means you shouldn't attempt stuff that is too hard for you right away, or share really vulnerable stuff off the bat. But when a rupture or misattunement happens, you go back and talk about it and if your T is understanding and willing to discuss and adjust and fix it, and if they are overall consistent with you, that is what tells you they are trustworthy.

It's funny, I just remembered I also thought my T was unempathic in the beginning, but now I consider it one of the greatest blessings that I have a T who is direct and to the point rather than overly mushy or warm and fuzzy. Not everyone who is compassionate is really overt and effusive about it.

I once read an expert in EMDR saying that in order for EMDR to work, you have to have the positive, resourcing networks in your brain established to help process the trauma. And if you don't *have* those positive experiences to draw from yet, you need to build them first before EMDR can be effective. So maybe that is what your T is getting at. I am not sure.

(((( Jones )))) Yeah Liese really came up with a gem there didn’t she .

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As for safe places, I remember having to go through all kinds of things to find one - the worst was my cat, who had died not long before, and really was my safe place before that. Manatee said no to using her!

I remember you were so supportive of me when my cat died a couple of years ago and obviously understood very well what it’s like to lose a loved animal. A bit of an eye opener to think of using a cat as a safe place though – especially if she’d recently died – maybe you shouldn’t have been surprised that Manatee said no, though if it’s what would have worked for you, well...

Your comment has got me thinking a bit more laterally though (you are good at doing that, provoking my aging brain cells into thinking in different ways ) in that I think I have a very limited and conservative view of what ‘safe place’ means – you know, the typical nature scenes or comfortable room in a house or people (as if!) who are not threatening. It would never have occurred to me to think about animals, or objects even that could make me feel safe by their associations. Must go and have a good think about that now, though T is no longer pursuing the safe place aspect for now.

All credit to you if you’re still managing to do even 10 minutes meditation. I just can’t get into at all at the moment, I figure I’m just not ready. It all seems like so much hard work and I can’t believe that meditation and self compassion is supposed to be so difficult or laborious. Painful yes, but such hard work?

Thanks again for replying Jones, good to see you here again

LL

BLT thanks for sounding a warning here – blind faith in a T is not something I’ve cultivated before now (though I have been deliberately blind to many red flags, all in the hope that I’m wrong and the T really isn’t as crap as I’m experiencing.)

I think what I’m trying to say is that this time I have a fair amount of faith in this T that she does know what she’s doing and so I’m consciously choosing to believe in her in a background sort of way, globally. That’s what I’m calling blind faith, that sense that despite all the moment by moment negatives (of which there are naturally many ) she is still well intentioned and is actually trying to help me. Of course you are right, I won’t really have true faith in her until she’s passed all the tests (again, of which there are many!)

Yes about EMDR. This imagery exercise in last session was setting the scene for EMDR – establishing a safe place to be used for subsequent work. T does do EMDR (and with the proper equipment too, I’m happy to say) but isn’t specifically pushing it on me, it’s just an option for work later on the piece. She was using EMDR equipment to help ‘install’ the safe place and I was quite intrigued by the idea. Pity I cocked it up by not being able to actually come up with a safe place .

So yeah what you’re saying about needing those positive resourcing networks established in the brain in order to process the trauma makes sense, and is I think what T herself was saying about the whole thing. Which is why she said we’d drop the safe place stuff for now because it’s obvious I can’t come up with one and try a different tack which hopefully will help me ultimately establish safety in my head. So she’s doing her best really...

Thanks again to you too for replying

LL

((LL)) Sorry I'm late to this, and I'll admit I haven't had time to read through everything. But I've wanted to post on this for a few days now.

For a long time (and I've been with my T for about 2 1/2 years) I had to use an imaginary safe place, because I didn't have a real one. I had very few good memories of the past, but even those were somehow marred by the bad that would follow. So it would inevitably make me sad to think about. My T and I have created various imaginary safe places over time, and only within the past few months have we established a real safe place to think about (and it's only recent because it is a recent place - nothing from the past).

As far as a T expressing care...well, my T has typically been pretty transparent as far as that goes. But it wasn't always like that...There was a while there at the beginning that I literally could NOT tolerate any expressions of care from her. It would just send me spinning into a dissociative funk. So, I took in her care in little ways. Like Jones mentioned, I was touched by how much she remembered. I listened to the tone of her voice and watched her expression (which, granted, is not often, since it's still hard for me to look at her for long). Her willingness to accommodate my schedule as much as possible was another indicator for me. But for a while, she didn't express her care in words. That was all I could take at the time, but I think she gradually kind of titrated her expression of care until I could tolerate more of it. I know this is a bit different than what you're dealing with, but I thought I'd share in case it helps you to try to notice those things and see if it helps you learn something about your T.

It was a long time before I could cry in therapy. I think maybe close to a year? And even then, it was only a few tears. It's probably taken me the better part of 2 years to really allow myself to cry. But before I cried at all, we talked about it a lot - why I was afraid to cry, why I couldn't cry, etc. So when I finally did shed that first tear, we both knew the significance of it. I wonder if that's where the miscommunication came into play for you (I think others have mentioned this already...sorry).

Anyway, I think I've run out of words for now. Hugs to you - you're doing great work.

Hi LL- I feel badly for you that you got to cry with someone at last, and then experienced it as "doing something the wrong way." That would have made me feel very sad, and I felt sad for you on reading it, because I know to be able to actually cry with someone is bigish deal, really.

Anyway, so I wanted to share that it seems like the T is doing her job, but that it just hurts when they do their job, sometimes, and I want to give you a hug.

Love,

BB

[QUOTE]
ANY positive memory makes me wantto cry, even things I remember from the recent past. So I shutdownonitall andI guess then it’s no wonderI feellike a miserable old cow all the time, I’ve got nogoodmemories orhappy thoughts torefer to just pain pain andmore painevenwith the apparentgoodstuff.
[QUOTE]
((LL)) I like the way you expressed this. In the film "Marvin's Room", Meryl Streep's character tells Matt Damon (playing her son) that her feelings for him are like a bowl of fish hooks; when she brings one up they all come in a tangle.
I go through a lot of life burying my feelings, cause they are too big or problematic. Basically it's not safe to express or feel them. That means all my feelings; I don't get to choose to keep joy and push away sad.... When I let go or am jolted, there's lots of different emotions that show up for me to deal with. An easy example is doing yoga or massage. It feels good, relaxing - but I often end up crying and feeling greif stricken. I struggle with whether to even do those things cabuse I don't know how to handle the emotions. Yet I think its stuff I'm holding and have pushed down that's building up and making me physically tense.
Were you feeling safe enough to cry (before Ts lack of compassion)? I hope you can find the safe place (real not imaginary) to release your pain and make room for more love & joy.
Hugs, KD

(((( Kashley )))) I get what you’re saying about having to find an imaginary safe place, that’s what I’ll probably need to do too. The trouble is even imagining a safe place makes me feel all teary . Really I liked what someone else above said about T’s room and the T relationship becoming a safe place, I think my T has a lot to learn on that front – if SHE were safe, then I’m sure I’d have less problems coming up with a safe place . Sounds like your T understands that, and you. Glad to hear your relationship is so good .

I’m also glad you feel safe enough now to cry with your T – yeah talking about it and processing the difficulties behind crying makes a lot of sense. I’ve only been seeing this T a short time and while I have gone on (at length ) about how hard it is for me to express feelings, I don’t think she’s quite registered what I’ve been saying. So the significance of my actually being able to cry probably didn’t register with her .

Not sure about the caring aspects – I think I’m probably opposite to you in a way, that I would be more attracted to a T who openly stated caring than wanting to run away. Have to say that reading about both your and Jone’s example of T remembering details as an example of caring makes me feel sad because this T doesn’t remember, or at least, only remembers global details not specifics and so that contributes to my feeling not seen/heard. I don’t think I want to sit down just yet and look for those subtle covert examples of caring because I don’t think I’d find any. But it is early days, I keep telling myself anyway.

Thanks Kashley for your reply and also for telling me I’m doing great work, I don’t really feel that so it’s nice to hear someone else say it

LL

Beebs nice to see you back, even if it’s just another fleeting visit .

Yeah I’m sure T was just doing her job, but as you say, that can be painful. Thanks for the hug, one back to you .

LL

KD thank you too. I love the fishing hook analogy, that’s exactly what it feels like happens with me, access one feeling and a whole host of other and often contradictory and opposing feelings seem to hang onto its coat tails. So I end up shutting down because I have no idea what the hell is going on or what it all means .

Also can relate very much to your example of doing yoga/massage – I would love to take myself off to massage regularly, but it’s a bit self defeating because I have to stay tense in order to control the feelings (usually tears) that emerge – bit pointless really . Not to mention extremely embarrassing (more like shaming). I suspect it’s probably A Good Thing, to keep going and get all the body feelings out – but yeah, sounds good on paper, in reality though...

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That means all my feelings; I don't get to choose to keep joy and push away sad....

I totally get this. I was in therapy for a long time with an integrative/relational T who really pushed me to express sadness and joy, but had a strict moratorium on anger. The therapy foundered and failed because she refused to allow my anger into the room, but expected me to access tears. Like you describe, I couldn’t squash the anger without also squashing every other feeling there might have been.

To answer your last question, no I wasn’t feeling safe enough to cry even in the first place, and generally don’t anyway, even alone. I’m not sure what the outcome’s going to be, I see T today in a few hours time and just don’t know anything at the moment. Feel all shut down and detached about it all.


Thank you again everyone, for your replies and support .

LL

Just to update on the therapy side of things (spurred by Jones’ question in Check In thread – thanks Jones .)

Well the session went really well yesterday and I left feeling pretty positive

T apologized for saying that the tears were getting in the way and recognized immediately I mentioned it that it was a negative/inappropriate thing to say. We didn’t talk that much about it though because I was happy that she understood the significance of the tears and my difficulties with establishing a safe place and to be honest I’m fed up with my own negative perceptions and suspicions and just felt like giving her the benefit of the doubt regardless of what I thought.

Another typically long LL sentence .

I think she’s probably well aware of how difficult it is for me to express feelings and that the problems I had with establishing a safe place have shown her even more clearly how difficult all this emotional stuff is for me. She did say, sort of in her defence, that you absolutely need a safe place in EMDR because of the intensity of the processing, you need that place to go to in between EMDR sessions and I can see that. Effectively until and unless I can establish a truly safe place that has no negative feelings associations or connotations (including sadness, loss, grief), EMDR will be out for me.

We didn’t talk any more about the meaning of my tears or loss/grief etc. I don’t know why but the sessions with this T just whizz by and I always end up feeling like I’ve not managed to talk about everything I’d like to – so I’m becoming quite picky about things I do talk about so as not to waste time or go down repetitive roads that I know are likely to be dead ends. This T is much more actively involved in helping me and therefore the old rambling around and around an endless variety of ever changing topics just isn’t useful here – I’m so much more into actually DOING something in sessions now that I consciously try and stop myself from my usual rambling around the houses. Not always successfully .

The upside is that I feel like this therapy really is therapy, with specific goals, active exercises and activities and a structure that T brings to each session that despite sometimes feeling like I’m being railroaded into focusing on things I don’t always see as relevant in the moment, is actually exactly what I need.

Lol this has turned more into an update of my therapy generally than just about resolving the crap Monday session.

Anyway, that’s where I’m at currently. Only two more sessions before T takes a Christmas break, but that’s only for two weeks so not too big a deal. She says.

LL

Thanks for the update LL. I was wondering how it went. Sounds like well. I'm glad.

That's brilliant, LL - I'm so happy to hear it. A therapist who can see where she's gone wrong and apologise!! That is a real asset. And I love that both of you are bringing structure to the sessions by being so focused.

I know it can be frustrating to be all geared up for EMDR and then it doesn't happen. I know it was for me - it took quite a while to get to the point where we could actually do it. But at the same time, it's better if the therapist approaches it in a safe way. I'm glad she seems to be doing this.

Big hug LL - hope it continues to go well, but one thing now is at least you know a repair is possible. I'd also say - if you start to feel bad about this incident again, just bring it back to her - there may be more things you need to discuss there.

xxJones

KD and Jones, thanks so much for responding. Big hugs to you both too

LL