Hugs to you Beebs. Sounds like a wonderful brave and healing thing for you to do - to email him and do it on your terms. I love your Cowboy T - you so deserve him. I think it is a totally OK thing for you to 'demonise' Guru T in all this. I need to do it for my youngT who terminated me but I can't bring myself to do that and it is causing me great pain. I am glad you have broken the tie.

Hey BB,
Just wanted to drop in and say I think it is a really positive step you have made albeit a very difficult and painful one. I hope that within time this decision frees you to do the things you weren't able to do with GuruT. I know how hard it must have been to write and send that email, it shows the remarakable strength within you. I like the sound of Cowboy T and hope that you can continue the good work you have been doing with his support.

I'm sad to hear you say that deep down you know it is your fault as I don't believe that to be true and I hope one day you won't believe it too.
Big hugs
Butterfly

Hi BB,
I think what you did with GuruT was good. But I think you are being to hard in yourself. Nothing was your fault. It's all part of a process to get you to where you are right now. Please be more understanding with yourself like you would be with us.

(((((BB))))

Relationships are so hard to understand, aren't they? My T always says big cog, little cog, as if it were that simple. Maybe it is that simple, I don't know. It's just never been that simple for me. My heart goes out to you BB because I would have all the doubts, the feelings of failure, the questions ... I would have it all, just like you do. And I know how painful all that would be. For me, it would be a total replay of all my childhood issues, feeling rejected yet again, even if I was the one who made the decision to leave. There must have been something that I did wrong to have caused it to come to this.

Our emotions develop first which ensures that bond with our caregivers and increase our chances of survival. When that bond is there, we will accept and overlook bad behavior. You had that bond with GuruT. You needed to have been in that situation, feeling all those feelings but you needed to have those needs honored and GuruT wasn't able to do that. It IS/WAS his limitation. He sounded like a narcissist to me. I know that doesn't make you feel any better. But there are just going to be those people in life who are unwilling to look at what they are bringing to the table and GuruT sounded like one of them. You are in better hands now BB.

((((HUGS)))))

((((BB))))) I'm sorry. I know this must be so hard, but this is also a good step forward for you. As Liese said, you're in better hands.

I do want to say, even though you think that it is your fault, it really isn't. You haven't committed any sort of crime by believing there were things Guru T did wrong, because there definitely were. So many confusing, conflicting messages. He didn't create a safe space you could count on. It doesn't mean he's a bad guy and had nothing valuable to offer you, but he wasn't what you needed, the consistency wasn't there. And none of that was ever your job to manage. Not as a child and not now. Just my two cents.

Phew Beebs when I saw the title of this thread and that you had written it I was really sad thinking you had decided to terminate with Cowboy, so I’m feeling pretty relieved that it wasn’t him after all

Good for you for writing that email to GuruT – that sounds like some sort of closure to me, and even if you’re half hoping that he’ll suddenly want you back and that inside you don’t really feel like it’s all done and dusted, I think having sent the email is a really good thing for you to have done. It’s a step further forward.

It’s so good to hear that you’re doing so much better these days, though it’s still sad that you have this unassuaged pain about GuruT continuing to bring you down. But it sounds like you’re coping with it more and more and maybe right now that’s the best you can hope for. Time, it all takes so much time

Hugs to you ((((((( Beebs )))))))

LL

((((BB)))

I think you have made a really important and positive step forward. I know that it is not without pain and doubts, but you did everything that you could to work with Guru T and you can hold onto the good things that you experienced in the relationship. Nothing can take those away as they are yours to keep forever. You are doing such great work with Cowboy T and I think your ability to have this finality with Guru T is testament to how hard you have worked.

Thank you so much, (((((((((((SD, Butterfly, ND, Liese, Yaku, LL, and STRMS))))))))))))

I don't know, I guess for these months now, I have really and truly been thinking of it as "a break from my T." But I realize that I should not go back to him. At least, most of the time, I am kind of sure that I shouldn't. It wasn't really brave of me, because I did it without really thinking about it or feeling it. I just wrote what I wrote and then pressed "send" and if I could do it over again, I wouldn't do it.

I cannot believe how much I still miss him. The worst part of this is going to be, wondering if he will even acknowledge my email. I'm so scared that he won't even bother to reply to me, and it will be like our work together never existed for him, and that I never even existed for him! I am also very scared, if he doesn't acknowledge my email, that it will mean something terrible has happened to him, and that I will *never know* which one it is...total rejection, or he's dead or something. I'll just always wonder. So I am hoping...I don't know what I am hoping for. I am hoping for a kind email that acknowledges the work we did together, and lets me know that he remembers me, and that I meant at least something to him as a client...even I don't mean much.

(((((BB)))))

(((((BB)))))))

This is such a big step, I am sorry that it's so painful. There has been such a marked difference in you since you started working with your T. I think what you did in terminating with Guru T was an important step, and the right thing to do. It's also totally understandable that you want a response. I hope that he sends you back a positive response so that your fears will be alleviated but know that no matter what happens, I really think you've done the right thing.

And you also matter very much and mean a lot to so many and a lack of response from Guru T, while quite painful for you, will not change that truth.

This was quite courageous.



love, Aglet

Thank you for the hugs, Liese, as I needed that today, and thank you Ag for your comforting words. I feel kind of lost. I hope he will write back to me. Even if it is just to say I owe him a thousand dollars or something. anything.

((Beebs)) Really brave of you to terminate with him. You have taken so many courageous steps in facing Guru T and Cowboy T ("your T" now?).

(((((Kashley and draggers, Ag and Liese)))))))) thank you sweeties! All the cyber hugs really help. I am trying to hold it together.. but now that I have not even heard back from him, (it is day 3) not even an acknowledgement of my email I am wondering if I have just opened myself up for another bout of depression over him. I kind of wish I had left well enough alone, you know? I mean...I guess he probably just thinks this is a repeat of what I did before, and a ploy to get his attention or something, rather than me finding a bit of closure. The thing is, is that I never recognized it as a termination- I was not able to do that. I just told him that I needed a break. Now I did terminate. And once again, he doesn't seem to understand how important a reply back, just to say goodbye, or acknowledge our work together would be to me. He thought he had me all figured out, but in fact he didn't understand me or know me at all. He just followed his own preconceived all-knowing psychological notions about how my mind operates, all while telling me constantly that he does the exact opposite of that in his counseling. What a mind fuck. I'm so confused, I guess probably angry, angry and hurt. Still. I never should have sent that officially terminating email.

(((((Beebs)))))

What you did was very courageous and I think, in some ways, necessary for your own growth. It was an important acknowledgement that you were letting go of a relationship which, although it meant so much to you, you were able to recognize was not good for you and step away from it. For people who experience childhood neglect or abuse, that is an incredibly important skill to learn. There was nothing wrong and so much right with what you did.

I'm sorry that your old T is SO clueless as to not recognize and acknowledge the significance of what you did. But his inability to comprehend or recognize it doesn't change the fact that it is a huge step forward for you. The truth is still the truth.



love, Aglet

BB,

Many hugs to you. I know this whole experience thus far for me has been one emotional roller coaster ride after another and it appears that the end still leaves you hanging on until your knuckles are white.

I think what you've done here is SO brave, and I know that the pain you are feeling at the moment is very real, and completely understandable. It's not something that I'd wish on anyone.

I do want you to know that it's been people like you who make these little strides in their therapeutic journey that really help to give me the strength and faith to forge ahead in my own therapy. So, thanks for being strong and showing me that the best decisions we make are sometimes the hardest.

BB, I hope that this message finds you doing well. I am sorry for T's lack of response. I can understand how that would feel, too. Big hugs to you today.

Love, B

((((((BB)))))) I was keeping my fingers crossed that you would hear from him. I still hope you will, but if you don't I agree with AG that it hasn't taken anything away from the positive step you have taken.

Butterfly

((((BB))))

I'm so sorry that he still has not responded to you. I'm not sure he even sounds human to me, that he can't recognize how painful it will be for you NOT to receive a response. The only possibly positive side I can see to his non-responsiveness might be that he recognizes that he wasn't helping you and to respond in any way or form might give you that little bit of hope that things could work out. And, so, in that way, he is being *kind* to you, so that you move on and find someone who can really help you.

From what you said on either this thread or another thread you posted on recently just really made it clear to me again that his views on dependency are fixed and firm and he wasn't budging. He didn't have it in him to see how he was hurting you. And he didn't know how to take you to the other side. BB, it seems to me that you need to learn that dependency is safe and not pathological. And then from there, you can learn to be independent. But GuruT made it unsafe for you.

I just paid $15.00 last night for a book written for therapists treating BPD and I'm so mad I did that. I'm not saying you have BPD, BB. But the book did talk about dependency and the fact that "these people" should only be given one session a week and blah blah blah. I just couldn't stand the fact that there doesn't seem to be any flexibility in there for individual needs. It made me so angry that these so-called experts write this shit that I wanted to write the author and tell him off. Sometimes we need to depend more than others. Sometimes life is harder than other times. Sometimes we need to learn that dependency is safe and that we're not going to get hurt by depending. GuruT didn't get that. He's not a deep thinker. He's not going to go back to the library when he gets stuck to see how he can help you. That's just not who he is.

I am sorry if my anger is showing through, BB. I've been left on the side of the road so many times in my life. I know how much it hurts to "receive" the message from another human being, and in this case an *expert*, that there is just something about you that isn't fixable or worthy. The answer is out there and the person is out there who can help you. GuruT didn't know the answer and he wasn't the person.

And, I'm sorry if he has by now emailed you back and all my ranting and raving was for nothing.

(((((AG, Broken, Butterfly and Liese)))) I'm glad if my experience can help a bit, or at least shed some light on other's situations or make someone not feel so alone.

I really appreciate the support and feedback. I'm feeling a bit back in the hole today. I suppose I had the insight, that since he wasn't helping me, and in fact I was getting worse, he must have figured that if he re-enacted stuff like neglect, or pushing me away, and I walked away, that would be the most healing thing for me. Like Ag said, about learning to walk away from abusive or neglectful situations. The thing is, is that I have no idea. I have no idea what he was "really" doing. Likely, he just didn't think about my treatment much? idk. I do not know if I did the right thing, I still don't. I don't trust my perceptions of the situation at all. I have no clue. I just..idk. I still feel it was me, that I was the problem. feel lost when I think about it, and this has brought it all back. And I want to put it back away again, like I did these past months.

Liese, Guru T told me the exact same thing...that I had to learn to depend. Then he told me that I had become too dependent, and that we had to work back towards the middle grounds. Then he started to suggest breaks when my emails increased in frequency and in confusion. He said..."I beleive I can help you" and then he said.."therapy cannot work if you are worried about what client you are." I confused him. He didn't know what to do with me. Yeah, messed up, I hide it well, and I function as best I can. I'm doing ok on meds, but they are starting to peter out, I think. I had like...mega dose, and I felt good for about a month...and now...

I just...when I depend on people, I get weird. I get really helpless, and childish. It's one or the other for me. Either I do it *all* myself, or I become completely helpless. There doesn't seem to be an in between. I will fight becoming that dependent again, until my last breath. Never again. Never again. Accepting care equals total helplessness for me. I'm done with it. But I don't really know how to have relationships that work, like..you know. I feel unfulfilled in my relationships. idk, Liese...the thing is, is that Guru T is a *very* deep thinker. idk. Maybe not. I really don't know. ugh. I appreciate your understanding...I don't think he is thinking anything, trying to spare me or anything. I think my email probably barely registered with him, he has so many clients and such a busy life, how could one little termination email from some internet client he worked with for awhile that was crazy and fell in love with him..just..mean anything except a little smile at my crazyness and perhaps a little eye roll before moving onto the next thing..arg. Sorry. I have a session with cowboy tonight. Maybe he'll be able to help me sort some of it out.

Love,

Beebs

***SG fantasizes flooding GuruT's inbox with emails from the entire Psych Cafe community in support of their dear friend Beebers***

(((((((((((((Beebs))))))))))))))

Love,
SG

((((BB))))

I second SG's motion! Just give us the word BB and we will flood his inbox so fast that he won't know what hit him. So glad you are seeing cowboyT tonight. You are probably right in that he's not thinking anything. Wish you were feeling better. Sorry he gave you such confusing messages about dependency. I'm like that too, acting childlike when I'm dependent. I know how much it hurts. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Well, maybe I would. Sometimes I do wish it on my T so that he would know what it feels like. When I was pregnant with one of my kids, I had to go for that 3 hour fasting glucose test. The one you have to sit there and drink that yucky sugary sweet stuff every so often for three hours? When my OB-GYN told me I needed the test, he said to me, I had to go for that. I know how awful it is. (Of course, he didn't have to go for it because he was pregnant! LOL!)

But wow, did I really appreciate the fact that he knew how it felt. It just made it all so much more palatable, kwim? Well, not literally, it all still made me gag ... but I truly appreciated his sympathy.

Have you talked to cowboyT about dependency? I don't really understand a lot about it myself. But I do know that I'm in a good spot with my T, though I wasn't always. We were definitely involved in an enactment - which it sounds like you were as well. But now I see him the right number times during the week and have the out of office access my psyche needs. Having things the way they are now allowed me to stop obsessing about him as much and I was able to let go (a little) and start to stick my toes back into the water.

I'm sorry you feel like you can never love again. I felt like that too and still do sometimes. I fought loving my T for a long time and am still sad that I do love him because I know it is limited. The very last thing I wanted to do was to love and lose again. But I'm hoping that over time my psyche will appreciate what he can and does give me and the loss won't actually feel so great. I'm wondering if I needed (if we all need) to receive and give love him without having to DO or BE anything to earn his love?

BB, thinking of you today and hoping cowboy T can help you sort it out. I read in an article about dependency that if the client doesn't have a secure dependency on their T, it actually prolongs the dependency and no real therapy can take place. Maybe the "experts" just don't know enough about dependency.

((((BB))))

Thanks SG!!! (((((((SG)))))) That would be very funny if you did that...I can just see him being like...what the heck is this! Thanks for the laugh. Liese, thanks for the feedback, too. I don't know if I will ever depend again, but I think I will love again. Maybe not. the love I had for my T was a very dependent kind of love, so not like true caritas, in that sense of sacrifice, I doubt- but more like the love a child has for a parent. I do care about his well-being, but that is not mine to care about, though I would love to have the duty to care for him, it is true. I suppose it was a grateful kind of love, I felt very indebted to him for teaching me what love feels like, and I longed to be able to give him something in return for what he had given to me, this ability to feel something for someone, just pure, unadulterated, and without any reason or rationale or guilt. Loving usually comes with a lot of guilt for me...this time it didn't, weirdly. When it got taken away, or he closed the door on it, somehow, in some way I didn't understand..I just..I didn't understand I guess. I was confused by the relationship, by what it was and what it wasn't. When he said he cared about me, at the beginning, and that I had to learn to depend on him and trust in his care for me, I sincerely thought that it meant that he loved me, that he had the biggest heart in the world and could love his clients and be a part of them forever, like...a surrogate parent. SO I gave him my heart in return. I just felt like he was my lost home, he was like an oak to me, and.. I wanted to build a little nest in his branches, and belong to him. He kept shaking me off. I guess I was...idk a disease carrying bird or something. I was confused. Now I understand the therapy relationship- what it is and what it isn't, and could do better with him- if I started with the knowledge I have now, that when they say things, they don't necessarily mean it literally, like..I care about you, doesn't mean that you are special and important to me and I love you...not like I thought it did. and but it is too late to do that kind of therapy with him now, so I do with Cowboy, and it is ok, good, and helpful, very. I'm very grateful to have the T I have now. His neutrality really helps me to open up to him.

I think I will love again, Liese, I do...not a T, no- but I hope to love my H in the way he needs to be loved one day. I just don't think I will depend on anyone to that complete, trusting level, ever again. I lost my heart to my Dr.. It's a crazy thing. It really is. It makes no sense. It's so...foolish. I became as foolish as a 3 year old with him. That little 3 year old...she stayed with him. Hah! Maybe that's where she belongs! Silly foolish heart. Pining after and clinging to an old man who will never love her.

Anyhow.. dependency...it is a confusing issue. Very. If possible, I think I will be leaving that pandora's box closed..

Awww BB, I'm glad you will love again. That is so hopeful. See, you are one step ahead of me because I'm not sure I can love again. What we know in our heads and what we know on an emotional level are two different things. The relationship IS confusing. We are human beings afterall. Our T's are human beings too.

Sometimes I wonder how our emotions can betray us like this? Like, how could I love my T but he not love me back? How can I trust my emotions in the future, when I think that something is happening and it isn't? I don't know, maybe that's where all the reality testing comes into play. Maybe you learn that when you start to feel like that, it's time to check in with the other person and say, "do you feel that too? Or was that just me?"

That would be great BB if we could all go through therapy successfully and not have to feel so dependent. To be able to heal without all those horrible feelings. I'm going to have to look into that.

Sometimes I feel like my psyche is just lying out there on the sidewalk, cracked open and bleeding. And everyone is just rushing by, trampling all over it, completely unaware that it's there on the ground. Sometimes I just need someone to stop and give me hand, pick me up off the ground.

It's soooo confusing....

Big hugs, BB

****triggers, talk of SI****** (and annoying massive post)

Thanks for your thoughts again, Liese. I do find myself squashing any slightly warm feelings I feel for Cowboy from time to time. I know I'm doing it, and I recognize it as a choice I am making. I will *not* go there with him. I told him that tonight- That I have no intention of developing any transference/attachment thingy for him, I am done with that. I do feel so positive towards him, and good about the way therapy is going, he really helps. But I'm not dying all week, or obsessing about him, and I feel like I'm making progress in being open with him and natural, rather than putting on an act or trying constantly to impress or please him like I did with old T. I was obsessed with making him like me, to the point where I couldn't possibly be real. I wanted to be some amazing special client, and even though I *told* him that, admitted it- he couldn't help me get past it. SO I'm really trying hard not to keep myself from excessively caring what Cowboy thinks of me, because if I start to care what he thinks of me, it will not be safe to talk to him anymore. But that is just me- I'm definitely *not* saying that I think that is the way it works for everyone.

Anyway...here is an update. Cowboy came out to get me, and..he kind of held his arm out in this really welcoming way, and put his hand on my arm. That let me know he is not disgusted or repulsed by me after what I revealed to him last session. It felt really neice to be accepted in that kind of way, that I'm not untouchable. And I continue to be amazed at how much we actually talk. We chat! and then..we talk about my stuff...and..It's like...so foreign to me, somehow. I can talk to him, and it is safe, and I keep waiting for the week to come when he is awful and mean and I shut down, but...it just never happens! I wonder sometimes how much of it is real and how much of stuff I am making up, if that makes any sense. But at any rate, I can talk about that confusing stuff to him, and he doesn't get annoyed at me, or scare me by saying that then he can't help me if I don't know the answer to a question about my feelings. He said..."Sometimes I think you really don't know." It was such a relief to be accepted for not knowing how I feel, instead of like- that is something wrong and bad, and it's your fault, *you* are doing it on purpose.. And when he challenges me, it is totally non-judgemental, it's more like teaching me about stuff. That helps so much to be able to take in what he is saying, and learn something. that's slow going though, I'm still pretty unsure, I guess. The big thing I learned from old T was on forgiveness/reconciliation themes in marriage, but it was so impossible to really implement in any lasting way.

tonight he explained to me that some people have no emotional vocabulary because their parents didn't teach them a word to associate with their emotions, so they might never be able to name their emotions. I asked him how to change it, and he said..."you have to learn how to feel." I said how do you do that, learn to feel- and I can't remember what he said. The big thing I was able to articulate to him, and it felt so good to say it, was this problem of not being able to feel normally or not put on an act all the time, but just be...I said I couldn't cry at my best friends funeral, until I started to think about how screwed up it is that I don't feel anything, and never did. So he said.. "You want to feel like a normal person." I said yes...I said see, now I can cry...and he said..."who told you you aren't normal?" He looked at me kind of sad, I thought.

I told him about old T not writing back to me so far after my termination email, and I told him I kind of felt nothing, numb. He said it would be normal to feel sad, we had a long relationship. We got into a good convo where he talked a lot about ambivalence, feeling two ways at the same time, and...that is so true, I always do. and he explained about ambivalence and what it is. Strange, that I *know* all this stuff, but somehow I also *don't* know it, too, need it explained by someone outside of me. It is good to hear, for example that I am ambivalent. I know that sounds weird. That is hardly a positive thing, but for some reason, I feel better just knowing that is how someone sees me. Like I exist... and someone understands the reality of what I deal with all the time. He said some people are ambivalent because they want to avoid failure, but he said some people can be ambivalent because they want to avoid success. I'm not sure I totally get how that works, but I'm pretty sure whichever one is more negative applies to me. haha.

anyway. So we talked about some other stuff to do with SI, and he asked me if I SI, and I said no, but...I have this fingernail biting problem. and I also talked about some other pretty bad stuff, that I said I think is SI for me in last week's session- and he brought it up again, aksed me if I remembered it, and told me that when I said I thought it was SI for me, I was really onto something there...and he said...do you know why people SI? Because they need to be able to feel...so when you do this particular thing, it is because you want to make sure you can still feel, but then, you beat yourself up for it afterwards. Wow. He said some other stuff about it too, but I lost it, sadly, I wish I could have figured it out, cause I think I needed to hear it. I even asked him to repeat, I remember, but then I got all confused and couldn't take it in.

So anyway...I guess I am just saying that I'm getting to deep stuff with him, and it does feel good to have someone to talk to about it all, but...I just don't know if it's real, or like if I'm making a big deal out of nothing, like...I had a normal, reasonably happy childhood, and I'm fine and have no issues. It is so frustrating! If for example, I feel relieved that my T considers this thing I do as form of SI...why would I feel relieved at that, unless I'm bad? That is SO weird, and it scares me that I would feel relieved, really it does! I should be devastated, or avoid that action, or ...something. I want to avoid it so much. Instead it's like I want that to be true, because then I have something to hang onto that proves I'm screwed up or something. And then maybe I can stop being screwed up. Can anybody relate to that, or am I seriously screwed up?

But it *is* good to be doing therapy- but I don't know why I like it. That is what worries me. I should hate it, right? But I feel better after. Is that ok to feel better after? We talked about some stuff, and he...remembers stuff I told him way back in our fisrt or second session! He helped me see that I don't feel normal, and arg, but it helps to at least see that I don't feel normal. This sounds crazy, sorry. Anyway. he gave me homework...I am supposed to try to figure out what exactly it is about old T that I feel for so much, what is it about him that I miss the most, what made him so special to me...we talked about transference. He said with a laugh "It doesn't sound like your buying it" about my feelings for my T just being transference. "So you come up with your own theory about what it was."

BB

ps, if you've red this far, sorry this is all over the place!

Oh I forgot to say that I told him he was "unflappable" and he said "thank you!" and...I also called old T a "jerk" at one point and he laughed, and asked me please to tell him, if I ever feel that way about him, and I said I wouldn't, cause he would kick me out of there, and he said..."not necessarily.." and that it would be better to be honest. I said but I don't think you are a jerk, which is true, but I also don't *really* think the old T is a jerk. So that was a bit confusing. I said it's gonna be fine as long as I don't talk to him about *him.* I asked him if anybody ever talks to him about him, and he said that he has had that in the past, clients with "huge transference." Then I said..."it's kind of weird that I am here because I'm pining after some old geezer across the ocean, don't you think?" and...I didn't tell him that old T is anything but definitely not an "old geezer." That's when I told him I am not planning on developing any transference for him, hahaha, probably all you psyche majors are laughing hysterically as I say that. He said "why not, is he a better looking old geezer than me?" with a twinkle, and I did have to laugh. He said, "see it is good you can laugh- that's good!" I said "I like funny stuff!" and he said.."then that's why you like to come here. cause I'm a clown...I should wear a red nose for you!" Then he walked me to the door.

ok, no more massive posts I promise! I'm gonna edit that one down!

Beebs, I LOVE reading about your sessions. I learn so much from you - your writing just flows into me. I don't care if they are long.

Beebs, don't edit down your post. It was really heartwarming to read. I can understand you being wary of developing any transference feelings for Cowboy T so as to spare the pain you have already been through. However, I think it is really positive that those warm feelings are there, albeit under the surface, and I hope that within time they will just be.

I love the relationship that you have with this T but I know it will still take time to recover from the loss of old T. It sounds like you are making huge progress

Butterfly

((((BB)))

I only have a second right now but I'm so glad you went to see Cowboy T last night and that he continues to be a calming and soothing influence for you. I like the fact that he told you he's worked with clients who developed huge transference. I took that to mean that IF it did happen between the two of you, that he is experienced and would be able to handle it and wouldn't abandon you in the middle of it all.

I have felt that disconnect feeling and it will just take time BB before you let yourself feel again. It will come back.

xoxo

Liese

((((((((((Beebs))))))))))

Hey there - get your little wing OFF the delete button!! I LOVE reading about your sessions with Cowboy T. Massive posts are fine!! No worries!! PAD, begone already!!

I love the safe space that Cowboy T is creating for you to express what you really think and who you really are. In so many ways, this reminds me of the work I did with my last T. He sounds so validating and accepting and...unflappable, like you said. There is something really reassuring about that, isn't there? Later in my therapy, I could say some of the most outrageously honest things to my T (at least, they were outrageous to me), and it didn't seem to faze her at all...except there were a few times she seemed positively delighted...told me she really enjoyed hearing my passion about things...she would smile and laugh as if to say, just look at you go, girl.

The time and space she gave me over those two years, gave me practice in being who I really was, and being accepted that way. And it made it easier to be genuine outside of sessions, too.

Thank you for sharing your sessions in such detail, Beebs. Not only because it's lovely to read in and of itself, but also because it makes me appreciate - again, and more deeply - the therapy I had with my last T.

Love,
SG

(((((SD, Butterfly, Liese and SG))))))) thank because I feel better about the massive post, and...thanks for being so nice.

Love,

BB

I did something bad. I drank and then I started to cry and couldn't stop. I kept thinking...that now that I am not paying him for his time anymore, he has thrown me away, like garbage that is not useful for him in some way anymore. When it hurt that I had to pay him so much to talk with him- he told me "you do not pay for my care, and you would have a hard time finding care like it, but you pay for my time." And now that I don't pay I don't get to hear even a "thanks for letting me know your are terminating" or something. Wow, his time must be extremely valuable a commodity in this world, or...I am just garbage or non-existent to him unless I pay. That's what it feels like. Why do I care, then? It's the same thing all over again.

But right now I don't care anymore. But I should have just left well enough alone.

Sorry to beat a dead horse.

quote:

That's when I told him I am not planning on developing any transference for him, hahaha, probably all you psyche majors are laughing hysterically as I say that. He said "why not, is he a better looking old geezer than me?" with a twinkle, and I did have to laugh. He said, "see it is good you can laugh- that's good!" I said "I like funny stuff!" and he said.."then that's why you like to come here. cause I'm a clown...I should wear a red nose for you!" Then he walked me to the door.

Oh Beebs...that is just priceless. Just so wonderful that he is so funny and he likes a good laugh. My T says therapy is hard work and if we can laugh once in awhile then that is very good. I am really loving the Cowboy!

And while I'm not laughing hysterically about yoru comment about not having transference with Cowboy I AM smiling a bit. It's not really something we can control. We may chose to deny it or suppress it but we cannot prevent it if it's going to happen. and when it's done with a competent T who does not fear it then it can be a really good thing.

I think you are in safe hands with Cowboy.

And I love love reading about your sessions and thoughts about Cowboy (i.e. YOUR T) so please don't edit the posts. The longer the better and I read every word.

I'm sorry you have not heard back from the old geezer guru. I'm not surprised though. And it has nothing to do with you but what a mean old geezer he is.

It's really late and I'm exhausted from my emotional roller coaster today and I will get back here tomorrow to comment further.

Hugs to you. You are doing great work
TN

((((((((((((((((((((Beebs)))))))))))))))))))))
I am so sorry you haven't heard back from "guru T". Sorry, but I ain't gonna capitalize that name any more or leave out the quotes. Just to make it clear that I think he's been anything BUT a guru OR a T for you.

quote:

I am just garbage or non-existent to him unless I pay. That's what it feels like. Why do I care, then? It's the same thing all over again.

You hit the nail on the head here, Beebs. You're right, it IS "the same thing all over again". This guy made you pay for the relationship in more ways than one. Not only monetarily, but personally, I think he was also expecting you to "pay" by massaging his overinflated ego. And when you (rightfully) refused to do that, by continuing to communicate how you were not being helped in this relationship, he floundered and eventually disconnected. And I think you care because this is so reminiscent of the pain of your childhood. The whole dynamic is one from your past, and it pulls you in because that little girl inside of you so desperately wants it to turn out differently this time. And it can't...it's turning out the same way...but my lovely, the healing will come when you realize (with time) that the reason it's turning out this way is due to flaws in HIM, NOT the flaws in you...and then eventually you'll be able to extrapolate that back to your past and see how it was true back then, too. And all the while, you have Cowboy T helping you on the other side, showing you how you deserve to be cared for. And us loving you here, too.

And I'm sorry if this was too strongly worded. But I'm confident in saying this because there are SO many parallels between what is happening for you, and what happened between me and my former T and my last T. If you replace you with me, "guru T" with my former T, and Cowboy T with my last T, the story is practically identical.

I'm sorry this is so painful, honey. You are doing a GREAT job. Forgive yourself for drinking, you are in so much pain, it's understandable. Keep talking to us and to Cowboy T. You will get through this, you WILL heal. You ARE healing. You ARE loveable. We love you.

Hugs,

SG

(((((Beebs))))))

SG said everything I would have said and so very eloquently that there isn't much to add. Except to repeat the plea that you be gentle and compassionate with yourself and recognize that the drinking was about handling the pain. Maybe not the best choice, but certainly an understandable one. And you are not garbage or worthless, you are a beautiful creation and very much loved by those who know you here.

love, your Aglet

Hey BB

I don't know you well - but have read a few of your posts here - and I just HAD to say a quick you are NOT garbage honeypie. SD and AG have already said the wisest stuff - so I just wanted to add a huge hug from me too. I don't know you, not even on here know you, and I can recognise what a fabulous person you are.

You sound in so much pain - it's awful - your old T sounds fairly awful - I can't understand him not replying. But am SO glad you have a lovely new one who IS fab and can help you deal with this awful pain. And please don't beat yourself up for how you handle it.

OOooh wishing you lots and lots of positive vibes sweet pea.

xx

Hello Beebs, it was really good to hear about your session with your T, and I agree with the others, please don’t think of deleting your posts, it’s great to read how things are going for you and they’re NEVER too long, it’s really good of you to share your stuff with us here on forum.

I’m sorry though that you ended up feeling so bad about the email to GuruT and that he hasn’t responded. This is probably not the best suggestion to make, but I can feel your pain and I understand very well that though your email to him was effectively a termination email, the need for SOME kind of acknowledgement was really important – so I’m wondering if you couldn’t bring yourself to send him another email openly asking for a response, for some sort of acknowledgement from him? You might not actually WANT closure with him, but being left hanging like that, feeling invisible and unimportant and wiped out as if you don’t even register in his mind is just intolerable! So ok it’s maybe not the healthiest thing to suggest, but it’s the sort of thing I would do because I would need to know one way or the other (saves trying to double guess, did he get the email or not? Is he still alive or not? All the things that come up to haunt us when things aren’t clear…)

Hope you’re hanging in there ((((((( Beebs )))))))

LL

Thank you so, so much, for your reassuring words, comforting owrds. I will be back later when kidlets are in bed to reply...

love you guys.

BB

((((((((TN, SG AG, Annie Lake- (so lovely to finally "meet" you!) and LL)))))))))) I want to reply and thank you for the helpful and supportive words.

TN yeah, it's good to have a T who just doesn't react in a personal way to my stuff. He just doesn't take things personally, and while I guess I "miss" that, it also really helps. What is weird is that, in my therapy with Guru T, I begged for a more personal relationship, because when I started, I knew nothing about therapy or the nature of the relationship- so I thought his neutrality, or...that he didn't call me to see how I was- meant he just didn't like me, or whatever. I find it odd that in some respects, I think he "gave in to me" by letting me know what he thought of me- I mean, non-responsiveness is a way of letting a person know that you don't matter, right? maybe that was the only way I could learn that what I was initially begging him for would in the end be harmful to me. Like- I guess he let me know how he really felt -as a man, not a therapist- about me. Knowing how he felt about me- it wasn't a positive experience, and maybe that's the source of the pain. I guess I assumed that Dr. ****, the man, had positive thoughts or feelings about me. And you know what they say about those who assume. I still think he should have protected me from the knowledge, no matter how much I asked to "know." Curiosity killed the cat, I suppose. Only problem is that, teaching a cat that lesson kills the cat, so what's the point? He really validated my transferential I guess existential issues by the total non-response/ unavailability thing. It feels very much like I *really am* too much, and do not deserve to exist because of being a sucking vacuum of need.

SG I guess I never really used the word "Guru" for my T in the positive sense that most people mean the word in. I guess I meant it in a sort of delf-deprecating way, in that I made him my all, and having that "groupie mentality" can be ultimately very destructive on the personal level, in terms of the decisions one makes. I became so confused by my contact with him. You know if I had just taken meds when I was with him, I probably could have worked with him very effectively, since my mental processes seem to be clearing out a bit- I don't think he really understood how little I understood of what he said to me. Anyway. Yeah I see a lot of parallels in what you went through with your old T too.I have a taste of what you went through, and I'm hoping to be able to move on from this at some point. Cowboy T is great, and it does remind me of your descriptions of how your T worked with you. There is just no "come hither" about Cowboy.

Ag, thank you for being kind about the drinking episode. It's the second time I had a major lapse since leaving, and I am able to kind of "leave it" for the simple reason that I know I'll go back to drinking if I start with the self-recrimination about the lapse.

(((Annie Lake)) it is lovely to finally meet you- I've read a few of your posts here and there, and your words offered me a lot of comfort. ((((((Hugs and a big welcome to you)))))

LL:

quote:

You might not actually WANT closure with him, but being left hanging like that, feeling invisible and unimportant and wiped out as if you don’t even register in his mind is just intolerable!

Thank you for hearing me so well...I wonder if it does feel like a kind of annihilation. I did find my identity in him, and it was a powerfully intoxicating experience, and an ultimately destructive one, I suppose, even though it felt *so* right. I wish I had listened to the doubts I had, but I sincerely thought that *this* was the pain that I was supposed to go through and that would ultimately heal me. After all it is what "my guru " specifically told me to do. To trust him. I thought of that idea, of actually writing back again and saying..."what's the deal?" But I can't make up my mind about that. Part of me feels like...I don't exist, so who the fuck cares about if I am pathetic and beg for a response one more time, like I used to do (at his invitation- maybe he liked me to beg for attention?) -another part of me feels like- it would hurt more, because...if he isn't responding to my termination letter, and it is not just some mistake- then he won't respond to a second request either. If he thinks anything at all about me, which I really doubt- then he thinks I'm a raving idiot. I am clearly dismissed.

(((BB)))

SG said what I would like to say as well and did such a good job that I won't rehash.

I just wanted to say that you are not garbage. His lack of response to you is about HIM and not a reflection of you. I know that it hurts to not receive a response from him, but in some ways (this may not fit for you) having written him the letter and sent it and not getting any response is closure in a way. It puts a fine point on his failings and leaves no doubt that you did the right thing in taking care of yourself and getting out of that relationship. If he responded to you and perhaps was back to being the "good T" as he could be sometimes then perhaps that would cause you to second guess yourself more?? I may be totally off here so if I am then please toss it out the window! Also (this is not in defense of guru T) it is possible that he is out of town, on vacation or has otherwise been unable to respond to emails so it may be a case of just taking a little longer than usual. Probably not, but it's possible.

As far as the drinking, that was one point in time and it doesn't define you and doesn't condemn you to falling back into that coping mechanism all of the time. It's okay to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move forward and make a different choice next time. It's hard to learn all of these new skills and use them 100% of the time, but the important thing is that you are working on it and you are making damn good progress!!

I'm so thankful that you have Cowboy T to help you through all of this and that he is so steady. You deserve good things BB.